How do I stop mashing???

I read the threads about learning how to spin (and not mash) and the exercise where one leg practices the spinning motion is not going well....at all.

I can barely get my legs to spin equally throughout the stroke! I can only do it with an extremely low cadence..and it's impossible in low gears. I can spin with both legs in higher gears on the trainer but not in low gears--I just keep mashing.

The other leg rides along during the one-legged exercise, correct?

On what part of the pedal stroke should I be focusing?

Any pointers that can help me with my frustration would be very much appreciated! :D

concentrate on sweeping your feet backward at the bottom of the stroke. Sort of like shuffling your feet backward on the floor.

on the upstroke, think of trying to pull your feet out of the pedal by pulling up.

At the top of the stroke, think of pushing your feet forward.

and where you normally mash. concentrate on just relaxing.

If you have a trainer, fluid or mag doesn't really matter, do the one legged exercise with the resting feet not clipped in. try to get your pedals to spin evenly. On a trainer you really don't have to think about where you are going or stopping so you can just concentrate on the spin.

Out on the road, ride on a lower gear and spin more instead of mashing.

And there is always a true fixie. Make sure you get a bike with a front brake. Now that will teach you to spin whether you like it or not. There is no coasting.

For me, switching to computer with cadence helped overcome some of my mashing tendencies. I aim a gear that I can comfortably spin at 90-100 rpms.

When I do one-legged drills, I unclip and rest my non-performing leg on the top of the trainer. It helps me rest that leg while keeping it out of the rear wheel ;) I also find that a slightly harder gear provides a little more resistance and actually makes it easier to do one-legged drills than an easier gear.

A computer with cadence helped me to get used to spinning, also. I've also tried the visualization of wiping mud off my shoe at the bottom of the pedal stroke. A better image for me, though, is to think of the pedal cranks and my feet as the hands of a clock-- I picture both of my feet going around in a circle just the way a second hand sweeps evenly around a clock face, and that helps to smooth my pedaling at any cadence.

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Originally Posted by smilingcat

And there is always a true fixie. Make sure you get a bike with a front brake. Now that will teach you to spin whether you like it or not. There is no coasting.

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...but I like coasting...:rolleyes: ;)

Thank you for all the pointers. I will try them next time I hop on the trainer :)

Mashing must be natural since so many of us have to unlearn it ;)

I've found the one legged drills to help - and with those, practice does make perfect. You'll have your "AH-HA!" moment, I promise. Do prop your other foot on the trainer or part of your bike so that you have some counterbalance, though. And, this will sound weird, but make sure to engage your core, especially on the upstroke.

I've always been a masher, and have ridden many miles in higher gears, etc. I'm highly competitive (no, not fast, just competitive - I'm in sales - it goes with the territory!) so I had this strange illusion that if I could ride up hills in a higher gear I'd be "better". Better than what, I have no clue! But, when I got my CAAD9, I had them install a cadence meter and I've been riding with Evil Coach Troy. I do cadence work once a week, and believe me, that helps so much. I remember riding up a local mountain where my average speed used to me 6 MPH. With a faster spin in a lighter gear I actually found I could ride faster (7-8 mph - still not a speed demon, but it's improvement!) and feel much, much better when I reached the top. That was another "Ah-Ha!" moment for me. Now I'm a huge fan of cadence drills.

Maybe you're meant to be a masher. ;)

I've been doing one legged drills with the other foot unclipped. It really helps you to focus on the dead spots in your "circle". They are like bad habits and hard to fix, but I think I'm getting better. I really hate to spin and love to ride a big gear, but I also burn up my legs well before I should, so mashing a big gear is a no-no for me :D !!

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Originally Posted by andtckrtoo

I've found the one legged drills to help - and with those, practice does make perfect. You'll have your "AH-HA!" moment, I promise. Do prop your other foot on the trainer or part of your bike so that you have some counterbalance, though. And, this will sound weird, but make sure to engage your core, especially on the upstroke.

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I do not have a cadence on my bike computer (but have been considering it). Now I remember why my other leg was clipped in during the drills: because when I was on the trainer, my dangling leg put a LOT of pressure on my sit bones! That lasted like 2 seconds....

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Originally Posted by sundial

Maybe you're meant to be a masher. ;)

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Maybe I can be a reformed masher ;)

I will keep doing cadence drills until my "AHA" moment :D I always try to engage my core but it is so weird because there's nothing else like it :p

The coach that I train with has us do one-legged drills. He emphasizes starting with slow cadence. He says that if you can do them slow, the faster cadence is easier. He prefers a moderate gear. He also states not to concentrate on the downstroke (it takes care of itself), but to really concentrate on the upstroke. Yes, most of us are mashers in our early cycling days.

Yep. I'm a masher. Just yesterday, I was trying to keep up with DH on a 30 mile ride. Sometimes, when my quads got tired, I would downshift and spin faster to rest. My speed would go up! Sometimes, just relaxing, makes me faster. I also recommend a cadence "thingy." I use a Garmin 305 that gives HR, speed, time and with the optional cadence.

Another thought on the pedal stroke is once you come through the bottom, think about driving your knee toward the handlebars (on the upstroke). It'll help you lift with your hip flexor and not mash down with your quad.

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Originally Posted by cunninghamair

Yep. I'm a masher. Just yesterday, I was trying to keep up with DH on a 30 mile ride. Sometimes, when my quads got tired, I would downshift and spin faster to rest. My speed would go up! Sometimes, just relaxing, makes me faster. I also recommend a cadence "thingy." I use a Garmin 305 that gives HR, speed, time and with the optional cadence.

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This is why spinning is good. For many people, it's not only easier on the muscles to sustain for long periods, but it's also faster.

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, we used to do downhill intervals.

Climb the hill, turn around, stay in your low gear, and pedal as fast as you can on the descent. Don't coast if you can help it, but stay in the low gear so you're just keeping tension on the chain.

The benefit of descending is that you have more gyroscopic force from the wheels than you would if you were pedaling on the flats and traveling so slowly that resistance is minimal. So it's easy to stay upright as you learn to smooth out your stroke.

Safer than motorpacing, cheaper and better scenery than rollers. :cool:

I've had this problem and just had a professional fitting on my bike. We figured out that lowering the seat and moving it forward just a small bit made working on the proper pedal stroke easier. I'm trying it like this for a few rides and we may tweak the adjustments a little more after we see how it goes.

The first ride after making those tiny adjustments, meaning a centimeter or less, was amazing. I still have to concentrate on breaking my toe-down habit, but it's easier and feels more natural to do heels down with the adjustments we made.

If you have access to a professional fitting, I highly recommend it.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, we used to do downhill intervals.

Climb the hill, turn around, stay in your low gear, and pedal as fast as you can on the descent. Don't coast if you can help it, but stay in the low gear so you're just keeping tension on the chain.

The benefit of descending is that you have more gyroscopic force from the wheels than you would if you were pedaling on the flats and traveling so slowly that resistance is minimal. So it's easy to stay upright as you learn to smooth out your stroke.

Safer than motorpacing, cheaper and better scenery than rollers. :cool:

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I'm with Oak Tree on this idea. This is how I improved my spin when I was first riding. I would go down a hill, not a real steep hill but a fairly low level downhill and I would put my bike in a low enough gear where if I spun, I was just not making the bike go much faster, but was spinning as fast as i could! The definition of spinning as fast as you can is, put it in a moderately low gear, spin as fast as you can without BOUNCING on the seat. The more you practice, the faster your spin will get.

Also, go up a moderate uphill, put it in a gear one or two lower than you usually ride and try to keep your spin cadence up higher than you are normally used to.

All of this takes practice, it does not happen overnight, but it will help you be a much more efficient rider.

At a club meeting recently, cadence came up. My husband talked about how doing a high cadence up hills has all of a sudden become easy for him this year, while still going the same speed he used to go or faster. The cycling coach leading the meeting said that dh's previous couple of years of slower cadence probably helped him with his pedaling technique, which now helps him efficiently spin at a higher cadence.

I would suggest you get your pedaling efficiency down before worrying about your cadence. This will ultimately help with our cadence.

Secondly, when you do work on your cadence, I would suggest just bumping it up a little at a time until you are comfortable with it. Maybe not on every ride and maybe not during the entire ride.

You've gotten good tips on working on one leg at a time. This is something I keep intending to do, but haven't yet.

I've read this entire thread and I'm still clueless...

What's mashing?

By using my keen deductive reasoning skills, I've eliminated --

Potatoes and philandering -- so you don't need to cover those, thanks:D

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Originally Posted by chutch

= I still have to concentrate on breaking my toe-down habit, but it's easier and feels more natural to do heels down with the adjustments we made.

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Is toe-down bad? I've come to understand heels-down from spinning class and it works when you need a switch.

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Hamentashen!

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Bless you!

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Originally Posted by zeWoo

I've read this entire thread and I'm still clueless...

What's mashing?

By using my keen deductive reasoning skills, I've eliminated --

Potatoes and philandering -- so you don't need to cover those, thanks:D

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Perhaps when you were a kid, you rode a one or a three speed?
And you came to a hill?
And your cranks turned real slow under the weight of your entire being?

That's mashing.

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Originally Posted by cunninghamair

Is toe-down bad? I've come to understand heels-down from spinning class and it works when you need a switch.

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I'm no expert at all, but from my limited understanding heels-down is considered more efficient. But I think I have read that some people have a perfectly efficient pedal stroke using the toe-down method. I also had a knee pain issue and am experiencing less knee pain with the change in pedal stroke so that benefit alone makes it worth it to me.

When I go in for a bike fit adjustment, the guy at the LBS always tells me heels down.

The best thing that I've found for mashing is single-speed mtb. It's kinda like the downhill drill, but on a mtb. Since you only have one speed, you are going to end up mashing up some hills, in which case you stand up, but you get a lot stronger and you learn to spin up the hills, and you spin spin spin spin fast down the downhills. Ss mtb's are great for power too :D

I have a fixie that I ride around school. I don't put many many miles on it, but it has DEFINITELY helped with efficiency too since you have no choice but to pedal.

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Originally Posted by indigoiis

Perhaps when you were a kid, you rode a one or a three speed?
And you came to a hill?
And your cranks turned real slow under the weight of your entire being?

That's mashing.

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Ahhhhh, something I don't need to concern myself with, I'll come back in a year or so and ask... I guess I'm being a bit thick -- I just don't understand the nuance between mashing and spinning -- and how you go about doing(or not doing) one or the other ... which I take it is explained in this thread in detail -- In other words, it's not that I don't know the answer... it's that I don't understand the question...I think I need pictures... :)

Touche.

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Originally Posted by zeWoo

Ahhhhh, something I don't need to concern myself with, I'll come back in a year or so and ask... I guess I'm being a bit thick -- I just don't understand the nuance between mashing and spinning -- and how you go about doing(or not doing) one or the other ... which I take it is explained in this thread in detail -- In other words, it's not that I don't know the answer... it's that I don't understand the question...I think I need pictures... :)

Touche.

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Spinning - a pedal cadence of 90 rpm (revolutions per minute) and more

Mashing - a pedal cadence of 90 rpms and less.

That is as technical as I can get

spoke

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Originally Posted by spokewench

Spinning - a pedal cadence of 90 rpm (revolutions per minute) and more

Mashing - a pedal cadence of 90 rpms and less.

That is as technical as I can get

spoke

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Not QUITE that simple - there are people who can spin slower than 90rpm. :)


zeWoo, I think what you're looking for is this...

Mashing is when you stomp on the pedals like you're walking up stairs! So you are only using the "down" part of the stroke with any power. When you get clipless pedals or toe clips you can pull up too but still mash because you are still only using the vertical parts of the stroke.

Spinning is about using your muscles to make sure that you are using the full circular revolution to push the bike forward. So this means you do push down at that part of the stroke, but you also pull up on the up part of the stroke, push forward over the top of the pedal stroke and drag back as your foot goes through the bottom of the stroke (or instead of stroke I should really say circle).

This is why all these helpful people suggest one-legged drills which show you how to smooth out your muscles in each leg to deliver your power nice and smoothly through all these parts of the circle your foot is moving in. And when you get it nice and smooth you can spin at higher cadences for longer and get more for less!

Funnily enough, I first learnt about spinning by reading Trixie Belden books when I was a teenager!:eek: The characters in the book went on a biking tour and one of the boys took the girls aside and told them about "ankling" which is the process of flexing your foot as you pedal (upward as you go through the top of the stroke and downward as you go through the bottom of the stroke) to enxtend the range of the circle through which you have pressure on the pedals. Wonder what Nancy Drew taught me???

This is a good foundation for spinning as it starts you using more of the circle. I recently did a ten day tour on a tandem with my ten year-old daughter and her mashing drove me nuts for the first day or two, as it really reverberates through the bike. I had plenty of time to chat with her about it (!?) so I talked to her about mashing and spinning. As it turned out the most effective way for her to stop mashing was for her to think about "doing circles" with her feet. In no time she was spinning like a beaut and anytime I got that stomping kind of feeling coming through, I would just say "circles" and she'd smooth it out.

I think a lot of the mashing vs spinning switch mechanism is in the mind!:) And the rest is muscle memory. Don't wait to try it - try it now and get good habits from the start and then you won't have to undo the mashing issues!

Ha ha, I KNEW I didn't dream that I'd read back in the '80s someone saying that you were SUPPOSED to ankle! :rolleyes::eek:

I've been working on un-learning that for the past about 4,000 miles. Old habits sure do die hard!

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Ha ha, I KNEW I didn't dream that I'd read back in the '80s someone saying that you were SUPPOSED to ankle! :rolleyes::eek:

I've been working on un-learning that for the past about 4,000 miles. Old habits sure do die hard!

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Why are you trying not to ankle? Some people will have a little more heel drop near the bottom of the stroke than others (more ankle movement), but in order to spin smoothly through the circle, your ankle has to move to keep constant force on the pedal. The only time I lock my ankles is in a sprint or anytime I want to try to eke out a few more rpms. When I'm already well over 100rpms, locking the ankles can get you to spin a little faster because it eliminates a little bit of wasted energy and wobble in the ankle....but I don't do it for long. I'm still far from using my legs like pistons at that point.

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Originally Posted by aicabsolut

Why are you trying not to ankle? Some people will have a little more heel drop near the bottom of the stroke than others (more ankle movement), but in order to spin smoothly through the circle, your ankle has to move to keep constant force on the pedal. The only time I lock my ankles is in a sprint or anytime I want to try to eke out a few more rpms. When I'm already well over 100rpms, locking the ankles can get you to spin a little faster because it eliminates a little bit of wasted energy and wobble in the ankle....but I don't do it for long. I'm still far from using my legs like pistons at that point.

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I hear you! I think I'm almost never not ankling just a little. I probably exaggerated it a bit more when I was learning and when I need to drill it a little (I get a little mashy sometimes on the MTB) but the rest of the time it's just a gentle ankling through the circle. Sometimes a little heel down on the entry to the bottom of the stroke to get just a little more pull through if I'm going up a hill too!

I have heard about shifting the cleats a little further back on the shoe and riding a little more "heels down" if you have serious problems with calf cramps. One of the guys I ride with has done this with some succes. But I don't think it would be really comfortable to stay in one locked position all the time if all else is well?

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Originally Posted by pinkbikes

I hear you! I think I'm almost never not ankling just a little. I probably exaggerated it a bit more when I was learning and when I need to drill it a little (I get a little mashy sometimes on the MTB) but the rest of the time it's just a gentle ankling through the circle. Sometimes a little heel down on the entry to the bottom of the stroke to get just a little more pull through if I'm going up a hill too!

I have heard about shifting the cleats a little further back on the shoe and riding a little more "heels down" if you have serious problems with calf cramps. One of the guys I ride with has done this with some succes. But I don't think it would be really comfortable to stay in one locked position all the time if all else is well?

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I dunno. I suppose that if you ride more toes-down then you could be flexing the calves too much that would lead to cramps. I tend to have a more heels-down kind of style naturally, and I got killer calf cramps today! haha I was doing some power starts, and I really pull up hard on those. Plus, I'm sure I was dehydrated.

I say if you are are comfortable and having no issues, don't mess around with your cleats.

[QUOTE=pinkbikes;414018]Not QUITE that simple - there are people who can spin slower than 90rpm. :)


Well, your definition of spinning and mine are different. If you are spinning less than approximately 90 rpm and are pedaling smoothly, you are "pedalling smoothly at a low rpm". If you are spinning you are pedalling smoothly at a high rpm, of over approximately 90 rpm.

I dunno nuthin' :cool: Aica, you know way more than I do. For me, it just started last year when one of my riding buddies commented that I was flexing my ankles too much, then two weeks later I went for a fitting, and the fitter (a pretty experienced fitter and tri coach) said the same thing. My massage therapist noted how my calves were masses of trigger points and adhesions and suggested I stop toeing off in all my sports (I'm definitely working toward a midfoot strike running, and honestly kind of dreading going back to teaching aerobics where toeing off is unavoidable). In the past year I've read over and over how the current practice is to drive through the heels.

I do start getting pretty bouncy around 110 rpm, but the truth is I haven't worked on my cadence in over a decade. I used to be pretty smooth, but I used to work at it too. :rolleyes:

So that's all I know.

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Originally Posted by pinkbikes

I have heard about shifting the cleats a little further back on the shoe and riding a little more "heels down" if you have serious problems with calf cramps. One of the guys I ride with has done this with some succes. But I don't think it would be really comfortable to stay in one locked position all the time if all else is well?

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I just asked my DH to check my cleats (spinning class is hard on them) and he asked if I liked my cleats all the way forward? :eek: I do have tight calves--may be I'll move them back a hair and see how it feels.

Something new to concentrate on this year!

I would work on the actual technique at whatever cadence happens before fixating on the exact RPM. My technique got a whole lot better when I got on a trainer at the bike shop on a February "open house" day and could just focus on the skill (with coaching from whatever video he had going).

We have two very fast riders in the club. One is slow cadence, the other fast. They both have efficient pedal strokes - it's just one goes faster than the other. I tend to have a low cadence myself. If I go too fast, I am more likely to "mash." I'm going to try those downhill drills (on what passes for hills around here) to improve my pedal strok when my legs are moving fast... could be fun :)

Ah wow, thanks for the explanation -- I guess I need to read a bit more, then I would have known what was what...

Thanks for taking the time...

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Originally Posted by pinkbikes

Not QUITE that simple - there are people who can spin slower than 90rpm. :)


zeWoo, I think what you're looking for is this...

Mashing is when you stomp on the pedals like you're walking up stairs! So you are only using the "down" part of the stroke with any power. When you get clipless pedals or toe clips you can pull up too but still mash because you are still only using the vertical parts of the stroke.

Spinning is about using your muscles to make sure that you are using the full circular revolution to push the bike forward. So this means you do push down at that part of the stroke, but you also pull up on the up part of the stroke, push forward over the top of the pedal stroke and drag back as your foot goes through the bottom of the stroke (or instead of stroke I should really say circle).

This is why all these helpful people suggest one-legged drills which show you how to smooth out your muscles in each leg to deliver your power nice and smoothly through all these parts of the circle your foot is moving in. And when you get it nice and smooth you can spin at higher cadences for longer and get more for less!

Funnily enough, I first learnt about spinning by reading Trixie Belden books when I was a teenager!:eek: The characters in the book went on a biking tour and one of the boys took the girls aside and told them about "ankling" which is the process of flexing your foot as you pedal (upward as you go through the top of the stroke and downward as you go through the bottom of the stroke) to enxtend the range of the circle through which you have pressure on the pedals. Wonder what Nancy Drew taught me???

This is a good foundation for spinning as it starts you using more of the circle. I recently did a ten day tour on a tandem with my ten year-old daughter and her mashing drove me nuts for the first day or two, as it really reverberates through the bike. I had plenty of time to chat with her about it (!?) so I talked to her about mashing and spinning. As it turned out the most effective way for her to stop mashing was for her to think about "doing circles" with her feet. In no time she was spinning like a beaut and anytime I got that stomping kind of feeling coming through, I would just say "circles" and she'd smooth it out.

I think a lot of the mashing vs spinning switch mechanism is in the mind!:) And the rest is muscle memory. Don't wait to try it - try it now and get good habits from the start and then you won't have to undo the mashing issues!

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...and I have another question :p

Am I supposed to ease up on the mashing motion to help with the spinning part? It is quite difficult to slow down the mashing motion...it seems impossible to match my upstroke with my mashing... :p :(

Make circles. Think about stirring a pot of soup - you don't go up and down or back and forth, you're going in an even circular motion.