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I've considered going to law school off and on now for several years, but I usually talk myself out of it. I'm pretty sure that I would enjoy law school (if that's actually possible), but I'm not convinced that I would actually enjoy practicing law. It seems like it might be a boring day-to-day job... Are there any attorneys on here? Can you tell me about your typical job and what you like and dislike about being an attorney? Thanks for your insight!
I'm no attorney, but if you are worried about boredom, law school will not be your cup of tea. The first year of law school is filled with boring tedious reading
designed to weed out people without enough pluck. My nephew, who got a 4.0 all the way through college, was devastated by that first year.. he did manage to get his degree, but he was ready to give up several times that first year.
I'm no attorney either, but my best friend is a real estate/title lawyer. She enjoys it, but her temperament makes her well suited for it. She spends most of her 10-12 hour days reading contracts, case studies, negotiating settlements, etc. Very few of her cases go to trial. I would find a job like that as boring as heck, but she gets a real thrill out of reading real estate law (even on her free time!)
Hi Sheesh,
An attorney here. I've been an attorney for 27 years, having been a Registered Nurse for 10 yrs (still licensed as a nurse).
Law is like many other professions wherein people tend to specialize in specific areas. Many attorneys don't even practice law, but, instead use their law degrees in related fields. Law itself is so varied. What you see on TV is far from the reality. There is everything from civil law (plaintiff or defense), family law, criminal (prosecutor or defense), tax, probate, contracts, business, intellectual property, entertainment, etc. Many attorneys do not like courtroom work, and instead, are very good at research (preparing briefs, legal opinions, legislative analysis, etc.) There are both State and Federal jurisdictions and people tend to specialize in one or the other.
In my case, I specialize in insurance defense and own my own firm with 4 attorneys. These days I spend more of my time "running a business" and less time practicing law. I oversee and assign the files as they come into the office, and cover calendar appearances when we have calendar conflicts. We also handle Administrative Hearings and we end up doing quite a lot of pro bono work in that area.
It is true that law can be boring or tedious at times - dealing with deadlines and rules of court, etc. I think that is true in almost any profession.
Many people have an idea of what they want to de before they go to law school. By the time they are finished, they find they like another area of law. Most law schools have externship programs of some sort, or clerkships with judges wherein the students get exposed to various areas. Those programs often lead to job opportunities.
You might want to look around and see if there is a law firm willing to hire you and do some "on the job" training in a clerical capacity. That way you will get an idea of the "atmosphere' of a law office. Again, however, every law office is different depending on the type of practice. Keep an open mind. Even if you go to law school and don't actually practice law, the education will always serve you well.
Please feel free to PM me if you want.
Good Luck!!
Nina
Sheesh, I've been an attorney for going on 11 years now. I currently work as a staff attorney for a federal bankruptcy judge. I've had that job for 6 years. The reasons I love it? I work for a great boss in fairly stressfree environment. It plays to my strengths--writing, research and legal reasoning. My job allows me to live a balanced life in that I don't work long hours and rarely bring work, either literally or figuratively, I am respected and appreciated for what I do, feel pretty confident in my abilities, and have a fair amount of control over my work.
Prior to my current job, I was in private practice at what was at the time about a 60-person law firm. I was miserable there for the most part. My most immediate supervising attorney was a great guy to work for, but my actual boss, while a nice man, was controlling and anal retentive to the nth degree. Between him, other partners barking at me, demanding clients, billable hours, and firm politics, I wanted to jump from a tall building most days. I was seriously depressed, and they were the worst years of my life. While there, I did mostly creditors' rights and corporate bankruptcy work.
Litigation in particular isn't the exciting drama that tv would have you believe. A lot it, in fact, is rather tedious and laborious. Private practice, especially at big firms, is lucrative, but it comes at a tremendous price. My friends who are still at the firm routinely work 60-70 hours a week. That's not to say that you would be unhappy in that kind of environment. You just have to have the right personality for it. It wasn't for me, at least at that time or at that firm.
It's hard to generalize about the law and careers in the law. There is no one job or area of the law that will appeal to everyone. The trick is finding what works for you. When I was in law school, the emphasis was on getting a job at a law firm, the bigger the better. There are, however, so many other options out there. Being happy as a lawyer often depends on the choices you're ready and willing to make. So many factors--where you live, the sector and area of law in which you practice, the importance you put on income, the individuals you work for and with, etc., all influence job satisfaction. It's a question of finding what appeals to you personally and putting yourself in the best position to find the "right" job. For that reason, I encourage people to limit their debt--both during and after law school--so that they aren't tied to a particular job or job sector by the proverbial "golden handcuffs."
As your question suggests, law school bears little relation to practicing law, and I applaud you for asking yourself whether you would actually like to be an attorney because many people just focus on the law school part of the equation. If you do decide to go to law school, please let us know. I'm sure you'll get lots of advice about that too!
Kate
I am probably out of the norm because my practice actually does have a lot in common with law school. I do criminal appellate work, which means lots of research and writing with the occasional oral argument. I hated law school a lot, but I didn't find the reading to be tedious or boring. I found that part fairly fascinating -- it was my fellow students who made me miserable.
Since there are so many different types of law out there I think it is pretty hard to guess whether you will enjoy the profession, but in general I would say that these are the questions to ask yourself:
1. Are you a good writer? This is more important in my line than in many others, but law school and passing the bar require a lot of writing, and most types of law require writing, and if writing is a major struggle for you, you are probably going to be unhappy.
2. Are you bad at confrontation? I mean this both ways -- can you engage in confrontation calmly and rationally, making your point without flying off the handle? Shrinking violets don't do well in the law. If you have a panic attack at the thought of calling your bank to dispute a charge, don't bother with law school. By the same token, if you are always getting into arguments with store clerks and waitresses and bank tellers over minor things, do the profession a favor and stay out. (Man, I hate those people.)
3. Can you find joy in the process of working through a problem, even if you aren't ultimately successful? I have been doing this for almost fourteen years and a I know a lot of lawyers, and I think this is the secret to happiness. You like wrestling with the problem, you like strategizing, you like most of the daily bits of whatever field you go into: interacting with clients, preparing for trial, negotiating, researching odd areas of the law. Most areas of law don't have a lot of "winning" or "losing" (mine does, but it's all losing, all the time!) and a lot of young lawyers are sort of counting on that kind of gratification. It's mostly not going to be there.
As for the daily crap that everyone hates, oh yes, it's there. Billable hours are the bane of every lawyers life. I do so much admin work that sometimes I want to chuck it all and do something else. But you know what? Every job has drudgery. Take that part as a given.
I truly believe you have to have a calling to be an attorney. Not only is law school tough but the first 2 - 3 years of lawyering are a nightmare. Figure having no life and working 60 - 80 hours minimum a week. Many attorneys (me included) opt to do something else. I actually work for an insurance company not as an attorney but as an adjuster handling intellectual property claims. I make almost as much money but work way less hours.
There is all types of law - everything from corporate, real estate, tort, family law to environental, public health etc. Do you have a passion for something that law would help you do? If not, find something else to do.
BYW, I've never thought lawyering was boring. Cases can be and are very interesting but work can be very tedious!
I agree with Xeney's comments. To be a good lawyer, you have to be able to communciate, sometimes forcefully, and think well on your feet. You can't be easily intimidated, but you also have to intuitively know when to shut the heck up or eat humble pie. You have to be patient and pay attention to the details but wise enough to keep the big picture in mind. Unfortunatley, there are a lot of stupid attorneys out there, so it helps to be smart, meaning that you think in a logical, linear fashion and that you are committed to knowing the area of law in which you practice. I think it helps if love to learn, because the learning never stops (or at least it shouldn't).
But smart isn't everything. You also have to have people skills. The most successful lawyers I know have figured out how to be strong adversaries for their clients without making enemies in the process. Generally speaking, that means that you play fair, are firm but courteous, that you don't fight just to fight, and that you practice with integrity.
I think to be a happy lawyer, you have to strike the right balance between work and the other things in your life. Find a job that plays to your strengths and is consistent with what you want out of your life and career, while accepting that no one job is perfect. Try to take the work, but not yourself, too seriously.
I think you've all managed to confirm most of what I had already suspected. I am not afraid of confrontation, and enjoy learning and logic, which is why I've always thought that I would enjoy law school. But, the long hours with the emphasis on "billable hours" and tedious paperwork and research part doesn't excite me.
Yeah, I wish someone had told me about the long hours. I honestly had no idea. My dad was an investigator with a public defenders office, and those attorneys were always taking coffee breaks! They had no billable hours. (Budget cuts have made their lives a lot rougher than they were back then, too, so I am not in any way saying that PDs have it easy.) I like my job now, some of the time, but if I had known then what I know now, I'd have done something else with my life.
Nothing funnier than being in Court and having the Judge nail a young, inexperience or stupid attorney. I agree must be able to think quickly. Must have good debate skills. People skills are necessary for many attorney jobs but not all - the reason some attorneys go into research or appellate work as oppose to becoming a trial lawyer. I became an attorney because I was in fairly good with debate in High School and College. I have excellent bullsh*t skills - most useful in some cases, especially good with the job I have now.Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
I have met many an attorney who cannot write - it's sad but true. Some Complaints are so beautifully drafted as to be a work of art some complaint make no sense whatsoever. I've read pro per pieces that were easier to understand.
Again for anyone considering law as a professional also consider the job market in your state. In California the market is flooded. We turn out tons of new attorneys each year and many cannot find jobs or at least ones that pay anything (keep in mind the 80 work week).
A good attorney can make tons of money but they work hard, are learned and knowledgable, personable and in demand. In my field, entertainment, a young associate can make over $200K a year but they are the cream of the crop. Many attorneys make less than $100K a year even at a senior level.
I have to especially agree with indysteel, as I'm in that bad position in my career (see my rant over on the Interview thread about some of the stuff that has happened to me recently). I didn't really like law school, but figured that I had so much invested in it already I might as well finish. I did find that I liked environmental issues (note I don't say law) along the way, but there weren't (and still aren't) many jobs out there. I graduated, and then figured to pay the loans, I might as well work as a lawyer. I went to a small firm in a small town. I got some great experience from one of the partners and still count him as a friend. There was also a lot of crap that went on (it really puts some tv shows to shame). There was a young partner (associate when I got there) who decided to make my life a living he!!. I was working 60+ hours per week, and my next door neighbor hairstylist made more $$. He told me I *was* going to work 12 hours per day 7 days per week and that I was not getting a raise until I made partner (though I was paid much less than he was at that stage of his career, and I was bringing in more than 5x my salary), and I quit within a week. I don't regret that.
I took a little time off, but we moved and had financial pressure from trying to sell the house in the other town, so I started looking for jobs again. Now I work for a 60 person law firm that is getting ready to be 300+. I love the partner I do most of my work for. But I abhor the large firm environment. Billable hours $uck. There's no way around it. Take a sick day - gotta make it up. Need to do continuing legal education - gotta make that up too. And I do mostly creditor's rights work. It's a firm that is politically active, and on the complete opposite side of the table from where I am. Our billable hours just went up to 2000 per year (do the math, with vacations and holidays, it's a lot of hours when you add in admin work). And we only got a *very small* small pay raise to compensate. Suits are mandatory. Every day.
I do like litigation - and I've had some great moments in hearings and depositions. It's fun, in a way. BUT, I've decided it doesn't give back to me - it exhausts me. And there's never enough time to recharge. And I'm not passionate about what I do (I've also done construction work and plaintiff's securities arbitrations, which were *much* more fun). Most of the work I do is boring (lots of large doc reviews), even though the partner I work for is great about getting me involved in other stuff. And with the growth, things are getting worse. I'm looking for a way out. Everyone says there are lots of non-legal jobs out there - and I'm sure there are. However, my law school career services office will refer you to a book. They can be hard to find. And (from what I've seen), there aren't as many as you think there are. I'm currently looking for something else - who knows what! If all else fails, I've found a PhD program that I think would get me to exactly where I want to be. And yes, I think I'm glad I have a law degree when it's all said and done.
So...bottom line....think long and hard. I've talked a lot of people out of law school, and have tried to talk others out who went. I'm glad - they had thought through the decision before they went, and are happier for it. Spend time around lawyers. Spend time in court. Think about what kind of day you want (do you want to be at a desk all day). Think about what you want in terms of standard of living (yes, I am now well paid, but I'm not sure it's worth it). Other jobs have more bang for the buck. Heck, spend time in law school classes (most will let you sit in). The 2nd 2 years of law school, I did enjoy myself. I did not read anything, turned down a position on a journal, and worked on what mattered to me. Don't let law school (or the bar exam) stop you if you really want to be a lawyer (which brings up another point - you aren't very mobile as a lawyer, if you want to practice, because most states do not have reciprocity until you have a number of years experience, and some not even then).
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions. Sorry if this is too long winded! It's a subject near and dear to my heart right now....
Carrie Anne
Here goes (reading all these posts, one thing is for sure - we lawyers are never short of opinions and never shy about expressing them :D )-
I've been practicing law for 26 years - the year I realized that people born after I'd started practing law could legally drink, I had a cow. :eek: I am a health care lawyer: no not malpractice, I represent hospitals and other health care providers in their day-to-day operational issues. I spend most of my time drafting contracts (which I really enjoy), but can do everything from business deals to consent issues; I even dealt with a baby switch once. I went to court once, and that was enough litigation for me. I have worked in every legal setting: small 6 person boutique firm; equity partner in large, well known law firm; general counsel for a medicaid HMO, and now sole practitioner/contract lawyer with a (by my choice) part time practice. I also teach a masters level health law course at USC.
When people ask me about law school, my primary advice is - know what you're getting into. Law school has nothing to do with taking the bar exam, and neither law school or the bar exam have anything to do with practicing law. I hated law school with a passion, and refused to recommend it for years. However, I have mellowed - now I believe that so long as you go in understanding that law school is a game rigged to make you feel stupid, and that law school is just a means to getting to a career you want, then law school can be fine. I'd also note that my classmates who had been out in the "real world" for a few years before they started law school were much better equipped to deal with the emotional upheaval of law school.
As for practicing law, everyone's been pretty thorough on all the aspects. I'd just say that if you decide to be a lawyer, be thoughtful about what type of law you want to practice and in what setting. I've been a miserable, angry associate, I've been a stressed young partner, I've been an underfunded government lawyer, and now I'm a content contract lawyer who can take a Wednesday off to go to Disneyland without getting anyone's permission but my own. The truth is, I couldn't have the practice and freedom I have now if I hadn't worked my behind off for 20 years. Being a lawyer can be really painful, and it can be really satisfying.
However, don't even get me started about being a female in the profession . . .
Here's a funny website (there's a book too) that, irony and sarcasm aside, gives you taste of what it's like at a big firm:
http://www.anonymouslawfirm.com/page.php?text_id=News
Really? I can honestly say that this has never been an issue for me, except when I was in law school and again when I had just passed the bar ... at that point, I worked for lawyers who had female law clerks/associates cover for the secretaries during lunch, and sent the male law clerks/associates to make court appearances.Quote:
However, don't even get me started about being a female in the profession . . .
These days, it's such a non-issue that I don't even think about it. I have never felt a lack of respect from the courts (I only practice at the intermediate appellate and state supreme court level, though, where there may be a higher level of professionalism) or from other attorneys, although occasionally there is a jerk from the AG's office whom I suspect would be a jerk to anybody, regardless of gender.
Xeney,
Government always has had a higher proportion of women and I'm sure that's why you've seen fewer issues in that setting.
Even back in the ancient 80s, I had few problems as a young female attorney. However, as I got further in my career, around the time I started getting put in charge of things and competing with the boys for the perks of the job (partnership, etc), I started to see much more overt and covert discrimination. Compensation differences, expectation differences, etc. For myself, as well as for other female friends (who have way worse stories than I do). What makes it more difficult is that as gender equality became more publically expected, the gender inequities became more insidious and under the surface. Too often, the boys have the power and they don't want to share (whether they consciously realize it or not).
Some things have gotten better over time. Amazingly, I even see some law firms allowing women to have babies and still come back to be equity partners. There are many, many truly gender equal men out there (like our Mr. Silver); I just don't see it across the board and I'd hate to see young women lulled into a false sense of security that all the problems are gone and they'll always be treated equally on merit.
I am in my third year of law school, and I'm going to buck the trend and say - I really like law school! I wonder if law school has changed some - especially for women - since some of the posters were law students. It's still competitive, but most professors are much mellower than the Paper Chase haranguing that used to go on (so I hear). (I attend a medium-sized well-regarded state school). Also, I am the type who is good at school - always have been - and am fairly easygoing, so that helps. I don't mind being graded and compared to my peers. In a sick way, I like it - compared to the way you are evaluated in the real world, which in my previous work experience was totally mushy and secretive and involved office politics and all that. In school, you always know where you stand. Also, a graduate student has no boss but herself, a flexible schedule, and is surrounded by intelligent peers with similar goals. Mostly, in my previous jobs (which, to be fair, were entry-level), I was bored A LOT. In law school, and the tastes of law practice that I've had, I am constantly intellectually challenged. That's why I love it.
Before I came to law school, I worked at a legal nonprofit in NYC. I attended attorney-client meetings, and I really loved the way attorneys take people by the hand - usually people who are in some crisis situation - and make complicated things clearer. I felt it was akin to a physician's bedside manner. Attorneys take complex worries off peoples' shoulders, allowing them to get on with their lives and avert crisis. I want to do that, and that's why I came to law school.
Of course one thing I learned in law school is that many attorneys rarely or never interact with clients in the way I describe. As others have pointed out, there are lots of ways to be a lawyer. I did summer internships with some large corporate firms, and was offered over 6 figures to start out of law school. In those firms, I met some great lawyers and did intellectually challenging work, but I never even saw a client. I turned down that offer to work in a small firm in a very specialized practice - representing public school districts. It's sort of a mix of private practice and public interest, in that my clients will be public agencies. I absolutely love this area of the law, and it is definitely something new every day. I have also worked at our state Attorney General's office, representing public universities and other state agencies, which was also fascinating - and government jobs offer very predictable and do-able hours, for a lower but still reasonable salary. There are other specialties in which you learn to do one thing and get very good at it, and do it every day (generally transactional law). In others, it's something new every day - generally litigation - but as others have noted, in litigation you often trade predictability for more of a rollercoaster work schedule.
In short, if you can afford to go to law school, I think it opens many doors - not just the traditional paths. And I like the security of knowing I will always have my law degree to fall back on - while finding the perfect job is always a challenge, if I find myself in a situation where I need to make money, I will be able to do that. I highly recommend public law schools if you live near a good one - they are more connected to different types of jobs in the community, and while a "big name" is worth something, I'm not sure it's worth $100k in tuition.
Oh, I don't work for the government, I work for a small (20 attorneys) firm. When I worked for the government, the sexism was rampant and overt.
I graduated law school in 1995, after having become an RN in 1982. I went into law for more autonomy, and started my own practice after graduation.
I love the law. I love the analysis and the logic involved. I love the fact that it is never static, and there is generally no "black and white" answer. This last thing most find infinitely frustrating!
That being said, I was a litigator for 10 years. Being someone's paid pitbull got old. I grew tired of the constant conflict and the stress was incredible. I was good at it, but didn't enjoy it after awhile. I have recently returned to nursing full time, although I keep my law license active and do some work for my husband's business. Once my children are grown and out of the house, I may return to the practice of law. Who knows?
Best of luck to you!
Southside Sally
I have worked in a mid-sized real estate law firm for over 3 years now, and I can honestly say that it's pretty fun! I'm a legal assistant, but I do a lot of work for the lawyers in preparation. I don't think I want to be an attorney, but I usually enjoy my work. The attorneys work a lot of CRAZY hours. One of the partners is up at the firm EVERY day, no days off. Both of the partners we have are women, so that's pretty fun. I spoke with one of the partners and she told me that there is still a lot of sexism and that she has to sometimes put up with a lot from judges and other (male) attorneys. Sad but true. Good luck in your law school adventures!!!!
Once again I am amazed and humbled at the depth of talent and skill on this board! You ladies are fantastic!
And here I am, at 39, trying to take my first ever correspondence course, having never been to university, and I'm struggling with the most introductory Business Law course! I can't imagine making it through law school!!
Hugs and butterflies,
~T~
I have been practicing law for 21 years and I teach research and writing full time at a law school. I teach mostly in the night program so most of my students are not fresh out of college - but I have also taught in the regular program-I have seen many people drop out because law school is not what they thought it would be. IF possible - can you go sit in on some first year classes (at our school we often have visitors). I clerked for a federal judge (great job), worked in private civil firm (horrible - billable hours, stupid cases, I thought civil discovery/litigation was the most boring thing on the planet, annoying clients, etc) was an appellate public defender (great job for me - reading and writing). If you have specific questions - feel free to pm me.
Hello, just noticed this thread and decided to write. when the thread was started I was preparing for Trial Team competition (yep...that really exists!).
I changed careers so, I am an older student. I was a therapist before specializing in treating folks with addiction and trauma issues.
I really enjoy law school! I plan on practicing in SE NE when I graduate. It has been intellectually stimulating, very difficult at times (not so much the course load as the time it takes to understand what I am reading). It has also been tough on my family and my cycling :) but worth it. I have found that my "people skills" have been put to good use. I do plan on going into litigation--as a criminal attorney. The school I attended offered a prosecutor's clinic, from that--I was in arraignments 1x per week arguing bail PLUS I had a Motion to Suppress and a trial. It was a ton of work but--it is true: being able to think on one's feet and arguing are key.
The actual attorneys on this board have given you a wealth of info. Take mine for what it is worth: a third year law student w/minimal "real life" lawyering experience.
With four weeks left of classes before I graduate...the bottom line: law school has been challenging, frustrating, fun...I don't think I'll be saying the same thing about the bar exam.:)