Some Body Part Needs Strengthening

I'm not really sure if this is a new riders question or exactly what, but I think it applies to being a new roadie -- at least for me!

So here's my situation: I'm riding along, and everything's really very comfortable, but...

No, I didn't say my butt! :D

It's in my shoulders, and it's in my neck, and what's going on, and maybe this is from my downhill runs, cuz it's not all the time, but I did two of my downhills on "my" hill today, which is kinda winding, so I spend most of the trip down on the brakes. HARD on the brakes. What I find is that my shoulders are up by my ears, and after a while, that HURTS!:eek: And that hurt lingers. It's, you know, that tensed up ache thing, and I was thinking that I need to learn to keep shoulders back and down and then I wouldn't do that pain to myself when I'm riding!

SO, what should I strengthen to help make it "preferable" for my body to keep shoulders down and back without having to think about it real much. No gym membership, make these at home, minimal equipment things, please!

(braking muscles in fore-arms hurt when doing that downhill thing too, but I KNOW what's going on there: I'm deliberately torturing them! Up-side today: they are getting stronger, and I was letting myself go just a weensy bit faster on that down hill run!)

Karen in Boise

Karen, there will be far more knowledgeable people here than me but maybe it's a bike fit thing? Maybe your stem should be raised a bit until you work into it? I get that soreness too but it isn't that bad.

The forearms though? Ooooh do I know about that one :rolleyes: I am the weeniest of the weenies when it comes to downhills. There are times downhills hurt more than uphills!!!

That's definitely a stem raising issue.

You don't need a gym membership to build the muscles you need for riding. Your "core" is the base for your extremities, that should be your greatest strength training effort. This does NOT mean sit ups, it means working your transverse abdominus which is the deepest layer of abdominal muscles (hence the "core")
Planks and push ups are good for this but go to http://www.about.com for more
core exercises. Also a good site for cycling info. Actually a pretty good site for almost everything.

Are you sure you don't need new brakes or a brake adjustment? I'm admittedly a speed weenie but I've never had to grip the brakes that hard.

Raising your stem will help. But you will lose some positioning advantages for fast riding downhill. Part of this is conditioning. When you are down in your drops you have to look up more aggressively and this will cause muscle strain if you are a new rider. I don't disagree with using a stem with a higher rise but you could also solve this problem with exercises and focusing on relaxing your shoulders while riding.

I really like the first 5 exercises on this site for this type of problem:

http://ehs.sc.edu/Ergonomics/Exercis...0Exercises.htm

Hope this helps.

Brakes are new and recently adjusted, hill is steep, curvy and brain refuses to allow more than 10mph during that mile descent (mind prefers 6 - 8), and arms are not strong yet. They're getting there!

(when discussing a real big hill today, I told DH we'd need two things if we do that climb. First, camping equipment, cuz it will take me a while to make that 16 mile climb, and after that, a car ride back down -- there's just NO way I could ride down that one!

This shoulder issue DOES seem to only be on "hill day," it's likely I'm noticing it more today than usual cuz I did double my usual hill, and I am still transitioning from upright comfort bike to road bike...
This last is why I'm more interested in looking for and correcting the issues in myself before "blaming" the bike! I KNOW I have "deficiencies!"

So, Wahine, thank you for the suggestions! I'm pretty sure that strength issues are things I can solve within myself the fastest! And, Zen, I do love that Plank thing -- even though it's a killer! It's good to know I'm headed in a good direction with that!

I told DH I need to go have the brakes shimmed one of these days, and I'll talk with my bike dude about the stem height too!

and yes, I'd love more suggestions for strengthening!

Karen in Boise

Kano
me too!
My most painful rides are on long hills where I have to brake a lot because of traffic. MAN that can hurt. I'm just not sure how much adjusting can help. (I'll let you know if i have the problem on my new bike that i haven't gotten yet)

ten mph IS slow though... try to gradually increase your speed.

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Originally Posted by mimitabby

Kano me too!
My most painful rides are on long hills where I have to brake a lot because of traffic. MAN that can hurt. I'm just not sure how much adjusting can help. (I'll let you know if i have the problem on my new bike that i haven't gotten yet)

ten mph IS slow though... try to gradually increase your speed.

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I know ten is slow downhill, Mimi -- the good news is I'm up from six! Downhill on the winding hills amuses me a bit when I think about it, cuz there's just NO way I let the bike go, but then, like, I get down this particular hill, and there's another downhill run right after it that's straight shot, and I fly down that stretch at 30 no problem! And thinking about that rationally, if I know full well that I could lose control at 12 going down the curving hill, and need to know I can stay upright, whatever, then what's to make it easier on the straight shot? I figure it's that you can see so much farther ahead on the straights!

Karen in Boise

I recently changed some things on my bike, resulting in a more aggressive position (new stem has no rise & there's a pretty big drop from seat to bars). For the first 2-3 weeks I was getting a soreness in my neck/shoulders and in my lower back. But as I've adjusted to the new position (and probably built a little more strength), the pain has gone away, even on long rides.

I also find that it's useful on longer rides to periodically check in to see how relaxed I am. I'll open up my hands and "play piano" on the drops, take a deep breath, and make sure I'm not tensing anywhere from my upper back/shoulders/arms down to my hands. I find that since I've been doing this, I'm more relaxed all the time and actually need to do it less.

Core strength really helps too -- if I'm starting to feel tired or tight, I'll get down really low in the drops, so my elbows are at a 90 deg. angle, and grasp the handlebar very lightly kind of high in the drop, so I'm actually NOT carrying a lot of weight with my arms/hands, but rather supporting it with my legs and core.

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Originally Posted by zencentury

You don't need a gym membership to build the muscles you need for riding. Your "core" is the base for your extremities, that should be your greatest strength training effort. This does NOT mean sit ups, it means working your transverse abdominus which is the deepest layer of abdominal muscles (hence the "core")
Planks and push ups are good for this but go to http://www.about.com for more
core exercises. Also a good site for cycling info. Actually a pretty good site for almost everything.

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Yoga and especially Pilates- great for core strength. Which is VERY important for any activity that requires balance- like riding a bike. I used to dance, and it really makes you feel like you can do just about anything when you have a solid core. Especially lower abs, since a woman's center of gravity is centered there. My core has weakened some in the past year or so (grad school), and I really feel a difference in just about everything I do.

And yoga is also good for your arms- I rock-climb, which can really crank your forearms. But yoga works your triceps/biceps- endurance as well as strength, and it really improved my climbing as I don't grip as much with my forearms. And triceps are hard (and often annoying) to train, but if you do yoga properly, it's a great workout for them without having to do those annoying tricep extensions with hand-weights, etc.

Karen, I wouldn't recommend changes to your bike fit without seeing you and your bike. While a shorter and/or higher stem might be appropriate, I would recommend having a bike fit before making that decision. A shorter/higher stem can also have a negative impact on your bike handling (especially descending) since it moves weight off the front of the bike.

My sense is that your discomfort is from riding in a new position. And, as anyone who rides a road bike knows, this position puts your body in a very static position that's not completely natural and doesn't silmulate much else that we do in life. Because of this, it takes time to build strength (core, along with arms, hands, shoulders, neck, etc) and to become comfortable.

Are you descending in your drops? You should be. Really try to focus on keeping your elbows soft/bent and your shoulders relaxed/down. Write yourself a little note for your stem if that will help you remember.

What type of brake levers do you have? Can you place at least one knuckle of your first two fingers around the lever while you're in the drops? If not, you might want to consider having the levers shimmed. This will bring them closer to you and make it easier to depress them.

I personally keep my brakes adjusted very soupy (ie soft). I can depress my brakes almost all the way to the bar before they fully activate. I recently switched to a new mechanic and he adjusted my brakes very tight/responsive! I hated it and it made my hands hurt!

Eventually, you want to strive to ride in the drops on your descents while spending less time touching the brakes. This will take time -- be patient -- however, once you can do this you can move your hands to a lower position on the drops which will be more comfortable for you.

You will build strength as you ride your bike. Try to stay relaxed and you'll have less discomfort.

It sounds like you don't like the switchbacky descents even though you're comfortable with the fast straight descents. That's natural for a newer rider. I recommend learning how to counter-steer (it's a cornering skill and it's been discussed at length elsewhere on the forum). You should use counter-steering to be stable on switchbacky descents.

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Originally Posted by velogirl

Karen, I wouldn't recommend changes to your bike fit without seeing you and your bike. ...

My sense is that your discomfort is from riding in a new position. ...

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This has been my feeling, Velo, since I have "problems" mostly when I'm doing downhill on this particular hill even -- I'm very comfortable on the bike otherwise! I've needed only very minor adjustments to the bike to get rid of the discomforts I started with, and didn't even notice this issue until I decided to do this hill twice instead of my usual once. (one change that cleared up several things at once was actually a new pair of gloves!)

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Originally Posted by velogirl

Are you descending in your drops? You should be. Really try to focus on keeping your elbows soft/bent and your shoulders relaxed/down. Write yourself a little note for your stem if that will help you remember.

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No WAY am I descending in the drops! I can work on focusing -- that will be like thinking "uncurl your toes, silly" the first few weekends we ski each year! But the drops for descents? Oh, I don't think I'm ready for THAT! (maybe I'll try on the straight-away one of these days...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by velogirl

What type of brake levers do you have? Can you place at least one knuckle of your first two fingers around the lever while you're in the drops? If not, you might want to consider having the levers shimmed. This will bring them closer to you and make it easier to depress them.

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They do need shimming. I figured that out the other night while playing in a new, empty area in our subdivision. They're Shimano 105's, and they work the shifting too. Last time my bike and I were in the shop, one of the guys suggested that we may need to do that. They've been encouraging me to get used to the new position before making too many changes to the bike.

You mentioned making the brakes "sensitive" instead of "soupy." I might like something somewhere in between there, and I think mine may be more on the "soupy" end of things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by velogirl

It sounds like you don't like the switchbacky descents even though you're comfortable with the fast straight descents. That's natural for a newer rider. I recommend learning how to counter-steer (it's a cornering skill and it's been discussed at length elsewhere on the forum). You should use counter-steering to be stable on switchbacky descents.

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You got it, girl! I want to see what's ahead of me, and know I can do it! It's really good to know that I'm "normal" in that, too!

I will go searching for the counter-steering stuff, read, experiment, and see if I can't find someone nearby in the real world who can help me out a bit with these techniques too. I figured a lot of my problem was my own -- body strength and my head. The reason I asked about strengthening my body off the bike was cuz I figured if there's something I can do that will make my body more apt to hold a "good" body position, I want to take advantage of that!


Thank you Velogirl, for sharing your wisdom and experience!

Karen in Boise

Liza and WurkitGurl -- Thanks to you ladies too! It's good to know of things I can work on, and that I'm not the only one who forgets to keep my body relaxed! It's also good to know that it will all get easier with time, too! (now if I could just go buy myself a can of patience...)

Karen in Boise

I'm with Velogirl too, I think that its your body getting used to the new demands.

I remember my hands used to ache after every ride, because at the start of leaving there is alot of downhill (600' to sealevel) and I used the brakes alot.
It took a while until my hands didn't ache so much. And that was merely because I was holding them so tight and didn't use that muscle-action anywhere else in my life.

Likewise when I got my TT bike, new position and my shoulders and neck ached. They still do when I haven't been on it for a few weeks.

Just suss that out before you alter your bike too much.

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Originally Posted by Kano

No WAY am I descending in the drops! I can work on focusing -- that will be like thinking "uncurl your toes, silly" the first few weekends we ski each year! But the drops for descents? Oh, I don't think I'm ready for THAT! (maybe I'll try on the straight-away one of these days...)

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This is one strong reaction against a piece of advice that's very important in terms of safety. The point of descending in the drops is not to go faster (at least not at your stage) but to give you better access to the brakes (more braking power) and to allow you to push yourself back on your saddle with more strength, AND to brace your arms more efficiently in case you need to stop suddenly. You will be much more stable and in MUCH better control of your bike. I cannot strongly enough join my voice to Velogirl's in suggesting you practice this very important skill.

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Originally Posted by Grog

The point of descending in the drops is not to go faster (at least not at your stage) but to give you better access to the brakes (more braking power) and to allow you to push yourself back on your saddle with more strength, AND to brace your arms more efficiently in case you need to stop suddenly. You will be much more stable and in MUCH better control of your bike. I cannot strongly enough join my voice to Velogirl's in suggesting you practice this very important skill.

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And adding my voice to theirs...

It may feel strange to begin with, but it gives you a much safer centre of gravity, you are less likely to get into an "out of control" situation.

Practice on less steep grades... and build up to the descents you are talking about.

It is so much safer. Yes, it is much faster - but only if you want it to be... I sit on the brakes alot still, but I always descend on the drops - (at the risk of repeating myself) it is safer for downhill, and for downhill cornering.

Have a go, relax and enjoy
:)

+1!

Practically the only time I do ride in my drops (outside of sprinting) is on downhills. As RoadRaven and Grog have both stated, this is a MUCH safter position for you than on your hoods trying to reach the brakes.

Give it a try!

SheFly

Okay ladies, I will work on this drops thing on the hills, but not until I get the brakes shimmed so that I can reach them better while in the drops! Right now, it's not the place to be if I want to get my hands on the brakes, I swear!

I agree, I did make a strong statement to say "no way" but it's the way I've been working, and am likely to continue at least part of the time for now. I know there's stuff to learn, but the "hoods position" is something I'm still adjusting to some over the comfort-beast upright position, remember, and it feels hugely scary on my hill! Grog, you talked about the reasoning behind descending in the drops, which Velogirl left out. Now I know that it's a safety feature and that I really do need to learn it, so I will practice drops on wee bitty hills and build up confidence, so that I can do it on bigger hills too! (after I get those shims, though, so I can get to the brakes while in the drops!)

I promise, I will!

Karen in Boise

Hmmm, I feel like my center of gravity is off when I'm in the drops. Of course 10 mph down a hill is FAST for me :D

For those who recently started using the drops instead of the brake hoods, was it a scary adjustment?

I'll equate riding on the hoods to driving an SUV, and riding in the drops to driving a zippy little sportscar. We all know that the center of gravity on an SUV is very high, so you have to slow down when turning or risk rolling the vehicle over. A sportscar, on the other hand, has a low center of gravity and just loves to zip around curves. When riding switchbacks and twisty descents, you really want to hug those curves like a little sportscar.

It definitely takes some time to get used to the position. My parents taught me this from the time I had a drop handlebar bike so it always been pretty natural for me, but it's one of the things we usually have to tell new racers all of the time - get in your drops, get in your drops, get in your drops! You should always descend in your drops as it is more stable, ideally you want to take corners in them too. Most people are afraid that they cannot reach the brakes when they first try the position. While some people really cannot and need to adjust the position of the levers on the bars or get shimmed out, a lot of people just need to get more comfortable doing it. Even with my tiny hands I don't have to have shims or short reach levers. I do usually keep my brakes a little loose so I can have my fingers around the levers without actually braking (this also keeps me from acccidentallly braking in the pack if I'm startled). I did find with my Fuji that the shop set it up with the handlebars tipped way down so that I was sliding down the drops and yes! I had a hard time staying in the drops, much less braking in them. I had to turn the bars so that the drops were much more level and move the levers up the bars a bit to be comfortable both in the drops and on the hoods.

For racers - races like crits - always in the drops! If you are in a tight pack in a road race, its a whole lot safer too - with your hands in your drops you are much less likely to lose control if bumped or to lock handlebars with another rider. Always in the drops for descents and sprints.

My 105s are double shimmed, and for me, it makes all the difference in feeling safe and secure in the drops descending. Before, descending in the drops was quite scary because I couldn't reach the brakes well enough. Now, a fairly short time later, I feel downright scared if I try to descend on the hoods.

I wonder if it scared DH properly?

He wanted to go to the post office tonight, on the bike rather than in the car. Had a movie to drop off (Netflix). What a piddly ride that is now that we're used to riding! But oh how he whined! First, he's getting over a cold. That in itself, well, it's good for a lot of fussing.

When we go on busy roads, he thinks it's better if he rides behind me, cuz then he's the one who gets hit if anyone gets hit, right? Like I should feel better about that? We could fight over who gets to ride in back, I tell you! (I feel better behind him, cuz he's one of those guys you'd rather follow than wonder what he's going to do next!) So, he makes me ride in front, but then he's whining cuz I'm going too fast or too slow all the time, or I'm out in the lane, or whatever. And he always does something goofy to get me ahead of him, and then complains if I follow him, instead of going the way he meant for us to go! On the other hand, if I don't follow him when he's not trying to loop around behind me...

(Husbands -- gotta love 'em!)

(shall I get to the point now?)

Well, immediately after we turn onto our main road down into town -- where the post office is -- we go down hill. It's a pretty good one, good for about 30mph easy! On the other hand, it's busy, and the bike lane vanishes at the bottom (so do the other three lanes for cars! it goes from five to two lanes with no shoulder in a hurry!) so you want to be a little bit careful, right?

I tried my drops! Now, I haven't had those brake levers shimmed yet, and I still should, but I tried it for the hill, and I liked it! Reaching the brakes isn't good, but once I had hold of the levers, and there's plenty of play there, I also experimented with those on the way down. This was a straight shot. I'll find a really easy curvy one soon, cuz that was fun!

I can't help but wonder if he was cruising along behind me wondering what the he!! is she up to now???? and wishing I'd settle down and ride "civilized."

So thank you ladies! Another thing learned!

And oh yeah: I got back up that hill too! No stopping! Soon, DH will wish I were stopping again -- his excuse to stop too!

(still icky to pedal in the drops -- I think it was Road Raven mentioned that belly issue? That's going to take a while to resolve!)

Karen in Boise

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Originally Posted by Kano

(still icky to pedal in the drops -- I think it was Road Raven mentioned that belly issue? That's going to take a while to resolve!)

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Yup - and belly is still there...but it gets smaller and tighter over time and it gets less in the way of my thighs

:p

I tried to go in my drops yesterday (though not downhill) and noticed that my hands are going toward the bottom instead of out where the brakes are. I don't know if that makes sense but the brakes are where the curve is and it's a very long curve so I tend to move to the bottom of the curve because that's where my hands end up. No brakes there! My bike was recently fit (though we didn't discuss riding in the drops because I think he thought that isn't what I wanted) so is it that? Or should the bar maybe be swapped?

Kano, you and I need to get together, as I think I can help you with the counter steering thing.