Osama Bin Laden: dead

I like facts.

Just because someone shares a last name doesn't mean they're cut from the same cloth. Osama himself thought some of his family members corrupt, so I doubt all estimated 600 of them were complicit in his evil.

In fact, according to the final report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (the 9/11 Commission), the bin Laden flight was on Sept. 20. (See footnote 28 in the 9/11 Commission's report in "supporting documents" at right). That was one week after the FAA allowed commercial air traffic to resume at 11am on Sept. 13.http://www.factcheck.org/article294.html

American and European intelligence officials estimate that all the relatives of the family may number as many as 600. In 1994, the bin Laden family disowned Osama and the Saudi government revoked his passport.[3] The Saudi government also stripped Osama bin Laden of his citizenship,[3] for publicly speaking out against them, after they permitted U.S. troops to be based in Saudi Arabia in preparation for the 1991 Gulf War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Lad...ote-histchan-2

After the Soviet withdrawal in 1989, bin Laden returned home as a hero, but he was quickly disappointed with what he perceived as the corruption of the Saudi government and of his own family.
http://www.history.com/topics/osama-bin-laden

MEMBERS of Osama bin Laden's family are ready to provide samples of DNA to help American investigators establish whether the terrorist leader has been killed.

At least some of bin Laden's 50 siblings on his father's side would not object to such a request, The Telegraph has learnt, if only to clarify the status of their brother.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ed-by-CIA.html

I lived 20 blocks from WTC, and I watched firefighter funeral processions every day for too many days, which left me sobbing on the street as they passed, with the trucks draped in purple and black. These were heroes. These were people who ran into falling buildings. I just feel the need to point out the contrast between them and Bin Laden, who died using his wife as a human shield. Coward.

I feel no need to celebrate, but I hope this begins a new era of peace.

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Originally Posted by Muirenn

I do think the people in New York and DC must view it differently than someone who didn't experience it so intimately.

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...and I would not begrudge them one bit for feeling happiness. The victims of crime deserve the happiness they get from the execution of justice.

I'm intrigued that:

• Osama's own son has condemned the attacks of al-Queda against civilians. I believe he said "do want you want against the soldiers, but leave the innocent alone"
• the cleric's are criticizing the burial at sea (a grey area) and not applauding the efforts - ABOVE AND BEYOND - to provide a burial consistent with Muslim custom. How many families from WTC and Pentagon would have liked to have any burial at all! or, what about the body of the airman dragged through the street naked when his plane was shot down...

I think I saw that 3-4K people were "dancing in the streets" on the Boston Common last night. It looked mainly to be students, who were happy to be distracted from studying for finals...
Two of those planes left from Boston. Someone from my synagogue was on one of them. The "heroic" flight attendant lived in my town. But, I still can't condone the partying that has gone on. It just feels wrong.
I feel pretty proud of the work my son does right now.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

The cheering and honking went on a long time, I think. It's not something I would do, but I can understand why people feel the need for an emotional outpouring. They even had the bagpipers down there.

I don't like the carnival-like atmosphere that develops on the 9/11 anniversaries, either, but it's not about me and it's a very trivial problem in the great scheme of things.

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To our TE friends from the States and places where the effects of the horror of September 11, 2001 was felt deeper than to the average citizen, you have seen the promise that was made to bring the perpertrator to justice fulfilled. This in itself sends a strong message, that we will fullfill our duty to protect our citizens, no matter who the commander in chief is. The President who made this promise and the President who fullfilled it are to be commended for their duty to the protect their citizens.

The country who harbored him is also complicit in the matter. We give billions to Pakistan, we might want to rethink that now that there is proof that he was living there. His crimes were not only against US citizens, they were crimes against humanity as evidenced by those who stand shoulder to shoulder with us in this fight. A big thanks to those countries who stand up against terrorists. Bullies don't care who the target is, they just live to bully. And now this guy won't do that anymore.

I'm sure there are many mixed emotions, and while I might not have reacted the way they did (the celebrating/dancing/rejoicing), I can understand the high level of emotions associated with those most intimately involved.

It's not on the same scale, but I live in OKC and went through the trauma of the Murrah Federal Building bombing in 1995. When Tim McVeigh was put to death the city felt a certain sense of finalization. We didn't rejoice publicly, but you could tell there was a sense of "it's finally over."

I don't think this is over (with the terrorists), but I can understand how those affected most intimately by bin Laden feel happiness and relief at his death.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Bloom

I do not regret his death, this is an outcome of war...I simply will not celebrate it. Gladness over a victory in battle is fair, but celebration is reserved for the end of the war.

“I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” Martin Luther King, Jr

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That sums it up perfectly. A very appropriate quotation.

There is something going on at the fire house nearest WTC tonight -- FDNY in dress uniforms and the bagpipers in formal procession. So many tourists I got off my bike and walked. Perhaps it is an event that just happened to be today.

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Originally Posted by Grog

Thank you for writing this. I am concerned that such celebrations can only fuel more hate. I can certainly understand that many will feel a sense of relief, but for me this spells uncertainty and factions competing for leadership, not an happily-ever-after ending.

May we all live in peace.

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I need a "like" button for these statements.

If anyone is interested in local WTC reaction, our neighborhood newspaper did a good job. There is nothing profound or surprising.

You will notice mention of people who are still suffering and dying from exposure to dust/toxins while working at the site; I don't know how well that story is getting out, but we are very aware of it locally.

It turns out that quote I posted was misattributed, but for me the sentiment is the same.

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/t...te_osama_death

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Originally Posted by PamNY

If anyone is interested in local WTC reaction, our neighborhood newspaper did a good job. There is nothing profound or surprising.

You will notice mention of people who are still suffering and dying from exposure to dust/toxins while working at the site; I don't know how well that story is getting out, but we are very aware of it locally.

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Thank you for posting that link, it was very moving to read first hand stories from those who were impacted the most. No matter that the rest of the USA and others worldwide grieved over this, it's the people of NY who took it in the chops that day in a way that others just cannot comprehend.

I'm glad I'm not the only one surprised he wasn't captured for interrogation, trial, and moreover so the world could get a look at the man in custody and see him charged with his crimes against humanity as Saddam was and then shot, boiled alive, hung by his toenails or fed to rabid hamsters.

Saddam was found in a spider hole, haggard and used-up. Bin Laden? The report given says that he appeared well fed in a $1mil villa rather close to Pakistan's version of West Point. The guy was supposedly having weekly dialysis for renal failure But I guess if no autopsy was done we'll never know if that was true. He wasn't exceedingly mobile, and this after rumors went around that as of 2009 he was likely dead for 7 years post renal collapse. See here

The attack- Navy SEALs bust into the compound the US knew about since last August and not only head shoot him, but also kill everyone else in the room, though there are no US casualties, and then the body is rapidly disposed of at sea before the American public even knows the guy is dead. I would have thought they'd keep his body for autopsy or maybe to tick his head on a pike?

So really when it comes down to it is "He's gone, halleleuja, we did it, no you can't see the body, and there are no surviving witnesses but our men, but we're telling you it's true."

Maybe I'm still shell shocked after the Bush presidency, but doesn't any of that seem just a little fishy to anyone?

Just posting as an alternative way to think on this. I don't know that this will change anything because the man has gotten exactly what would be the best-case senario for his death- a violent slaying at the hands of the devil Americans. What better cause for his people to rally around?

I know revenge is a dish best served cold, and the people most affected by 9/11 may feel some peace, but this is not over. Our family members, husbands, brothers, and friends will still be deployed to the middle east to 'keep the peace'... whatever that means these days.

This is a good blog post from a man who until recently was a personal tech columnist for the Washinton Post.

http://robpegoraro.com/2011/05/03/911-to-51/

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Originally Posted by Crankin

I feel pretty proud of the work my son does right now.

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You should be proud. Let us know if he ever needs care packages.

Living through 9/11 gave me new appreciation for what military people must go through when they return to normal life after going to war. What I went through was a minuscule fraction of what they endure, but I have learned that some of it stays with you forever.

I am not a flag saluting yahoo, but I hate to tell you that the citizens of any country, I mean democratic country, do not know everything the government is doing. I don't mean this in a bad way, but there is always going to be intelligence/counter-intelligence and things going on that even some in the government don't know about. It is their job to do this. It is a little hard for me to believe that some are doubting that bin Laden is really dead. I believe they have DNA evidence, but don't quote me on that. But this doubting reminds me a little bit of the "birthers." I think it's good to question, but something just doesn't sit well with me. Like I said, earlier, there is evil in the world.
Yes, people will still be going off to war. Some people actually want to join the military and they are well aware of what could happen. I know that everyone here is supportive of the people in the military, but if I've learned anything from my experience with my son, it's that the military is a career choice for some and for others it's a lifeline compared to where they came from. It is very hard for others to understand that. Like anything else, we only hear about the bad things.
Pam, no care packages are needed. Scott will back in San Diego on May 10. He's married, so he gets his homecoming with his wife and then we are going out there on the 25th. He has not wanted for anything during his deployments; we had regular satellite phone communication and email this time. When he was in Iraq, he had Skype. The only thing he ever asked for were ice pops for his men in July (you know those horrid sugary things in plastic, that you can freeze), and more Smart Wool socks for himself this winter. So, the wool weenie thread had an influence! He and his wife seem absolutely normal and able to handle the stress of 7 months of separation. Of course, she was a Marine, too. I don't see any signs of PTSD in him, and any weirdness he has, was there before he was deployed or even in the military! He is smart, kind and tough as nails at the same time. The things that made him a good bike racer are the same things that have helped him in the Marines.

I don't watch tv. I heard about it from my Mom on the phone yesterday as I was heading into work early. She said we had some military guys show up in helicopters, go in and shoot him in the head and then threw him in the ocean. I actually argued with my Mom the whole way to work. They threw him in the ocean???!! I told her that just wouldn't be true at all. She told me Obama himself made the announcement and that the details were still being released by the WH. I told her that if they did indeed do that, court marshals would be forthcoming and all hell would break loose at the top. She said the order came from the top. I said that if we did it that way, we have just made bin Laden the martyr he always wanted to be. That's not a good thing. :(

I eventually got a chance to go online during a break, look a few things up and lo and behold, that's what we did alright. Well, color me shocked. It's the absolute last thing I thought we would do in this situation. I'm actually ashamed of us a bit. I have no problem with going in there, trying to get him, having to kill him if necessary but then dumping him in the ocean? WTF is that all about? Who exactly thought that could be a good idea? I heard the explanations and I tell you this, had this happened to our VP or Pres, we would have gone off the deep end. It's just wrong, people. We don't operate like that here. At least, I had hoped we didn't. I heard their explanations on why they did it and I'm still not okay with it. I was full of mixed feelings last night. I got home from work at midnight and sat up till 4 am reading, trying to comprehend, watching videos of US citizens dancing in the streets. When did we become that which we hate so much in others?

How did these "bad guys" get to have so much power in the first place that we ended up in this situation anyway? Oh wait...

I hope this goes in a positive direction. We can help facilitate that across the globe by how we react and how we go forth... what we chose as our lesson and future.

Jon Stewart sums it up so well for me...

"I am way too close to this whole episode to be rational about this in any way, shape or form," he said. "Last night was a good night, for me, and not just for New York or D.C. or America, but for human people. The face of the Arab world in America's eyes for too long has been bin Laden, and now it is not. Now the face is only the young people in Egypt and Tunisia and all the Middle Eastern countries around the world where freedom rises up. Al Qaeda's opportunity is gone."

That is where I chose to direct my thoughts as well. :)

Crankin, I too am surprised at the skepticism over bin Laden's death.

Yes, I know what the ice pops are -- I sent a few packages to Iraq in the past. I shipped several food items that I would personally call "horrid."

I think the government has adequate proof that they got the right guy. It would be highly embarrassing if it came out later that they didn't. Why make a press statement at all if they weren't sure?

I personally don't feel a need to see the evidence. I think releasing photos of a body would just throw fuel on the fire of those who hate us, so I don't think making the photos public serves any purpose. Let the evidence be preserved for historians to examine far, far into the future.

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Originally Posted by Kitsune06

So really when it comes down to it is "He's gone, halleleuja, we did it, no you can't see the body, and there are no surviving witnesses but our men, but we're telling you it's true."

Maybe I'm still shell shocked after the Bush presidency, but doesn't any of that seem just a little fishy to anyone?

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I hear ya', but if he were captured alive, I could see mass reprisals geared to gain his release... Or kidnappings for which OBL would be the ransom. Not a good outcome.

If he were alive, don't you think that there would be some benefit from al-Q saying "nah, nah...you got the wrong guy". Instead, they referred to him as a "martyr". Why would they want to allow him to suffer a "false death" since it would neutralize him for the cause...plus, if we didn't find him, that would mean that he was still successfully hidden somewhere else making us look that much more foolish. Pakistan also would have a vested interest in highlighting our error since we violated their sovereignty in the attack and making them look very two faced and foolish.

We've gone from "birthers" last week, to "deathers" this week. I, for one, have no reason to believe he wasn't killed, even if I don't see any pictures, videos, etc.

AND, if he in fact used his wife as a "human shield" during the action, I think it proves that he is just like the guy we found in a hole...

Oh, and even if the government were to release photos, copies of DNA tests, there would probably still be people who would claim it was fake. You just can't win sometimes.

Just so you don't keep picking at this one for the rest of the thread... Kit never said she didn't believe he was dead or the account of it. She just poked you to question it a bit for yourself. It is fishy. When you first heard how it all went down, didn't you just sit there for a moment and say to yourself... "What?" Never stop doing that on issues as important as this. :) We tend to wander off to the next story or angle too quickly...

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Originally Posted by Xrayted

When you first heard how it all went down, didn't you just sit there for a moment and say to yourself... "What?"

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Nope. I thought: "Shot in the head? Good." And "Buried at sea? Good, no grave to turn into a shrine."

Really? That quick you thought about not having a shrine to him? Way faster than me, I guess. It took me about 10 minutes in my own thoughts to come up with that scenario. Still, I don't see why we afforded him that kind of honor.

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Originally Posted by Xrayted

When you first heard how it all went down, didn't you just sit there for a moment and say to yourself... "What?" Never stop doing that on issues as important as this. :) We tend to wander off to the next story or angle too quickly...

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Of course. I totally agree with you that a healthy dose of skepticism is always important. But there's a healthy dose vs. an over-dose, and I don't mean you or Kitsune because I think you've both done a great job of putting your comments in context.

There are people who will doubt no matter what evidence you put in front of them, and there will always be conspiracy theories.

I'm just of the opinion that terrorists really don't care to give us the time or space to verify for ourselves something that they probably already know. We're all free to believe what we want and trust who we will. OBL's followers are already moving on to figure out the next way that they can hurt us.

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Originally Posted by NbyNW

Oh, and even if the government were to release photos, copies of DNA tests, there would probably still be people who would claim it was fake. You just can't win sometimes.

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...and creating new conspiracy theories about all of it. I think I'll go get my tin foil hat now.

Now the WH press secretary guy just came on and gave a more detailed description of what happened at the compound.

He wasn't armed?? :confused:

Tin foil undies would be good too. :D

JMO...but who cares if he was unarmed or standing there with guns a blazing??? The man was evil to the core and I don't think for one second that our military had any intentions of taking him out of there alive.

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Originally Posted by Xrayted

Tin foil undies would be good too. :D

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Nah, you're supposed to line the floor of your trailer with tin foil so nobody can tap your phone line. ;) :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Xrayted

Really? That quick you thought about not having a shrine to him? Way faster than me, I guess. It took me about 10 minutes in my own thoughts to come up with that scenario. Still, I don't see why we afforded him that kind of honor.

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I wouldn't call it an honor. An honor would be giving his body over to his family (if they even want him) or followers and a cleric of his choosing. I think the burial at sea was more like taking the high road or not crossing a line. Because too many lines have been crossed by both sides already. And not throwing more fuel on an already out of control fire.

Oh, and here's a more-eloquent-than-mine piece on why not to release the photos.

Oh, no, I'm sure we probably did get him, I mean if the RIAA can find people illegally downloading music all over the country and Corbin Fisher can seek out teens illegally downloading gay pr0n, then I would hope that in ten years we can find a man in a desert with 2 million troops deployed. I'm just saying it's odd that we didn't really gloat in it. We didn't take him and keep him in some dark little hole like Guantanimo and just say he died on-site. We didn't take him into custody and interrogate him until we knew everything about Al-Quaida's workings and then snuff him. We didn't parade him around. That's almost unAmerican for a country and culture that thrives on sensationalism and media fervor. You can spin our reasons for it however you want to. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and if you work hard enough to find a good reason not to have some kind of evidence, you will probably find or create one.

I'm just saying that if someone told you something that seemed off, would you believe it without thinking, or would you want some form of proof to put it in context? Anything with this much meaning, symbolism and potential concequence deserves to be ruminated on instead of taken at face value.

I'm not going off on how the government collected kids' baby teeth to test for strontium-90 post nuclear testing, or how we tested the effects of radiation on pregnant women, or how downwinders in Utah and Nevada are still suffering from the effects of nuclear fallout even though the US government said it was completely safe. Yes there is a specific theme to those, these are studies we've learned about in our radiation biology class, but there are many other tests on US civillians that the government has not told us about. Forgive my relative paranoia, but after reading these, it's hard not to feel that way.

I am just saying that we need to be aware that we are not always told the truth in this world, and the important things are worth questioning. Or not. Feel free.

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Originally Posted by ny biker

Nope. I thought: "Shot in the head? Good." And "Buried at sea? Good, no grave to turn into a shrine."

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+1. Neat, tidy, done!

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Originally Posted by Xrayted

Really? That quick you thought about not having a shrine to him? Way faster than me, I guess. It took me about 10 minutes in my own thoughts to come up with that scenario. Still, I don't see why we afforded him that kind of honor.

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Nowhere have I read that he was "Buried at sea with honor". More likely, dumped in the ocean. Where does is it written that if someone is buried at sea that it automatically infers a burial with honor...???

The not leaving a place for a shrine thing is a really big deal. DH and I were discussing that when the news first broke. I did read that the body was prepared according to religious guidelines, no need to fan the flames by disregarding that part of it.

From ABC:Officials said that, in accordance with Muslim law, bin Laden's burial at sea was conducted by a Muslim seaman, who recited the prayers and ensured that the body was washed and wrapped appropriately in cloth.

from the Lede Blog

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Following the firefight, the noncombatants were moved to a safe location as the damaged helicopter was detonated. The team departed the scene via helicopter to the U.S.S. Carl Vinson in the north Arabian Sea. Aboard the U.S.S. Carl Vinson, the burial of Bin Laden was done in accordance with Islamic precepts and practices. The deceased's body was washed and then placed in a white sheet. The body was placed in a weighted bag. A military officer read prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. After the words were complete, the body was placed on prepared flat board, tipped up, and the deceased body eased into the sea.

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Originally Posted by Kitsune06

Anything with this much meaning, symbolism and potential concequence deserves to be ruminated on instead of taken at face value.

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I believe everything I am told, unquestioningly and at face value. Anything less would be unpatriotic! I'm a good American. Double-plus good!

(extra credit for those of you who took English 101, or just bought the Eurythmics album... even if only for the great pictures of Annie Lennox in fatigues)

Seriously, though, let's take a moment to think about this event and all its repercussions.

(one of my immediate thoughts was for my ex-brother-in-law, who is a Navy seal and is the first line guy who rappels from the helicopter)

Our animal instinct is to hoot and holler and celebrate like chimps after killing a monkey. Once we have that vented or controlled, it is our responsibility as adult humans to ponder the event and pray.

What would Jesus do?

Would He dance in the streets? Would He shout "In your FACE" and drop His pants to moon a photograph?

Or would He realize this was a painful thing, the Right to Life was taken from one of God's children, and we should solemnly shoulder the collective responsibility for what we have done, regardless?

One of my immediate thoughts was for my brother-in-law, who is one of the many volunteer firemen on Long Island who went into the city on 9/11. When he left, my sister thought she'd never see him again.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

Nowhere have I read that he was "Buried at sea with honor". More likely, dumped in the ocean. Where does is it written that if someone is buried at sea that it automatically infers a burial with honor...???

The not leaving a place for a shrine thing is a really big deal. DH and I were discussing that when the news first broke. I did read that the body was prepared according to religious guidelines, no need to fan the flames by disregarding that part of it.

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Actually, it's written in the Naval Military Funerals Book... NORMALLY, you can't be buried at sea off of one of our Naval Vessels unless you are in this list. Period.

AT SEA DISPOSITION
ART. 2-1. Eligibility. The regulations for the disposition of remains and inurned cremated remains (cremains) from a naval vessel, or inurned cremains
from a naval aircraft are set forth by the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery.
The following persons are eligible for at sea disposition:
1. Members of the uniformed services.
2. Retired members of the uniformed services.
3. Former members of the uniformed services honorably discharged.
4. U.S. Civilian Marine Personnel of the Military Sealift Command.
5. Dependents of members and dependents of former members of the uniformed services.
6. Other U.S. citizens who are determined eligible by notable service or outstanding contributions to the United States.



Since it seems I have to spell it out... he deserved no washing, no prayers in his native language, no 72 virgins, nothing. He got what an honored American would have gotten for a sea burial, all except (I assume) the salute, symbolic firing of rifles and the US flag draped over him until slid overboard. He most likely would have been put on the same board as an honored American (I'm assuming here that they didn't take the time to whittle a new one just for him), feet end hanging off the edge, tipped up and slid into the sea. Usually 3 bearers on each side securing the body while at rest and in motion. He got much better than he deserved and more than most Americans could have, even if they fill out the 3 million forms necessary. In triplicate, single spaced. That, ladies and gentleman, was an honor he didn't deserve. Getting shot quickly in the head, not part by part, lingering in his pain and fear over days and weeks... our troops showed him mercy. He didn't deserve it, not one iota. But he got it. I'm happy he's dead.

I still remember that morning in PA, waking up to the news broadcast showing the planes hitting the towers, the Pentagon and then finding out just 150 miles away in my state, flight 93 crashed. I remember knowing that family members were supposed to be in the towers that morning, up on the top, having a breakfast meeting for business. Their 2 year old daughter, back with my SIL, quietly playing. We wrung our hands all day, trying to get word of whether or not they were still alive, wondering how in the world we were ever going to be able to explain to that beautiful little girl what happened to her parents. Luckily, they ended up delaying the meeting with the airline reps until lunch and had not stepped foot in the towers that day. I remember smelling the slightly ashy, burnt air for days after as it floated down the east coast to our area. It's been imprinted, like a bad tattoo. I know that area flight 93 went down in. I had visited there as a teen and adult. I know that of those few brave men that banded together, stood up and risked it all on that plane, one of them was, in this country, considered a 2nd class citizen because he was gay. None of them got a proper burial, not religious nor clean. I remember praying for all those who were directly affected and sending care packages to my fellow EMT's, Medics and firefighters. Wanting to be able to help more directly but unable to. I believe bin Laden's "tidy" death and burial was an honor he didn't deserve. Plain and simple. For us to do that, to bestow any compassion or kindness upon him after what he did, shows how incredible our country and our benevolent way of life truly is. That doesn't mean I have to always like it.


Meanwhile back on the ranch, people danced in the streets and had a party or two. The dichotomy was deafening.

I'm not disputing your perspective xray, but "everything is permissible, not everything is constructive".

It's sometimes better to do something that is nice but not necessary than it is to just do what's necessary.

Yeah, the partying in the streets was a bit odd. But that public expression of emotion does not necessarily reflect the feelings of all Americans. My guess is that plenty of people have NOT felt like celebrating, since this does not bring their loved ones back. For me personally it was a moment to reflect on the last 10 years and what may be ahead. Because only time will tell if this changes anything.

Oh and X, regardless of what our military did with bin Laden's body, I'm pretty sure he's going to a special place in hell and there will be no virgins to greet him.