Farmers ask for ordinance against bicycling on roads

:( :( :( The animosity of this area against the cyclists is huge. Is there any way to difuse it?


http://poseycountynews.com/news/02.htm


The Posey County Commissioners met last week to handle several items of business, but focus seemed to turn to the safety of the county’s roads.

Carl Schmitz approached the commissioners to talk about the problem of bicycling on the county roads, especially during planting and harvesting seasons. He cited specific problems on St. Philip and Stierley Roads.

He told the board that he is a farmer and his truck driver was recently verbally accosted because of corn cobs being on the road from the harvest.

He said he is worried about the riders safety from the debris in the roads but also because they do not follow traffic laws while riding. He said it is hard to stop heavy loads quickly when these riders dart out in front of the tractors or trucks pulling equipment or hauling loads.

The commissioners said they have received numerous calls on this matter.

Sheriff Jim Folz said that bicyclists are supposed to follow the same rules as vehicles, but they seldom do.

Schmitz asked the commissioners to look into an ordinance to control the riding on these roads for the safety of the riders and the farmers.

Wow, that is a mixed bag of yuck.

I don't ride the country roads during harvest around here intentionally. We live in the Potato Capital of Idaho. It really is not worth it to me to risk riding during those two or three weeks when the big farm trucks are doing their business. We have spuds on the road and dirt from the fields, as the spuds are dug out of the ground and it gets very muddy and dries in huge clod like clumps.

I see the farmers point of view on this - it really is a safety issue. They aren't trying to flex their farmer muscle. Those trucks carry LOTS of weight. We have had trucks loaded too full tip over when rounding corners. I can't imagine stopping quickly at all. Especially in light of the fact that the farm trucks aren't maintained all that well. They just need to run for one harvest and lots of times they are fixed with the bare bones to get the farmers through the seasons. Maintenance is just one more thing that eats into their profits, and running a farm is very costly.

I have worked several harvests personally, and I wouldn't be able to stop a truck for a cyclist or maneuver well between the cyclist and oncoming traffic on a narrow country type road. The slightest movement in the steering of the truck sends the load rocking a bit.

I don't know how things work around there, but our harvest is so busy that they shut school down for two weeks so that the farmers can have the kids for extra help.

Nothing freaks me out more than a newly licensed kid driving a huge truck full of potatoes on a little sleep while texting a buddy and driving next to ME on my bike :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I am surprised that the bike clubs in the area don't promote this safety idea themselves.

I'd be willing to bet that they have cyclists best interest in mind if they take the time out of a super busy harvest day (12 + hours of hard manual labor) to go to the city with this request.

My $ .02

I think your best be is to first write a letter to the commissioners and second, to appear at a meeting.

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Originally Posted by silver

The commissioners said they have received numerous calls on this matter.

Sheriff Jim Folz said that bicyclists are supposed to follow the same rules as vehicles, but they seldom do.

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I would ask how many cyclists have been cited and how many actual calls were made and by whom? Sounds like someone already has decided, but changing a law without accurate information seems like very poor governing.

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Originally Posted by Mr. SR500

I would ask how many cyclists have been cited and how many actual calls were made and by whom? Sounds like someone already has decided, but changing a law without accurate information seems like very poor governing.

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Exactly. It sounds like the cyclists must be getting a heck of a lot of tickets from the sheriff's statement, but am I the only one that doubts that that's the case? Personally I think that cyclists that break the law should be ticketed just like other vehicles.

Protecting the safety of individuals is so often used as a reason for taking away the rights and privileges of a group. Frankly, I just think they are annoyed as much as anything by the presence of cyclists on their road. It's the same old story, different tune. And ironic, I think, because how many people complain that tractors and slow-moving farm vehicles ought to stay off of the road. How many of us would like to have roads free of motorized traffic? How many cars would like no bikes or tractors? But guess what, we all have to share the roads.

I'd sure be calling those commissioners to share my side of the issue, and start attending those meetings!

Anne

P.S., ok, now that I've had my rant... as far as defusing the situation, what works for me in talking to motorists that think cyclists should stay off the roads is first of all to do it in person, to explain my side of the situation while trying to understand the other viewpoint. It's a lot easier to get mad at a whole group 'the lycra army' (as the term is around here) because of the bad behavior of a few (i.e., the guy that yelled at the farmer) than it is to maintain that image when talking to real, reasonable people.

First off, attend the meetings. Speak your case firmly but politely. Be friendly. Don't wear bike clothes. Encourage the police to ticket anyone breaking the law during this time period especially. Encourage all sides to know what the law is and how it applies to all vehicles. Encourage other cyclists to be especially safe/visible. Encourage the county (or farmers) to clean up the roadside debris.

Anne

I have talked to the county auditor (seems to be the one who keeps the minutes and schedules speakers)

the president of the county commissioners and the Chief Deputy Sheriff.

I will be attending the county commissioners for the next several months.

For the most part, I believe that everyone knows that it is not feasible to enact an ordinance like this. But there is so much bad attitude and misinformation. I'm trying to sweetly speak to everyone and try to tell the other side of the story.

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Originally Posted by silver

But there is so much bad attitude and misinformation. I'm trying to sweetly speak to everyone and try to tell the other side of the story.

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Exactly what I had in mind. Let them see someone in person, especially a well spoken woman.

I recall my folks always being extra nervous and cautious on the road during hay season. Those semi trailers overloaded with hay bales were really a hazard! Logging trucks are another one, quite similar but with a longer "season" (year round). This is cheap stuff relative to volume, so they pile on as much as they can per load and drive it as fast as they can. The wind drag is worse than most "ordinary" trucks create. Some cousins of my mom's were killed on their honeymoon when the little sports car they were driving got sucked in under a hay truck. Just imagine what would happen to a bike! :eek:

So of course, in hay season, I'm still extra careful. That said, shouldn't it be the other way around? It's the truckers who are driving a "murder weapon". Shouldn't the ordinance specify that they're the ones who need to reduce speed and show extra caution, show awareness of the physics of their load?

Although I agree with everyone about murder weapons, I cannot for the life of me understand how a bicyclist could have mouthed off about corn cobs being in the road! If he doesn't want corn cobs, he can ride in the city and worry about broken glass!
It sounds to me like there are attitude problems on both sides here. When we ride in farm country, we wave at the farmers and count the onions, pumpkins, corn cobs, etc as "road kill" and laugh about it. Sure, any of those things could cause us to wreck our bikes, but that's why we have eyes...

Silver, good luck with your officials. It sounds like you have some bikers there making it worse for everyone.

I rather like the idea of responding to the "cyclists never obey the law" with asking "oh, so can you tell me how many more tickets they get? Then... perhaps it is a perception because we don't even notice automobile drivers disobeying laws?"

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Originally Posted by Geonz

I rather like the idea of responding to the "cyclists never obey the law" with asking "oh, so can you tell me how many more tickets they get? Then... perhaps it is a perception because we don't even notice automobile drivers disobeying laws?"

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Yeah every time there is a bicycle incident around here we hear the same thing - those cyclists they never obey the laws. I highly doubt that cyclists break the laws in greater proportions than cars. How many times do you see a car slide through a stop or speed down a residential street? 99% of them if you ask me, but no one notices those people. Breaking the rules is acceptable if you are driving and a cause to kick you off the streets if you're a cyclist. There is a real double standard.

Yesterday while riding i timed my stop sign stops and the cars. I made sure we were equal.
But I Know what REALLY gets them. It's when there is a long line of cars and an ample shoulder or bike lane. The cars are all stopped, and the bike breezes to the light/stop sign does the same sort of stop the cars like to do, and passes all 10 of them. THAT's the whole deal. right there.

Too bad. they don't like it, leave the gas guzzlers at home.

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Originally Posted by mimitabby

But I Know what REALLY gets them. It's when there is a long line of cars and an ample shoulder or bike lane. The cars are all stopped, and the bike breezes to the light/stop sign does the same sort of stop the cars like to do, and passes all 10 of them. THAT's the whole deal. right there.

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Filtering up to a red light, or otherwise passing on the right like that is one of the quickest ways to get hit/run over and/or killed by a car... Looking thru a lot of bike accident statistics and descriptions over the past couple of months, it's the most common cause of bike/car collisions. When you're stopped like that, most folks simply aren't looking for somebody to be passing on the right. The "How Not to Get Hit by Cars" web site (http://www.bicyclesafe.com) refers to this situation as the "Right Hook," and the "Red Light of Death." You especially don't want to be coming up on the right of a semi tractor-trailer... when they're turning, the trailer rig swings in and can easily roll the back wheels right over you.

The proper way is to take the lane, e.g., position yourself directly behind the vehicle in front of you, and take your proper turn in line when going thru the intersection. First of all, you're not putting yourself in a position to get right-hooked, and you're showing your good manners by not giving these guys an opportunity to let their normal degree of road rage bubble over by having to pass you all over again before the next intersection. :rolleyes:

you're right PP, but we have bike lanes and they ARE on the right!
I have just one place where this happens; where people turn right and i am on the right side of them. It's a 6% grade hill, so i can't go up it very fast. I keep to the right to be kind to the drivers. When I get to the intersection, I stop and make eye contact with cars (and check for turn signals ) before I continue into the intersection. If i am actually in the front of the line, I make decisions based on whether or not the lead car is turning.

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Originally Posted by Geonz

I rather like the idea of responding to the "cyclists never obey the law" with asking "oh, so can you tell me how many more tickets they get? Then... perhaps it is a perception because we don't even notice automobile drivers disobeying laws?"

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Yes, I specifically discussed this with the president of the County commissioners. He emphasized that he has now authorized the sheriff to begin ticketing the bicyclists for their offenses. :confused: I pointed out to him that they had the authority to do that priviously and that no one (apparently....I asked and no one knew of any bicyclists being ticketed) had been. He agreed that the law should be applied to both motor vehicles and bicycles equally.

I've found that as I talk to them they tend to neutralize their opinion. I'm trying to give a face to the nameless cyclist.

I asked each person that I talked to if they had actually seen any cyclist break the law while cycling or if it was only heresay. The Deputy that I talked to said that the only bicyclists that he had seen break the law were kids. He said that what he considered a much worse problem were the kids on scooters/mopeds and the 4-wheelers. Posey county just recently passed an ordinance to ALLOW 4 wheelers on the county roads. None of the surrounding counties allow them. Hmmmmm.....don't think those thingies are licensed....do you?

I rode 64.5 miles today giving extra attention to obeying every law. I think that maybe I slow rolled two stop signs out of 20-25. And they were practically track stands. Car infractions that I saw: 2 cars cut corners in turns. One car passed me doing at least 50 miles above the 40 mph speed limit. An SUV passed me going up a hill where oncoming traffic was hidden. I could hear the oncoming vehicle but the Suv could not apparently. He (and another SUV) did not give me 3 feet of passing clearance. At least 10 motor vehicles "blew" through stop signs and I was practically attacked by two dogs. It was a good ride, I'd say! :rolleyes:

Oh and then...taking the lane at stop signs. I was riding up to a stop sign. I was on the right side of the lane. I saw that there were cars approaching from behind, but a ways back. I signaled a quick left to indicate that I was moving to the left to more fully take the lane, so that I could "hold" my place in line and wouldn't be to the right side of the stopped traffic. And I began to more leftward. So, what did two cars do? The moved to the left and pulled up around me, cutting me off! :mad:

*rant over*

Hmmmm. How about riding with a helmet-cam some days to document this kind of thing? Edit it down to a video to present for the commissioners ...? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Duck on Wheels

Hmmmm. How about riding with a helmet-cam some days to document this kind of thing? Edit it down to a video to present for the commissioners ...? Just a thought.

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I've honestly thought of that!

Oh...I really should say that I really do respect the needs of the farmers. I personally do give them a lot respect and courtesy. I seen the corn and corncobs on the road and wondered how much money they are losing for leaving so much behind, but I've never really considered it a huge hazard. I'm aware to watch for it and for the farm equipment during the havest season. I watch for the equipement. I even come to a full stop and wait for them if I see that they are needing the road. I know that they work long hours to get the havest in as quikly as possible. They are usually very friendly to me and wave me by when they can.

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Originally Posted by mimitabby

you're right PP, but we have bike lanes and they ARE on the right!

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We have bike lanes on the right, too. Some are separated from the road and are only on one side of the road so for one direction, bikes are actually "on the left." I avoid those as much as I can. Don't like them at all - too many safety issues.

When I am using those, though, at intersections I usually (and especially when I'm "on the left") cross like a pedestrian and walk the bike across. I hate doing that as much as any other cyclist, but cars just don't see the bikes in those situations - I've noticed that both as a cyclist and when I'm driving. Cars don't always see pedestrians either, but it's a better bet that a pedestrian will be anticipated. As far as I know, the proper way to cross isn't specified in our laws. It's a designated bike lane - although it's also a sidewalk. I e-mailed the contact person for our city's bikeways program and he said "You should probably ride across since you're a vehicle, but you could walk as well . . . "

Deb

Our "bike lane" system is also inherently unsafe. Much of that is, I believe, because since they were put in, roads have been changed withouth a thought given to the effect on bicycle traffic. Some of it's just lousy design - nice path ... oops, it ends. Where I'd have to go across a busy road, against traffic... or the place where the bicycle lane goes right between a bus stop and the shelter for it... a very *busy* bus stop where the shelter is generally overflowing... onto the bike path... even when nobody is loading and unloading which is frequent because it's a busy bus stop.

I spent much of my life in Minneapolis which is very nice for the biker: bike paths and wide roads with shoulders practically everywhere.

Now I live in York County, Virginia and it pretty much sucks. All the towns and cities around here are designed for motorists - not pedestrians or cycists. Narrow roads, no shoulders to speak of, very few sidewalks and only on the main drag, ...buses run once an hour, so if you don't have a car you're SOL...

Having said that, I live in a large residential area with lots of kids who consistently bike down the wrong side of the road, don't wear helmets, wear dark clothing when biking at night, etc. And you can't point out to them what they're doing wrong because you're 30 years older than they are and they pay no attention...

But the real loons are a handful of skateboarding teens who seem to like to play chicken in the middle of the road with oncoming cars...that's gonna end in tears one of these days, I'm sure...

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Originally Posted by silver

I've honestly thought of that!

Oh...I really should say that I really do respect the needs of the farmers. I personally do give them a lot respect and courtesy. I seen the corn and corncobs on the road and wondered how much money they are losing for leaving so much behind, but I've never really considered it a huge hazard. I'm aware to watch for it and for the farm equipment during the havest season. I watch for the equipement. I even come to a full stop and wait for them if I see that they are needing the road. I know that they work long hours to get the havest in as quikly as possible. They are usually very friendly to me and wave me by when they can.

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The sad thing like always is they probably have one or two disrespectful cyclists making an impression. Out where my husband's Oma lives they have open range ranches, as in no fences. Cattle are typically in the road and my husband's mother said they have problems with cyclists disrespecting the cattle (who legally have the right of way in open range). :confused: This is the TX Hill Country with lots of cyclo-touring.

Hope your situation works out. It sounds like a sheriff with a chip on his shoulder and a poor farmer who is stuck in a sticky situation. He (the farmer) probably didn't care for the longest time about cyclists but something has changed.

How would cyclists disrespect the cattle? Those cyclists just don't realize how they could get hurt, do they?

Karen

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

How would cyclists disrespect the cattle? Those cyclists just don't realize how they could get hurt, do they?

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Sort of like a dog chasing cars... it's all the greatest of fun until that one day when he actually catches one (or vice versa).

;)

Tom

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

How would cyclists disrespect the cattle? Those cyclists just don't realize how they could get hurt, do they?

Karen

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I think they have thrown things at them? You know I really didn't ask her what she meant. I already thought that not letting the cows be on the way was stupid. Cattle startle so easily, I usually just let them have the road and stand there in amusement. Back to Silver's thread....

update:
Monday I attended the posey county commissioners meeting. There were about 8 cyclists there. The cyclists were given the opportunity to speak for the right to share the roads. It went OK. I still have issues with the club's attitude towards the crash and that people in the area seem to group bad cycling behaviors with the crash (in which the cyclist was obeying the law and the motorists wasn't). But overall it seemed to be the attitude that we should all try to live together and be curteous to one another.

Here's the news story. I'm not in it.

http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=3301

I looked at the news clip. I must have missed some of the details of the story in earlier posts, but the widow of the cyclist is suing the bike club? It's sad what she's been through, but how can that kind of iffy blame game possibly make her feel better? My heart goes out to her, but I know my husband would prefer that I do something a little more positive to make things safer for the future than blame a group he was probably friends with.

It was good to hear the commissioner saying that the plan is to help make it possible for cyclists to come to the area and ride safely. Aside from "this person's rights" and "that person's rights" and which one prevails, a better general attitude of everyone getting along is much better - more fair to everyone, and more likely to keep the peace.

Deb

Silver:

One of the points of contention being the farm vehicles strewing corncobs along the road, you may want to check Indiana's roadway and litter laws and see if the state has a statute like this one:

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27-51-1405. Throwing destructive or injurious materials on highway prohibited.

(a) No person shall throw or deposit upon any highway any glass bottle, glass, nails, tacks, wire, cans, or any other substance likely to injure any person, animal, or vehicle upon the highway.

(b) Any person who drops, or permits to be dropped or thrown, upon any highway any destructive or injurious material shall immediately remove it or cause it to be removed.

(c) Any person removing a wrecked or damaged vehicle from a public highway, as defined by § 27-51-101, shall remove any glass or other injurious substance dropped upon the public highway from the vehicle.

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I'm sure the laws in the Corn Belt are as protective of farmers as they are here in the Cotton Belt... but this is a good statute to keep in mind for this issue as well as those retread tire casings that truckers keep scattering everywhere...

Tom

Thanks Tom, Mr. had mentioned that too. I need to educate myself more on the laws.

I'm still interested in pursuing my LCI, but right now it seems that all doors have closed.

I went to the following meeting last Monday. There was nothing scheduled concerning Cycling but I felt that I needed to go just in case anything came up. I was asking myself did I really need to go. I answered myself, yes, I did need to go, because that's what a cycling advocate does. And that's what I am.....a cycling advocate!

Cycling wasn't mentioned. I'll be at the next meeting and the next.