Odd?

Has anyone heard of this: Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)?

I have sought out several venues for help parenting DD (almost 5 yo). I've listened to hours of tapes of Love & Logic, been to seminars, tried "1-2-3 Magic!" and all sorts of things. When I've asked for help from the experts, they give me step-by-step instructions. And I reply, "Okay, I do that, but what do you do AFTER that? When DD is still screaming, still hitting, still kicking, throwing, etc after 3 hours and STILL will not quit?" I always get a perplexed look from the "expert."

Recently it was suggested by a doctor that she has ODD. Is this really just another word for "stubborn"? He really didn't give me any advice or seek to put her on medication (which I don't want to do).

This still doesn't solve anything. I'm just so tired. Her behavior takes so much time and effort from me. I feel like I have nothing left to give to DS (15 months). :(

She goes to daycare regularly and the teachers adore her. She doesn't have any behavioral problems there, so that's good :)

I think if she can control herself at daycare, then she probably doesn't have ODD.

I really don't have any other advice except for the tried and true time outs and following through on consequences. Meaning, if you say you're going to do it, you'd better darn well do it. Yes, it sucks. When you ground your kid from the tv, you feel like you're grounded, too.

It'll get worse before it gets better. Hang in there. You can do it!

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Originally Posted by oxysback

I think if she can control herself at daycare, then she probably doesn't have ODD.

I really don't have any other advice except for the tried and true time outs and following through on consequences. Meaning, if you say you're going to do it, you'd better darn well do it. Yes, it sucks. When you ground your kid from the tv, you feel like you're grounded, too.

It'll get worse before it gets better. Hang in there. You can do it!

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I agree that it's important to set cosequences that I can follow through with. The problem is, she won't sit in time-out. I have on many occassions spent 3+ hours putting her in time out. I just can't do that anymore now that I have a 15 month old. I've taken away TV, her toys, special outtings--it doesn't seem to effect her.

I know this is a cycling forum. I just needed a somewhat safe place to vent. I tried talking about this with my parents, but they want nothing to do with it. I had to let it out somewhere before I imploded :o

I had a student a couple of years ago with ODD. I do think it's goes beyond being stubborn. He was a great kid one on one - very bright, very funny. But he loved to be the class clown. I worked on training the rest of the class to ignore him because his fits if I said something to him could horrific. It was not a pleasant year.

Has your daughter always been difficult or is it a new thing since baby bro came along? Have other things changed in your family? What's your husband's role? Is she just as difficult for him?

I know it's hard as a parent to medicate your child. But if something works for her it's worth it. If she had asthma would you deny her an inhaler? I say this because my first three years of teaching were at a private school were all the kids had ADD. I had one student whose parents REALLY wanted drugs to be the answer. Over the years they tried everything and nothing really worked. They finally looked into diet. Taking him off wheat and sugar totally changed him. Same year, different student, parents desperately wanted to keep him off drugs. They had tried diets, biofeedback, various behavior management techniques. They finally put him on Ritalin. He became a different kid too - in a good way.

The human body is so amazingly complex.

I hope you get this worked out.

Veronica

Would agree with oxy, that she is fine at school...which she probably DOES understand her baisc behavioural boundaries outside of home, when she is supervised by other non-parental, supportive, adults.

I don't have much to add but never give up. As an aunt observing nieces and nephews growing up:

A sister had big problems with her son when he was around 5-7 yrs. old. He couldn't calm down, whine, etc. She and hubby finally figured it helpful to find a safe outlet after he returned from school to run around/walk in park with him for only 20 min. or so near home. That seemed to divert son's energy that wouldn't turn into something negative.

Nephew is now smart young man (23 yrs.), calm and relaxed... Same boy who had alot of tantrum controlling time-outs compared to his older sis.

Similar situation for a mother-high school teacher. Her husband was also a teacher. Son was again hyperactive, stubborn at 6-9 yrs. They found it helpful to have him watch tv, laugh at cartoons for 20 min. or 1/2 hr. at noon for lunch, etc. before he went back to school.. it calmed their son before energy turned negative. I last heard the young man was a mentor-teenager helping younger kids on their computer literacy skills. Obviously the kid learned patience, calmness... to mentor others!

Looks like a pattern at least for these 2 children....generally well-behaved at school, does well in school but as soon as they got home, the kid let loosened up negatively unless their energy was redirected elsewhere as soon as they came home. For these 2 children it was a regular activity that they liked to do to expend that energy for a brief time.


She's a good kid, don't give up. Kudos to you and hubby to take time to ask, figure out behavioural patterns.

Veronica's suggestion on certain food triggers and timing of what child should eat is useful also.

She sounds like me when I was that age. I turned out ok! And that determination sure helped a lot over the years.

But I was an absolute angel at school, and could be an absolute terror at home. Always in trouble, screaming, throwing things, whatever. A battle over something minute could escalate in a matter of seconds. And I KNEW when they were losing patience and were about to start screaming (or spanking) and I pushed it all the more, being well aware of the consequences.

I don't remember enough to be able to think of what would've worked instead though. I just know I had to win each and every battle, and that I had infinitely more time and energy than my overtaxed mother...and I was very aware of those circumstances. I also had a younger sister that mom had to watch, so 3 hours of throwing me in time out wouldn't have worked either.

Good luck. I outgrew it eventually, but I'm sure you'll find a quicker solution.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I'm going to print these out and read through them tonight when I have some time. What I skimmed so far there seems to be some good points and alternatives to try.

First off, hugs. It's so hard to have to face something like this. I had some similar issues with my older son (now 11). I remember holding the door closed for time outs, while he was screaming and trying to get out on the other side. I also wound up yelling a lot--I never spanked, but my yelling was like a slap in the face. That was definitely not how I had envisioned motherhood or the kind of mother I thought I would be. It was just awful. He and I are both strong-willed and somewhat controlling, and we would just spiral down into these power struggles.

I eventually figured out that it was best to avoid the struggles--not in the sense of walking on egg shells, but simply to prevent nonproductive conflict. A book I found helpful in that area was Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles. For me, it was important to figure out what we did that got us into the struggles and then find ways to either ignore the trigger when it happened or redirect (though I have to say I'm not good at redirecting). It was also important for me to realize I could say, "I'm really upset right now, so we're going to deal with this later when we're both calmer." You don't have to set consequences in the moment. You can walk away and come back later.

I also found that sometimes my son was right--that what I wanted to have happen wasn't what he needed in the moment, and frequently what I was trying to do wasn't that important. It's not that he won or was controlling me, but that he had a legitimate reason for whatever it was he wanted or needed, and it just took me a while to see it. Once he knew I was willing to listen to (and hear) his needs, he was more cooperative. For example, when he was around 8, he refused to go to his annual medical check. My first thought was that I would take him kicking and screaming if I had to, but instead I calmly sat down and asked some questions to figure out why he didn't want to go. It turned out he didn't want the doctor checking his privates, so we agreed that he would go to the appointment but ask the doctor to skip that part as it really wasn't necessary. Problem solved without the usual power struggle.

I can also tell you it does get better. My son is still fairly quick-tempered, strong-willed, and controlling. That's just his personality. But he is also a delightful member of our family, and we have a lot of fun together.

Have you read Kids are Worth It? (Barbara Coloroso) Totally shifted my perspective on control, power, etc...I found it totally uplifting and grounding. Might want to try that one in addition to the reading you've been doing. And Playful Parenting. Loved it. Sorry I can't help much beyond the book recommendations - but hang in there. I've heard that can be a tough age. We're still living in toddler land at our house. ;)

(((Hugs))) How frustrating for you! I've heard of ODD and have met one child who was diagnosed with it, and I tend to agree that if your daughter isn't having behavioral problems in school/daycare then she probably doesn't have ODD.

When we were having serious behavioral/stubbornness issues with my stepson his psychologist recommended the book "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" and I was amazed at how the suggestions in that book actually WORKED. This was a child who didn't care about consequences for his actions (and I'm talking serious problems--he was suspended from school once for threatening a teacher and was held back a grade because he simply refused to do homework) and while the recommendations didn't change him into a perfect child, they helped. A lot. It was all about changing your methods of interaction so that problem solving was collaborative instead of confrontational. We didn't learn about the book until he was in middle school, but we wished we had had it back in preschool. We've since used these methods with my daughter to great effect as well.

The other thing you might want to try (and this also worked with my daughter) is to set up a behavioral system like they use at daycare. Since you know she does well there, why not try to replicate a system that she's familiar with and respects? In my daughter's classes this has always been some version of a chart where you start on green for the day and infractions of the rules make you move to yellow and then red. If you stay on green, you earn tickets for little rewards (you can save them up for big rewards or blow them each week on a crappy plastic ring). If you get to red, you deal with consequences (generally privileges taken away). But find out what they use at daycare and use the same method at home.

Good luck!

Sarah

Limewave, I hear and feel your frustration and exhaustion. I've never heard of ODD but I have had similar problems with my 4 1/2 year old. Perhaps not to the same extent but what you described is close to home.

I too tried time outs and (cringe) spanking which we no longer do, taking away tv and toys. The time outs were the biggest bust since they just became full blown power struggles to stay. Yet at preK and childcare not a problem. So we don't do time outs anymore.

Instead I changed my approach. When I see my son start to get in his mood I soften my voice, speak firmly but lovingly and get close to him. Sometimes he needs to cry a bit, get a little frustration out but I remain calm. Then I ask him what the problem is/needs, acknowledge what it is and then state what needs to be done.

For example, it's time to put toys away and he doesn't want to and the screaming starts. We do our thing and if he still continues, then I take away his favorite thing of the moment. I calmly tell him why, do it and step away for a minute or two if he's still crying and screaming (this helps me stay calm too). After a few minutes he calms down, comes over and says sorry. Then we continue on and the favorite is still put away. After the appropriate time (usually a day) I tell him he has been listening and doing a good job of putting toys away and give him the item back.

It goes like this back and forth. He's not the perfect little boy but we get better results faster and the house is calmer.

Also, when I am tired and at my limit, I have screamed and yelled which only made the situation worse. I have gone to him and said I am sorry for yelling at him, I was tired (or whatever was going on at the time) and that it was wrong of me to do that to him. He then hugs me, tells me its ok and can I sit down and play with him so I can feel better.

This approach is just a thought. There are many good ideas listed here. It may be one or a combination of things to work. It took a lot of trial and error for us to find what works. And what does not work one week, may work in another. I'm sure you know about that all too well.

Don't sweat it about this being a cycling forum. We may cycle but we also have LOTS of moms out there who can relate :)

Good luck and keep us posted.
DT

I can't even claim to know anything about this as I'm childless, but my 6 year old niece is a handful for my brother and sis-in-law. She's been exceptionally stubborn (and nasty to her older sister by hitting, biting, pulling hair if she doesn't get her way) since she could walk. And some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth is utterly horrifying. And if looks could kill, we'd all be annihilated by now.

They enrolled her in karate about 6 months ago, and she LOVES it. She loves the structure, being graded, and advancing in belts.

As a former teacher, I highly recommend the book SFA talked about, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen... It might not be perfect, but I have seen it work many times, with parents who were desperate. You've received a lot of good advice, to which I will add, to remember that you are the parent. It sounds silly, but a lot of parents give in and try to deal with these difficult parenting situations by being the child's "friend." From my own parenting experience, I think I was way more liberal and progressive about lots of things than other parents, but my kids also knew that while we "worked together" through difficult situations, in the end, we were the adults. My younger son was difficult, had ADD, though not really hyper, and was always the "odd one" in our family. He still is, at age 25. But, he is a wonderful young man, a good husband, and will be a great dad someday. I guess what I'm saying is that while your DD's basic personality may not change over the years, she can still grow into an awesome person; it just might seem like light years away now!

<<HUGS>> I have an adopted son that is a behavior challenge, so I really feel for you. The name of the game in our house is 1) don't talk when you haven't got your emotions in hand, 2) don't talk when the child doesn't have his emotions in hand, and 3) use logical consequences that you and the child decide together. And, in our house 4) we ALL (me too) have a behavior contract (the kids don't like it when I yell, so I get fined if I do - $$ goes to an ice cream slush fund).

While ODD can occur in one setting and not another, I wouldn't start hitting the panic button now (ODD is VERY serious). My son came home when he was 3 years, and I would say it was very, very clear from day 1 that there was something "off" about him - even now (he's almost 12). However, while he has a conduct disorder, it is not ODD. The difference is, he can show empathy and is remorseful most of the time. I tried all the books mentioned - even the "How to Talk to Your Kids..." book (which I gave a bad review for on Amazon). Nothing really worked because he doesn't have the reasoning capacity to redirect his own behavior in the middle of it. Sort of like what you are saying - when I do ALL the things the "expert" tells me to do and the behavior persists, then what? THAT was EXACTLY my problem. Sanctuary worked for us. We designated a spot (happened to be the bathtub when he was little, now it is his room with the understanding he will be responsible for all repairs) that he could go and throw his fit safely. I also have a spot to go to so that I can check my own temper - walking away was the godsend I was looking for, because as soon as I am out of sight not giving him any feedback, and he realizes he is not going to get it, he now calms down immediately. It did take about 4-5 weeks of consistency. Leaving stores, pulling the car over and getting out... and we still have days that things don't go well (especially now that he is almost as big as me). He also has a sanctuary spot at school. So, it is consistent home to school - he still has to face the music later, but only when he is calm. I would say from 6 on, he mostly can pull it together on his own and show up within 10 minutes (sometimes longer) to the table to talk about it. And, we reward positive behaviors while don't necessarily punish (we adopted the Love and Logic approach on this one - we use reparations, which harder on the kiddo anyway). And about a year ago, unfortunately we had to turn to medication as a last resort, but he was really having a tough time at school and couldn't get through a single day.

Now, my 6 year old, she's mouthy - REALLY mouthy - and WICKED smart (she uses her brains for mayhem too). The Love and Logic approach is great for her, and I appreciated the "How to Talk to Your Kids" book for her only (the difference being she's verbal and smart, whereas my son struggles in those departments and relishes structure). The core idea is still the same - talk to your kids like they are people, use logic not emotion, and use consequences that relate to the behavior. Right about 3 months into Kinder, she went from a sweetheart bunny rabbit to a rabid pitbull with no warning - and there were many stores for a short time there where I apologized to the clerks picked her up and just left. She was SHOCKED when I did that with her the first time. It burned out in about a month. That said, we were going through a divorce :( and I think she needed to work that out. I absolutely refuse to argue with her though, and that works for us.

Good luck

I do not have children, and probably won't for a while. But no one has posted about ODD specifically, so i thought I'd do that.

Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is an observed collection of behaviors that when grouped together can arbitrarily be called ODD by a psychotherapist.

The diagnostic criteria include:
A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least six months during which four or more of the following are present
-Loss of temper
-argues with adults
-actively defies or refuses to comply with appropriate requests
-deliberately annoys people
-often blames others for his/her mistakes or misbehaviors
-touchy or easily annoyed
-angry and resentful
-spiteful and vindictive

Doesn't this sound like most children in the terrible two's or most teenagers?

When psychologists or therapists diagnose a child with ODD, it's really a way of grouping behaviors into one term so that other people(physicians or other therapists) can understand. It's a term to describe the behaviors. Do not be afraid or hung up on this label. It does not mean your child has a disorder or necessarily that it needs to be treated with medication (which might help), it just describes the pattern of behaviors.

The difference ODD has with Conduct Disorders (CD) is that CD is characterized by (1) aggression towards people and animals (2) destruction of property (3) deceitfulness or theft (4) serious violation of rules. Basically, general disregard for clear consequences, be it physical harm to others or the self.

Ultimately, what I am trying to explain is that ODD is just a term. It's just something that a psychologist uses to explain what she is observing. A psychiatrist might use this term on paper in order to give the child a prescription, since to give drugs the psychiatrist needs to call it something on paper.

Also, its a description of a behavior disorder. Behaviors can be changed. And we can learn new behaviors. I'm sure you'll be able to figure something out.

All these women have very good advice. It definitely takes trial and error to find what works for you and your child because of the individual nature of you, your child, your baby, your environment, her environment, among many other factors that I won't even get into.

I hope that clears up what ODD is.

That's an excellent explanation. ODD is most definitely a collection of behaviors, just like ADHD. One would be very careful about a conduct disorder diagnosis, as there's research showing this often morphs into something more serious when the child becomes an adult.
I second the Love and Logic book. I used it with some very difficult early adolescents. Consistency is the name of the game.

ame--we have been doing "sanctuary" at our house, although we didn't have a term for it. I found that it has been good in taking her aggression "out of the equation" so to speak. We put her in her room and she can throw, kick, scream, whatever she needs to do without it affecting or being targeted towards anyone else in the family. It has saved my sanity and allowed me to stay calm and level in the moment.

I was feeling guilty about it--not sure how it would sound to other parents, but the Love & Logic counselor said it was a good thing to do in that situation.

I've dealt with anxiety/depression my entire life. And when I was going to therapy, my counselor had me buy a heavy bag and boxing gloves. I beat the tar out of that thing for awhile. Thankfully I don't need it anymore (probably because of all the mountain biking). I guess I shouldn't be surprised that DD has the same need to act out her emotions physically.

I have her in soccer and she really enjoys that. But she's so aggressive--I was thinking of letting her have a go at karate. They've been wrestling at daycare as part of their summer program--learning about the renaissance. She really loves that. I wonder if there's a wrestling program for girls her age?

Lol, I hear you - "Sanctuary" sounded so sanitized, serene, and safe that when actually his teacher recommended the name we jumped on it. I don't like approaching anything with anger, so I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with modeling giving them and yourself time and safe space to work it out before approaching the problem. And, sometimes I just need a good bellow too. ;)

I'm working on a master's in elementary ed right now and JUST finished with a special ed class where we talked a little about ODD. This is what I know about it: If she does have ODD or EBD (emotional/behavioral disorder), then the types of discipline that work on other kids may not work for her. She may not be acting out just to get to you. She might not know any other way to express her emotions. What I was taught to do if a student has ODD or EBD is, instead of punishing the child for the bad behavior, ask her "Why did you do that?" Sometimes finding the root of the behavior can be the first step toward solving the problem. Is she starting kindergarten this year or next? Has anyone from Early Intervention ever come out to do an evaluation? They would have some great ideas as well, and they will be able to write up an IEP (if it's necessary) so that her teachers know the best methods for effectively teaching her and dealing with her behavioral issues when she starts school.

I was catsitting for a neighbor last night and decided to channel surf on her tv since I don't have one.

I came across SuperNanny and the child was about 9 and she totally acted out towards her mother--kicking, screaming, biting. It was terrible! The mother fought back just as hard and they were both screaming and getting nowhere.

The SuperNanny had what I thought was a very creative idea: she made a very pretty box called a Thought Box, and gave the girl a fluffy pen and pretty paper. The girl wrote thoughts in the Thought Box for the mother to read. Then the mother and daughter would discuss the thoughts. This allowed the daughter to express herself in a non-violent way, and allowed the mother to listen (something she did not do when the child had a tantrum), and allowed them both the space they needed to talk about things.

A 5-year old might be too young, but I thought it was a lovely idea.

I also liked the books mentioned by SFA and Northstar. Parenting is such a minefield of emotions and struggles. I think I also read a book called "Parenting the Spirited Child" (I'm not at at home now- can't check the bookshelf).

I think it is important to find techniques that both parents can work with- it is critical to be a united front. (this is something we still struggle with - though our kids are much older - my husband feels he has to help them with everything- thus preventing them from the emotional turmoil of failure..I could go on and on about this....)

Pick your battles, don't get into negotiations. It's hard work - parenting.
(((Limewave)))

I have great list of resources to check out! I'm heading to the library this afternoon.

I do think that I need to give DD some tools to help her let out her aggression in an appropriate manner. It's okay for her to get angry and frustrated, we just need to find a good outlet for her. Then once she's calmed down we can talk about the situation and do a consequence when needed.

I wish DD could write down her thoughts in a journal or in letters, but she can't read yet. We're working on it . . . I think that would help her a lot.