Puzzling death circumstances in a family

To my shock, I learned just yesterday of someone's husband who died of supposedly Alzheimer's and pneumonia. The guy was under 55 and didn't have any heart nor respiratory problems. Was hubby of a woman friend that I used to have a close friendship for over 15 years but that faded to nearly nothing in past decade.

It just sounds abit strange...nowadays in North America to die of such causes. I've known the wife since elementary school and know her well as a high achiever in every front --school, her career, her finances (when she was single, bought her own home 2 years after landing a full-time job post-university studies) and no doubt, her 2 children in terms of child-rearing.

I am aware he was a stay-at-home dad for a few years and did undergo depression. Not certain for all the causes.

I was told this news in hush-hush way via another mutual friend. :confused::confused:

Why is it I can't shake the feeling the reasons for his death are not stated as such...either to protect the children or whatever??

It is hard on surviving family members when a premature death occurs suddenly under rather cloudy circumstances or at least cloudy information communicated outside of the immediate family.

Maybe I'm just reading way too much into all this.

The question really is- how important is it to you to know exactly how this man died? If it's very important to you, then perhaps you should ask his widow directly, since she used to be your friend. If asking her would make you uncomfortable, then maybe you are not close enough to the family to actually need to know all the details.
Yes Alzeimer's can kill, as well as pneumonia. Depression and bi-polar disorder 'kill' too- if the sufferer decides to take their own life.
Expressing your condolences through a card or a phone call, without inquiring about the details of his death would be tactful.

Sorry to hear of the loss, although it sounds as though you weren't extremely close to your friend and her husband at this time in your life.

This may have no bearing on your friend's situation, but my mom suffered from depression and took her own life about the time I graduated high school. Other family members did not want to explain the circumstances and told my grandmother that she died in a car accident. It was easier for them than explaining what really happened.

Regardless of the details, your friend may appreciate a card or call of sympathy, just to let her know you are thinking of her at this time.
Sharon

The depression might have been an early symptom of Alzheimer's. Also, it is common for Alzheimer's sufferers to aspirate food or saliva, which can lead to pneumonia. Because Alzheimer's debilitates both the mind and body, the inability to fight off infection makes pneumonia one of the leading causes of death for Alzheimer's patients.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

It just sounds abit strange...nowadays in North America to die of such causes.

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My stepfather died at a relatively young age a few years ago... of a stomach ulcer (which the doctors knew about but were somehow unable to find and treat). I most certainly would not be surprised if your friend's husband did, indeed, die of the stated reasons.

I agree with Lisa...why is this your concern? If you feel that you have a place to ask, then ask the widow, respectfully. If you are just curious, well, you'll have to decide how curious you are.

Regardless of how he died, his death is a loss for his family and friends. Maybe it would be best to send your condolences and be there for your friend if she needs an old buddy to talk to.

Many many people die of pneumonia. Maybe he had more complicated problems than that, maybe he didn't... Maybe it was a strain of bacteria that was antibiotic resistant. Maybe he was immunosupressed. Depression causes immunosuppresion. However, since you were told this hush hush and aren't really close friends anymore... I really don't think that it matters how he died, it's still a terrible thing and isn't really any of your business... I don't see how it's face saving to tell people that he died of alzheimers or any reason to lie about that...

My sister in law was in a fire as a child and her lungs were severely damaged/burned. She ends up with walking pneumonia several times a year, and I'm quite certain that at whatever point she dies, she'll have pneumonia. And it may very well be when she's young. And she looks healthy to the average person, without knowing her history as a child it doesn't make sense that she always has pneumonia. And she lives in north america and has regular medical care, gets the standard treatments for pneumonia, she just can't clear it.

When my youngest brother died, I heard some of the rumors that were going around his school... "his family pulled the plug" or other ones going around the community and seriously... it was noone's business exactly what the details were of his medical history, and we really didn't need to recount them in great detail to any acquaintance to satisfy their morbid curiosity. And we especially did not need anyone questioning his diagnosis or anything like that.

My father had demensia in his final months - similar symptoms to alzheimers, but different cause. Actual cause of death was pneumonia.

Anyway, pneumonia was a result of his aspirating into his lungs. Aspiration was a result of his intense agitation when he was fed something he didn't like. Agitation was a result of demensia and a resulting inability to handle disappointment in a normal manner.

The line might not be a straight one, but the cause/effect is likely legitimate.

Care givers in a situation like this have a virtually impossible and thankless job. I'd let the issue die along with him.

Well said Mr. Silver


I work in health care and have seen and worked with many people with the above mentioned dx. Pneumonia is very tough to deal with alone, if you put other co-morbidities on top of that it is a whole different situation with many complications. I will have to agree with Mr. Silver....Let this issue die with him. I would not ask the family member what happened because it does not really matter, all that matters is that he is remembered for who he was. Sorry, but that is just my feeling on the issue.

I agree that offering condolences seems like the wisest thing to do.

And also that the cause of death seems pretty ordinary...

This is very sad.

With respect to everyone here, why is it that people immediately ask HOW someone died? Why is it important to you? With the recent loss of my younger brother, this has been the case with anyone I have told - how did he die? Was he sick? Because he took his own life, I am often, especially with people to whom I am not close, reluctant to share the details.

I agree with others who have said that sympathies are acceptable. Questions just bring up more pain.

My $0.02.

SheFly

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Originally Posted by SheFly

With respect to everyone here, why is it that people immediately ask HOW someone died?

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My sympathies for your very difficult situation. In answer to your question: Because we are human beings, and part of the way we deal with loss is by trying to find reasons and explanations where, ultimately, there are none. It's the same reason that we have, over the centuries, created various creation myths to explain our very existence. We need to know why despite the ultimate unimportance of it.

True, it seems very unfeeling and insensitive when the circumstances are less natural, but know that it is one way that people show that they care about both the deceased and the living. Asking those questions show that they're also affected by the death. When I had to deal with phone calls after my step-father's death, I never once had to answer that question to a stranger; they never asked. It was only the people who cared about him or me who asked.

That said, your point is well taken. When we are naturally inclined to express our sympathies by asking questions, it may be better to ask questions in the present, as in: What can we do to help you?

Shootingstar - condolances to your friend's loss of her husband. Alzheimer's can strike someone young. I had a friend be diagnosed at the age of 45, and die at 51, despite being treated with the meds to slow the progression. That's all they do, slow the progression. It was especially hard on his wife (widow) to watch her husband decline. She fought like mad to protect him, keep life at a routine, keep him normal for as long as possible. All we could do was support her. People think Alzheimer's is an "old" people's disease and it isn't necessarily so. You loose you mind, your brain atrophys, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

I took Alan to a state required psych evaluation - as the appointment was out of town, and their car wasn't up to driving the distance. Alan was already on disability for other reasons, when he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's by his doctor. So of course the state required their own confirmation. :rolleyes: Anyway, there were a battery of tests, but one of the questions they asked him (according to his wife Patti, who was with him, I was in my truck reading), was about his mental health, was he depressed. Alan said, "I'm loosing my F*cking mind, how do you think I feel! No I don't want to commit suicide, I want to live!!" Patti, comes running out to tell me, she has to laugh and cry at the same time.

So, I would give my full condolances to your friend, for whatever sad reason robbed her of her husband. Dealing with Alzheimers or dementia is extremly difficult for familys of those afflicted, the person you knew was gone, the body is there, but mind not-so-much. Sometimes the lights are on, or not. Or if they are, you may not know who's going to answer. Death can be a blessing in the end. :(

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Originally Posted by witeowl

True, it seems very unfeeling and insensitive when the circumstances are less natural, but know that it is one way that people show that they care about both the deceased and the living. Asking those questions show that they're also affected by the death. When I had to deal with phone calls after my step-father's death, I never once had to answer that question to a stranger; they never asked. It was only the people who cared about him or me who asked.

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My general approach if someone tells me that someone they know/love has died is just to express my sympathy, say oh, that's terrible it was so young... And just leave it at that. If the person wants to talk about it and volunteers info, I'll listen and be interested. But if they don't volunteer info on why someone died, I'll just share good memories I had of them if I knew them.

Generally if it's a good friend or someone I know, I already know that their father is sick with melanoma or something like that, so I don't need to ask "oh, what did they die of?"

So not asking why someone died on my part is mostly a - okay, someone's intimate medical details are not my business unless they volunteer it, and that's just often times a painful topic... I just find it's better to let people talk, because people do want to talk about their deceased love one... and my experience has been when I needed to talk about that sort of thing, most of my friends (okay, we were all young - so maybe this is different when you get older), would just rapidly change the subject because they really had no idea what to say or just couldn't relate.

Shootingstar, I don't find the cause of death surprising at all. The reasons for this have been well stated, so I won't repeat.

It's perfectly natural to wonder and be curious, but I think that expressing condolences and avoiding questions is the best course unless you know the survivors very well. If you have happy memories of the deceased, share those as well.

Death brings up so many things (our own mortality, for example) that I don't much worry about whatever thoughts pass through my head, but I try to be careful what I say. It's a fine line; sometimes people want to talk about the details, sometimes they don't.

My sympathies on your loss.

Pam

Yes, you should never ask unless you are person who is entitled to know (that would vary depending on the relationships involved). Offer your condolences.

However, there is a stigma attached to suicide, and I have observed it demonstrated in some of these posts. I'm very sorry for you if suicide has touched your life. There is no shame in the fact that someone you love was ill enough to commit suicide. The stigma, in fact, contributes to the incidence of suicide. If those who are suicidally depressed were able to know they weren't alone, maybe there would be less suicide. It is the fifth leading cause of death among 18-65 year olds! We shouldn't punish the families of those who have done it, and make them feel as if it should be a secret.

This is no comment on the cause of death of shootingstar's relative's cause of death.

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, outofthedarkness.org, if you want to learn more.

Karen

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Originally Posted by tulip

Regardless of how he died, his death is a loss for his family and friends. Maybe it would be best to send your condolences and be there for your friend if she needs an old buddy to talk to.

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Exactly. I couldn't have said it better. It doesn't matter how he died, the loss is there. My father committed suicide, and I don't mind that people know about it, but if someone had come around and started asking questions about it, I would have thought that was just plain nosey. I'm sure people gossiped about it, but no one asked me intrusive questions and I appreciated that. Not that there is any sort of stigma, I never cared about how it "looked", but it's way more personal than what others think. I just didn't want to be reminded that maybe there was something I could have done or said, and I would have wondered one more time why I wasn't enough to stick around for. I didn't want to talk about it. With ANYONE for awhile. Asking the questions is not necessarily a comfort for the family. Does it really matter that much? It shouldn't. I would think you would just offer your condolences. Then, if they want to talk, about it, they will. 20 years later and it still hurts. Think about that before you worry about satisfying any curiosity. If you don't know, and they aren't forthcoming about it, leave it alone.

I'm so sorry for their loss--it must be awful to deal with the death of a loved one so young (55 seems younger and younger to me these days!).

I think it's natural to wonder about the cause of death when it was unexpected or the person was young. In this case, though, it doesn't seem at all suspicious. Seriously, if they were going to make something up, don't you think they'd go with something more common? No one would question a heart attack in a 55 year old guy. The fact that the cause seems surprising makes me think that of course that's the real cause of death.

Sarah

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Originally Posted by wackyjacky1

The depression might have been an early symptom of Alzheimer's. Also, it is common for Alzheimer's sufferers to aspirate food or saliva, which can lead to pneumonia. Because Alzheimer's debilitates both the mind and body, the inability to fight off infection makes pneumonia one of the leading causes of death for Alzheimer's patients.

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Perhaps this was all it was. I have lost touch with the wife, the ex-close friend of mine.

As follow-up to Tuckerville's thoughtful observation about suicide in general:
Now that I seem like a heartless, curious soul about my ex-close friend, do bear in mind a husband of first cousin that our family knows well, her husband committed suicide. The family did not hide the reason for his death.

And it has been tough on his surviving children who were young at that time.

That's all folks. There is nothing much more to say because I'm too distant to know anymore.

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Originally Posted by Catriona

So not asking why someone died on my part is mostly a - okay, someone's intimate medical details are not my business unless they volunteer it, and that's just often times a painful topic... I just find it's better to let people talk, because people do want to talk about their deceased love one...

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All true. I never meant to imply that one should ask such questions. I just meant to explain that it's somewhat human to do so. My point was, "Here is why some of us can appear insensitive when we really just care," and was definitely not, "We should all be insensitive to prove we care."

I agree that the alternatives given in many posts here (primarily simply offering condolences) are what we should all aspire for.

Honestly, I think you're reading too much in to this. If someone close to me ended up committing suicide and I wanted to hide it, I could come up with a much more direct and believable cause of death than Alzheimers/pneumonia especially for someone under 55. Simply saying he died of a heart attack would do it.

I would not be surprised if the hush hush part is due to the Alzheimers. Mental illness (even though Alzheimers is not really defined as a mental illness) has a stigma attached, still. Especially at such a young age. I'm watching my second older friend go through it (the first one passed away at the age of 77), and it's absolutely heartbreaking. My friend now is 83 and has lived a wonderful life, but her husband, who is the sweetest guy I know, is 86 and fit as a fiddle (goes to the gym daily) and he's bewildered and lost with her going through this. I could not imagine how horrible it would be to see someone in his prime lose himself in this way. Maybe she just cannot bare to be reminded right now.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

Now that I seem like a heartless, curious soul about my ex-close friend

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I don't think so...your comment here proves just the opposite:

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

Why is it I can't shake the feeling the reasons for his death are not stated as such...either to protect the children or whatever??

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I think this kind of question and curiousity comes out of compassion and not heartlessness;)

I would much rather have people ask me why or how someone died, than be so cautious and careful that they end up saying nothing or changing the subject. When my brother died of a heart attack I talked about him all the time to everyone, to make the point that how he died was not a sensitive subject, and I needed to talk. But I guess this is personal, and I'm sure it feels quite different if you lose a friend or family member to suicide. On the other hand, maybe that person desperately wants to talk about that too but doesn't want to be the one bringing up something "overly personal". I don't know.

There was a suicide at my workplace about 2 years ago. We were told just that he had died, and then the rumours started flying. I was quite upset that people spent so much time and effort musing over this *based on nothing but conjecture*, at the same time people who probably did know said nothing. How and why overshadowed and seemed more important than mourning him. I asked my boss and the HR people to please have a short mention of this man, whom many people knew and liked, at the next large meeting, just before Christmas. They hemmed and hawed about the "appropriateness", but I pointed out that *not* honouring his name and his passing was in fact just as painful for those of us who knew him and missed him, but didn't feel close enough to go to the funeral. So at the meeting our boss said a few words about him, and yes, confirmed his suicide, and there was 2 minutes silence. It was good. All rumours gone, and people could talk about how much he was missed, instead. My only personal experience with this.

Shootingstar, I wonder if there is an east/west difference about how death and mourning is experienced? I know from other threads that some topics which were not talked about in my house were openly discussed in yours. I'm curious if this is one of those situations where what we think is appropriate is cultural, not universal?

You are absolutely not heartless! I have wondered the same thing about my bf's nephew, whose death is a mystery to us because his family didn't want to talk about it even to my bf, the deceased's uncle. His family thinks it's favorable to not talk about anything painful. His mother and I talk a lot about the weather. :rolleyes: Another case, in an unusually deep conversation where my bf's mother told me she had had a mastectomy, she also told me not to tell her son, even though the operation was when he was a child, still living with her. This is probably an extreme example, but we suppress a lot in our family.

My Nanny died last month of pnuemonia and alzheimers. The alzheimers would make her believe she ate and she didn't. It would make her paranoid where she would refuse meds and meals. The disease confused her and made her think she was going insane. It weakened her body to where pneumonia quickly killed her, it was barely a week from when she showed symptoms until she died. She also was bipolar, life long smoker, alcoholic and lets not forget a loving mother, friend and Nanny.

I read an article the last time I was at the neurologist about early-onset alzheimers in a women who was in her 40's. Although rare, it is not an unknown condition.

Although curious due to his age, it may be exactly what they said. This day in age it is shocking and I too am curious when something seems odd. I think when someone your own age dies you are a little more curious and question it. I know my Mammaw does and she is 92!

This is slightly off topic, but sort of related. A friend of my younger son died yesterday; Scott became friends with him in 5th grade when we moved to Boxborough. The friendship was really close, although in high school not so much. They had many friends in common. His dad was a teacher at the high school and was force to retire due to drinking problems. The parents got divorced. Dad now resides in Concord and I see him all the time at the train station and he appears to be teaching in Boston somewhere.
I always read the obituaries and was shocked to see this first thing this morning in the Globe. There was no cause of death listed, so I assume it's suicide. It really hit me hard. I haven't seen this kid since 2003. I felt better after signing the on line guest book and talking to my son, but it's just weird. I have dealt with death many times and rarely cry. Perhaps because those deaths were expected, I could imagine it and if I do that, I am fine. I am usually quite stoic, but this got to me.

I wouldn't necessary assume suicide... A lady on a yahoo group that I follow posted last week heart broken because her teenage/college age (I didn't ask but she was talking about how excited he was about going back to school) son just died in his sleep... They were doing an autopsy looking for a cause of death such as aneurysm, congenital heart problem, etc.

Suicide is only number 3 on the list of the top causes of death in young people (i.e. older teens and young 20's). Accidents are the cause of more than 50% of deaths at that age (car accidents being the most common, causing nearly 40% of the deaths) and homicide is next on the list, and then suicide, which is the cause of death in a little over 10% of cases at that age.

My friend was murdered at 30, his family chose to put no hint of cause of death in his obituary. The other thing is obiutuaries are generally not professionally written so some people don't know what to put, I struggled with this when writing one for Nanny and my degree is in journalism.

Well, around here, obituaries usually state the cause of death. A few times, I have seen "took his own life," but usually it's a person who is well known. The obituary was well written, probably by his dad, who is an English teacher.
This person was 24, so within the age for increased suicide risk, but the reason I suspect this, is that there is a family history of stuff like this. Not that genetics determine everything, but from what I read, it seemed as if he had bounced around a bit; still in undergraduate school, although he started right after HS. It's just a feeling, maybe I am making too many assumptions. I can't go to the funeral, but eventually I might find out something.
The military has hardened my son to death, although I am pretty sure that most people think I am "unfeeling" about these matters, too. But, I explained to him that when it's the unexpected death of a young person, it's different than someone who is fighting in a war. That's bad, but not an unexpected surprise.

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Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama

The other thing is obiutuaries are generally not professionally written so some people don't know what to put, I struggled with this when writing one for Nanny and my degree is in journalism.

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My aunt had 2 sisters and a brother, but her obituary only mentioned one sister (my mother). It's not like my cousins don't know the other aunt and uncle or don't like them, they just weren't thinking clearly and didn't get all the details right. I'm sure this is more likely when the death is sudden.

If it's a sudden death, I don't think the autopsy is done and the cause of death is always known at the point the obituary is written.

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Originally Posted by Catriona

If it's a sudden death, I don't think the autopsy is done and the cause of death is always known at the point the obituary is written.

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In Texas there are various laws on when you are required to decline one and when it is not necessary. We went through this when my Pawpaw died of a heart attack in a hotel. The county wanted a document showing he had been under the supervision of a cardiologist before transferring his body because he did not die at home, in a hospital or accident.