Is it the Indians or the arrows (new bikes vs. old bikes)?

I bought an old '93 Bianchi, steel-frame, 7 speed road bike from my sister-in-law about 3 years ago so I could ride with my very experienced friend. She rides a custom-built steel-frame 9 speed. She always rides away from me whenever we climb & she keeps telling me "it's not the arrows, it's the Indian". We started spin classes a year ago & I've definitely seen improvement in my performance, but she still shells me on the climbs. Yesterday we did a group ride with the ladies at our spinning gym. Every one of them had $5000+ 10-speed road bikes & once again I was seriously shelled on the climbs & way behind by the end of the ride. I only paid $200 for my old girl & I can't help feeling that maybe in this case it is the arrows. Does it make a difference what bike you're riding or do I really just suck?

I have 3 bikes, and one of them is much faster than the others. Same old Indian. Must be the arrows.

But, the "arrow" is not necessarily the whole bike. You can probably make that bike noticeably faster with just new tires, and better wheels can make a whole lot of difference.

It's not about the bike, and you don't suck. Unless the ole' girl weighs 35 lbs and doesn't fit.

Or your tires are flat. But I've tried that excuse- it doesn't fly.

I think it could go either way. Could be they have an advantage in terms of gears that are better for climbing. Could be they are just in better shape, or better suited physically for climbing and generally riding fast. Could be their bikes are just lighter and made to go faster.

Best way to tell -- borrow one of their bikes, or test ride a new one at an LBS, and see how it goes.

I believe that if you have two equally fit people and one is on a heavier bike, that person will be slower, especially on hills, than the person on the lighter bike. If being slower on hills bothers you, and it seems to, and you aren't in a position to look at new, lighter weight bikes, a new wheelset can make a significant difference. If you do a search on this forum you can find many threads on that topic. The other possible solution is to train so much you are stronger than the other riders :)

I was fortunate enough to be able to buy a new carbon bike late last year. I am faster than I was, but one of my riding friends on an entry level all aluminum bike is still just as fast or faster because she is stronger than I am. I ride just as much or more, but she has always been very athletic and seems to have more muscle mass than I do, at least that is my story, and I'm sticking to it;)

I've had bikes that were slow downhill, so I will vouch that sometimes it is the bike. It could even be the bike fit...for all you know, the bike isn't the right size or isn't set up in a way that will allow you to be your most efficient. Have you been fitted for the one you're riding at a local bike shop?

But sometimes its the rider.

If you guys are about the same size, why not swap for one hill and try? If nothing else, it will be a good experience. I had no idea how uncomfortable my first bike was until I went on vacation and rented one elsewhere. Wow, what a difference!

Oh, and welcome to TE!! :) Good to meet you.

Thanks everybody for the replies! I guess I just needed reaffirmation of what I already knew. We are about the same size & I tried suggesting we switch bikes for a day, but she made an excuse that it wouldn't make any difference! ;) I didn't feel like arguing with her. I didn't know about changing my wheel set out though, thanks for the advice. When you have to struggle with your ego that much on a ride, sometimes it makes me not want to deal with it, but I also realize that's part of the zen that comes from riding & ironically that's exactly why I do it. I have nothing against pushing myself to become stronger, just sometimes it can be demoralizing & I start to question "is this fun?" :confused::D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bombshelter

Thanks everybody for the replies! I guess I just needed reaffirmation of what I already knew. We are about the same size & I tried suggesting we switch bikes for a day, but she made an excuse that it wouldn't make any difference! ;) I didn't feel like arguing with her. I didn't know about changing my wheel set out though, thanks for the advice. When you have to struggle with your ego that much on a ride, sometimes it makes me not want to deal with it, but I also realize that's part of the zen that comes from riding & ironically that's exactly why I do it. I have nothing against pushing myself to become stronger, just sometimes it can be demoralizing & I start to question "is this fun?" :confused::D

---

I believe it to be a combination of the bike and the rider also as many have attested to here. I know for certain that one of my bikes is faster and climbs better than the other. That being said, your commentary about your friend not wanting to switch bikes with you for you to try her's out is a bit telling in itself. I question if this person is a friend, because a friend would want to help a friend along with coaching you up a hill instead of leaving you behind. I imagine that some people could be possessive about their equipment but still, even swapping bikes out for a couple of hills does not seem unreasonable.

Challenging yourself by trying to ride up to a different skill level is fine but continuosly getting smoked by others would be discouraging. You might want to try riding with other groups of people on occasion and you'll know right off where your comfort level is and whether riding with superior riders is helping or hindering you. Riding should be fun and no, you don't suck - you're out there riding a bike and trying to get better at it. With all your training it sounds like you are.

I don't think I would have fun riding with someone who told me repeatedly that she is better than me and nothing I do will make me improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ny biker

I don't think I would have fun riding with someone who told me repeatedly that she is better than me and nothing I do will make me improve.

---

that's the truth!

I definitely climb much slower on my steel Bianchi than on my lightweight carbon tri bike- even tho the Bianchi has better climbing gears- it's just heavier and that makes a difference. But that being said- I'm a sucky climber. I can descend like a crazy woman- but climbing is torture for me (even when I was lighter climbing was difficult).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tri Girl

that's the truth!

I definitely climb much slower on my steel Bianchi than on my lightweight carbon tri bike- even tho the Bianchi has better climbing gears- it's just heavier and that makes a difference. But that being said- I'm a sucky climber. I can descend like a crazy woman- but climbing is torture for me (even when I was lighter climbing was difficult).

---

I will never be a good climber, and I know there will always be people who are faster than me no matter what I do. That doesn't bother me at all. But it doesn't mean that I can't ever get better by changing something about the bike.

what they've all said - a lighter, stiffer bike is easier to move uphill, and light enough gearing makes it possible to keep your cadence down and not blow up going uphill, all of which will make it more fun and inspire you to try harder up hills... :) but fitness still trumps a lot of this. Experience does play a part too, knowing at what level to keep your effort. And some people are just better climbers than others, body weight is often important. I'm a reasonably good climber, but I'm pretty useless on the flats, it's a bit limited how much power I can produce.

But the line between keeping up and not keeping up is pretty fine, so just because they ride away from you on the hills doesn't mean you're a much slower rider unless you're continually barely able to keep up no matter what. On club rides it's pretty common to wait and regroup at the top of hills.

Wow, I don't know that I would enjoy riding with someone less than supportive - takes the fun out of it for me.

There are many factors and these seem to come to light when going up hill.

Rider - some people are better at flats, some at hills, some at downhills. Much depends on what you enjoy, your physical characteristics. Back when, I was okay on flats and such, not necessarily fast relative to the regular friends I rode with. But once we started going uphill, I was in the upper group - I trained for hills and, I guess, my muscle group and weight were more suited to that.

Bike - Given your current state, you would see a difference with a lighter bike. Would it be enough to stay up with the group - can't really say. Many factors on a bike - state of tune (chain, bearings); gearing (are you running out of gears, are you spinning or mashing up hills); tires (I've seen night and day difference just in tires); do you like the bike (the more you like/love your bike, the faster one seems to go - at least for me).

Compare against yourself not others. We are all different, different styles, different strengths. I stopped comparing to others because of that. No matter how much I trained, I could not pull at the speeds some of my friends could, but I did track my own progress and I could see I had improved, say, from point A to point B in time.

On the heavy bike note - My road bike is a 20 pounder and is a race frame. Very fun to ride. My commuter is probably a 30 pounder AND is also fun to ride. I have had guys on light road frames blast by me on the start of my final climb home (about 100' in half mile) only to start slogging about half way up and I go by in my normal, steady RPM at my pace. They either failed to shift or just did not anticipate the effect of the variable pitch of the road and went at it too hard, too soon. I've also been totally left in the dust.

Good luck in your training and improvements - you will get stronger and faster. Find some supportive friends/groups to ride with, that makes so much difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bombshelter

Thanks everybody for the replies! I guess I just needed reaffirmation of what I already knew. We are about the same size & I tried suggesting we switch bikes for a day, but she made an excuse that it wouldn't make any difference! ;) I didn't feel like arguing with her. I didn't know about changing my wheel set out though, thanks for the advice. When you have to struggle with your ego that much on a ride, sometimes it makes me not want to deal with it, but I also realize that's part of the zen that comes from riding & ironically that's exactly why I do it. I have nothing against pushing myself to become stronger, just sometimes it can be demoralizing & I start to question "is this fun?" :confused::D

---

She sounds like a piece of work. I recommend riding alone at least some of the time. It is more Zen; easier to get and stay in your zone. As soon as you ask the question "is this fun" the answer is already "no", because when it is fun, you're not thinking about it. Riding your bike shouldn't be demoralizing, because every ride, you're getting more fit, stronger, faster, healthier. That should be great for your morale! So, it seems the problem is not the bike, or the rider, it's the partner, IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redrhodie

She sounds like a piece of work. I recommend riding alone at least some of the time. It is more Zen; easier to get and stay in your zone. As soon as you ask the question "is this fun" the answer is already "no", because when it is fun, you're not thinking about it. Riding your bike shouldn't be demoralizing, because every ride, you're getting more fit, stronger, faster, healthier. That should be great for your morale! So, it seems the problem is not the bike, or the rider, it's the partner, IMO.

---

Definitely agree with this! I say take a break from riding with her and see how different it feels to ride with someone more supportive!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reesha

Definitely agree with this! I say take a break from riding with her and see how different it feels to ride with someone more supportive!

---

Yes, this! I enjoy riding by myself, and do ride solo most of the time. There are a few people I do enjoy riding with when our schedules work out, and occasionally I participate in club rides but I find myself riding solo then as well ;) I am not all that fast, and that is fine.

Good words that I heard from a 9 year old yesterday

You do NOT have to be fast, but you DO have to have fun

:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Catrin

Good words that I heard from a 9 year old yesterday

You do NOT have to be fast, but you DO have to have fun

:)

---

And 9 year olds know how to have fun- it's all playing to them! Love it!!!

I agree--try riding by yourself at least some of the time. You can find your own pace and you don't have to compare yourself to others. I find I much prefer riding by myself (at least, on my rail-trail), because I'm a little competitive and self-critical and I keep finding faults with myself because I see what other people do. Riding needs to be fun.

I'll echo what everyone else has said--sometimes it's you, sometimes it's the bike. I don't climb well. Why? My bike doesn't quite fit me and is kind of heavy...and I'm not in the best of shape, or particularly light.

I'd say it's a little bit of both.

I had very good cyclists pass me uphills on their heavy 7-speed downhill bikes. Obviously if you are in very very good shape, you can still do great on a crappy bike.

On the other hand, there are hills that I could not climb on my commuter bike because it's too heavy and the geometry just isn't right that I have no problem with on my MTB. A friend of mine once switched his tires for ones that where more suited for downhill trails - he just couldn't get up the hills we used to ride because they where so heavy. So a the bike setup/a good bike does make a difference.

When riding with less experienced riders it usually helps if the slower rider has the better bike. I always ask my riding partners if they want to swap bikes if they are slower than me (most of the times however I am the one that rides the lightest "best" bike so that I can keep up with my male cycling friends). Or I try to stay behind them. Or at least I wait for them every now and then and tell them that they do a great job with such a heavy bike.

What your friend does is not nice and I understand that this isn't fun for you. I am not sure if the bike makes you feel bad or your friend.
If you think that you would enjoy cycling more with a new bike - get one it will be fun :)
If it is more you friend that makes you feel bad, maybe just ride by yourself or with someone else ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bombshelter

I bought an old '93 Bianchi, steel-frame, 7 speed road bike from my sister-in-law about 3 years ago so I could ride with my very experienced friend.

---

oooooh, '93 Bianchi could be or become a very nice bike :D

Only about 1/5th of the weight of the bike is the frame. And I'm guessing yours is steel? My Italian steel road bike's hand made for me by the man whose name is on the frame. There are hills and rides I could not do on my cheap old commuter or namesake Trek 420 old road bike however ....

Your bike has the potential to be as good or better than theirs with legs strengthened by doing the same rides on it.

And you have us ahem :cool: ;) Unless your friend is here too. And if they are "BE NICER TO HER! Remember your first ride?"

Does it fit? Yes? Then ....

Hmmmmm. New wheels are the most cost effective improvement to a bike. Takes weight and more important rotational weight (weight you gotta get going to move) off. the right wheels will make your bike more efficient too.

Whatcha got on that sweet steel Bianchi :cool:

Just go to your LBS and try out a few bikes; you'll definitely see that a bike can make a difference! I was shocked (shocked, I tell you, just shocked!! :D ) at how easy climbing up a hill was on one bike I was test-riding in comparison to a couple of other bikes I tried. Same hill (one near the LBS), completely different experiences.

So sure, Indian counts, but so does the arrow.

I didn't mean it to come across that my friend was discouraging. So just for the record, the opposite is true. She's helped me many a time to get up some really steep climbs. She's just unwilling to switch bikes with me. This whole thing comes down to a struggle with my own ego. Even the ladies with their newer bikes would wait for me at the top of the hills & some even hung back with me to keep me company. I came to the conclusion yesterday that quite frankly, I am not willing to put in the work required to keep up with these other ladies on their newer bikes & that's purely my decision & has nothing to do with them. So if it's not fun for me to keep up with them, i just won't ride with them. No big deal. Or I'll just bring my iPod next time! I do love my S.O.B. (Sweet Old Bianchi) & enjoy riding her very much and the only person that can make you happy is yourself :D

So that's it, I'm done whining now ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bombshelter

Or I'll just bring my iPod next time!

---

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but please reconsider that. It's unsafe to ride on the road and not be able to hear cars come up behind you (or even other cyclists calling out that they are passing, a chasing dog behind you, etc.) iPods are great for the gym, but please leave it at home while riding on the road. Enjoy the sounds of nature instead!

There's also technique.
I got a whole lot stronger on hills when I learned to focus on making my stroke efficient all the way around the circle -- "round and round, not up and down" was what the lady said on the video we were watching doing an indoor ride in February. I remember physics class and learning that the forces work best if they're pushing perpendicular, so I practiced... and it really made a difference on hills.
Your friend might really be trying to encourage -- get you to accept that it's okay not to be Queen of the Hills. Still, the whole philosophy that talents are Set In Stone holds a whole lot of people back (including the good athletes, who are sure it's their talent behind success, not technique and hard work).
When I added the Xtracycle extension to my bike, alas, I was no longer the person who charged by people on the uphills. Now I'm the one lagging (unless it's a really long hill)... and my ego misses it... but I can always get out the 7.5FX if I *want* to and whoopeeee!:P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bombshelter

She's just unwilling to switch bikes with me.

---

Few people will. :o I hesitate to let anyone else ride my road bike, heck, I don't even like strangers touching it :rolleyes:. Three TE'ers though have ridden my bike. All 3 are riders who I know/trust their bike handling skills .... and are my size. When you're 5' nuthin there are few choices out there. So when a few "height challenged", skilled riders are together and there's an opportunity for each to try a Seven :eek: a full custom Mondonico (mine) and a lovingly refurbed/upgraded Bianchi :) there will be test rides.

What I found out is that all 3 are great bikes, but I like mine best.

New bikes are not necessarily better than old.
More expensive bikes not necessarily better than less etc.

Fit means a lot, technique too. But seriously if your bike fits you well you absolutely can have a much better bike. We'd be glad to coach you through the remodel.

After all we get all the fun of a rebuild ... with your money. ;)

Hmm... She didn't want you to ride her bike. She has to be aware that she has a nicer bike. Or maybe just a more expensive one. But seems like letting you try her bike will either confirm that the extra $4,800 is worth it or she really can kick ***. Seems like a no brainer because she wins either way. And you get to try a nice bike.
I'd ask again...
S

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sarahkonamojo

Hmm... She didn't want you to ride her bike. She has to be aware that she has a nicer bike. Or maybe just a more expensive one. But seems like letting you try her bike will either confirm that the extra $4,800 is worth it or she really can kick ***. Seems like a no brainer because she wins either way. And you get to try a nice bike.
I'd ask again...
S

---

But only if it is the right size!

I'd happily change bikes with my friend who's riding a mountain bike and way slower than me, but she's about 4" taller than me. My munchkin road bike just wouldn't work AT ALL for her. :D

Honest...I didn't pay attention to this thread....because of the phrasing of Indians and arrows.

It turned me off.

I've never heard of that expression before... I have nothing else to add.

You have a point. I must admit I avoided the thread for a bit thinking the same thing. I got that it'd be bikes and I thought long and hard about the expression (never heard it before either).

I'm not Native American myself so I can't speak to how I'd feel if I was one. And it's not one for me to say "oh, that was harmless" If I was would I feel hurt? Maybe. Unwelcome here? Maybe. Or bemused by a cycling group using an analogy that hunting by traditional ways takes much individual skill, attention to tools and more. Hope so. :o

I can't speak for the OP or the group but as a long term TE'er I hope nobody here took offense. Few places in cycberspace do as much to be welcoming to all, are sensitive to nuance and fast to catch and discuss this kind of stuff. Thanks Shootingstar for bringing this up.

It's why I stick around and hope everyone here will too. :)

The original poster is pretty new around here.

I gotta another story which I'll post as separate topic/thread.

Welp, I had a pause at the title, too -- by itself and out of context it clearly says "it's the attributes of the user of the tool that's more important than the tool" -- I'm afraid I sat briefly pondering whether it woudl have been more or less jarring to say "Native American" instead of "Indian," then went back to the policy of It's Never Good To Ever Ever Ever Say Anything About Someone's Heritage Or Maternal Unit.

And 'round here, they say "it's not the chassis, it's the motor" -- BUT the same motor on a faster bike is ... faster! And a lighter bike will go up hills ... faster! And... it might be worth searching for "how to attack hills."

So Sayeth this Flatland Fool :) :)

In regard to the title of the post and being culturally sensitive, those words are a quote from her riding friend, not the original poster. I suppose the original poster could have used different phrasing to make the same point, but she quoted her friend. I didn't take any offense to it.

i wouldn't expect anyone to match my pace on a hill. they can wait for me at the top. From experience, it is really really hard to climb a hill at a slower speed than your own. Basically, it means I mash my way up instead of spinning my way up.

As for loaning out a bike... Her friend probably has her own pedals, etc that don't match whatever the pedals are on the bianchi. Her friend's probably fitted to her bike and doesn't want to ride an entire ride on a bikethat doesn't fit her. I have loaned out bikes - I let TxDoc borrow my litespeed to ride when we were out here, and we swapped the pedals, seat height, flipped the stem, and moved the spacers. NOt a big deal - it did take me a few rides to tweak it back into "my position" that I was comfortable with. I did that knowing that TxDoc was a skilled rider and was unlikely to crash or scratch up my bike or carbon compoenents. But if I go with someone who isn't as good of a rider, no, I don't let them borrow my fancy road bikes with carbon components, because I've got to replace a bike that's worth thousands. They can borrow my steel frame, they can borrow my mountain bike... but I'll cry if they drop my bike and my carbon handlebars break.

Maybe her friend would have a different view about swapping bikes for just one or two hills to see the comparision.

As for the indian arrow thing... count up the number of teeth on your front crankset and let us know if it's a double vs. triple. Then count up the teeth on your back cassette... It may be that you have a standard double and huge gears, and you'd benefit from adjusting your bike so that it has more climbing gears. Your friend probably does have better climbing gears. She also has years more experience with changing gears and biking in general, and that really does make a differnce for climbing. A few years ago, I was horrible on hills... I'm still not great, but even if I take the winter off cycling... I still can climb a hill in a reasonably competant manner 'cause I've got better hill climbing skills than before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bombshelter

I bought an old '93 Bianchi, steel-frame, 7 speed road bike from my sister-in-law about 3 years ago so I could ride with my very experienced friend. She rides a custom-built steel-frame 9 speed. She always rides away from me whenever we climb

---

Here it is. I knew it was somewhere. There are quite a few TE'ers who ride a Bianchi. Some of these are classic 80's, 90's. They clean up quite nicely :)

http://www.sersale.org/bianchi/

I experienced this situation in reverse a couple of days ago. I purchased a fairly high end road bike in Nov. and rode with a couple of friends for the first time with the new bike on Tuesday. They have more entry level road bikes and, after commenting on my new one and asking if it was carbon, proceeded to discuss how it was the engine not the chassis, (or some similar terminology) and it would be silly for them to upgrade implying, of course, that it was silly for me to upgrade since I could have just worked harder like them.

I just smiled. I know they didn't mean to disparage my decision to get my bike, which was purely a luxury purchase for me. They just weren't thinking - and many of us do not far too often- of the full implications of their words.

To some extent they were probably just squashing their jealousy over your nice new ride.

I have found that upgrading to a bike with a better fit/geometry does make me a better rider - position does matter. If that bike is carbon vs. steel vs. aluminum, it affects my comfort levels on the bike. IF I'm comfortable on the bike, I am more likely to ride it long distances - and that's worth a ton of money to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataboo

IF I'm comfortable on the bike, I am more likely to ride it long distances - and that's worth a ton of money to me.

---

*1,000. I'd rather ride a $200 bike that fits than a $5,000 bike that does not. You're faster when you're more comfortable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cataboo

To some extent they were probably just squashing their jealousy over your nice new ride.

---

That would be completely true of me. I tell myself its the "engine" all the time because I can't afford the upgrade. Grits--sorry the other girls made the comment though. Jealousy is a personal issue--not something to be put on others or to squelch their fun and joy!