WSD steel/making it fit (long, lots of ?s)

I've started window shopping for my next "fun" bike. Just poking around, not committing to anything. I'm planning on doing some test rides in March or April.
I've got aluminum, carbon and steel frames on my list. I don't see many steel bikes out there, so I have a few questions. I'm less concerned about the ride or behavior of steel (steel ranks higher than carbon on my list!), and more concerned about fit logistics, and a few other things.
1) I've already got the Jamis Quest on my list. Are there any other women-specific steel frames out there?
2)Barring (or not) a "yes" to the first question: I'm a typical candidate for a WSD bike--long legs, short torso. The reach on my current (WSD) bike is a little long (TTT ~54cm). Can any of you provide comment on fitting a unisex bike to a "WSD" body? I'm specifically thinking of a couple of Surly's offerings.
This segues into my next question:
3) At what point, would you say, would it make more sense to order the frame (or frame+fork, if possible) and build it up yourself? I'm thinking, again, of the Surly(s), since the standard components for a complete bike are Tiagra. Technically an upgrade for me, but I want something nicer for a second road bike. I'd also want shallower bars, short-reach shifters and a triple crankset...

I know a lot of this hinges on whether either the Jamis or the Surly(s) fit me (or can be made to.) Thanks for reading, and I look forward to your feedback!

Terry makes steel WSD bikes with shorter top tube lengths & 73-74 degree seat tube angles. Shallow bars & short reach levers are standard for them. The Isis Sport is available with a triple. The price on their website is for Ultegra, but they'll build it up with 105 for a lower price. I'm also very intrigued by the new, semi-custom, Terry Precision that they are introducing soon. The Precision will be constructed based on the rider's size, weight, & anticipated use. Here are a couple of links to more info:
Isis Sport
Precision

Another option is to get a used Terry & have it built up the way you like. That's what I did with my Symmetry. I saved about $900 doing it this way, but my bike weighs about 4# more than the new Isis Sport. BTW, Terry started making their Symmetrys out of aluminum in the early to mid 2000's. If you decide to go used & rebuild it, make sure you're looking at the older, steel frames.

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Originally Posted by Artista

Terry makes steel WSD bikes with shorter top tube lengths & 73-74 degree seat tube angles. Shallow bars & short reach levers are standard for them. The Isis Sport is available with a triple. The price on their website is for Ultegra, but they'll build it up with 105 for a lower price. I'm also very intrigued by the new, semi-custom, Terry Precision that they are introducing soon. The Precision will be constructed based on the rider's size, weight, & anticipated use. Here are a couple of links to more info:
Isis Sport
Precision

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Terry bikes are made by Gunnar/Waterford now.

It's been many years since Terry made their own bikes (I remember when Georgena actually made the bikes herself! Gawd, I feel old...).

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Originally Posted by KnottedYet

Terry bikes are made by Gunnar/Waterford now.

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True. I should have said that Terry has steel WSD bikes made for them.

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Originally Posted by Owlie

At what point, would you say, would it make more sense to order the frame (or frame+fork, if possible) and build it up yourself?

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That totally depends on what comes on the off-the-shelf complete bike, what you really want, and what you can live with.

Remember that although you probably know a whole lot more about drivetrain components than wheels right now (and there's a dizzying array of rims, spokes, hubs, and cross patterns available), you can often get the biggest bang for your buck by upgrading the wheels from an off-the-shelf bike.

Price it out! Talk to your LBS. Remember that you save a lot by buying a groupset, so even if (just to pick something out of the air) you could live with 105 shifters, if you want Ultegra brakes, you may do better to get a whole Ultegra groupset than pick and choose each component.

Especially find out your LBS's policy on component swaps on a new complete bike. If you're working with a smaller shop, then most likely you will have to buy any part you want to change. A big shop that can move a lot of parts should credit you for your brand new take-offs.

And of course, if they're doing the labor, will they include that in the price of the parts, or are you going to have an unknown hourly charge to deal with?

I'm a typical WSD rider (5'4", LL, ST) and only one of my 5 bikes is WSD. I didn't really do anything "special" to get the non-WSD ones to fit. They got the same sort of personal tweaks (handlebar, saddle, seatpost) that my WSD bike did, and all of them use a ~100mm stem. (As an aside, my WSD bike shares the exact same measurements, right down to the angles, as one of the company's "unisex" lines. How WSD is it really? ;))

I guess the question is, what size and effective reach do you need to be comfortable? How much shorter does the TTT need to be? Knowing, or at least estimating that will enable you to start searching for other options from a fit perspective.

I prefer building bikes to buying stock bikes. I've developed some pretty strong fit and componenent preferences over the years, and this option allows me to address them without dealing with a whole bunch of take-off parts. Keep in mind though...it's almost always more expensive to build a bike than it is to buy a complete one. The manufacturers have more component buying power than you or I ever will. There's also the cost of assembly, depending on your mechanical level of comfort and access to specialty tools. Depending on your parts choices, it could be more cost effective to buy a stock bike and swap out a few key parts.

I don't want to dissuade you either way...just throw out some food for thought. Have fun with your hunt, and good luck!

I kind of like this article about frame geometry http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadin.../geometry.html

Georgena Terry did a nice little video about frame geometry, but I can't find it.

ETA: here it is. "If it'd been a snake it woulda bit me." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pot6W8eQcv4 She made several, and I like them all. Don't miss the Frame Design series, here's Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD7rq...eature=related

In my limited experience I have had two bikes. One was my Trek 7.6 FX WSD, and I had the smallest 15" size. The reach was just too long, the bike was too big for me and it was eventually sold. It fit well enough to learn how to ride, but caused agony with rides longer than, say, 20 miles.

My LHT, on the other hand, is certainly not a WSD design and while there was an expensive conversion from road bars to mountain bars/trigger shifters that conversion had nothing to do with my reach. The bike fit fine.

I am 5'3" in my stocking feet - and it is ironic that my only experience with WSD didn't work for me. It just goes to show that it doesn't "need" to have that design to have something that will work for you - I think it depends a lot on the manufacturer and bike design - and it also helps to have access to a very good fitter. Just my 2 cents worth - and others here have far more experience from which to draw.

Thanks, everyone, for the food for thought and the interesting reading assignments. :)

I guess the next step* is for me to go find the shops that sell Jamis and Surly and go test some bikes! For comparison, I've also got an Obea Aqua Dama, a Cannondale Synapse Feminine, two Trek models, and two Specialized bikes in my "to try" list.
The Cannondale and the Specializeds are sold by the same shop, but everything else is somewhere else. I have a bit of driving to do. Maybe I'll persuade DBF to make it a date...

That Terry Isis is pretty sweet...but would need to be de-pinked. I cannot pull that off! :rolleyes:

I think the (silly) reason I have my little heart set on that Surly Pacer is that it's steel and British racing green. Remember that post I wrote last summer about my dream low-key bike? That fits at least a few of the criteria, and I can find that honey Brooks and leather bar tape! I agree with Muirenn, though, that the Jamis is probably the best bang-for-buck. Ah well, one day...
*Besides coming up with the $$, of course. :D

What's the purpose of this bike, Owlie? Is it going to be a go fast bike or is it going to be a errand, whatever bike?

My surly pacer had a ridiculously short top tube for a unisex bike. I'm not a wsd person and at 5'1, I like a 520-540 cm top tube. The pacer had a 490 cm top tube. So that being said, it never really fit me well, so my comments on the bike might be entirely off base since I never rode it more than about 45 miles (painful ones). So I think the fit of the pacer will probably be fine.

Surly's seem like heavy burly frames to me, and I think they're great for touring, commuting, beating up, urban whatever - But I wouldn't buy them for a go fast bike. Maybe look at lemond or bianchi if that's more your plan. Test ride some titanium if that's in your price range. But not all steel is created equal, there's thin, light high quality tubing, and then there's heavy stuff. If you want a go fastbike, look for the former, if you want bombproof errand bike, go with a surly.

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Originally Posted by Cataboo

What's the purpose of this bike, Owlie? Is it going to be a go fast bike or is it going to be a errand, whatever bike?

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Is it wrong for me to say "I don't know"? My current bike is supposed to be a go-fast bike, though I've mentioned it'd not be worth upgrading, so I may want a nicer go-fast machine. On the other hand, I'd also like a bike that I can beat up a little, or take on long, slow rides, or ride around town on. I'm not a speed demon and have no pretensions of being one.

It's not wrong for you to say you don't know, but probably you should figure out what you want :) Because it would suck buying a 3rd bike because the first 2 aren't quite what you really wanted. Not that I don't have 6 bikes, but I really try to make myself justify what the purpose of each bike is (not matter how lame)

Go test ride them all and see what feels right anyways.

If you are mechanically inclined and want to buy all the tools, working on your own bike isn't hard. And you can sometimes pick up pieces used and the rest of that to make it not such an expensive endeavor.

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Originally Posted by Owlie

That Terry Isis is pretty sweet...but would need to be de-pinked. I cannot pull that off! :rolleyes:

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That's funny. The pink is part of what I like about the Terry Isis. I see it as a "serious, ride like a girl" pink. Not a prissy, little princess, pink.

Guess that's why there are so many bike manufacturers out there so that everyone can find their perfect bike - like something in British Racing Green:)

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Originally Posted by Cataboo

My surly pacer had a ridiculously short top tube for a unisex bike. I'm not a wsd person and at 5'1, I like a 520-540 cm top tube. The pacer had a 490 cm top tube. So that being said, it never really fit me well, so my comments on the bike might be entirely off base since I never rode it more than about 45 miles (painful ones). So I think the fit of the pacer will probably be fine.

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Interestingly, I'm 5'2" and the top tube of the 42cm Pacer (first it was mine, then it was yours) was just right for me, I thought it was about 50cm. 52cm is about the longest I can go, and I try not to go there. I did centuries on that same exact frame with no problems. I guess I'm a WSD rider. My 44cm Spec Ruby fits me well.

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Originally Posted by surlypacer

Interestingly, I'm 5'2" and the top tube of the 42cm Pacer (first it was mine, then it was yours) was just right for me, I thought it was about 50cm. 52cm is about the longest I can go, and I try not to go there. I did centuries on that same exact frame with no problems. I guess I'm a WSD rider. My 44cm Spec Ruby fits me well.

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I'm definitely not! I had a 130 cm stem on the surly trying to make it long enough.

I have a bizarrely long torso or something apparently.

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Originally Posted by Cataboo

I'm definitely not! I had a 130 cm stem on the surly trying to make it long enough.

I have a bizarrely long torso or something apparently.

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I had an 80cm stem on it!

Cataboo, part of me wants a tank, because the roads around here are crap. Part of me wants a ZOOM! bike. I'm going to do my serious shopping wherever I go to graduate school, since I don't want to have to move two bikes until I need to. ;)

My plan for the moment is to go try some out and see what I fall in love with...I feel like my current bike was sort of an arranged marriage.

Good to know that the Pacer has a relatively short top tube...

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Originally Posted by Artista

That's funny. The pink is part of what I like about the Terry Isis. I see it as a "serious, ride like a girl" pink. Not a prissy, little princess, pink.

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That's what I mean. It's that "I ride with the boys and beat them every time" pink. I cannot pull that off. I'm a slowpoke. :rolleyes:

Owlie,

Get a surly & a go fast bike. Sell your avail so someone else can fall in love with riding. You've been wanting to change the avail ever since you got her practically, so after the initial, oooh my bike, you won't miss her ;)

We'll see once I've gotten that fitting. If I can persuade her to work with me, then I'll buy that Surly (if it fits!), keep her for a while (as a go-fast in summer, trainer bike in winter), change the parts I want as they wear out, and see what I want to do with her once I've gotten that next go-fast bike (stay on as trainer bike, fair-weather commuter, backup road bike, sell.)

If not, I'm buying a new go-fast bike, then replacing the bar tape and plugs (there's a chunk out of one of them!) on the Avail and selling, I think.