Difficult work conversations: a gender perspective

I had an experience today that got me thinking about gender issues. I've noticed that, sadly, a lot of events targeted toward "women in science" are poorly attended and there just doesn't seem to be much interest from the women in science, particularly at the trainee (student/postdoc) level. To be honest, I felt this way for a long time, and it is as I've grown older than I've become more aware of how my gender affected school and work.

Today is a good example of that. I walked in to what I knew was going to be a difficult meeting, with my undergrad in tow. I had her with me mainly for moral support. She knew everything that was going on, and I had asked her to come to the meeting with me and to interrupt me if it looked like I was getting teary or emotional. She could probably explain what I was trying to say better than I could.

My soon-to-be-former-boss however is a traditional 51 year old white southern male. I have nothing against such a person, but... He refused to let my student stay in the office for this meeting. I was very angry. I seriously contemplated standing up and saying "If she can't stay, we can't have this meeting." Instead, I merely said, "You'd probably have less waterworks if you'd let her stay." And proceeded to prove myself correct in the subsequent animated discussion.

After the meeting, I thought about this some more, and I realized that if organizations are serious about diversity and gender and such, that they need to tell supervisors that if they have to have a difficult conversation with a female employee, it is a good idea to have another person present. I realized that if he objected to my student, his secretary would have been an acceptable alternative to me. (I call her "my" student. Technically she is if anyone's, his, but he sees her once in a blue moon, hardly remembers her name, and I'm the one she considers to be her boss. I write her recommendation letters and he signs them.)

That brings me to another issue: tears. Ages ago when I was an undergrad, I was on a netnews group (remember those?) for women in science. One day I posted that I don't like crying in front of professors and how do you keep that from happening? The first reply was from a male professor who ranted about how women precisely control their tears to get the most sympathy! A barrage of replies followed condemning him and supporting me but no one had an answer. I have an answer now: have a person with you to provide moral support. It's much easier if you can stop talking, swallow hard, but instead of an awkward silence that other person picks up with "What she means is..."

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I recall seeing a job ad at a major law library (one of the biggest in Canada) that clearly stated candidates must be good problem-solver, etc....and NOT cry under pressure... I was amazed to see that stated in a .....job ad! Hmmmm..that was 20 years ago.

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It probably would be a good idea though if a person's job is working with clients, particularily that clients that do affect the bottom line, that a person try their best not to cry openly in front of them.


In my first job after graduation, working in a place that matched my educational training, my first manager cried just abit in frustration in front of me. She made sure that no one else was around. I was a bit floored to see this dignified, gracious woman. It was over a management problem of she had dealing with some board members.

In retrospect for a newbie, she gave me a valuable, real-life insight in management that no textbook could give to me...

She continued to be a mentor to me...for the next few decades..

Melavai, that's a difficult situation. I've cried 3 times during a meeting with a boss (3 different bosses), just because my emotions got the better of me. All three were surprised as I'm usually only teary eyed for TV commercials and movies :D, and all three times I actually got what I wanted, but I did not plan any of the crying events, and was kind of embarrassed by them.

I've been in a meeting where I insisted that I have a witness. It was a gender issue and I was telling my boss that he had no right to question my reproductive future. It was the right thing to just have another person in the room to note that I handled myself with professionalism and to make a record that I'd noted the inappropriate comments and was requesting them be stopped.

Regardless of what your meeting was about, if it's going to be difficult, I think it's important for you to have another party there. Perhaps before the next time you can agree with the person you are meeting with who can join your meeting to give you that relief you need.

Or visualize butterflies. All around you, all around the other guy. You'll both look and feel better and be protected from the "slings and arrows".

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

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Originally Posted by LBTC

I've been in a meeting where I insisted that I have a witness. It was a gender issue and I was telling my boss that he had no right to question my reproductive future. It was the right thing to just have another person in the room to note that I handled myself with professionalism and to make a record that I'd noted the inappropriate comments and was requesting them be stopped.~

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Ridiculous that boss. When I was 5 years full-time into my career after university, I was delivering a presentation. Suddenly a manager in the audience (of 8 people), asked if I got home on time last night. I was so unprepared for that chauvinisitic line, that I got abit flustered and just ignored his line.

Afterwards a friend (outside of work) told me I should have comeback with: "Old enough to stay up all night". :p

He was an ex-fire chief/ex-firefighter that became a govn't bureaucrat.
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To handle conflict and negotiate with men at the same table, when I myself wasn't in that role on par/equal in my paid job...I found it most helpful..and without planning on my part, when I was involved as a volunteer for a national board for non-profit organization on human rights and race relations. For about 5 years....before cycling sucked me away. :D:)

There I saw how other women on the board dealt with the men... over difficult complex topics involving government policy, media relations, community-building, police relations, social support services, etc. It was great fun and great learning simultaneously. There were some highly skilled women with excellent negotiation skills. These women now manage social service organizations with annual budgets of several million dollars and over 100 staff.

I recommend that....volunteering for a board for a passion that you hold dearly.

Mel: I'm one that doesn't personally see this as just a gender issue...it's an issue to anyone that has a heart. By many standards it's a sign of weakness, but people with compassion often have leadership abilities that hard hearted folks can't replicate.

I have had employees - male and female - cry in my presence...and I handed them to tissue box and let them get it out of their system. But, I am not uncomfortable with tears - whether male or female...clearly these other guys are...

Crying is an emotion. Anger is too. If someone gets angry in a meeting and goes ballistic, it's as difficult to handle as someone being inconsolable. Crying may be seen as a weakness, but so is the inability to control a bad temper...and with the temper usually comes legal liability to a lot of "stuff"

Don't be afraid of tearing up, but don't allow yourself to be in a position of becoming inconsolable...get up, take a break and reach deep within for the resolve to clearly and constructively articulate what needs to be said. You might be surprised at how strongly and articulately you convey your point. Having a written outline of thoughts to fall back on can be very helpful in keeping your composure as well.

As to the "moral support" - go for it. No explanation is needed except that "XX is familiar with the situation, has valuable perspective, and can add moral support and depth to the discussion..."

Have you read "Emotional Intelligence?" I had a course on it at work and have read parts of the book. Being an emotional person myself (and someone who has cried in front of bosses), I found it an excellent read and I loved the course.

If you don't feel comfortable showing your emotions in front of someone, you'll need to come up with a way to do a "self intervention." My trick is to write--"strength" or "dignity"---on a notepad and take it in to a potentially tear invoking meeting with me. If I feel like I might start, I look down at the word.

If my boss can handle the tears, I let them fly. I tend to be very honest and it's hard for me to hide my emotions. Like Mr. Silver, I've had employees, including males, cry in front of me. It does not change my opinion of them. but then, I take a more "humanistic" approach to supervising/mgt.

OK, I have a different perspective. 20+ years in a "traditionally male" field. I see two unrelated issues in your letter. The first is whether or not you need a witness. Only you can answer that, given the situation. A manager with any sense should know that if an employee wants a witness, they should have one.

Second, you can't cry. You just can't, not over work stuff. To avoid it, rehearse mentally beforehand. Tell yourself regarding the boss 'I don't care, you can't hurt me, your opinion doesn't matter, you are too dumb to get emotional about.' Think about the subject, when you get to the point in the exercise where you are going to cry, find something else to think about to stay on topic. Take a deep breath, or two, then keep going.

If you are sad over personal issues you don't have to be in such tight control. But if it just job stuff, don't give them the satisfaction of seeing they hurt you. Part of being in the workplace is appearing tough and in control.

Melalvai, seems to me that you've made the right decision not to follow this guy to his next destination if he is this uncaring of your feelings. If he doesn't care enough about your feelings to allow you moral support then he's not worth uprooting your family for.

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Originally Posted by tc1

If you are sad over personal issues you don't have to be in such tight control. But if it just job stuff, don't give them the satisfaction of seeing they hurt you. Part of being in the workplace is appearing tough and in control.

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Maybe in control of tears over work-related matters, not necessarily tough. Every situation is different, but make those tears in public workplace as infrequent as possible. There's always the washroom to retire to...

I've worked for several male-dominant organizations, both terms of % gender numbers and also as reflected in the management composition, primarily men filling those ranks. Methinks most people would forgive tears if it's a personal family matter that you are trying to cope with, but it's probably wise to control those tears if it's job-related, out of public eye.

Not alot of people in an organization are jerks (at least not for the employers I've worked for, despite demands on employees). It's often just 1-2 jerks. Sometimes tears makes other people (bystanders) wonder how carefully they should treat the person who blew up in tears last time over a work-related matter.

Anyway, each person is different. Often I wonder at times, also it's the employee's family upbringing and other things in life prior to the job, that shapes a person's response to certain comments/situations. I know for myself, I was raised in a family that can be blunt/frank to one another with lots of noise, arguing, etc. If I have done something wrong at work, I need to have someone tell me bluntly in the face, otherwise an overly smooth/soothing remark might just bypass "deaf'/clueless me.

Unfortunately, in this society we suffer from paradigm paralysis, we're expected to emulate the dominant paradigm in the workplace even though it doesn't represent us.

It's time we start changing what is considered acceptable in the workplace. We're not robots and we're not men, when we are very angry or very hurt we cry, it's not good or bad, or unprofessional, or manipulative...it's just an expression of an emotion.

Well, I would not cry at work, if it was regarding a "work" situation.If someone was telling me bad news, or it was family related, I wouldn't care, but if I was in a meeting and the topic was a difficult one, but purely work, I would not cry. I cry fairly easily in other situations, but I really don't think it's professional at work. Sorry, but I think we all (both men and women) should be able to control our emotions in a work situation. It's just a job...

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Originally Posted by Crankin

Well, I would not cry at work, if it was regarding a "work" situation.If someone was telling me bad news, or it was family related, I wouldn't care, but if I was in a meeting and the topic was a difficult one, but purely work, I would not cry. I cry fairly easily in other situations, but I really don't think it's professional at work. Sorry, but I think we all (both men and women) should be able to control our emotions in a work situation. It's just a job...

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I admire your ability to control your emotions.

As far as what constitutes "professional" behavior, that is the crux of this discussion. Is any emotion allowed? If so, which ones? Is anger, joy, fear, or happiness permitted at work or is the workplace to be kept emotion free and level at all times? If some emotion is acceptable who decides what is "professional"?

I don't think that learned behavioral responses are necessarily a bad thing. I don't want to cry at work over a work matter any more than I'd throw my hands up in the air and "woo hoo!" at work over a work matter.

At work, the focus is business and emotions are more subdued. Not emotion-free, but usually responses are more "formal" (ie., a speech is given after a big success, a person takes some bereavement leave after a death in the family, etc.). If a person in the office is crying, then other employees are distracted wanting to know what's wrong and wanting to offer comfort, etc. Emotional responses are often seen as some kind of disruption, thus the learned behavior of taking steps to keep them in check.

As far as who determines what's acceptable and professional, that would be the person in charge at that particular business - or that person's boss, etc. Like it or not, well, that's the starting point.

I cry. I've cried in all kinds of situations. The pressure was huge at times.
I've got the talent for having tears stream down and being able to continue in a calm voice to say what I have to say. At least I don't unravel completely.

I've managed not crying in front of customers so far, which is excellent, but I don't think the advice just not to do it is a feasible way to go for those who are built too close to water.

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Originally Posted by Deborajen

At work, the focus is business and emotions are more subdued. Not emotion-free, but usually responses are more "formal" (ie., a speech is given after a big success, a person takes some bereavement leave after a death in the family, etc.). If a person in the office is crying, then other employees are distracted wanting to know what's wrong and wanting to offer comfort, etc. Emotional responses are often seen as some kind of disruption, thus the learned behavior of taking steps to keep them in check.

As far as who determines what's acceptable and professional, that would be the person in charge at that particular business - or that person's boss, etc. Like it or not, well, that's the starting point.

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+1.
Let's just step back...and think of any female managers/executives that any of us may personally know for any place we have worked...and those we have greatly respected. Most likely those who move further up the ranks /have been there for awhile AND who are highly respected by their peers female and male, and across the organizations....have at least outwardly behaviours at work, that are ..stable/predictable.

Sounds boring, but that is reality. But it doesn't mean being a robot or wooden. Helpful to know the corporate culture first. And helpful after being a new employee or working for a few years, to blend in professional and personal style.

++1.
What is professional in one industry is not in another. I work in a women dominated profession and I really can't think of a time when this has been an issue. We did, once interview a candidate for an assistant principal job. This woman, who was quite qualified, cried at the interview, sort of at the whole "passion" involved in working with kids. It was very uncomfortable for all of us. My boss told me she cried at the next interview, 1:1 with just the two of them.
I too, look at my boss as a role model. She is a passionate, professional who is a very nice person (but doesn't put up with any s***). I have never seen her cry, in 9 years. The only time I've seen colleagues cry has been in private conversations when they were frustrated about some situation with a kid, or more likely, a parent.

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Originally Posted by Queen

Unfortunately, in this society we suffer from paradigm paralysis, we're expected to emulate the dominant paradigm in the workplace even though it doesn't represent us.

It's time we start changing what is considered acceptable in the workplace. We're not robots and we're not men, when we are very angry or very hurt we cry, it's not good or bad, or unprofessional, or manipulative...it's just an expression of an emotion.

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Well said! I fervently agree that what's acceptable in the workplace must change. Not only aren't we men or robots, but the dominant, male-oriented ruthlessly-conquer-and-exploit model is what's got us headed for the fossil record.

But change agents are usually made to pay a high price by the defending power structure, and I don't know what to do about that. It feels hard to recommend to other women that they sacrifice their personal life goals and economic wellbeing in the service of a better world. Yet I'm not sure there's another choice.

There's a difference between tears & hysteria. What's the difference between emotional gestures of enthusiasm or disapproval or... it really is a cultural thing. Can a person cry and get the job done? I think sometimes...
There's a whole scientific side of it, too. For all that some of us can't help but cry, others can control it and use it... and I would suspect that some people can't help but feel extreme distraction and discomfort in the presence of tears, and others can.
I realized when I took a couple of courses in Fine Arts (how to do computer art - I'm still utterly left-brained ;) ) that heavens, those folks were just a whole lot more emotional. (No, I have no idea if that applies to FIne ARts in general or just those folks, but I did find myself saying "well, d'uh!") It was definitely a different culture and you had to learn to work within it. I mean, if I were crying over something in a class ... welp, if I did that regular-like I'd figure that meant I should change my major... because that wouldn't be normal for me. For some folks, though, it's just part of the creative process.

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Originally Posted by tc1

Second, you can't cry. You just can't, not over work stuff. To avoid it, rehearse mentally beforehand. Tell yourself regarding the boss 'I don't care, you can't hurt me, your opinion doesn't matter, you are too dumb to get emotional about.' Think about the subject, when you get to the point in the exercise where you are going to cry, find something else to think about to stay on topic. Take a deep breath, or two, then keep going.

If you are sad over personal issues you don't have to be in such tight control. But if it just job stuff, don't give them the satisfaction of seeing they hurt you. Part of being in the workplace is appearing tough and in control.

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Well, gee, I sure am glad someone finally clued me in how to hold back the tears. How could I have possibly missed such an obvious trick all these years? Obviously my place is in the kitchen. I clearly don't belong in the workplace since I can't keep my emotions in control. (Sorry if the sarcasm isn't coming across clearly enough.)

To everyone else--I appreciate your supportive comments and feedback. I agree that it is the culture that should change to accomodate women, not women who should try to change to accomodate the workplace culture.

My husband points out I should add that I am not an excessively weepy or dramatic person.

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Originally Posted by Queen

Unfortunately, in this society we suffer from paradigm paralysis, we're expected to emulate the dominant paradigm in the workplace even though it doesn't represent us.

It's time we start changing what is considered acceptable in the workplace. We're not robots and we're not men, when we are very angry or very hurt we cry, it's not good or bad, or unprofessional, or manipulative...it's just an expression of an emotion.

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+1!

I have all sons, all brothers, and mostly male cousins. I am president of the youth baseball league which consists of mostly men. I was in the Army. I have lots of experience working exclusively with men.

It is my feeling that people who respond negatively to tears do so because they find them an insurmountable obstacle. It's not anything that they can control. Men don't seem to be in touch with what their reaction should be to someone crying. Crying serves some evoluntionary/societal purpose, but we seemed to have lost what it is and how it works.

I don't understand why, but I sure agree with you, Queen. It's not wrong to cry.

Karen

Melalvai, you come across campus to the Vet School and I'll beat you until you learn to be a cold hard BIT--!! (insert lots of sarcasm here).

I've had two workers who cry and it makes me uncomfortable but I deal with it as positive as I can. I'm pretty sure it's hard for me because my mother cries at the drop of a hat and for some reason I saw it as a sign of weakness in her. She used to call me cold and uncaring because I didnt' cry. Her constant criticism of my lack of emotions certainly didn't get the outcome she desired! It's easy for me to blame her but in all honesty I think I was born this way.

I've known you long enough to agree that you aren't sappy, you are just in a very stressful situation right now.

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Originally Posted by Geonz

I realized when I took a couple of courses in Fine Arts (how to do computer art - I'm still utterly left-brained ;) ) that heavens, those folks were just a whole lot more emotional. (No, I have no idea if that applies to FIne ARts in general or just those folks, but I did find myself saying "well, d'uh!") It was definitely a different culture and you had to learn to work within it. I mean, if I were crying over something in a class ... welp, if I did that regular-like I'd figure that meant I should change my major... because that wouldn't be normal for me. For some folks, though, it's just part of the creative process.

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What has been really interesting where I work now....are cultural differences in management style even just among men. Many Canadian supervisors at our construction site are just amazed how much mean hollering/yelling the German suvpervisors often rain upon the labourers and tradespeople to get things done. It has infuriated some guys who aren't accustomed to that type of domineering vs. more diplomatic management/supervision...that they go straight to HR dept. to complain.

Part of the problem as well is what a person's facial expression looks like when they are thinking in a concerned way or engrossed in thinking about a problem. I've had people mistaken it ..for me, being distant and cool when that wasn't my intent at all. :confused:

I think the range of opinions on this is more interesting than the original question. I am not a cold hard b****, and certainly not devoid of emotion. But, I've been told that I think like a man :eek:. I seem to be able to compartmentalize things so the emotion of one thing does not get in the way of another. I see it as being realistic and pragmatic. People think there's something wrong with me because I am not sitting around crying about Scott being in Iraq. Well, he's there, he chose his career, and he's happy. There is nothing I can do! He wouldn't want me to be morose and I have plenty of things to keep me busy until he safely returns. If something bad happens, I'll deal with it, but I can't live paralyzed by fear.
Of course, I was the mom who never felt guilty about working, either.

When I think back to being driven to tears, usually I'm angry and fustrated, and not knowing how do deal with either emotion. Growing up I wasn't allowed to yell back, or explain why I did whatever it was I was being blamed for. Tears pretty much made the torment go away.

I think I finally got over it at work when an acting supervisor took it upon himself to *counsel* me after a difficult public meeting I was in charge of. But the man couldn't express himself without cussing, meanwhile he's spouting how well educated he is (he has a PhD in Education!). I told him that if he's so well educated, why can't he express himself without cussing? And if he's going to swear, I'm leaving. That blew the wind out of his sails. I was still captive, but I tuned him out. Can't even remember if he had any salient points on how to deal with the difficult individual from the public meeting. The man *couseling* me had lost my respect.

I think those of us who cry when we're getting chewed out, do so because we've never learned how to handle the emotions of anger and fustration. Doesn't help that we feel powerless, which adds to the personal level of anger and fustration. Having someone tell you to let if flow like water off a duck's back doesn't help either. HOW do you not let it bother you??? I don't know the answer, but holding onto whatever morsel of control you have over your life seems to help.

I have dealt with a lot of emotional law students and both men and women cry. Men don't seem to apologize about it as much, in my experience. I would be taken aback a bit if a student wanted a witness - but I would probably allow it. It would make me more reserved. I would probably wonder why they needed a witness to meet with me and if they were trying to set up a witness for some further action to stop something they did not like. I understand that was not your intent - just throwing in another perspective. It does sound like you are in a difficult situation.

I would never use the term "witness" if I just wanted someone there with me for moral support. A support person, an interested party, a person who can help me explain my POV, an impartial observer. You could even bring in a sympathetic superior instead of a co-worker to help get it straight. Witness implies litigation! Though, sometimes litigation is necessary....

The last time I totally lost it at work was when my co-worker (he was in sales, I was in support and we worked together on the same accounts), whose wife's name was also Karen said to me, "It's like I have a work wife, and a home wife."

ARrrgghh..I still shudder when I think of it, 14 years later That just betrayed the general attitude that I had already suspected, and I was so angry I said through clenched teeth, "Don't you ever even THINK anything like that again, much less say that to me!" and the tears started to flow and I left and called my husband. I really hated that dude, and to make it worse he was creepy in a physical way, his appearance made my skin crawl. I didn't stay there that long after that.

Now I deal with upset guys all the time--coaches yelling at me at tournaments, and stuff, and I've learned that if I just stay calm and focus on what their real issue is, I can address their issue without emotion. I put my body between a coach and an umpire who were about to come to blows just last week. (They won't hit a grandma!) It really ticks them off that I stay calm. I usually get apologies all around. :)

Karen

[QUOTE=Tuckervill;314754]I would never use the term "witness" if I just wanted someone there with me for moral support. A support person, an interested party, a person who can help me explain my POV, an impartial observer. You could even bring in a sympathetic superior instead of a co-worker to help get it straight. Witness implies litigation! Though, sometimes litigation is necessary....



My use of the term witness is probably because 1. I am a lawyer and teach in a law school and 2. I would probably feel that is the reason the extra person was really there (see #1 again)and 3. due to my personality I can understand the desire for a witness more than a third party for support.

I am not saying that is why the extra person would be brought along - just that as a prof. - it would be my initial response. I might then feel I needed another faculty member to be there too.
I am certainly not saying it is why the initial poster wanted someone with them.

Does it matter if the prof.boss/mentor is a woman or a man? Do you feel in need of support in general or is the gender of the other person important?

"Well, gee, I sure am glad someone finally clued me in how to hold back the tears. How could I have possibly missed such an obvious trick all these years? Obviously my place is in the kitchen. I clearly don't belong in the workplace since I can't keep my emotions in control. (Sorry if the sarcasm isn't coming across clearly enough.)" quoted from post

OK, so I thought in your original post you were asking for suggestions. I never said being in control was easy, it takes a lot of forethought, concentration and mental preparation. I said, and am saying again, that mental rehearsal helps when you know a bad meeting is coming up. I never said, or implied, that you don't belong in the workplace.

I still think, from what I have seen in my job experience, that the truth as is usual lies somewhere in the middle. Women need to toughen up a bit, men need to be a little less tough.

I try to keep in mind that work is work; it's business, it's not personal. When things get frustrating, I remind myself of that, and that helps me keep my emotions under control. I have never cried at work, but that's not to say I haven't gone home afterwards and bawled my eyes out! :p

I have a co-worker who cries at everything. She simply can not handle even the most well-intentioned constructive criticism, however nicely it's put to her. I have even seen her do the hand-to-the-forehead-and-collapse-to-the-floor-in-distress routine. The rest of us literally step over or around her as we go about our jobs -- we don't even notice it anymore!

I used to be much more emotional, and didn't take criticism very well. It's hard to not take it very personal. Then Katrina hit. Work stuff doesn't bother me very much anymore. The only time I had trouble was the judges score I received on a re-creation of a 16th century fashion doll. THAT I put my heart and soul into, and their "Wow!" but..." remarks were a bit difficult to handle. (in case you're wondering, here's the doll http://home.earthlink.net/~bmccasland/index.html )

So I don't recommend being scared out of your life, watching everything you knew as *normal* turn totally upside down, knowing that life will never be the same again, as a way to learn to not take things so personal. But it does give one perspective :D:p:D

However, if work or significant other has little more to say but put-downs. "You're nothing without me." It's time to change horizons. Or let them move on without you. And don't let the door hit them out the way out.... :p