Ticketed for running stop signs

http://loudounextra.washingtonpost.c...form-cyclists/

Apparently the sheriffs were out ticketing cyclists who ran stop signs this weekend, including some who were doing the MS150 ride.

Personally I'm embarrassed by cyclists' comments like "we should have been warned." You know what a stop sign means, you make the decision to run it, so accept the consequences.

But I do have a related question for Kenyonchris, and anyone else out there with specific knowledge - what is required for a legally acceptable stop by a cyclist at a stop sign or red light? Is it okay to trackstand if you are at a complete stop, or are you required to unclip and put a foot down? And what about people who ride in small circles while at a red light and consider that "stopped"?

I believe Bob Mionske (the bicycling lawyer who used to have a column on VeloNews and now is on Bicycling magazine and wrote that wonderful book on bicycle legalities) says it is a gray area.

There was a case where someone did a track stand and was ticketed. They brought their bike to court and did a track stand for the judge and got the ticket waved. I don't believe that one is an urban legend, but I love the story either way.

ETA...oh I am a firm follower of the Idaho stop. But, since I don't live in Idaho I fully expect to get a ticket some day. It is the price I pay. I never run a stop with traffic and I come to a full stop with creep if the view is obstructed. Red lights are stops (although in Wisconsin if I can count to 45 and I have no cars to trigger the signal, I can and will roll through the light). But someday a cop will write me a ticket and I will say thank you and pay the fine...and probably still follow the Idaho law.

I know some places (notably San Francisco, California) where they make it a point that a cyclist MUST touch a foot down to be stopped. And cyclists do get ticketed for trackstanding at stop signs or red lights. I don't know if this is written clearly into the laws or if it has been the interpretation thereof though.

Personally I find this ridiculous (do drivers have to open their car doors and put their foot down to prove they aren't moving?).

I've never had a problem doing short trackstands when the intersection is clear. I'm not good enough yet to trackstand when there is traffic so I just throw a foot down anyway. Of course after 2 years in California I do tend to throw a foot down flat if I see a cop before I stop, just to be sure.

Heck, I've had cops try to wave me through stop signs that I have not completely stopped for yet! I didn't fall for that one, trap or not. I had no desire for a federal jurisdiction ticket (it was a military base).

I put a foot down and count to three for a stop sign. Traffic light, foot down and wait for green. If I'm turning right at a stop, I have been known to slow coast, pause, and roll right- if it's a wide bike lane that I'm rolling into.

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Originally Posted by ny biker

what about people who ride in small circles while at a red light and consider that "stopped"?

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They're obeying the traffic control device as long as they aren't entering the intersection. There's no law against timing red lights - motorists do it all the time. But "riding in small circles," besides just being super dangerous and stupid, is at least an illegal U-turn and likely a marked lanes violation too. :rolleyes:

As for a track stand, obviously the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove you didn't stop, but as a practical matter, if a cop doesn't see you coming to a complete stop, you should get a ticket. Who wants to waste a day in court because they didn't want to unclip?

Let's not re-hash the same discussion we've had a million times about whether California stops are safer than full stops and ought to be legal for all two-wheelers. Yakking about it here doesn't make it any more legal - go to your state's bicycle advocacy coalition or DOT bicycle safety director if you want to change things.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

As for a track stand, obviously the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove you didn't stop, but as a practical matter, if a cop doesn't see you coming to a complete stop, you should get a ticket. Who wants to waste a day in court because they didn't want to unclip?

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Many bikers can trackstand indefinitely, so they can CLEARLY be stopped without their foot down for well more than the 3 to 5 seconds required. Sorry, but someone would have to be blind to "not see you coming to a complete stop" if you where in a trackstand for 3+ seconds.

That's like saying you can't tell that a car stopped for the required amount of time unless the driver's foot is on the asphalt for that amount of time, and not the same thing as rolling through a sign or doing a split second stop and then continuing.

The issue then becomes what exactly defines a complete stop for a cyclist. Does the definition require a foot down (if so why), or does it follow the physical definition of stop which is applied to all other vehicles.

I've yet to hear a compelling argument for why a cyclist should be required to put a foot down (not just obey the traffic signs and stop for the required amount of time). In fact I haven't really heard a non-compelling argument either.

Of course this is moot for us mortals that can't hold a trackstand anyway, but I'm working on it, and yes, when I get it I fully intend to use it rather than unclipping.

The case Thorn is talking about happened in San Diego. about two degrees of separation from me. So its a third hand information.

Whether or not you get citation and pay a fine is dependent on the officer. Is he determined to issue a citation or not. and the judge who is willing to dismiss the citation or not because you were track standing.

and hmm... intent of the law --what it is supposed to do
and the mechanics of the law --which tells when its a violation or what you have do so that you are in compliance.

The intent here is that everyone must come to a complete stop. the mechanic here is that you put your foot down for three seconds... Their are plenty of lawyers here who can explain all this in very clear detail and how you could use the separation of the intent and the mechanics to "beat" the citation. I'm not a lawyer so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Stop signs require you to do two things... First stop, which is generally defined as ceasing any forward motion. You can track-stand, or better yet, put a foot down. Next, you're required to yield right-of-way to any crossing traffic, and not proceed through the intersection until the coast is clear.

Red lights are different. A redlight means to stop (again cease any forward motion), and not to proceed any farther until the light turns green, whether there's any traffic or not.

Tom

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Originally Posted by MartianDestiny

I haven't really heard a non-compelling argument either.

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Not that I can hold a track stand anyway, but not wanting to waste a day in court is plenty compelling for me. And I wouldn't even have to take a day off work to do it. :rolleyes:

I can put a foot down and still keep moving. I can stop without putting a foot down.

I usually do the former for stop signs (if there is any traffic I do actually stop). ;)

If there's a car anywhere near a stop sign in any direction that I'm coming up on - I stop, foot down. I prefer having the car go away.

If I'm coming up on a stop sign and it's completely clear of cars in all directions, I'll slow, but I do just go through it.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Not that I can hold a track stand anyway, but not wanting to waste a day in court is plenty compelling for me. And I wouldn't even have to take a day off work to do it. :rolleyes:

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I meant for stop=foot on the ground being the interpretation of the law at all.

Not that, given that your local authorities have taken the interpretation that stop=put foot on the ground, that you should or should not then put your foot down.

I made quite a bit more of a scene about my foot being on pavement when there was a cop around too when I was in Cali (I don't particularly want my ride ruined and I generally have to put a foot down anyway as I'm not good at trackstanding).

But I still have not heard an argument about WHY stop=foot down is the interpretation of the law in the first place.

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Originally Posted by msincredible

I can put a foot down and still keep moving. I can stop without putting a foot down.

I usually do the former for stop signs (if there is any traffic I do actually stop). ;)

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hehehe, I can too. Yet another reason why I don't get the whole "foot must be on the ground" thing. I'd say over half my bike club does that when going through stop signs: slow down, drag your foot for two to three seconds, and continue through with the rest of the group.

I'm not claiming I feel this should pass as legal stopping, but hey why not, their foot was on the ground for 3 seconds!!!

At my Tour de Cure ride this Sunday we were told that a cyclist got ticketed for speeding: doing 42 in a 35. I figure he'd think of it as a badge of honor.

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Originally Posted by MDHillSlug

At my Tour de Cure ride this Sunday we were told that a cyclist got ticketed for speeding: doing 42 in a 35. I figure he'd think of it as a badge of honor.

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That would definitely be a ticket I'd gladly pay and frame! Unfortunately (or fortunately) the cops never seem to be around when I manage to pull it off.

So do radar/laser speed guns work on cyclists? Or do the police have to pace them to get the speed?

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Originally Posted by Catriona

So do radar/laser speed guns work on cyclists? Or do the police have to pace them to get the speed?

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I've been picked up with stationary radar units (the trailer kind they park that flash red numbers when you exceed the speed limit) and hand held units by the police while riding my bike. Unfortunately (or fortunately??), I've never exceeded the posted limit at those times. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 7rider

I've been picked up with stationary radar units (the trailer kind they park that flash red numbers when you exceed the speed limit)

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Yeah, one caught me going eleven a couple summers ago. :) Look out!

I'm usually happy to be doing half the posted speed limit but two weeks ago I was doing about 36 downhill in a 30 zone. Luckily, no cops.

There's an awful lot of speed cams in montgomery county - I wonder if cyclists trigger them when speeding

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Originally Posted by 7rider

I've been picked up with stationary radar units (the trailer kind they park that flash red numbers when you exceed the speed limit) and hand held units by the police while riding my bike. Unfortunately (or fortunately??), I've never exceeded the posted limit at those times. :rolleyes:

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Me too.

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Originally Posted by Catriona

There's an awful lot of speed cams in montgomery county - I wonder if cyclists trigger them when speeding

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I keep trying to! :) My friends then pointed out that the cops wouldn't know where to send the ticket. So I told them that if I can ever trigger it, then after that, I'll wear my license plate number on my bum and hope they send me the ticket, which I will frame.

My worst speeding proportionally has been on the bicycle - 22 mph in a 5 mph zone (on an MUP, with nobody on it). The signs say that they use radar but I have never seen any evidence of it.

BTW I'd never do that speed if there were anybody walking on the MUP.

I've caught Harleys and cars on some technical descents too...might have been speeding a bit on those occasions as well. ;)

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Originally Posted by Catriona

There's an awful lot of speed cams in montgomery county - I wonder if cyclists trigger them when speeding

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There's one not far from our house, on a road that is one of our usual bike routes. DH tries to trigger it every time. :rolleyes: But...it's fairly close to an intersection and try as he might, he just can't get up to speed quick enough. :p

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Originally Posted by 7rider

There's one not far from our house, on a road that is one of our usual bike routes. DH tries to trigger it every time. :rolleyes: But...it's fairly close to an intersection and try as he might, he just can't get up to speed quick enough. :p

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I can't even do the speed limit in the spots I know of with speed cameras. Maybe I can do ~20 on a 30 zone.

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Originally Posted by Catriona

So do radar/laser speed guns work on cyclists? Or do the police have to pace them to get the speed?

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Radar guns do work on us. I once had a cop tracking me down a small hill -- fortunately, 19 mph in a 25 mph zone. The cop called out my speed as I passed and it was fairly close to my bike computer's readout, so they definitely can track us.

I have heard of cyclists getting pulled over for speeding, and I can only hope to join those exalted ranks one day. :D

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Originally Posted by kfergos

Radar guns do work on us. I once had a cop tracking me down a small hill -- fortunately, 19 mph in a 25 mph zone. The cop called out my speed as I passed and it was fairly close to my bike computer's readout, so they definitely can track us.

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Yes, one time on a training loop I passed a cop with a radar gun several times. The last time I passed him he called out my speed. He seemed pretty amused.

I've had one of the permanent "your speed is" signs catch me doing 32 in a 25 (downhill and I was drafting a stronger rider). REALLY wish there was a cop sitting there :(

I find some of the "traps" will read me and others won't. I have a bad habit of picking up 2 cogs when I find one that will read me...like it's going to help any because I'm normally doing 12-13 in a 40 :rolleyes:

There's a live chat at noon today on the Washington Post website with Capt. Thom Shaw from Loudon County. He'll be answering questions and taking comments about bike safety/rules of the road, etc. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061201539.html

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Originally Posted by Catriona

So do radar/laser speed guns work on cyclists? Or do the police have to pace them to get the speed?

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Sorry, ya'll! I was at the Bonnaroo Music thing in Manchester Tn., working mounted security on the horse.
In Texas, a stop is the cessation of forward movement. Make sure you do it behind the designated stop line (if there is one) or it doesn't count. Having said that, I can't quite track stand so I slow almost to a stop then go if it is clear...if it is not I wait my turn. Sometimes motorists get confused if a bike just slows....they think the rider may run the stop when in actuality the rider is just waiting for his turn without unclipping.
As for radar and laser...yep, bikes trigger it. I have never written a bike a speeding ticket, and don't bother stopping bikes for the stop signs unless it was a blatant disregard for the traffic control device, or the bike failed to yeild right of way to another vehicle.
As soon as my backside recovers from 12 hour shifts on my big horse, I will be back on the bike. I have prickly heat!

It must be somewhat of a letdown to write a citation to a cyclists? A rice burner H%ll yeahh!! but a bicyclist? Maybe not so much.

But anyway, I did watch with certain amusement to see a motorcycle officer writing 4 citations simultaneously in Redondo Beach. There is a trap on Promonade, a street right off the beach. He was watching me as I pulled up to the stop sign. Though I can do a track stand, decided to put my foot down anyway. Looook lefffft, look riggghhhttt. Think about a second then proceeded. I smiled at the officer as I went by. SHWEETTT!! Wasn't going to let him write a fifth citation simulatenously. NADA, NO-WAY.

My ultimate dream is to come screaming down a steep hill and get clocked at over 100km/hr.

Yes sir, I was clocked at over 100km/hr on my bicycle.

A bicycle?

Yes Sir!

not a motorcycle?

NO SIR! I was on my big box bicycle SIR!!

You can pedal that fast??

NO SIR!!

...

I think that would be an interesting experience. I would have to make a copy of the ticket and frame it. :D :D :D