Gitane Mixte - rear wheel issues: is it the dropouts?

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06-09-2009, 09:22 AM
IvonaDestroi

Gitane Mixte - rear wheel issues

So I am working diligently on an old 70's gitane mixte frame, (teaching yourself bike repair isn't easy!) and I've had some problems with the rear wheel.

The original axle that came with the bike was bent, so I put on another 27" wheel from my schwinn which worked fine on that bike. I trued it as best as someone whos learning how to true could... it seems straight enough.

Now this wheel is starting to lean sideways and rub against the seat stays. I'm wondering if the old axle bent from this same problem, could it be my dropouts?

It's fine at first, then a couple of blocks down the road the wheel starts leaning sideways and rubbing the seat stay. The first wheel did this too, of course that one had the bent axle. I've re-installed it a couple of times, (quick release on both wheels), and my bike shop roomate also tried with the same result.

The center seat stay on the chain side is slightly bent outwards, although from what I looked up this is commonly done on mixte frames so the chain won't rub the seat stay. It does, in fact, look like if it were built straight the chain would rub.

However, I saw the same model (possibly a different year, but VERY similar from looking at it) at the bike shop the other day and that seat stay bend was nowhere nearly as pronounced as the one on my frame. The guy at the shop said it was probably fine. Could someone have tried to enhance this bend for some reason? It seems unlikely...

there is one spot on the paint on the inside of the stay where it looks like a chain may have once rubbed but it's hard to tell because there's paint chips all over the frame anyway, but the rest of the paint is fine in that spot.

What do I do now? How do you check your dropout alignment? I always think the problem is bigger then it is, maybe it's something simple that I'm doing wrong? over or under-tightening the wheel perhaps?:confused:
06-09-2009, 09:35 AM
Cataboo

I have no idea - but I just pictured you gallivanting around europe now or on safari in Africa, so I was surprised to see you post.
06-09-2009, 09:48 AM
IvonaDestroi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catriona

I have no idea - but I just pictured you gallivanting around europe now or on safari in Africa, so I was surprised to see you post.

LOL, still waitin on findin that job. On the upside I got unemployment again. I went to an interview for a hostess job at a brewery yesterday and there were 40 applicants ahead of me, really, I counted heads and there were 40 people interviewing for one position! I really don't like doing this whole unemployment thing, its driving me crazy!!!! Well, if my new man ever gets his army pension he promised he will take me himself. We will know in a month :D
06-09-2009, 10:39 AM
tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by IvonaDestroi

LOL, still waitin on findin that job. On the upside I got unemployment again. I went to an interview for a hostess job at a brewery yesterday and there were 40 applicants ahead of me, really, I counted heads and there were 40 people interviewing for one position! I really don't like doing this whole unemployment thing, its driving me crazy!!!! Well, if my new man ever gets his army pension he promised he will take me himself. We will know in a month :D

Hey, ho, Ivana, my favorite punk-rock fashionchick! Can you post a picture of the bike and wheel? Maybe that will help us to picture it better.

Crazy about that hostess job!

As for the man, just remember...A Man Is Not A Financial Plan! Take care of your own jellybeans no matter what!
06-09-2009, 01:20 PM
DebW

You can take the frame to a good bike shop or framebuilder and ask them to check the alignment. They should check that the dropout faces are parallel and in line, and that the stays are properly centered on the bottom bracket. There are standard tools to check this.

One thing you can check on your wheel. Take out the quick release skewer with the wheel in the bike and see how much axle protrudes into the dropout. The axle end should not be flush with or protrucing past the outer face of the dropout, but recessed inside it, yet long enough to be supported by the frame. If the axle were too long, then the quick release would not hold it in place and the wheel would slip as you ride and apply pressure to the pedals. Different frames can have different dropout thicknesses, and 70s bikes sometimes had a thick derailleur hanger on the derailleur that effectively made the dropout much thicker. If the wheel you just put on originally came from such a bike and the new bike has the derailleur hanger on the frame, or just has thinner dropouts, this could explain the problem, and the fix is easy. You'd either have to move both cones to change the axle spacing outside the lock nuts, or cut the axle shorter with a hacksaw.
06-10-2009, 12:01 PM
IvonaDestroi

Quote:

Originally Posted by DebW

One thing you can check on your wheel. Take out the quick release skewer with the wheel in the bike and see how much axle protrudes into the dropout. The axle end should not be flush with or protrucing past the outer face of the dropout, but recessed inside it, yet long enough to be supported by the frame. If the axle were too long, then the quick release would not hold it in place and the wheel would slip as you ride and apply pressure to the pedals. Different frames can have different dropout thicknesses, and 70s bikes sometimes had a thick derailleur hanger on the derailleur that effectively made the dropout much thicker. If the wheel you just put on originally came from such a bike and the new bike has the derailleur hanger on the frame, or just has thinner dropouts, this could explain the problem, and the fix is easy. You'd either have to move both cones to change the axle spacing outside the lock nuts, or cut the axle shorter with a hacksaw.

Ok, so I took out the skewer and took some photos. Also both the schwinn that the wheel came off of and this bike have a 1/8" derailleur hanger.

Also, I measured the length from dropout to dropout straight line from derailleur hanger on both bikes, and for the schwinn I got 5 1/4" and on the Gitane 5.0". Of course I'm using a ruler and eyeballing whats straight... but i measured again counting the derailleur hangers which should each add 1/8 and they did so the numbers matched both times.

so the schwinn dropouts are 1/4" wider then the gitane ones from what I can tell.

I'm trying to picture what you meant by flush or portruding past the outer face, I'm not sure if this is looking right:

Left Side:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...t/DSCF6270.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...t/DSCF6272.jpg

Right Side:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...t/DSCF6276.jpg

Is 1/4" difference enough to cause this problem? Do they look right on the pictures?
06-10-2009, 06:07 PM
IvonaDestroi

O-M-G.

So I was returning the supposedly functioning wheel to its original bike when.... dink dink... my axle landed on the floor in two pieces!

I put it back together and put the bearings back in, then gave the wheel a ride just to see, and I didn't even notice a difference from before! Feels fine! Wonder how long that's been goin on for...

Do they have an emoticon for banging your head against the wall? I think I need one...

Didnt take a pic, but here is one that looks exactly like my break:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3387/...256c83309c.jpg

So now I need 2 new axles!!!! AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, original question still pertains. It works fine pieced together on the schwinn so i dont think this particular break caused that problem on the gitane... maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I give up for today. I need a beer...
06-10-2009, 10:05 PM
DebW

Broken axles on freewheeled rear wheels are common because of the length of unsupported axle on the freehweel side. Even if this wheel seems fine to ride while broken (and they frequently do), it's not a good idea. Go buy 2 new axles. Take the old ones with you to the LBS to get the length right and try screwing the cones on the new axle. Axles come with 2 different threadings, and they are so close that you can turn the cones 3-4 revolutions on the wrong axle before they bind. Buy cones wrenches also if you want to do this job yourself.

Looking at your first picture of the L.H.S. above, I'd say the axle protrudes beyond the outside of the dropout face and is too long, yet in the 2nd picture it looks a bit recessed. The quick release doesn't work right unless the axle is recesses about 2 mm.
06-10-2009, 10:52 PM
IvonaDestroi

Quote:

Originally Posted by DebW

Broken axles on freewheeled rear wheels are common because of the length of unsupported axle on the freehweel side. Even if this wheel seems fine to ride while broken (and they frequently do), it's not a good idea. Go buy 2 new axles. Take the old ones with you to the LBS to get the length right and try screwing the cones on the new axle. Axles come with 2 different threadings, and they are so close that you can turn the cones 3-4 revolutions on the wrong axle before they bind. Buy cones wrenches also if you want to do this job yourself.

Looking at your first picture of the L.H.S. above, I'd say the axle protrudes beyond the outside of the dropout face and is too long, yet in the 2nd picture it looks a bit recessed. The quick release doesn't work right unless the axle is recesses about 2 mm.

I think you're right, the frewheel side is the one that sticks out the most. I will stop by the used bike shop down the street tomarrow and pick up a couple of new used axles... You've been super helpful, I never would have figured that sizing issue out on my own! Who knows how many bent/broken axles that would have cost me :p

It's funny how everything I've done so far is coming in couples so I am repeating everything a few times every time I fix something, so I guess this week is learn your axles week! My roomate said he will help me straighten the bent one, so maybe I'll even get to learn how to do that too:rolleyes:
06-11-2009, 12:22 AM
DebW

Looks like you've got about 5 threads showing on the non-freewheel side and 7 on the freewheel side. The non-freewheel side is too long, but the freewheel side could be longer because of the extra width added to the dropout by the deraulleur hanger. I'd suggest when you replace the axle you set the spacing beyond the lock nut on the non-freewheel side, so the axle end sits about in the middle of the dropout thickness, or at least 1/3 of the way in from the outer edge. Then the freewheel side will fall where it wants to fall, but the thickness of dropout + hanger will give you lots of wiggle room. Make sure each side is recessed about 2 mm.
06-15-2009, 12:57 PM
IvonaDestroi

Quote:

Originally Posted by DebW

Looks like you've got about 5 threads showing on the non-freewheel side and 7 on the freewheel side. The non-freewheel side is too long, but the freewheel side could be longer because of the extra width added to the dropout by the deraulleur hanger. I'd suggest when you replace the axle you set the spacing beyond the lock nut on the non-freewheel side, so the axle end sits about in the middle of the dropout thickness, or at least 1/3 of the way in from the outer edge. Then the freewheel side will fall where it wants to fall, but the thickness of dropout + hanger will give you lots of wiggle room. Make sure each side is recessed about 2 mm.

Well I meandered over to the shop the other day and went through a giant drawer of rear axles, none of which were the same size/threading as the broken one. Of course they didn't have the tool to remove the freewheel off the bent axle wheel either. Sigh.

I've decided just to buy a pair of aluminum wheels from my roomie. They are nice and it's a pretty good deal... hopefully those will work out better for me! Of course I also stripped the threads inside my derailleur where the shifter cable locks in so well now I have to replace that too! Along with a new cable because now the old one is too short. And take a link out of the chain while I'm at it...

This thing is never going to be finished!!!