Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?

I have only read peripherally about the mixed martial art sport (MMA or branded now as UFC, or Ultimate Fighting). Of course the highly publicized women's match between Roussey vs. Blom was made a big deal. Where the tough, strong Roussey went down and lost in Nov. 2015.

After having recovered from cycling concussion accident a yr. ago, I can no longer watch any boxing or MMA sport. I don't even like see violent pushing in pro hockey. I don't watch football because I actually always found it boring. I'd rather watch basketball or baseball as team sports. No, I haven't seen the movie, "Concussion" with Will Smith. I'm not sure I feel like revisiting an injury, but for football, see all the terrible issues on money, greed, vulnerability of athlete's health and denial that are involved.

I am shocked by the level of denial in the MMA world on the high rate of concussion and permanent brain injury among fighters. I really do believe Roussey suffered a concussion in the lst round with Blom where her performance went down. It's SO obvious that's the reason. OUr brain cannot take sudden hard jerks with cereabral mass hitting against the skull. OUr cerebreal spinal fluid isn't much cushion at all.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...al-bouts-study

http://www.foxsports.com.au/ufc/earl...-1227638573809

All this denial, is similar to nay-sayers on bike helmet use. EVen worse, since MMA fighting, football, expressly involved manoeuvres that affect the head.
I understand some feminists celebrate all this tough, strong fighting. I get that. But honestly, the loss of brain functioning is not worth it. And I am a person who has recovered.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

I have only read peripherally about the mixed martial art sport (MMA or branded now as UFC, or Ultimate Fighting). Of course the highly publicized women's match between Roussey vs. Blom was made a big deal. Where the tough, strong Roussey went down and lost in Nov. 2015.......I understand some feminists celebrate all this tough, strong fighting.

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I don’t see any value in MMA/UFC sport fighting but do see the strong advantages of the developing the body and mental awareness, the decisiveness, inner power, self confidence and harmony that comes with learning a self-defense style like Aikido. My parents helped me immensely by being very supportive of my becoming a student of Aikido in my early teens and I’d be supportive of my future children starting a self-defense martial arts learning journey early too. I've only had to use those skills twice in my life outside a dojo and both times to end a sexual assault attempt quickly and effectively, one with a knife used and both led to an arrest and conviction.....but then that is just a side advantage of my continuing journey of self-defense based on non-violence and the preservation of life with my present sensei. aikido, yoga and pilates are my trinity......at the moment :)

and yeah there is more than enough evidence of the dangers of concussions (and has been for a number of years) that it makes me sad to see so many parents still wanting and in some cases directing their children to participate in sports that have that possible element…..and to see the denial based on wanting wins and profit in professional sports is close to criminal in my mind.

All of this vindicates my decision to never let my sons participate in football.

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Originally Posted by Crankin

All of this vindicates my decision to never let my sons participate in football.

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Frontline aired a really good documentary based on a book of the same title called League of Denial about the dangers of repeated traumatic brain injury in football (though it could certainly apply to any sport where there may be repeated head injuries). You should certainly feel vindicated - I believe I recall that when the scientists were able to study the brains of teens who played football and died from other causes, that they found early but visible and noticeable changes to those brains from TBIs.

The hospital that I work at has been developing a helmet with accelerometers and other sensors that is supposed to help decide how to pull players out of games before they actually reach injury stage, and standards on how long to keep them out, but I can't help but think that the damage is more subtle than we really know and even using this technology will be too little, too late.

There do seem to be improvements in the head injury protocols for high school football players, such as not allowing them to play or practice for a certain time period after a hit. I don't know how widespread they are though. I think real changes will have to come from parents and coaches believing that they're necessary.

I read something yesterday online, I'll try to find it later. It was written by an NFL player about how he felt after gaining a better understanding of the risks of TBI and football. He said that he doesn't regret his involvement in the sport but if he had children he doesn't know if he'd allow them to play it.

As for things like boxing and MMA, I really don't get the appeal. There's a certain silliness in all sports, when you really think about them -- trying to throw a ball through a hoop or to kick it into a net or hit it with a stick and then run around in a circle. Or to run or ride a bike really fast from point a to point b just to say you were fast. But when the entire objective is to hit someone until they fall down, to me that's not a sport.

I skimmed an article a while back, in which a neurosurgeon claimed that helmets do little to protect the brain in cycling accidents. I'll see if I can find it, but I seriously doubt that is true. But...
When I was thrown into the street, my broad backside took the brunt of the impact and my head hitting the pavement was kind of a secondary bounce that cracked my helmet in three places. It's possible that if I'd gone down head first (and not in the recumbent position) there would have been significantly more damage.

Here is the article from the NFL player.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/12/29/dbr...sion-movie-cte

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Originally Posted by Eden

The hospital that I work at has been developing a helmet with accelerometers and other sensors that is supposed to help decide how to pull players out of games before they actually reach injury stage, and standards on how long to keep them out, but I can't help but think that the damage is more subtle than we really know and even using this technology will be too little, too late.

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I would tend to agree with you Eden, that it is abit too late. AFter all they would only be pulled out of game if the reading was too "high".

Crankin, I know someone at work who told me as a boy, his mother forbade him from playing high school football because one of his classmates died during football practice.

Interestingly after telling some people about the nature of my injury, I hear more stories ...that people were unwilling to disclose from the past OR they didn't understand the seriousness of what happened to them when they got knocked down with their head involved.

Rebecca: MMA as you may know has some origins in kung fu fighting where the priests created these "exercises" / manoeuvres partially for defense as well as for health/exercise reasons. I read a book of an American who was one of the rare non-Chinese allowed to live and learn the art. It really is amazing for the original skill and manoeuvres...which I don't see much some of the original tenets in MMA.

What a lot of people don't realize that even in tai chi (that gentle type of exercise), there are some simple manoeuvres for deflecting your opponent's oncoming fist or how to stand, centre your weight to withstand the push of several people against you.

Roussey needs go back to martial arts origins of meditation and the power of deflecting opponent violence without overly hurting the other person.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

Roussey needs go back to martial arts origins of meditation and the power of deflecting opponent violence without overly hurting the other person.

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I see the UFC as simply a blood sport akin to organized dogfighting and the antithesis of Aikido.

Within self-defense Aikido has taught me how to protect the other and myself by blending with the energy of the attack and redirecting it back using compassion, efficiency, control and restraint. For me though and more importantly, from that first step through the doorway of the dojo and my first bow it’s been an 18 year continuing self-discovery/learning journey on the art of leading a peaceful life with inner harmony and courage. As my first sensei use to say….peace begins within. I too wish Roussey and everyone could benefit from those attributes.

….and I agree that both Tai Chi and Aikido can complement each other well as you develop your skills.

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Originally Posted by lauraelmore1033

I skimmed an article a while back, in which a neurosurgeon claimed that helmets do little to protect the brain in cycling accidents. I'll see if I can find it, but I seriously doubt that is true. But...
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a good helmet can help eliminate some of the impact on the outside of the head but your brain can still move and hit the inside of your skull. knowing the symptoms of a mild+ concussion is good info to have....and for helping others. i always try to focus on bike safety but sometimes quick accidents happen. i not only wear a helmet, i've also learned how to land/roll in different falls for more head protection.
aikido keeps working itself into my posts in this thread :)

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Originally Posted by rebeccaC

a good helmet can help eliminate some of the impact on the outside of the head but your brain can still move and hit the inside of your skull. knowing the symptoms of a mild+ concussion is good info to have....and for helping others. i always try to focus on bike safety but sometimes quick accidents happen. i not only wear a helmet, i've also learned how to land/roll in different falls for more head protection.

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MIPS helmets can help with the rotational impacts inside the skull, too. When I crashed this Fall (on loose, rutted gravel going down a hill and trying to avoid my kid in front of me and an oncoming car) I destroyed my helmet (dented and cracked, but its contents were unscathed). It had needed replacing for a while for being just flat-out nasty from years of use. We replaced it with a Lazer MIPS model.

Interesting thread. I have two boys in sports -- one in 7th grade and one in 9th grade. Before starting 7th grade both boys were required to do a screening baseline for concussion purposes. After taking a knee to the head in a scramble after a basketball the officials stopped the game and did some "field" tests to see if they thought my son had concussion symptoms. He was not allowed to go back to practice until we took him for an additional screening to compare his tests to the baseline tests. When a new improved football helmet became available - the community did fundraising to try to buy them as soon as they were available for our high school team and Tony Stewart (Nascar Driver) ended up paying for the helmets.

So I think protocols are getting better along with better education of coaches, officials, etc. It may help that I live in Indiana where the NCAA is headquartered (and is facing litigation regarding concussions). However, I've also read articles where some famous football players have admitted to "cheating" on their baseline test so that their follow up tests won't show as much damage. When they're adults, well, that's their decision. But I also understand that it's not "adults" learning and getting into the sports -- its 3rd, 4th, and 5th graders in the beginning where there is no informed choice or decision.

As for MMA, I don't get it, and I think its little more than modern day gladiators. But I'm not going to tell adults how to spend their time if they want to partake in that kind of sport.

But what has been happening with NFL and head concussions for the professional players....are still players wearing helmets.

What is being lost in all this, that a sudden fast and hard jolt the head at a high short velocity without the head hitting a wall, pavement, hard object, can also cause some concussion for the brain jostled. My emergency medicine doctor-sister stressed this to me.

I have a close friend in her 40's. About 3 years ago her car was rear-ended. She had her seat-belt on ..but she had whiplash injury, had to wear a neck collar brace..and she also had a concussion. Her head did not hit anything. She had some headaches, found bright light very hard on her, was occasionally dizzy, etc. Unfortunately unlike me, she didn't take several wks. off from work. She should have because it took longer for her to recover.

Then she sustained 2nd concussion...when she slipped on ice while snowshoeing...just last year.

Multiple concussions are cumulative. The brain doesn't become "stronger".

One of my sisters and her hubby, have their 3 teenage children (1 girl, 2 boys with eldest now 18 yrs. old) each play in no-contact ice hockey leagues in Metro Toronto. This is for the last few years. Not every city offers this. Take advantage of it. My sister is licensed pharmacist working in a teaching hospital. Yes, they deal with concussions. The hospital actually produced an patient education video which she passed on to me during my rehab.

So at my end, I had immediate family expertise to cross-check with my attending physician.

As for football for kids, no comment. Still reliant on child admitting they don't feel right and the coach pulling off the player from field. A lot of teens may not want to even admit they feel not right because they don't want to disappoint themselves, coach or team.

I'm not sure if this will finally nail the importance..concussion is a form of brain injury. Head injury doesn't quite adequately describe the nature of the injury. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...C6D7DD80D4F230
Aromig, it is suggested to ask a physician next time about concussions in general.

There's actually a discussion on Q radio show (www.cbc.ca) about concussions tonight. It was a very interesting discussion.

The lazer helium is a nice helmet.
In a well-designed and manufactured helmet mips can mimic a layer of cerebral fluid and allow for a small level of low-friction movement. It and some other newer technologies (conehead etc.) bring some small improvements to protection….that’s good. People shouldn’t be thinking though that in a hard impact today’s bicycle helmets will prevent the concussion effect of blood vessels stretching or tearing against the skull or the damaging of cranial nerves….simply because of how the brain will move with impact. There could be a helmet that does offer stronger protection but it would be too heavy, hot and not stylish enough for the average person....perhaps future technologies will get us closer. There are a number of ways a helmet can help with head injuries though and that makes it important enough to wear one. I’ll repeat the idea of learning how to instinctively fall in ways that protects against head impact is important to help with concussions especially at the slower speeds of most bicyclists.

I know that concussions cause cumulative damage. I also know that concussions still occur with helmets. However my previous comment about football helmets was related to the fact that some helmets are better than others and new versions are being developed all the time. We're not going to get rid of football in high schools. It's just not going to happen. I'm happy that our community schools have invested in the most modern helmets that are better than the old helmets. Because let's face it - there would be kids out there playing that sport even if they couldn't get a helmet.

Concussions are going to happen in any sport. I've actually read somewhere (I couldn't find it quickly) that more kids in soccer suffer concussions than in football. Am I going to tell my kids they can't play soccer and basketball (their chosen sports)? No. I believe that the positive outcomes that are certain to occur in those two sports outweigh the potential harm. Is that a different equation with football? Probably. I take risks when I ride my bike too. Am I going to quit riding bikes? Nope. I'm just going to be as prepared as I can be. Am I going to be educated about it and keep an eye out for symptoms? Yes. Am I grateful that the schools are now providing more training to trainers, coaches, officials to recognize symptoms? Yes. And I have talked to our physician about it - after the scare I mentioned above where my son was hit in the head in a basketball game (not football). I was also grateful that the schools had taken the risk seriously and that ALL athletes are required to do the prior screening (not just football).

With respect to the kids admitting that they don't feel well -- there are some symptoms that kids can't mask (pupil reactions, etc.) I've seen many a kid removed from the game by officials even when the kids insisted they felt fine and could stay in the game. I'm glad that the IHSAA (Indiana High School Athletic Association) has vested its officials with the capacity to make those calls because let's face it, there are kids/parents/coaches who might not make the right call. Some researchers at Indiana University are testing a goggles like device that scans eye activity that will take out the subjective testing to immediately detect concussions. I'm excited that we'll likely see this technology on the sidelines of a lot of sports in the next year or so removing the human part of the screening all together (then again, it will still take someone noticing that someone took a hit to the head in order to decide to screen them).

There's still a lot of work to do. Concussions are serious. I'm glad I live in the times I do where the risks are being taken seriously, many people are doing research and developing new knowledge and products. It was a lot different 40 years ago.

Well said, Aromig.

You're lucky Aromig to have some mechanisms being worked on in your area and parental support.

When my partner, as a volunteer parent, was coaching his son's soccer team, he made a decision not to have the boys head the soccer ball. (Hit the oncoming ball with your head instead of kicking it.) He's glad he did it. This was ...28 yrs. ago or more. In watching my teen nephews' soccer games, they don't head the ball. The top Canadian medical research organization on brain injuiries and sport (hockey, football, etc.) is in Toronto. Some of the professional Canadian players who died, donated their brain for research.

I don't know about other countries, but I think all places in the US are going to start getting similar support very soon. There are enough big lawsuits out there about concussions that sports organizations are on notice that ignorance is no longer bliss.

I'm trying to find the time to go see the movie "concussion."

My youngest is a goalie - and he's been hit in the face by the ball a few times, but by far (I think in my uneducated opinion) headers are pretty dangerous - it's not necessarily the ball but when its up in the air more than one person will try to head the ball and then they end up hitting heads. It also makes me super nervous when my goalie kid dives after the ball with all the legs/feet still trying to kick it. yes, there are times they're supposed to clear the goal box but wow, its scary.

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Originally Posted by rebeccaC

I've only had to use those skills twice in my life outside a dojo and both times to end a sexual assault attempt quickly and effectively, one with a knife used and both led to an arrest and conviction.....but then that is just a side advantage of my continuing journey of self-defense based on non-violence and the preservation of life with my present sensei. aikido, yoga and pilates are my trinity......at the moment :)

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Wow. Just wow. I'm out of shape and out of training but heading back to the matt. Yeah, Aikido works. To heck with it being "dance-like", eh? So glad that you're trained and that it ended well for you. While injuries are rare in Aikido and there's very little risk of concussion one does take a beating falling so often. OTOH all that getting up again is good for us.

I've never faced a live knife and hope to heck and back I never have to. It has helped a couple times when I took a fall off the bike! :cool:

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

All this denial, is similar to nay-sayers on bike helmet use.

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There is no helmet debate where bikes are used for sports.

An adult who is familiar and proficient at riding rolling down the block to the store on a Dutch bike is not exactly MMA-level risk, and should be able to make that call on their own.

Can we please not have a "should bike helmets be mandatory" debate here?

Exactly. I am not going to argue. A fall where you hit your head at 5 mph when rolling on your city bike is not going to make your brain happy.

Exactly- that's why I never take my full face helmet off at any time. Imagine the damage you could do just tripping while walking through the market or rolling out of bed! I certainly never set foot inside a motor vehicle, where 20% of all of TBIs occur (an activity where professional racers wear helmets religiously, and the idea of regular people using helmets during this activity is laughed at).

TL;DR- humans are incredibly bad at evaluating risk, and I hate to see bikes singled out and uniformly and illogically thrown under the metaphorical bus. Australia is well-known as very unfriendly to bikes (universal helmet law) and The Netherlands is pretty well-known as bike heaven (very low rate of helmet use). At least differentiate "cycle sports" from "bikes".

Ya know… I recently read that it is more often than not it is pointless to try to talk someone out of viewpoint…. worse yet that often, in perverse opposition to reason, presenting a person with facts only entrenches them more strongly in their beliefs… so I'm going to remember that this was a discussion primarily about intentionally participating in sports where concussion is likelihood or even an inevitability and not about mandatory helmet wearing on bike rides (even if it was peripherally compared to that debate).

I've tried to stay away from concussion discussion 'cause I'm one of those with cumulative injury. Not sure how many I've had. Just know I've had more than enough. My last one, if it were to happen to an average person with 0 or 1 concussion prior then most likely, that person would have walked away with a mild one. I ended up without short term memory for a while, I have no recollection of ambulance ride nor the hospital stay nor being discharged from the hospital after a week or so stay. Neurosurgeon said that there will be no next one for me.

I'm jut glad that parents and coaches are taking concussions more seriously. Even my nephew said something about concussion in soccer players from hitting the ball with head.

Nope, no one can change my mind. And, I won't get into it with sarcasm. But, I do evaluate risks in *all* situations, not just riding. I've had a concussion from a car accident and accidentally slamming the point of my car door into my head, while opening it (when I was getting in the car to meet Hirakukibou for a ride!). I am extremely risk averse in everything, not just cycling! Less so, than when I was younger, but when you are brought up to fear everything, I've come a long way. It's funny, because my "regular" friends think I am a dare devil. There's a lot of things I evaluate and don't do, that have nothing to do with cycling.

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Originally Posted by smilingcat

I've tried to stay away from concussion discussion 'cause I'm one of those with cumulative injury. Not sure how many I've had. Just know I've had more than enough. My last one, if it were to happen to an average person with 0 or 1 concussion prior then most likely, that person would have walked away with a mild one. I ended up without short term memory for a while, I have no recollection of ambulance ride nor the hospital stay nor being discharged from the hospital after a week or so stay. Neurosurgeon said that there will be no next one for me.

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This is just more details of what happened to me on Jan. 1, 2015 (this is how I started a new year):

Like you smilingcat for your last concussion (I assume your neurosurgeon meant if there was another one next time, then you could be disabled.), I have no recollection of what happened for 3 hrs. or so after the other cyclist crashed into me. I was turning a corner on a bike path.

I don't even have memory when the collision occurred. No memory of me waiting (and babbling) by the bike path while waiting for ambulance, no memory of ambulance ride, no memory of being rolled in the CT scanner at hospital. It was like the movies: I woke up in some pain and I was lying on a spinal board in hospital bed. I also had a neck brace put on me. My partner and neurological intern was bending over me. My partner asked me a question to test my memory: "When did your father die?"

I was able to specify correctly: 2 wks. ago. Then I cried and said my father was no longer around. That he was dead. My partner was relieved because he told me, my memory was finally coming back.

Jack, my partner, said that after the collision, I got up and sort of walked. I was talking and repeating, repeating some sentences. This is why Jack was uncertain if there was anything wrong with me. But bystanders and he had 911 call placed. There was an off-duty police officer and someone who seemed to have first response experience in calming me down and keeping me warm. I don't remember any of this.

Anyway, my sister-emergency medicine doctor explained to me that: immediately after a concussion accident, sometimes a person's short term memory is lost temporarily...that what you said to me, I wouldn't have remembered what you said at all. Also me looking at a person, but not seeing nor retaining visual memory right at that moment. In otherwise: I was a walking, talking robot, not undersanding anything nor even retaining visual understanding/memory of what I was seeing in front of my face.

Every few hrs. for 24 hrs., hospital staff asked me a series of same questions to test my memory.


I had my memory back but first month, even reading a computer screen was exhausting, scrolling screen up and down was too much. Physicians request that there be no computer screen time for first few wks. (this will vary, depending on severity). Not even iPhone. I was dizzy for first 2 months ...to point I got dizzy just turning slowly in kitchen to chop food. So Jack did 90% of food preparation and grocery shopping for lst 2 months.

My recovery included walking for 1/2 hr. with Jack daily. So we went to coffee shop. I could not even walk at night over snow and ice. During my recovery, I noticed when I would jog down a grocery aisle to find something quickly, I got slightly dizzy: it was because of all the different colours and shapes on shelves whizzing by. My physician told me that some patients are just dizzy being in a room with wallpaper designs.

I was back on bike in June 2015 and commuting to work. At this stage I was back to work full-time. But I was on disability leave for lst few months.

For Nandy:
I have never been a cycling competitor. I have never cycled with drop down handlebars. For last few years, probably cycle at a reasonable speed ..but under 18 km./hr. I don't time myself much..I just know how long it takes me to do xxxx distance to xxxx destination. I've been a cyclist, car-free for nearly last 24 yrs. I have done several multi-wk. cycling tours with my own loads over the years. I will be 57 this yr.

Because I don't drive, then I rely on my own mobility to walk, cycle or take transit. Hence, I do have to ensure I reduce risks. ....not just for health and fitness, but for work and shopping. Sometimes my partner is somewhere else because we have 2 homes. So I do need to be able-bodied to do stuff solo too.
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Here is gratitude for our brain: Our brain works SO HARD for us. Our brain is the command control center for everything that we do. It controls every step we make, every movement, our speech, vision, it regulates other bodily functions, etc.

Sure, anecdotes are fine, I'm not saying that you shouldn't use a helmet in non-competitive situations- just that enormous blanket statements insinuating that everyone in all riding situations everywhere must wear one is unhelpful, and in some ways actually harms cycling. In other anecdotes, I know more people who suffered TBIs from walking than from cycling, and probably 80% of people I know are cyclists.

I also realize the choice is massively dependent on conditions, and if most of us here live in North America, the roads are usually very hostile to us. It took me years of full-time riding in Boston to get comfortable without a helmet (and only after visiting Amsterdam where it clicked that it makes so much sense and that's how I want to live, and followed up on relevant research and started actively fighting for sensible urban planning), but Buffalo is different because the drivers here are so much more negligent and the infrastructure is so abysmal- but they're normally speeding so fast I'm unlikely to survive in the event of a crash anyway, foam hat or not. We need real solutions in this country, helmets can help individuals in some specific situations but it's a distraction from the actual issue.

From an individual perspective, it makes sense to reduce your personal risk in small way possible, especially because we're such an out group in this country- simply waiting for adequate laws and infrastructure isn't going to cut it. From a societal perspective, helmet fixation is generally used by anti-cycling groups (like automakers) to make cycling seem ultra-dangerous and to scare people away from it, and becomes a band-aid to shift responsibility to cyclists instead of working for solutions that will actually increase safety, further discouraging people to ride (as well as greatly increasing the risk for the riders out there- safety in numbers). This http://http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html is a great little overview of the misconceptions and ways from a societal standpoint in which excessive pressure to wear helmets can be harmful.

But anyway, to get back to the original post- comparing all forms of cycling to MMA fighting or headbutting each other in football and mocking "the bike helmet debate" just serves to exacerbate this dangerous trend. To the people accusing me of derailing this thread: its title is "Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?". Are concussions bad? Yes. You should try to avoid them. Are repeated concussions a frequent, unavoidable, and inherent quality to all forms of cycling, comparable to intentionally punching each other in the head like boxing? No, of course not. This is ridiculous. Seriously, take a little vacation to pretty much any place in continental Europe, it'll change your life and put things in perspective.https://youtu.be/ZMv3OB6XHvQ

This is ridiculous. Seriously, take a little vacation to pretty much any place in continental Europe, it'll change your life and put things in perspective.https://youtu.be/ZMv3OB6XHvQ

Sure. I have already for 4 wks. We brought our bikes along and cycling : Germany, France, Prague (cycling infrastructure is more like North American cities) and 5 days in Copenhagen. My partner headed up the Velo-city 2012 cycling conference in Vancouver. It's only been North America twice. He's been working hard (volunteer work) on cycling infrastructure matters in Vancouver and Toronto with the municipality for past 20 years when we lived there (well, he's still involved in Vancouver). Out of his own money, my partner did 3 additional cycling trips in Spain, different parts of Germany and France .....where part of the time was spent documenting cycling infrastructure and bikeshares there.

He and I are talking about a trip abroad to celebrate our 25th anniversary. Not sure if it's this year or whenever.

I've fallen off my bike 9 times in my cycling years. Except for concussion accident, other times, I was on ice and was cycling super slow (10 km./hr.) because I knew it was ice..but realized it was too late. So I fell over in slow motion but luckily never on my head/face. Thankfully no other cyclists and cars were around. My 8 falls had nothing to do with lack of cycling infrastructure or anyone else. It was weather related and my own judgement. I'm mortal, fallible and imperfect.

Best wishes, Nandy.

I didn't mean you, specifically. It seems like way too many Americans don't know how much better it is elsewhere and I frequently get that "whoa, you ride a bike to get around town? You're so XTREME". Like I emphasized earlier, choosing to use a helmet can be a beneficial personal decision, particularly if you're prone to falls. It's when people get into that whole "everyone on any bike at any time must wear a helmet because it's exactly as dangerous as MMA fighting" that I start to question their research and intentions. Besides, the great thing abut bikes in bad conditions is that you're already going a manageable speed and are pretty safe, compared to other modes of transport (see that video of winter commuting in Utrecht I posted up there).

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Originally Posted by Eden

Ya know… I recently read that it is more often than not it is pointless to try to talk someone out of viewpoint…. worse yet that often, in perverse opposition to reason, presenting a person with facts only entrenches them more strongly in their beliefs… so I'm going to remember that this was a discussion primarily about intentionally participating in sports where concussion is likelihood or even an inevitability and not about mandatory helmet wearing on bike rides (even if it was peripherally compared to that debate).

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Eden, I read something fascinating recently from Dan Ariely, the human behaviour guy. He wrote about what happens when someone with a strong opinion on something is confronted with an extreme opinion *in the same direction*. The tendency was for them to be more conciliatory, and more open to changing their minds. Which is really weird.

And FWIW, I've gotten so mellow with the years that the only bike-related thing that makes me froth at the mouth any more is bike salmon. I bike as I please, and you bike as you please, but if I catch you biking upstream on *my* side I swear I will scream at you ;-)

That reminds me of this great video (http://http://www.vox.com/2015/12/1/...m-mansplainers) about a famous math problem that most people have a natural inclination to guess wrong on. Even when the correct answer was explained to people only a few more changed their minds, but that number grew significantly when they were encouraged to conduct their own experiments on it.

I'm a firm believer that presenting people with well-documented facts and opportunities to do more research can influence public opinion. Growing up in this culture, I used to unquestioningly wear helmets, just because that seemed like the right thing to do. When my husband stopped wearing one at work a few years ago, I was concerned. Looking at facts helped me understand how helmets actually function, how they're useful and when, how they're made, what they'll actually protect against, how laws and peer pressure to wear them affect people, and more effective ways to make cycling safer among many other things. People need information to make informed decisions. There is no single correct answer. Without information, people tend to make irrational choices based on their unexamined feelings or what has become basically folklore.

Ride smart!

I am definitely not frothing at the mouth, because I will choose to do what I do, and others will choose for themselves, in this case.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

I'm mortal, fallible and imperfect.

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:) indeed, as we all are…..and we do need more infrastructure advocates like your partner and you!

I see some of the best european cities for bicycling as those who have put the onus on society to provide a safe environment to ride in, Amsterdam and Copenhagen being good examples. Then there are also a lot of cities like central London and Rome where you have to learn how not to die. With good infrastructure you can also have more car drivers also being cyclists thus being more positive about bicycling issues, again like in Amsterdam etc. There are also some U.S. and Canadian cities that have done/are doing some really good work on infrastructure and can be used as models for other cities. I guess I just like to be positive about how I see and advocate for bicycling being a legitimate mode of urban mass transportation. I'm sure that being born and raised in France has an important role it that. I also feel that my generation is seeing bicycling as more of a transportation issue rather than just exercise and leisure, which gives me hope.
...being protective of my head, i like my brain, is something i like too. :)

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Originally Posted by lph

but if I catch you biking upstream on *my* side I swear I will scream at you ;-)

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and i've seen the screaming at someone riding the wrong way, in Amsterdam especially :)