New bike - toe overlap

Hi everyone,

I picked up my new bike today, a 2010 Jamis Aurora Elite! It is a beautiful bike, I love it. I got it for touring mainly, but also as my commuter.

I ordered it from my LBS sight unseen and based on pre-fit info was in between sizes so was nervous about fit. I ended up with the 50cm bike which was definitely the way to go for me, next size down was a 47 cm. Prior to ordering the shop put me on a comparable bike in both sizes and the 50 was definitely the better fit.

The bike fit me fine, no change in stem was needed. Stand over clearance isn't a problem either so that was a relief.

The fit process was by far the most comprehensive fit I have ever had. It was amazing as he tweaked this, tweaked that, how it slowly came together and just got better and better with each change. He is a certified BG fit specialist and even worked with Team Saxo Bank at one of their camps last year. He's also a super nice guy and did all kinds of little things to get my fit dialed in. The fit today was the "basic" fit that comes with buying the bike there but I'm going to go back with by road bike and have him do the comprehensive fit with me later in the month. I can't imagine how much more comfortable I will be on the bike. I have a lot of physical anomolies shall we say and comfort on a bike is something I gave up on a long time ago. I think it can be improved upon quite a bit based on today. That's reason to celebrate in and of itself!

Anyway, back to my Jamis. :) after I got home I went for a quick spin in the neighborhood and discovered I have some toe overlap which I've never had with any of my other bikes, so that was weird and a little scary. I was able to reduce it by adjusting the fender. I have been reading about toe overlap tonight and it seems most folks adjust to it. I would be interested to hear anyone's experience here with it and if they see it as a big deal. Otherwise the bike seems perfect. And the fact that she is so pretty makes it that much more perfect. :D

I'll post some pics later on. Here's a link to the bike. I know there are Jamis Aurora riders here, when I was doing my research on which touring bike to get I read quite a bit and it was all good. I am feeling good about my pick. I got the blue smoke color, my husband got the sangria red. His is backordered and won't be here for 2 weeks. :(

I've been out to the garage so many times tonight to look at her, my husband suggested I just leave the light on. I did. ;)

http://jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/r...aelite_bl.html

Susan

It's unusual for stock bike to have toe overlap. Having said that, it usually isn't a big deal, but is a bigger deal if you do loaded touring, where weighted/loaded riding can really exacerbate the effect of the front wheel hitting your toe, and can have bigger consequences. As long as loaded touring isn't part of your repertoire, it isn't a big deal to adjust to, and will only rarely be something you are aware of.

Pretty soon you'll learn to put the outside pedal "down" on turns, and it will become automatic.

My Surly Cross Check is one of the joys of my life, but once I put fenders on her, I too had fender-toe overlap just like you.

Sometimes, adding fenders to the bike just takes up some space. (I live where it rains 200+ days a year, so the fenders are worth the price of learning proper cornering technique!)

It took me two years to discover I've got a bit of toe overlap on my Rodriguez. Taking a corner peddling through a squiggly footpath in a park at 1 or 2 mph. It surprised me, but I recovered quickly enough to avoid embarrassment or disaster. And no worries -- it's not a place or a technique that I would consider normal riding conditions.

In normal riding conditions, where you have a bit of momentum to carry you through a turn, outside pedal down = no problem. It's good technique to have even if you don't have toe overlap.

Thanks for the replies. Luna, we do plan to do some loaded touring but because of my situation with toe overlap looks like I will be restricted to carrying stuff on the back only? Or will it also be an issue with weight on the back only?

Knotted, I already do that, put my outside crank down so maybe it won't be a big deal at all. I think some of it is just the idea of it and of course the fear of going down. I think it's something I am just going to have to get over by riding. The fenders are pretty minimalist and came stock on the bike. I'd like to leave them if I can so I'll try to just "ride" it out. Pun intended. :p

Thanks again.

Once I put fenders on my touring bike, I got some toe overlap as well. It's only really an issue for tight turns at low speeds, which don't happen that often, and you learn to deal with it. I don't think there's any real danger if you do hit the fender; you're hitting the fender, not the tire, so the worst that's going to happen is the fender might rub the tire for a second. It's not likely to make you come to a screeching halt. I haven't tried riding with my front panniers since putting the fenders on, but since the front panniers make tight turns difficult as it is, in reality you just tend to do them less (that is, with your bike fully loaded you're not going to be making a lot of tight turns) so the toe overlap may be even less of a problem with front bags on.

Ride it for a while and it it still bothers you, just take off the fender.

Sarah

Thanks Nby and Sarah, your comments make me feel better about it. I think it is a mental thing more than anything else. I'll just have to ride it to get over my concern/fear.

Susan

I haven't gotten on a road bike that I didn't have toe overlap on.

What can I say, I'm short and I like fast twitchy bikes (steep headtube angles which exacerbates the problem)

That said I've only once had an issue with it (missed a turn, tried to do a greater than 90* very sharp turn to compensate, was a bit panicked and focused everywhere but my riding, whacked my foot). Stayed upright and completed the turn.

99.9% of the time I simply don't notice since you just don't typically make turns that sharp or slow on a road bike (ie: you don't rely on front wheel steering that much). This includes commuting on bike paths (ie: dodging idiots that want to play frogger with you....), weaving through campus sidewalks durning class change (ie: trying to swim upstream in a monsoon...), club rides (ie: hanging on for dear life while the Cat 1&2's hand you your arse whilest chatting normally and talking about what a great "recovery" ride this is...), etc.

I will say I haven't attempted loaded touring. But I'll echo what others have said in that you do get used to it and subconsciously adjust your pedal position in turns, etc.

I'll disagree a bit with Luna on this one in that it DOES seem a pretty common issue in stock frames. Especially true in the smaller sizes, but a search of roadbikereview will find lots of posts on the issue from average to tall guys on average to tall bikes. Seems that as we demand faster, twitchier, racier bikes there's just no where else to put the front wheel anymore! Could (and probably should) be less common on touring specific bikes that don't have racey geometry, not my field of expertise though.

Congratulations on your beautiful new bike! I saw an Aurora Elite at the LBS yesterday and it got my attention, but I don't think it would be as good a fit as the Surly. Have fun with your new bike!

My road bike (Jamis Xenith Pro) has it. The first bike I've ever had that did. I'd heard of toe overlap before, but didn't know what it was until test riding the bike. Freaked me out! But I've never crashed this bike, so I guess it hasn't been a problem. I only notice it on U-turns, turning after stopping at an intersection (that's the hard one - you have to pedal to start moving, so you have to be thinking about it). The extremely slow speed, pretty sharp turn stuff.

I rarely encounter it, because I live in a rural area with relatively few roads, usually light traffic, and a total of 3 stop lights that I might encounter on a normal ride (and rarely all 3 in one ride, and one I never turn at). I just don't turn from one road onto another very frequently. So when it does happen, I sure notice it!

Aside from the momentary freak-out factor, when it catches you by surprise, I don't think I'd worry about hitting the fender. I'm hitting shoe to rubber, which seems a lot more dangerous.

I haven't done a lot of loaded touring (it's on my list), but I did one short one, and I don't think I could turn that tightly with that load without toppling over anyway.

Have fun!

Thanks for your replies! :)

MD, I think what surprised me the most about the t.o. was that I didn't expect it on a touring bike when to my knowledge I've never experienced it on any of my road bikes, including my twitchiest my scott cr1-pro. However, my husband who rides behind me (i'm the stronger rider at this point) said i often clip out on my scott when making u-turns and kind of hang my foot, which triggered a vague memory of having an issue in past with t.o. I liked your scenarios and the fact that 99.9% of the time it isn't an issue for you. I can handle that!

Catrin, Thanks, I like her too. I considered the Surly cross and lht, they are great bikes too. Plus, there would be something extra cool about riding a bike named *surly* :D

Skierchickie, know what you mean about freaking out, that's what I did yesterday. Plus I didn't mention in my post but the other thing that freaked me out were the brakes. It has disc brakes which I didn't really want but can see the benefits of, had been told watch out initially 'cause i could overbrake, not being used to them. Keeping this in mind i went to brake, nothing happened, squeezed harder, slowed down to a slow roll (going downhill). After doing some checking I think I found what the problem is and am going to take it back to the lbs Monday. I may post here on forum about it too just to get other's opinions. thanks for replying, nice hearing from another Jamis owner. Sounds like you ride in a cool area, especially the light traffic. I would like that. :)

I have found TCO is a common problem on stock bikes in the 50cm or less size range. Yes, some companies avoid if by making compromises to the geometry, but the only stock bikes I have found that don't have it without compromising the geometry are terrys and cervelos (at least the 48cm RS, my fav bike), which usually use smaller sized wheels in the smaller sized frames. The bottom line is that its very difficult to build a 50 cm or smaller frame with good handling and no TCO using wheels larger than 650c.

Whether you will adjust is very personal. Many say they do, I prefer to purchase bikes that don't have it so I don't know.

Yep, my 48cm Cannondale Synapse has a bit of TO. I talked to a shop guy who said even larger sizes may have TO if the rider has a larger foot, which makes sense. It's something I'm aware of, so I just need to concentrate on turns that don't have my toes near the turned wheel.

Yep. I have about a millimeter of clearance on my 50 cm Synapse Feminine, maybe two. Definitely not enough for fenders IAE. (Not that this is a fender-prone bike, but youknowwhuddimean. ;))

I learned not to pedal through corners the other hard way... by sticking a pedal in a corner and translating 21 mph forward motion into who knows how fast straight up in the air, turning upside down and landing on my (helmeted) head, out cold for way too long for my training partner's comfort. Won't try that again. :rolleyes::eek:

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Yep. I have about a millimeter of clearance on my 50 cm Synapse Feminine, maybe two. Definitely not enough for fenders IAE. (Not that this is a fender-prone bike, but youknowwhuddimean. ;))

I learned not to pedal through corners the other hard way... by sticking a pedal in a corner and translating 21 mph forward motion into who knows how fast straight up in the air, turning upside down and landing on my (helmeted) head, out cold for way too long for my training partner's comfort. Won't try that again. :rolleyes::eek:

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:eek: Yikes! Envisioning something like that happening to me is how I developed the habit of cornering with my outside crank down. I'd had enough falls, accidents in other ways to want to avoid that one.

I still hope to avoid that one. ;)

Like everyone here has said, it's not a big deal once you get used to it. And, yes, too often big companies compromise frame geometry simply to avoid it...and that's not good. So if you are small and you can live with it, usually, I say "great!"

However, I go out of my way not to design it into a bike that I know will do loaded touring. Whereas on an unloaded bike, it is easy to correct/respond to, it can be dicier if, say, you are going 6 mph uphill with 40 lbs on your bike, rear loaded, or rear and front loaded. It just requires more muscle to respond to when the bike is loaded, and is hard to respond as quickly, especially at slow speeds which is when it tends to occur. Everyone will tell you it won't happen (crank forward with the wheel being turned in the opposite direction is not a natural position), but it just does happen now and then, regardless of your skill, and is more likely to happen at slower speeds, and often loaded touring speeds are slow speeds. Just something to be aware of. With 40 lbs on the bike, it would not be fun to go down.

It would be helpful to know how much toe overlap you have, as you may be able to something about it. For example, who set up your cleats, or are you using toe clips? The use of toe clips makes toe overlap much more likely. Cleats set far back on the shoe's sole make toe overlap likely. What length crank do you have, and is it appropriate for your inseam? If your bike has a longer crank than what is ideal for you, switching to a shorter one might help eliminate toe overlap (but not a good fix if you don't really need shorter cranks). Finally, and maybe most simply, going to a somewhat smaller profile tire may reduce or eliminate your toe overlap. If you can reduce it to a "brush" instead of a "bump" it won't affect you much when it does happen...even with 40 lbs of gear on your bike.

Margo - what do you do when it is toe-fender overlap, like SLash is experiencing?

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Originally Posted by lunacycles

Like everyone here has said, it's not a big deal once you get used to it. And, yes, too often big companies compromise frame geometry simply to avoid it...and that's not good. So if you are small and you can live with it, usually, I say "great!"

However, I go out of my way not to design it into a bike that I know will do loaded touring. Whereas on an unloaded bike, it is easy to correct/respond to, it can be dicier if, say, you are going 6 mph uphill with 40 lbs on your bike, rear loaded, or rear and front loaded. It just requires more muscle to respond to when the bike is loaded, and is hard to respond as quickly, especially at slow speeds which is when it tends to occur. Everyone will tell you it won't happen (crank forward with the wheel being turned in the opposite direction is not a natural position), but it just does happen now and then, regardless of your skill, and is more likely to happen at slower speeds, and often loaded touring speeds are slow speeds. Just something to be aware of. With 40 lbs on the bike, it would not be fun to go down.

It would be helpful to know how much toe overlap you have, as you may be able to something about it. For example, who set up your cleats, or are you using toe clips? The use of toe clips makes toe overlap much more likely. Cleats set far back on the shoe's sole make toe overlap likely. What length crank do you have, and is it appropriate for your inseam? If your bike has a longer crank than what is ideal for you, switching to a shorter one might help eliminate toe overlap (but not a good fix if you don't really need shorter cranks). Finally, and maybe most simply, going to a somewhat smaller profile tire may reduce or eliminate your toe overlap. If you can reduce it to a "brush" instead of a "bump" it won't affect you much when it does happen...even with 40 lbs of gear on your bike.

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Thanks very much, I appreciate everything you said. I actually have very little toe overlap. First, I moved the fender in towards the tire slightly, still enough room between fender and tire. I put my bike on the rack, clipped my shoe in (on this bike I'm going to use the spd pedal/with platform on flip side) turned the cranks while moving the wheel and the only place they touched (it wasn't a stop but more of a graze) was when the pedal was at about the 2:00 position (3:00 being straight and not touching there) and the shoe caught the rubber tips of the wire thing that attaches the fender. So, if i trim that 1/4-1/2 inch I'm not sure it would make any contact. Even not trimming it except for that 2:00 to maybe 2:30 place in the revolution of the crank it isn't an issue.

As far as the crank, that's something I've thought about too and plan to talk to the lbs about when I go back. I have 170mm cranks now. I'm 5'5", actually I'm 5' 4.5" due to shrinkage (aging. blah.) and atypical in that I am longer in the torso than legs. So a shorter crank I would think might be appropriate.

So where things stand now, with the adjustment of the fender the t.o. isn't much of a problem or at least doesn't appear to be based on what I'm seeing. Again, by possibly trimming the wire fender things slightly that could take care of it. Not sure if I was clear but they actually extend past the fender about an inch, and are capped with rubber tips. There are two, about an inch apart - on either side of the fender. The fenders are minimalist style. They are flat, brushed aluminum, and maybe 2.5 inches wide. I won't do anything with them until the lbs checks it and we can look at other alternatives such as crank length.

The true test will be riding. I will talk to the lbs about the crank and whether shorter would be appropriate without compromising on fit. Thanks again. :)

wow...geez!...where did I miss it was a fender causing your toe overlap? Sorry for that. I totally missed it. Then, really...No big deal! Just remove the fender, or go with a shorty when you load it up for touring (so the fender doesn't go far down enough behind the back of the front tire to be an issue with your toe). Seriously, fender causing toe overlap is very common, kind of the price you pay for having full length fenders on a smallish bike...

No big deal.:)

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Originally Posted by lunacycles

wow...geez!...where did I miss it was a fender causing your toe overlap? Sorry for that. I totally missed it. Then, really...No big deal! Just remove the fender, or go with a shorty when you load it up for touring (so the fender doesn't go far down enough behind the back of the front tire to be an issue with your toe). Seriously, fender causing toe overlap is very common, kind of the price you pay for having full length fenders on a smallish bike...

No big deal.:)

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Margo, yes it is just the fender. The fender does go down far but it only interferes with my shoes where those wire things extend past it. Look at this picture, it shows it better than I can explain it. Although it doesn't show how the wires extend past the fender because since i moved my fender closer to the tire it now goes past it... just needs a trim. :)

http://jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/i...raelite_bl.jpg

That is one beautiful bike!

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Originally Posted by Catrin

That is one beautiful bike!

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Thanks Catrin, I just love her!:)

I have some toe-overlap on my 51cm Cervelo Soloist, however I also wear a size 10 1/2 shoe...so perhaps the combination of the compact frame design and my bozo feet are creating the TO issue for me. It's really only an issue when I'm riding super-slow and happen to turn the wheel, full-lock in either direction...so since I'm fully aware of it, I try and avoid those scenarios.

Yeah, now that I think about it, the 50 cm Synapse comes with 170 mm cranks, and I had the shop swap them out for the 165s I need. So in stock trim on that bike, I definitely would have toe overlap.

Then again, I have huge feet. :p

Resurrecting this thread because I am having trouble with toe overlap with my brand new (42 cm) Surly Cross Check. I had briefly wondered if I should have gone with the Long Haul Trucker with the smaller wheels, but I wanted the speediness of the Cross Check and most people at the store dismissed TO as a real concern. I'm finding I'm having trouble with it, when maneuvering at slow speeds, getting started from a stop up a hill, navigating an off-road portion, etc.

All that happens so far is scraping the tire with the edge of my cage, but I worry that worse may happen one day. I'm also definitely funneling all of typical post-large-purchase buyer's remorse into the TO issue so it's hard to tease out how much is REALLY an issue.

Tonight my husband is going to put on clipless pedals, I'm REALLY REALLY hoping that'll improve the problem. I'm comfortable with clipless but this is my touring and commuting bike, and for commuting I usually use a pair of Danskos because they are warmer than my road shoes. There's always booties, I guess.

Maybe smaller tires would help too? The bike came with 41s, we switched them out for -- either 35s or 38s, I can't remember which.

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Originally Posted by fallstoclimb

Resurrecting this thread because I am having trouble with toe overlap with my brand new (42 cm) Surly Cross Check.

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I send my small frame clients out to the grass park in flat pedals and regular shoes. "Go out and rub your foot on the tire doing slow U turns."
You'll soon learn what it takes to avoid it, realize that its only a problem at low speed U turns and be accustomed to the feel if it does happen later.

Have the shop trim the struts so they don't extend past the fender itself.
If you bought the stylish fenders with the loop struts....maybe time to ditch them.
Worst case, drill out the strut rivet. Cut the fender short enough to miss your foot, reattach the strut.

Seajay

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Originally Posted by Seajay

I send my small frame clients out to the grass park in flat pedals and regular shoes. "Go out and rub your foot on the tire doing slow U turns."
You'll soon learn what it takes to avoid it, realize that its only a problem at low speed U turns and be accustomed to the feel if it does happen later.

Have the shop trim the struts so they don't extend past the fender itself.
If you bought the stylish fenders with the loop struts....maybe time to ditch them.
Worst case, drill out the strut rivet. Cut the fender short enough to miss your foot, reattach the strut.

Seajay

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So unfortunately it was caused by the tire, not a fender, but fortunately going clipless 100% fixed the problem. I even tried to manufacture toe overlap this morning with no luck. Its a bit of a pain because changing in the bathroom stall is more difficult with my bike shoes than my slip on Danskos, but that's a small price to pay for getting this bike to work for me (because except for the TO I love it SO much).

Might not be able to put fenders on it when I tour with it, but that's a problem for another day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallstoclimb

So unfortunately it was caused by the tire, not a fender, but fortunately going clipless 100% fixed the problem. I even tried to manufacture toe overlap this morning with no luck. Its a bit of a pain because changing in the bathroom stall is more difficult with my bike shoes than my slip on Danskos, but that's a small price to pay for getting this bike to work for me (because except for the TO I love it SO much).

Might not be able to put fenders on it when I tour with it, but that's a problem for another day.

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I'm glad you solved the overlap problem. But I'm curious about the changing-clothes part -- do you wear your bike shoes at work?

Also re: booties to keep your feet warm -- in cool but not cold weather, toe covers might suffice. Plastic wrap or paper towels around your toes inside the shoes will help in a pinch if you've got nothing else. Woolie Boolie socks are awesome if they don't make the shoes too tight, and neoprene booties are best when it's really cold (key word being neoprene-- booties made from different fabric are not as warm).

Haha no I don't work in bike shoes! But if I'm in heels or boots (most of the time), it's difficult to change from my bike shorts to my work pants in the bathroom stall by balancing on the shoes, which was my strategy with the Danskos. I had a heart to heart with myself though and decided that I'm okay with standing on the bathroom floor in my socks.

I was thrilled to find a pair of toe covers I forgot I owned (because I tend to hang up the road bike by the time they are necessary. We will find out this winter how low of temps they handle! I am not sure if they are made of neoprene or not, I should check on that.

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Originally Posted by fallstoclimb

Haha no I don't work in bike shoes! But if I'm in heels or boots (most of the time), it's difficult to change from my bike shorts to my work pants in the bathroom stall by balancing on the shoes, which was my strategy with the Danskos. I had a heart to heart with myself though and decided that I'm okay with standing on the bathroom floor in my socks.

I was thrilled to find a pair of toe covers I forgot I owned (because I tend to hang up the road bike by the time they are necessary. We will find out this winter how low of temps they handle! I am not sure if they are made of neoprene or not, I should check on that.

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I totally know how you feel about standing on the bathroom floor. When I'm going to be changing into bike clothes after work, I typically wear sneakers or sandals because they're easy to get on and off, I can stand on them while I'm changing, and they don't look totally weird with the bike shorts. In cold weather I wear short shearling-lined boots, and I've been able to manage changing with them.

Would it work to put one (or two) of those paper seat covers on the floor, and stand on that?

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Originally Posted by ny biker

Would it work to put one (or two) of those paper seat covers on the floor, and stand on that?

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Yes! That is a great idea.