Wheel size choice

[Catrin]

There is no secret that I really like the 26 inch wheels on my LHT. It is looking more and more as if my Gunnar may well be a true custom size to me rather than a stock size (though we are still determining that). If we DO go with a true custom size, I am wondering what advantage there might be to 650 wheels over 26 inch wheels - if any.

I understand that if the fit is right that it wouldn't matter if I had 700cc wheels - would there be an advantage to 650cc over 700cc? I understand the main reason for using 650cc wheels is to decrease toe overlap for smaller frames. I know I shouldn't be prejudiced against 700cc wheels due to my experience with the Trek 7.6 FX WSD - that 15 inch bike was simply too large for me.

I want to stick to 26 inch wheels if I can, but I don't want to reject something that would work out of my Trek experience. I am also researching the tire widths available for 26 inch and 650cc wheels to see what is available. I don't want really skinny tires, no skinnier than the equivalent of the 700x28cc tire at most.

I feel like I am getting in over my head, any tips at what I should consider? This is meant to be my light go-faster bike for club rides/centuries. No racks, fenders only - my LHT is built for carrying stuff, all day meanderings and touring.

[Cataboo]

really, if this is going to be your go fast bike - you should really go narrower than 700x28 at some point. Really, skinny tires are fun and less work You also get used to them.

I wouldn't put 26"ers on your gunnar - I'm slightly prejudiced towards 700cs, because I hated the one 650c bike I had - and at 5'1, I fit fine on 700s.

There's a ton of 650c vs. 700c threads on here - and really, just decide what you like If gunnar can do it for you, a few people on here have bikes that they can swap in between 26" and 650c tires on them depending on what they're doing with them.

There is a lot more selection available in 700c tires than 650cs, you're more likely to be able to bum an innertube off of someone during a century... (I don't know if sag wagons carry 650c tubes or anything like that). And if you were touring on it, you'd have any easier time getting 700c or 26" tires or tubes or replacement wheels...

[indysteel]

I have no personal experience with 650c wheels, but I'm not sure I understand your preference for 26-inch wheels. I reseached them a bit wheh you asked about upgrading your Surly's wheels a few weeks back, and if I recall, you can't go particularly narrow with them. I also wonder how much coin you'd have to drop to get a pair that's relatively light.

Admittedly I'm partial to my relatively light set of custom wheels. If I were going to the trouble of building a custom steel bike, I wouldn't scrimp on the wheels if I could afford not to, and I certainly wouldn't go with something heavy. Your builder may end up having an opinion about 700c versus 650c wheels based on their design.

Out of curiosity, why the preference for 28s? Not that there's anything wrong with them, I'm just wondering about your reasoning.

[lunacycles]

26 inch wheels allow a variety of tire profiles, down to 25c (1") which is pretty narrow. If you go with 650c you are limited to 20 or 23mm widths (Terry's offered one Panaracer-made tire in something wider, but it isn't great quality, and it isn't necessarily always available). So narrow or really effing narrow. 650B may be a better option for you if you are wanting versatility. 650B is a larger diameter wheel than both 26" and 650c, but it offers more versatility in tire profiles. If you go 650B, however, you can't want a super narrow tire width. That's not what 650B is about.

The reason for going with the smaller wheel isn't exclusively about wanting to prevent toe overlap. When one is short but rides a bike with a larger wheel the front end is unnaturally high. For a lot of women who prefer an upright riding position this isn't a problem. But for those who want the kind of fit that results in ultimate efficiency and power transfer, it is indeed a compromise. A higher front end necessarily forces more weight on the back end of the bike.

In addition, going with a large wheel on a small frame means a very short head tube which can be hard on headsets. Not very compelling these days, but something to mention and add into the mix.

[Catrin]

This is all good information and gives me food for thought. I am certainly going to go with custom wheels, I am just considering the different wheel sizes and what I need/want out of my new Gunnar. Time to go ponder all of this, and find those older threads that Cataboo mentioned

[indysteel]

Margo, can you not run 25 mm tired on 650c wheels?

Thanks for correcting me on the 26-inch wheels. I really thought the profiles were more limited.

With everything you said, is it safe to assume that the builder will have/want some input about the wheels when designing the bike?

[oz rider]

There is no secret that I really like the 26 inch wheels on my LHT. It is looking more and more as if my Gunnar may well be a true custom size to me rather than a stock size (though we are still determining that). If we DO go with a true custom size, I am wondering what advantage there might be to 650 wheels over 26 inch wheels - if any.

I understand that if the fit is right that it wouldn't matter if I had 700cc wheels - would there be an advantage to 650cc over 700cc? I understand the main reason for using 650cc wheels is to decrease toe overlap for smaller frames. I know I shouldn't be prejudiced against 700cc wheels due to my experience with the Trek 7.6 FX WSD - that 15 inch bike was simply too large for me.

I want to stick to 26 inch wheels if I can, but I don't want to reject something that would work out of my Trek experience. I am also researching the tire widths available for 26 inch and 650cc wheels to see what is available. I don't want really skinny tires, no skinnier than the equivalent of the 700x28cc tire at most.

I feel like I am getting in over my head, any tips at what I should consider? This is meant to be my light go-faster bike for club rides/centuries. No racks, fenders only - my LHT is built for carrying stuff, all day meanderings and touring.

This toe overlap thing is gaining urban myth status on some forums. I have an old 650 with major toe overlap, and I have a custom 650 with no overlap, and I know men on Cervelos (and others) that have toe overlap. I had a 700 with some overlap. Anyone would think that toe overlap was the only element of geometry affected (or accommodated) by wheel size and it's just not true. And in most cases, overlap only affects very slow speeds and sharp turns anyway. You learn to ride around it if it's severe, although I prefer it to be minimal.

One of the trickiest things about going custom is trust. It's huge. I know women who could go 650 (so borderline) but have thousands of dollars worth of 700 wheels so they went 700 - fair enough. But understand the anti-650 prejudice for what it is. A custom builder doesn't have a shop full of 700c bikes to sell, so they are often good to discuss it with. As I put it to a young man in a bike shop one day, who told me I didn't want a 650, "So you think I should ride a bike that doesn't fit 365 days a year rather than have issues with parts 2 days a year?" And another guy who spewed the mantra based on debatable triathlon aero concerns: "Do you tell your male clients to ride a bike that's too big for them, or just the women?" It's just silly.

Fit is paramount to me, but then I'm hard to fit. Getting back to geometry, it's all connected and the issue is (or should be) more about the fit of the 650/700 frame than the wheels. Have a look at the differences in geometry between the 650 and 700 Felts for example. You will find that, if your issue is reach, it is often accommodated on a 700 by steepening the seat tube which pushes you forward relative to the bottom bracket - not a position I like for power or handling. Or a high front end - not great if you're slogging away in the drops. A 650 roadie is a very different beast to a LHT though. Even 650 roadies ride very differently to 700 roadies. A 650 roadie will be neat and nimble while the LHT is a long wheelbase with relaxed angles and handling. If you compare the geometry, you'll see there's many differences beyond wheel size.

650s and 26in wheels are a very similar size - 12mm difference in circumference - but you will find 650 wheels are generally lighter than 26in and are designed for narrower tyres than 26in, which is a mtb wheel after all. If it's a quick roadie, you will probably want 23mm tyres (even if you don't know it yet ;-)) and your designer is unlikely to want to use a fork that would accommodate 28mm tyres on such a beast anyway. 650 tyres other than 23mm are rare (I saw some 24s recently). And while they seem slim to start, as already said, you get used to them. And they're lighter and faster. 700c is more common and you can bot a tube from other riders if need be. But there's ways around it. I just carry two tubes and some patches on a long or remote ride. So don't let convenience be a determinant above the right frame geometry. In fact my tourer has 26in wheels but I can use 650 tubes in both the roadie and slim touring/cx tyres. Very convenient. :-) However, there are certainly more options with 700, no doubt about it.

It's great that you have some experience with different bikes. Ride as many as you can before deciding. And have a look at the geometry specs - it becomes illuminating over time. I would go with fit and handling rather than wheel size. If a 700 is the best fit, great (and gives you more options). If it's a 650, great.

[Catrin]

For the Gunnar Sport, the smallest stock size does take 26-inch wheels - and if it turns out that is the size that fits me best then that is what i will have. Just the idea that I might be going full custom has me thinking about all different kinds of things - and thankfully I am working with folks that know a lot more than I do, and with a company that does custom well

[lunacycles]

Margo, can you not run 25 mm tired on 650c wheels?

Indysteel, I don't know of a 25mm tire that is 650c. Do you? I haven't checked in a while, but as these wheels aren't exactly gaining in popularity, I don't believe there are any new tire choices in this size, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong. The only tire options in this size I have seen for the last several years run 18c to 23c, all quite narrow.

Terry did (and I haven't checked lately) offer a 28mm touring tire in 650c made by Panaracer, I believe, but I wasn't impressed with it, and cannot attest to its availability.

My mantra has always been go 26" if ultimate tire versatility is wanted (1"/25c to...the sky's the limit), and 650c if not--if you are looking for a pure road bike. 650b, although not really mainstream, is available for the randonneuring crowd, so larger profiles are available and is a good option for those wanting that kind of ride.

[Catrin]

My mantra has always been go 26" if ultimate tire versatility is wanted (1"/25c to...the sky's the limit), and 650c if not--if you are looking for a pure road bike. 650b, although not really mainstream, is available for the randonneuring crowd, so larger profiles are available and is a good option for those wanting that kind of ride.

I like the versatility of 26", and the Gunner will be a better randonneuring bike than my LHT - as much as I love my LHT she is very much like a cushy tank I also want the possibility of a wider range of tires for my Sport. Options, I like options. I didn't know that there are 650b and 650c, something more to research - assuming we do not choose to go with a stock frame size. Margo - thanks for your input, it is helpful to hear a frame-builders perspective. IndySteel, you ask great questions that always get me thinking Oz Rider, I agree that absolutely the fit is the most important - there are reasons I am going with Gunnar rather than a stock bike off the LBS floor...

[indysteel]

Very interesting information, ladies. Thank you. I went through the custom process a couple of years ago with a different builder than Catrin is using, but the same fitter. I don't recall EVER having a conversation about wheel size. Granted, I was riding a roadie at the time with custom 700c wheels, and perhaps that's why. I suspect that I could have potentially benefitted from at least having a discussion about it, especially since I've struggled to get enough setback with my saddle with the bike's STA.

Catrin, it sounds like you potentially have a lot to discuss with your builder. I, personally, have no issue with using 23mm tires, but I'm not sure I'd like be forced to run them because I had no other choice. Knowing how disappointed I've ultimately been about the fit of my own custom bike, I totally agree with Oz that fit should be the primary consideration.

[Catrin]

Updated information - as it turns out Gunnar is recommending 26 inch wheels for my custom bike, so that settles that. It was my preference anyway so will leave it as it is.

[Cataboo]

Terry posted this on facebook today. A good discussion of 650 vs 700c

http://community.terrybicycles.com/p...php?f=19&t=164

[Catrin]

Which model did you end up going with? Was it the Crosshair?

We wound up with a true custom design - and while it is not a Crosshair it is based upon the Crosshair.

So far I have been impressed with the interaction I've had with Waterford on my order. Of course it hasn't yet arrived, but it was very clear that they only recommend a full custom design for Gunnars if their stock sizes just will not work - and they do have a lot of sizes.