Hmmm....would people criticize Silver the same way if it had been she who initiated this thread instead of Mr. Silver? I suspect not, but it's something to think about.
Printable View
Hmmm....would people criticize Silver the same way if it had been she who initiated this thread instead of Mr. Silver? I suspect not, but it's something to think about.
Jumping in here.
Silvers, I understand not wanting your parents to spend their last days in a nursing home. I had that struggle as well, for different reasons. I finally placed my mother because caring for her was killing me. Nursing facilities are all different, take time to find one that suits them best. A good facility will not allow your parents to sit around all day watching TV and bemoaning what's wrong with the world. My mother was very active, participating in nearly all the activities available to her, in spite of declining health. And............this may sound cold, it is a natural consequence to choosing to continue on the path of alcoholism. I am a recovering alcoholic.........I would have said or done anything while drinking to get others off my back. Mr. your mother's empty promises may be nothing more, but it's possible she wants to stop, but can't. I would get her help, if she takes it great, if not she has made the choices. The only option I see to protecting them (and you)from themselves if they won't stop drinking is long term care. So what if it takes all their money, so be it. Remember it was their choice to get to this point.
I might add I stopped drinking through AA. No one intervened, no treatment, just sick and tired of the life I was living.
And back to the original topic... here are some thoughts I have no investment in so toss 'em if you like. Could part of this be as simple as after two drinks go down the rest taste better and better... not because of deep-rooted psychological issues but physiology? I say this because an elderly biking buddy said he has given up drinking because after one, he wants two and three and four... and this has been a physiological change. (I don't know if there are other issues like meds involve or not.)
She seems to recognize that there *is* a problem with drinking too much... would she grasp that she needs to figure out a way to deal with the apparent fact that once she starts, she doesn't stop? FInd creative ways to keep the quantity down (like "you gotta drink two glasses of seltzer water for every drink")?
Again, not any kind of expert here but tossing in the "options if other ones aren't working" ideas.
It's not clear who the "control" and "attention seeking" comments are talkin' about... but mayhbe that's how it was meant.
Actually, the initial post involves more issues than a parents alcoholism. I don't think Raleighdon was criticizing, simply stating facts, one of which is that this is a parent-child issue as well as an addiction issue.
It may be difficult but I do think it's something to consider. Tough Love.
Good point, Lisa. Most likely they wouldn't. Everyone has a different personality and that usually comes through in what's written here. I am not involved in any other on line forum; I do bike journal just to track my miles, but I am seriously considering not rejoining because I am not sure how much I will be able to ride next year and I get obsessive about it anyways. But back to the point you made; our society expects women to seek advice, but not men. My husband stayed home with our first son when he was born in 1982, for the first eight months. He was totally comfortable with that role, even though it was very unusual back then. He never felt weird taking the kids to daycare or hanging around and talking to the other moms there. I am sure some might have thought he had other motives or was trying to meet some need because of a "problem," but it just wasn't the case.
It is ah, usually pretty obvious when someone on the forum is having real psychological issues and I don't think Mr. Silver is one of them. Sure, the situation does require help from professionals, but he is just asking for advice here.
Yes. I think that was RD's intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by zencentury
I think Mr. Silver is here because he likes to be here and he is courteous and inciteful and I appreciate his candor. I think it also shows that he cares for Silver and is interested in what she does and is part of. More men could learn from that.
Now, back to the topic. Silvers, I greatly appreciate your problems with the parents. Mine are alcoholics also. My brother in law (who never says anything bad about anyone) says they are "CRAZY", and of course, he is right. They act crazy cause they are addicts and have lived their lives around alcohol instead of dedicating their time to something good and productive.
My parents are also in the 80s (dad is 89). They still live by themselves in Tucson now, but who knows how much longer this will be able to last. They drink every late-afternoon/night and get snockered almost every night. It is a very sad thing. It not only affects their brains, it affects their moods, and their health. Mom has always been on depression medication and still drinks?:eek: Dad had one kidney removed from cancer about 10 years ago, kept drinking, has severe prostate problems, and his other kidney is compromised and works only minimally.:eek:
My sister and I have talked to them about not drinking so much, but it is useless. Especially after Dad's kidney was removed. We cannot control them. We do the best to have a loving relationship with them; but sometimes it is very tough. I understand your struggle - you want to do something, but it is very difficult and almost impossible to control the situation. You just have to realize that you have done the best you can and go forward with your own lives and make good role models for your own children and those around you. IT IS SO DANG FRUSTRATING - but sometimes these are the cards you are dealt!
Hang in there - it probably doesn't get better, but I wish you well in dealing with these issues.
spoke
I've often wondered why a man would spend so much of his energy surrounding himself with women in a site like Team Estrogen, and Mimitabby shares posts with me sometimes, seeking my thoughts on various issues. It astounds me that a purported well educated and balanced man would come to a women's bicycling group about his mom and dad's alcoholism.[/QUOTE]
This is kind of offensive on a couple of different levels:
1) Maybe Mr. Silver just needs a place to unload. This has historically been a non-critical, non-judgemental group. That is often hard to come by these days. OK, a few divas and kooks have come by every now and then, but on the whole, people here are respectful and courteous. Making judgements about a single participant based on a few comments seems rude and inappropriate.
2)Mercy, a man asking women for advice. What is this world coming to!!! Like women have no value to add to discussion with a man because of their gender. Sorry, I'm not buying into that. It seems like there are some really wise people participating on this board and from some of the replies to this thread, others have gone down this road also.
I don't have any experience with alchoholism, but we all have problems to work through and my thoughts are with the Silvers as they deal with this issue.
To my knowledge, alcoholism doesn't exist in our family...just hope the nephews and nieces don't fall down a hole here.
I really do mean this genuinely.....this may sound wierd but some of my family members can only hold 1 glass of wine or less, before getting red. And for me, it's only 1/2 glass of wine. I understand for some Asians, they may have a particular enzyme that does not breakdown alcohol "efficiently". I guess this is a blessing in disguise.
I do remember as a child, my mother expressing concern that my father not fall into any drinking when his boss was a happy beer, Scotch and whiskey drinker. His boss died about 8 yrs. ago from a failed liver.
And if something did go wrong....I am certain they would listen to my sister, who is a physician....they have been taking her medical advice for past decade so far.
I feel for the Silvers and their problems with elders having alcolholism.
I've known many addicts who are amazing people; world renowned artists, activists and community leaders, people who raise millions for charity, or just good people hard working parents and workers and such ... addicts all and effecting their families and others.
Most of these people are now in recovery and while that's hard to do they are happier for it.
I've read somewhere that each addict adversely the life of up to 5 people .
Raleighdon:
1) Thank you for your insightful thoughts in three of your paragraphs. As I understand from Mimi's earlier post, you have direct professional experience that gives credibility to your input (as to the matter of dealing with alcoholics;)). When I ask someone what they think, it's my hope that they'll tell me what they think, not what I want them to say. Your feedback is thought provoking and that's useful.
2) As to your somewhat personal attack on me:
- You're welcome to criticize me, my motives, my shortcomings, etc.
- But in all honesty, I'd encourage you to 'earn qualification' to do so by interacting with me directly first. Say the word, and I'll PM you my phone # and email address;) - Then you can analyze me thoroughly :) My life's an open book and is anything but perfect...but you can rest assured that "pity" is not a phrase in my vocabulary. I count my blessings everyday.
- Don't criticize me because we see things differently. I may not hang out in macho places like you, but rest assured I'm very happy with who I am:cool:
In business, I dive in head first and confront challenges that don't have evident answers. But, personal matters are not so easy. In reality, there is no single 'right' response. That's where a forum like this is helpful...and this happens to be a very experienced, diverse, and intelligent group where, in 24 hours, I received feedback and encouragement from a culturally and geographically diverse group of people to challenge and guide me.
So, why do I dive in here before diving into the "community services available"? Well, unlike you, we live in a small city...as a matter of fact, I was the board president of a remarkable organization that is THE BEST "community service available" in this area...but it's not suited for this this situation...so I know the local options are limited.
Thanks for your thoughts. My offer of my #/email address is sincere - not for confrontation, but if you have insight into a problem that I don't see, then I'm all ears :D
Have a Happy New Year!
Lisa, the response would have been the same except for the specific paragraph referring to men on women's boards. Raleighdon posted (after I mentioned the Alcohol situation) out of a genuine response to wanting to help with the pain and suffering that we have both seen so many times that is caused by the Disease of Alcoholism. My response here is late because we were out in the sticks at a New Year's Eve party, where ironically, one of raleighdon's best riding buddies had a drunken meltdown in the middle of the best restaurant in the town we were in, terrifying and embarrassing all of us. We drove home from there sadQuote:
Originally Posted by Lisa S.H.
about yet another FAMILY whose life was being destroyed by the disease.
On any other board I would have awakened on this new day to hundreds of incendiary posts devolving into chaos in a thread like this. So thankful it didn't happen. What a great place this has always been!
Karen
Agreed! Which is just one more reason that I like it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
Hear, hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckervill
A toast with your beverage of choice to TE. :) Long live TE. :cool:
It's been so helpful to be able to come here and get feedback. sometimes you do know the answers, but it helps to write out the issues and discuss them with others. The folks here on the this forum have always come through with helpful info and thoughtful, intelligent and insightful responses.
Having an internet community to come to is such helpful and useful medium. We live in a small town with limited resources. We don't know anyone who is dealing with these issues. We are familiar with the resources here in town. And we know that these resources don't meet our specific needs. We have sought out professional help. We have consulted their doctors. They have done nothing to help.
With other issues (such as MIL's celiac diagnosis) we've learned that doctors don't always have the best answers. If we had relied on the medical resources here in town, MIL would have died from Celiac. But through networking on the internet and going out of town for resources (found on the internet) we were able to get a diagnosis and treatment plan.
We have made an appointment with a counselor. The first one that we could schedule was on Jan 16. We don't know this counselor. We don't know what angle she will take. will she even be helpful?
We've been through all sorts of things in the past. We encouraged them to give up driving after MIL sideswiped a car and left the scene causing $12,000 to the other car. We encouraged them to move to an assisted living facility. We've refused to purchase their liquor. They found another source to buy it for them. They lent these folks money and then these folks began stealing from them. About this some time, FIL got sick went into the hospital and then the nursing home. This was summer '06. The assisted living facility told us that they would not allow FIL back unless their alcohol use was controlled.
well, we've bumbled along til now. Sure we've not done all the "right" things. We're just doing the best we can with what we've got. Getting insight and talking through the issues with you all is something that we are grateful for. thank you.
AA and the "sister" programs such as Alanon are highly anonymous, actually that's the basis and one of the foundations of the program.Quote:
Originally Posted by silver
It's hard to explain but it's not a secret society or "closeted" in any way. But it's not as if your Doctor can just say "Here, I'm referring you to my Alanon specialist, go to the Alanon Building"
I can almost gaurantee you know many or a few who are in some recovery process but because anonymity is the founding principle of this thang you could be talking to your best friend in the checkout line and it's possible that s/he would not say "come with me to the meeting I go to, it's in the next town."
It's likely s/he might say "I've heard Alanon would be helpful"
It's not as if those in recovery wear t-shirts or often even talk about it outside of meetings.
Then one day you go .... and there's your Dentist or next door neighbor and and I hope you may find the support that you deserve.
You can look up AA in almost any phone book, there are websites with contacts. And if you do not see an Alanon group listed just call or e-mail AA they will refer you to a local Alanon meeting nearest to you.
It's not like there is a building or meeting hall (well, in urban areas sometimes there are) but often the meeting's in a church, locally here I see a sign in the window of a Mexican Eatery :cool: they have meetings there.
Hey, might as well have good food after. :p
It's not a matter of it being a shameful thing, there's nothing to be ashamed of but it's a principle and structure and why the program works for so many and for so long is that they don't advertise.
Even if it was not nearby, or you had to go to the next town over or only when you travel .... but I'm still willing to bet there's a local meeting.
I think there's even a 12 step cycling club somewhere. :cool:
I second Trek's excellent Alanon post. I would heartily recommend that the Silvers both go to some alanon meetings and learn more about how to deal with alcoholic family members- even better, Alanon will help one look inside and figure out how to deal with one's OWN feelings of guilt, anger, frustration, etc, when dealing with alcoholics. The tools and insights you discover there will be invaluable not only during this difficult time, but even long after your parents are both gone- when the guilt, resentment, anger, and sadness continue to linger inside and negatively affect your lives in many small unexpected ways for years to come.
Their principles and ideas are pretty healthy and beneficial, and can come in handy for various other challenging/puzzling situations life comes up with.
I too think this caring and civil thread is further proof of TE members' special thoughtfulness, intelligence, and humanity.
A good start to the new year! :)
Oh, I think that you may have gotten the wrong idea about what I was saying about our small town.
(after rereading this....please understand that the following is a stream of consciousness rambling, wonderings of the impaired mind of silver as she sorts through things. I didn't initiate this exercise, but I'm finding that it has been very helpful to really examine many of the underlying issues)
I/We don't have any problems with anyone knowing what's going on, or our reputations or anything like that. Yes, I know quite a few recovering alcoholics. We know the resources. We know where they meet. I've been to the meetings. I'm a recovering addict. I have a good picture of how these programs can help, where to get resources. But what I know and what I've seen, does not address this situation. Going to an Al-anon meeting is not going to help me navigate the decisions that I need to make today, tonight, tomorrow to meet their needs....the ins and outs of nursing home care, end of life issues.
If we were to find that our daughter was abusing, I know exactly where the resources are to get help. but this is different. I think that the elderly just usually get shuffled through the system. Maybe our society doesn't place enough importance on them to really deal with it, or maybe any efforts are just useless so everyone has already given up.
You know, just exactly what will "tough love" look like? If Mr. hadn't given me second chances, I wouldn't be here, pedaling my heart out. Does it mean that I don't go visit the IL's, no contact. Don't help them in any way? Or does it mean that I don't bring them any liquor? Or am I supposed to take them some so that detox doesn't send them into some other breakdown of their already overtaxed systems.
As others have said, the tactics and strategies that are used to help addicts and addict's families are just not going to be as applicable in the elderly. The IL's do not want to change. They do not want to face their life issues. We can't force them to. I know this deep down, and obviously find myself trying again and again. It's a family dynamic. It's helpful for you all to remind me not to let myself get personally pulled in.
All that said, I do believe...and I've not discussed this with Mr.
....is that he could be helped by trying to attend some Al-anon meetings in Bloomington. So Trek, you do bring up a good point that there may be a better resource in a nearby town. They may have more resources there that could meet his need. I do think that it might help him deal with the guilt that he feels over the need to use the nursing home at all. I think that since I see the day to day details that I have a better idea of reality about dealing with the situation.
We tried the counseling thing once before and it was a huge bust. We're going to try again. The first available appt is jan 16. The only thing that we could do sooner is an in patient program and MIL is not willing to do that.
Thank you for "listening" to my rambling.
Now, that 12-step cycling program.....Where does the ride meet?
I come from a family of addicts of various types.
The one best piece of advice I can give is that the only person's behaviour you can change is your own. That doesn't just mean what you physically do or say but also how you think and emotionally react to the things that happen to you and around you. This makes me fall into the tough love category I guess. I believe that by changing myself I can affect a shift in the family dynamic that encourages those around me to change for the better.
Good luck to you and your family.
Silvers, all I have to offer are butterflies. Loads of them - helping you see clearly, aiding you in healing, giving you comfort in yourselves, your decisions, and allowing compassion, love and the best results from your decisions and heartache.
Hugs,
~T~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
Quote:
I/We don't have any problems with anyone knowing what's going on, or our reputations or anything like that. Yes, I know quite a few recovering alcoholics. We know the resources. We know where they meet. I've been to the meetings. I'm a recovering addict. I have a good picture of how these programs can help, where to get resources. But what I know and what I've seen, does not address this situation. Going to an Al-anon meeting is not going to help me navigate the decisions that I need to make today, tonight, tomorrow to meet their needs....the ins and outs of nursing home care, end of life issues.
I truly respect both of you - the more I read your posts, the more I respect you. It takes a great deal of self control and self reflection to handle everything that you are going through in the manner with which you are.
As a side note, I completely agree with #2 on Mr. Silver's list. Nothing was ever gained by criticism - it is a fruitless venting of emotion and frustration UNLESS it is done in love with good intentions, which I don't believe that it was.
Having met Mr. Mimitabby in person, I believe that his post was given with nothing but good intentions. His tone may have been different/more forceful than what we are used to here on TE. This is the same as a person raising their voice to get their point across. To someone like me who was raised in a quiet family, raising one's voice comes across as confrontational (until I learned otherwise). In the household of many of my friends with different backgrounds, it's a totally normal expression of intense feeling about the issue and can still be very constructive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flybye
And I'd have to argue that criticism can be very useful. If it's given with ideas of how to address the issue, it can be thought provoking and become the catalyst for change. Criticism that is nothing but negative feedback without suggestions for how to correct a situation is useless. My impression is that Mr. MT provided the former not the latter.
Mr. MT took time to compose 2 posts on a forum that he does not visit because he has specific expertise in the area. Perhaps it could have been done in a better way. But I would like to see us leave that issue to Mr. S and Mr. MT to deal with independently, as suggested by Mr. S.
Again Silvers, good luck, we're thinking about you.
I sure hope your mom keeps her word! Sorry I am late to this post (you know why:o).
Both my parents were drinkers and I said I would not go through it again! I tried to protect them. It was in vain on my part. I put so much of my energy into people who wanted to do what they wanted to do. So at one point I just threw in the towel. They were ruining my life at a young age and I couldn't do it any more. They are still around (not together anymore) and they both still drink. Not as much as when they were together but still do. I have a lot of space between us now and I don't keep in touch with them like I used to. I hate to say this but my life is better without them so close to me.
That is just my story...not giving advice or anything like that. Just a story for you to think about. The best of luck with them though. I hope they don't drag you down to far with them. I had to let go or I was going too be destroyed. But that is me.
Ultimately, it's up to the person to end their addiction & habit. Take it from me - trying to do it for them is a losing battle.
You may want to check out and read thoroughly through:
www.rational.org
(non denominational, free, good advice.)
Indigoiis (former lush.)
To All: I'm encouraged by knowledge that many face this problem. Honestly, I'm not aware of anyone in our personal or professional circles that face this (which may surprise many of you...).
Al-anon never even occurred to me until I read about it in this post. Silver and I have agreed that at least I should pursue it.
Team Estrogen continues to be a valuable resource for a plethora of issues:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahine
I'll take your word for that Wahine;) The first post offered incredible insight and hope.
BUT, the second post was personal and even the constructive parts seemed to come out of a contrary interpretation to what I previously said.
I don't have a problem with the tone; my issue is with what was said (at the risk of being accused of being in denial after considerable self-reflection;);))...but everyone's entitled to their opinions.
It seems that there are many who have viewed this thread and shared that they have in the past or are currently facing similar challenges. Notwithstanding a little controversy, I hope that this has been a bit edifying to the group...it has been useful to me. Thanks.:)
:D:DNOW, let's ride (despite snow here last night!):D:D
Al- anon is a program that doesn't advertise : attraction, not promotion. That being said, it is nice to see how many folks out there have gained some sort of life improvement ( or, serenity if you want to call it that) from the program.
Well, best laid plans of mice and men so often go awryQuote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
There are no al-anon groups in the southern half of Indiana, but there appear to be electronic meetings, so I'm waiting on information.
Every week in our newspaper are advertisements in the classified ads for Al-Anon, Narcotics Anonymous, and AA. I'd encourage anyone looking for these services to check the classified ads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
Karen
How can that be!? :eek: Seems like they have local meetings in just about every small town or large city I've ever read a newspaper from. It seems so hard to believe that an entire half of a state would have nothing. :confused::confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
Pretty much my reaction. Wherever there are 2 or more people, folding chairs and a coffee pot there's a meeting :cool: ;):rolleyes: log off and go find itQuote:
Originally Posted by Lisa S.H.
I was thinking just that! Williams Lake, in the middle of nowhere, with a population of less than 15,000 people, had Al-Anon meetings all the time.....I don't think that was just a reflection of a high percentage of alcoholics living there... hmmmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by Lisa S.H.
Keep trying, Mr. You'll find them,
Hugs and butterflies,
~T~
Here's a list of about 150 cities with al-anon meetings in Indiana. Albion thru Winimac, alphabetical. Is one of these in Southern Indiana?
http://www.indiana-al-anon.org/Meetings_By_City.htm
Each listing gives the city, address, day/time, group name, and name of the building they meet in.
(there are about 10-15 listings per page, and about 15 pages, so it may take some scrolling to find the one you want. Many cities and towns have more than one meeting, so they take up a lot of space on the pages)
This one is a map specific to Southern Indiana and Kentucky. http://www.kyal-anon.org/
You click on the find-a-meeting link, then click the county you want. It might be easier to navigate than the huge alphabetical listing for Indiana.
Wow! I was clearly having trouble navigating the al-anon site this morning! I promise, I was sober!
This is hopeful since one of these meetings in lunchtime across the street from my office. How 'about that
Perfect!
OK, I'd like to let this rest...but...
I'm not looking for sympathy or affirmation, but there's a serious gut check moment occurring.
Mom was making progress and taking responsibility for her drinking. She seemed prepared to quit if it made the difference between my dad being able to come home or not.
Then, dad died.
As we were cleaning up some stuff this weekend, we found a hidden bottle of scotch. Following the advice of this group and counselors, we said nothing (contrary to our prior responses...). Mom's a big girl...
Then, tonight I got a call from the facility staff saying Mom's drunk, dangerously so, and I need to deal with it.
Gut Check: I said "no", I can't intervene...if she's dangerous, send her to the ER and we'll pick her up later. But she's got to take responsibility for her actions.
I told them I wasn't trying to pass the buck, but if her drinking is a problem and they need to put her on notice that she'll get kicked out, then they have to tell her that and I can't protect her from her actions anymore.
Gut Check: Is this the right thing? THis is very uncomfortable...
At this point I think it's between you and your gut.
Personally, I always listen to my gut...