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I have to admit I have a hard time with the name "paleo". I wish they had come up with something that fit the concept a little bit better.
My question... :p
Why is beef ok and butter, but not cow's milk? Did my paleo ancestors really churn butter and then clarify it? :D
Veronica
No, they definitely did not. I seriously doubt a woolly mammoth would give up milk without killing the milk-maid in the process! ;)
The beef fat is really only OK if it comes from a grass-fed source. In that case, the fat profile is healthier for you (and consequently, closer to a wild animal). Today's feed-lot beef is not OK, which is why, in those cases, leaner cuts are recommended. Feeding cattle on mostly corn (and then pumping them full of antibiotics to keep them alive) creates a very unhealthy ratio of Omega-6 to Omega-3 fats leading to a whole host of problems in both the cattle and in the humans who consume it.
I try to be realistic - if I eat a fatty cut, I only do it from grass-fed sources (which are luckily easy to find for me...but expensive). If I'm eating out, for example, then I'll stick to leaner cuts or choose some other type of meat.
Butter is only OK because once you clarify it, the only thing left is the fat. If the fat comes from a pastured source, then again, the fat profile is correct and therefore not really any different from the fat off the animal itself. The rest of the dairy makeup is not as easy to digest, so it should be avoided.
Personally, we still eat raw dairy. We use the raw goats milk from our goats and I do buy raw milk cheeses on occasion. The general belief is that the good bacteria and microbes in the raw milk make it easier to digest (which we know is true based on how my lactose intolerant husband handles raw products compared to commercial dairy). This is a personal choice on our part though as most paleo proponents would shun all dairy.
I also have a hard time with all the coconut products promoted on the diet. I find the coconut craze amongst strict paleo dieters to be kind of hypocritical, actually. I do use some coconut products, but I try to limit them except for occasional treats. Somehow, raw goats milk seems more 'natural' to me than coconut milk that you make in a blender with hot water and coconut meat...but what do I know? :p
The basic idea behind the diet (or the way I look at it) is to remove ALL potential problem foods (grains, dairy, legumes including soy, sugar, etc) for 4 - 6 weeks and then add them back in, one at at time, to find what works for YOU. Everyone is different, so everyone has to find what is optimal for their bodies. Personally, I'm ok with raw dairy but my body does not like coconut flour or brown rice. I think I can digest gluten well enough, but it triggers crazy cravings and food obsession for me...so I avoid it. Sugar too (for the same reasons). What I haven't yet tried are legumes - I'll give those a shot in January and see how I do.
GLC' answer was dietetic, not "paleo".
The Paleo answer is, butter isn't. A true, strict paleo diet doesn't allow butter. Then again, a true strict paleo diet doesn't allow cooking.
My SO is big into the paleo, due to him I've read a couple of books on it, and the "science" is horribly stupid. The very first contention is that we are >9x% genetically identical to cavemen. Well, we are >97% genetically identical to mice and any other mammal you can think of, so forget it. Also, many studies are now showing that dogs aren't domesticated wolves (I really didn't just change topics, I think the dog=wolf argument is more valid than the modern human=caveman argument).
The paleo people I know all allow butter, especially if it's home made. Many also allow beer, but not oats (my SO doesn't, too his credit).
The addition of butter comes from the expansion of the "paleo" concept to "neolithic" times - when hunter/gatherers started switching to a more agricultural-like lifestyle (but wasn't there quite yet).
The good thing about the paleo diet really is the low carbness of it (I just made up a word, I'm so proud). Some strict paleo folks I know don't allow tomatoes as having too many carbs (~5 g/whole medium tomato), or green beans, or a number of veggies.
Due to my SO, I've gone somewhat paleo, but I refuse to eat all of the fat that's "allowed", including butter, and I eat fruit and any type of veggie I want, they can all stuff their paleo rules.
Well I'm excited to try some of the recipes in Paleo Comfort Foods book, just to add some variety to my cooking. But the list of things to have in your kitchen seemed a bit odd, hence my question.
They really should have called it The Avoid All the Crap That May Give You Health Problems diet. I suppose that's not as catchy.
Have you made the egg muffins yet? It says they can be frozen, but doesn't say how to reheat them.
Veronica
On another note - got my tri bible yesterday. I'm on chapter 4. It makes so much more sense to me now!
Wow, you know some crazy paleo people! How would beer ever be ok? That's grain based!Quote:
Originally Posted by TsPoet
The info I gave is paraphrased from the recent literature on it predominantly by Robb Wolf and originally Loren Cordain. I don't know that either of them really want to emulate what our paleolithic ancestors ate. Their take is that we take what they ate as a guide or starting point, and then update it to be the healthiest we can be using modern food availability and recent research. Personally, I get the idea of trying to be as healthy as possible. I don't get the idea of eating like a cavemen just because we are descendant from cavemen. That argument does not hold water with me at all.
Of course, eating food raw (including meat) would be more accurate, but there is something to be said for having a diet that is enjoyable and sustainable (from a 'eat this way for life' perspective). No diet is worth diddly if one can't stick to it for the long term, right?
V - There are quite a number of good cookbooks recently released. Some are stricter than others so you have to read ingredients and take from them what works best for you. I have the Paleo Comfort Foods and I've made a few things from it, all but one of which have been really good. I haven't tried any of the breakfast type foods though. The chili from that book is excellent, by the way.
My tri book doesn't arrive until tomorrow, but I bet I have it totally read by Tuesday! ;)
Of all of my SO's books, this is my favorite. I've liked everything he's made out of it so far (but would make some changes, like adding green chili or something to the Scotch Eggs).
http://www.amazon.com/Well-Fed-Paleo...5184036&sr=1-1
GLC - yeah, I guess I couldn't get past the first page of ALL of the books. I think most people, like you, are more reasonable and read over the pseudo science BS and get to the nutritional 'value' of the diet. I just couldn't do that because I get stuck that way.
Also, most of my "paleo" friends are also crossfitters, so the beer and some of it comes from more of a crossfit mentality than a paleo mentality.
I admit I've just read fleetingly about it, but I thought the idea was that the diet humans had existed on for the longest time should be the most healthy, because that's the diet our bodies have had most time to evolve and adapt to. Or have I got it wrong?
I have a few quibbles with this, because evolution doesn't necessarily favour the best possible state of health, it just weeds out the worst cases. So as long as you stayed healthy enough long enough to have as many kids as the Joneses, fat or skinny, your genes were in the running, so to speak :p
Testing it out gradually and updating it with modern knowledge sounds smart. I like Veronicas name for it!
Ah, those pesky crossfitters! ;) They really have done a number on the things they embrace (first the zone diet, now paleo) - it's that totally 'gung-ho' attitude of theirs! (not that there is anything wrong with that, but everyone must consider the source)
Well Fed looks really good. I got my copy a couple of weeks ago, but haven't cooked from it yet. It is by far the best of the books I have in terms of usability in that it shows suggestions for additions/alterations, it shows quantities, the descriptions are great, etc. I also really like Make it Paleo - particularly for the 'treats' but so far, we've liked everything we've tried from it. I have also had good luck with Everyday Paleo for the recipes (I didn't even read the rest of the book!) but the food photography isn't great so it's not as enticing of a book. Every single recipe we've tried (even the ones I was unsure about) turned out delicious though.
lph - yeah, that's basically it. The idea is that for ~2.5 million years, early humans ate like this. It's only been in the last ~10,000 years that agriculture has evolved and in terms of time for a species to adapt, 10K years is only a drop in the bucket. Therefore, we are still mostly adapted to eat like the paleolithic people ate. While I'm OK with that as a starting point, it is important to take modern science (sometimes with a grain of salt!) and common sense in today's world into consideration. I mean, half of the plant life and almost all the animal life now on the planet is totally different from what it was then...so we have to be realistic about it.
V - I like your name, too! In fact, if you do eat this way and end up having conversations with people about it, it tends to go MUCH smoother if you don't use the word paleo at all. "Paleo" is like 'Atkins' or "low carb" in that it generates a lot of preconceived notions in people's heads - some right and some wrong.
By the way, I'm teasing about the crossfitters. I have a lot of good friends in real life who are very into crossfit, so I hold no malice towards them! They are just a very enthusiastic group and when they embrace something, they tend to go whole hog on it. I'm happy they have embraced Paleo as it has really brought it into the forefront and made most of these awesome new cookbooks come to light! :)
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
I had trouble losing my last 7-10 lbs. Adopted the basic tenets of this eating plan. Dropped the weight. Felt fantastic. And after about 90% of my workouts, I had no to minimal muscle pain. I had the best year of competition in my life.
I basically allow little to no processed food. Enjoy an alcoholic beverage now and then and the ocassional treat. As with all things, you need to find what works for you.
As for CrossFit - love it but the metcon workouts totally killed my 2010 year. When I get back to it (after the broken ankle heals) my goal is to be the last one completing the WOD. And I will wear my HRM to ensure I stay aerobic!
Too late, now I'm not talking to you :pQuote:
Originally Posted by GLC1968
I do crossfit inconsistently. I got kicked out of the first CF gym I went to - kicked out! why, because I didn't grunt, yell, and act like a He-woman. The CF gym I switched to is oddly mellow for a CF gym. I have a love/hate relationship with both CF and Paleo. CF is too cultish, doesn't think enough (about things like form), and just too macho for me. I'm too old and fat and I think could really hurt myself doing CF.
Some paleo is good, and I'm trying to do more of it, but not going whole-hog.
Supposedly you are to use Ghee instead of butter. I use butter, but sparingly. I follow the diet pretty closely. I think the thing that makes it work is the low carbs plus the fat - you feel full and happy all day even without the quick fix sugar rush from the carbs. I have to be really careful when I cycle because if I start eating carbs again, it can be hard for me to stop. Thank goodness the holidays are almost over.
I started eating this way though because I found out I have celiac disease and a friend introduced me to it. Now he's trying to get me to go completely raw... and I just don't think I have the time or energy for that. This works for me. I've never felt so good in my life.
And while the dogs are not wolves (and thus humans are not cavepeople) argument is totally valid - as a side point, they have also found that high protein diets in dogs (and cats especially) with low carbs and no grains are better for them too. Especially seniors - they used to feed protein/fat restricted diets to seniors but lo and behold now we have found that they actually need more protein and fat to maintain muscle tone and brain function.
I just want to be as healthy as I can for as long as I can with as few drugs in my system as possible.
Interesting about the dogs. My elderly dog has an irritable bowel and I worry about her getting enough protein on the bulky diet that she seems to need.Quote:
Originally Posted by westtexas
About the dogs...two months after we started eating paleo, we switched our dogs to a grain-free food. We had already switched to a high end food, so the grain-free version was only a slight step up in terms of cost for us. It's expensive, but the dogs are so clearly thriving on it that we feel it is worth it.
Both dogs have lost weight without any need to restrict their eating. They LOVE the food and gobble it up even near the end of the bag where that wasn't the case before. And the part that is truly amazing to me is that our oldest dog (who is only 7, so not really OLD) has had hip problems his whole life and he has recently started to improve. We considered surgery about 5 years ago, but decided to try glucosamine for a bit instead. It helped him, he didn't seem to be in pain and he got around ok so we kept up with it. Since he's been paleo? No need for the supplements anymore! He's even MORE active now without the pills. I really think it's the diet (and partially, the weight loss). He appears so incredibly healthy and vibrant now. We've even transitioned our new puppy to the puppy version of the food too.
Our kitties went paleo three years ago because Tucker was a fat one year old with no energy. He's still a bit tubby, but has LOTS of energy!
Veronica
I keep toying with this, too.
I wouldn't have a problem with giving up dairy, as long as I could find a sub for the good cheese I eat for snacks. I don't drink milk.
I *would* find it difficult to not have whole wheat grains some of the time. I have pretty much cut out most white flour stuff and I hardly eat dessert. But, I do eat Luna Bars for snacks on work days, because they are easy for me to eat in the car! I love good whole wheat bread or bagels. Don't eat tons of it, but...
Don't think I could give up wine.
About 8 years ago DH wanted to lose some weight before we went on vacation to AZ. I supported him by doing a low carb/low glycemic eating plan for 3 months. We weren't super strict, but we did pretty well, after the initial 2 week period that was very hard. I lost 5 lbs and DH lost 10. I don't work out at the same level as some of you, in that I am not "training" for events, but I do do something 6 days a week. Is it worth it? My weight is fairly stable, but I'd love to get it down another 2-3 lbs., so I have more wiggle room.
Try Lära Bars, they are grain free. I avoid Luna bars because of the processed soy protein anyway.
I'd like to do more raw and less grain, but not make a radical change all at once. Ack, I don't do New Year's resolutions! Why can't I be thinking of this last month or next month. :p
Because most changes that stick aren't radical resolution-type ones anyway. ;) You just happen to have the time to think them over around now.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
I like to have New Year's plans rather than resolutions. As in, in 2012 I'd like to try x, y or z. I can start today or tomorrow or in May or September, or later, or never. Or a little now, and a little more later...
It always seems to me that the point of any Diet with a Name is to sell books and other products.
While I think the Paleo Diet is just another way for people to make money....Quote:
Originally Posted by GLC1968
I wanted to point out that you may be allergic to coconut. I am horribly allergic to coconut and to soy.
I have to note that the bike hermit would die on the paleo diet and I lost 25 pounds and kept if off for 30 years once I started eating like the bike hermit - which is primarily veggies, fruit and -GASP - Pasta. We eat meat maybe once a week and rarely eat meat when bike touring.
Again, eating a balanced diet of healthy foods goes a long way, now if I can cut down on my beer intake...:o
For those of you surprised at how well your cat/dog does on the high protein diets, can I just point out that these are carnivorous species evolved to eat other animals not plants. Cats are more obligate carnivores than dogs, they do not have the enzymes necessary to fully digest starch. Humans on the other hand are evolutionarily omnivores, like pigs, evolved to eat anything available both animal and vegetable in origin. The trick is finding the right balance. And from the little experence I have of anthropology, I don't think paleolithic people necessarily got it right all the time either seeing as many of the remains found show signs of disease, malnutrition, stunted growth...
It may be a coconut sensitivity, true. I'm fine with coconut oil and shredded or flaked coconut, but when you eat those things, it's typically in really small quantities. Coconut flour is so processed into something not even resembling a coconut and when consumed, it's in a much more highly concentrated quantity. That might be why it gets to me, I don't know. It's easy enough to avoid though, so I don't sweat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky King
The paleo diet has a name purely because that's what someone decided to call it and it stuck. There is no official licence on the word like there is on South Beach or Atkins or Weight Watchers and there are no "paleo" branded foods on the shelves of your supermarket. In fact, depending on which books you read, there are lots of names for it (Primal, Neanderthin, Paleo Diet, Paleo Solution, etc) so I really don't think it's a marketing tactic. Who exactly is making money? Bloggers? Cookbook authors? Somehow, I doubt they are going to retire on their salaries. ;)
I should also point out that while I love it and how it makes me feel about food, I recognize that this diet is not a miracle or anything. I mean, if you are celiac and didn't know it, then the switch may seem like a miracle, I'm sure. But for those of us who chose to eat this way for non-medical reasons, it's just another way of eating. No different than vegan or vegetarian or any other chosen way to eat. What I don't understand is why there is such an obvious bias against the diet from non-paleo people. I know that most paleo proponents are super gung-ho and highly annoying, but that is no reason to dismiss the way someone chooses to eat. :confused:
Anyway, I'm not directing this at anyone here in particular, just my general observations. It's why I hesitate to even use the word paleo in casual conversation anymore!
I have a cat who had terrible irritable bowel issues when I first got her, so I put her on a raw meat diet. Cleared that problem right up! These days I'm too lazy to keep up the raw diet but I only feed her canned food that is all meat, no grain or fillers. It costs a lot but she does okay on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfinch
I think I'll talk to my vet about options again. My dog is very eldery, 16 years old, and so far seems to need a very bulky diet or she has issues. I feed her a fair amount of canned pumpkin which she really like and seems to help. But she has been struggling again lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoGrrl
I don't know so much about feeding dogs, but I found tons of info about rawfeeding cats on the internet. There is a Yahoo newsgroup "Rawcats" and there is a companion one, "Rawdogs" or some name like that. It seems like a lot of people have negative experiences with vets regarding raw diets: a lot of vets disagree with them and push the commercial food, particularly the "prescription" diets. I think the pet food industry (including the medical "prescription" Science Diet) is just as bad as Big Pharma in terms of influencing the profession. I am a firm believer that animals should be fed as they are evolved to eat, and luckily my vet was supportive of putting Little Kitty on a raw diet.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfinch
Labels for a diet aren't always useful, since sometimes people cannot faithfullly follow a 'type' of diet for the next.....few decades, unless they are celiac or diabetic, etc.Quote:
It's why I hesitate to even use the word paleo in casual conversation anymore!
Even the vegetarians I know face to face, have modified their diets over the years.
Unfortunately, dogs were evolved to be dogs, with the hand of man substantially involved. I am still not convinced at all that raw feeding is appropriate for dogs, especially my elderly dog, but I need to read more on what might be best for her. I started here:Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoGrrl
To begin with, the concept of “evolutionary nutrition” ignores the simple fact that taxonomy and phylogeny are not destiny, nor do they reliably predict the specific details of a species’ biology, including its nutritional needs. Sure, dogs are in the order Carnivora, but so are giant pandas, which are almost exclusively herbivorous. Functionally, dogs are omnivores or facultative carnivores, not obligate carnivores, and they are well-suited to an omnivorous diet regardless of their taxonomic classification or ancestry.
Domestic dogs did branch off from a wolf ancestor, and current DNA evidence suggests this occurred some 100,000-135,000 years ago.2,3 Though the data are unclear as to what morphologic or ecological changes might have occurred following this initial divergence, and while it is likely that there was much ongoing genetic exchange between dogs and wolves even after they diverged, it is still the case that dogs have not been wolves for a very long time. However, a distinct phenotypic divergence of dogs and wolves followed the development of more sedentary agricultural habits by many human groups some 10-15,000 years ago, which placed new selection pressures on our canines companions.31 Since then numerous anatomic and behavioral changes that have occurred first as a result of living with humans and sharing our food. And even more dramatic changes have been wrought on dogs in the last about 3000 years as a consequence of intensive selective breeding. Domestic dogs exhibit many features of neoteny, the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood. They have smaller and less robust skulls and dentition, and numerous features of their skeleton, GI tract, and other anatomic structures are significantly different from wolves.
* * *
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...make-you-barf/
Cats, I don't have a clue.
It makes more sense that cats would benefit from a raw diet, since they're obligate carnivores.
I imagine it's one of those things: Some dogs probably do quite well on a raw diet (of some kind) if its human does their homework, and some may not. Depends on the dog--I've met one that will turn its nose up at meat and will go absolutely crazy for fruits and vegetables.
Yeah, like I said, I don't know so much about dogs. I know dogs are not obligate carnivores and can live on all kinds of different food, whereas cats absolutely need meat. I don't think dogs need an all-raw diet, but I do think that 99% of commercial pet food is crap. Neither dogs or cats should eat a diet of dried kibble; it resembles nothing in nature they are evolved to eat. My mom feeds her dog a home made diet based on a mix she buys commercially and cooks with water (it's like an oatmeal kind of stuff, with dried veggies and stuff in it), and adds some veggies (canned green beans), cooked meat (usually ground turkey), and raw eggs. He's a very spry and healthy 12-year-old dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfinch
Unless your dog has been off raw too long and is sensitive, it is the way to go. But, dogs also need veggies - their stomachs aren't as used to processing veggies - so you need to grind the veggies up. The bones are also important, meat, veggies, bones all ground up. I feed my guys raw for dinner and kibble for breakfast. This makes me feel like I've covered the bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoGrrl
I have a 12-15 year old mutt (my avatar is really old!), he was dragging and looking old and I was concerned for him - so nearly 4 years ago I investigated, then started feeding raw. He acts younger now, 4 years later, than he did before raw! His fur is better, as is my shiba-x fur.
My IG has perfect teeth - IGs don't have good teeth - I honestly believe its the raw.
I have lots of friends who use this site when picking food.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/
My guys ether get Evo or Blue Buffalo, and since i primarily feed raw beef, they get salmon or lamb dry food.
I tried making my own raw, and that didn't work for me (yuck!). So, I investigated raw food and, if you live in the Pacific NW, this stuff is great.
http://www.columbiarivernaturalpetfoods.com/
wish they had more veggie options.
yeah, and this all applies to humans as well, IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldfinch
But, I like this discussions here about stripping down your diet the building it back up. TE folks are smarter than my grunting CF friends, who get very angry with me when I try to tell them about their paleo diets.