The Safety Zone

I didn't know what to call this thread, so oh well.

Wearing my Jenny Ewing t-shirt today raised an issue that has come up quite a bit since I've been riding -- my safety. Or rather, my husband's concerns for my safety.

It boils down to this. He thinks the only place I'm "safe" is riding loops in the neighborhood, or if I go to a bike trail, riding with someone else (preferably him).

The bike route through our town goes past apartments that he feels are dangerous (because the cops get called there fairly frequently) so he doesn't think I should be riding in that direction. The biking/walking trail that is in riding distance has areas that are very dense with trees and it's easy to imagine somebody up to no good lurking, waiting for somebody to pounce on. I stopped walking there some time ago because it made me uneasy -- but lots of people still do. When we asked at the LBS if it was "safe" we were told "No!" but it turns out that they meant there was too much foot traffic and unpredictable behaviour from kids and dogs and such, so it's a pain for cyclists. When I asked about the other kind of "safe" they were kind of, "eh, well, I don't like my wife riding there alone but she does it anyway."

But wait. It gets worse.

So, I sometimes will ride to the shopping center (1/2 mile away) and even THAT freaks him out. Even though the parking lot is huge and it's easy to ride across a rear open area that gives great visibility to any cars, he still thinks it's dangerous to ride across there because I'll get hit by an idiot cutting across the parking lot too fast.

Let's see ... what other stuff is not safe? Well, probably anything I can think of that isn't riding in the nabe, doing loops. Ahem.

So please tell me I'm not the only one with a guy who is freaky about everything (and yes this is in character for him -- he's one of these guys who isn't comfortable unless he's around to make sure everything is "safe" and that means he'd be much happier flying if he could sit in the cockpit and watch what the pilots were doing -- when he wasn't hanging out the window figuring out which river/lake/city we're flying over, or checking out the tiny icebergs bobbing in the ocean.)

Of course, chasing tornados isn't dangerous at ALL, because HE knows what he's doing. LOL

Does anybody else deal with these kinds of issues? I pretty much do what I want to anyway, but sometimes I do find myself feeling uneasily like maybe I'm taking risks just to prove I can. (Yeah, I'm like that.)

My hubby is not quite that bad, but I did have to get a cell phone and I can never ever tell him how fast I have gone...like 43 mph down a hill...freaks him out way too much. He does prefer it when I ride with someone and he said he thought when I got my bike I would be riding on the bike trails! But I live in the country and there are just soo many other places to ride!

Well, I think as HE rides more he'll get more comfortable with the idea of my riding outside of his comfort zone. As it stands, I'm the one cycling most of the time and I'm always alone. He joins in on the weekends when he can, and really enjoys it, but we've had so many "family emergencies" recently he hasn't had the opportunities to ride at all.

And of course being in Dallas, the traffic is horrendous. It's not the most bike-friendly place in the world, sigh.

One thing I figured out in time though -- I'm not getting the GPS that the guy at REI recommended, that lets you go back and check on your computer and see the route/s you've taken. I'm not leaving evidence behind, heh.

Pooks, Jeremy pretty much never worries about me -- he thinks I am a big stupid fraidy cat, basically -- but he does worry about me on the bike. I am planning to ride to the store and to run some errands today while he is out on a long ride, and he thought that was a bad idea because he'd be out on the bike and wouldn't be able to come help me if I needed it. (I think that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, and I am going to the store.)

He also does not think I should ride on the trail alone although other women do it. I tend to agree with him there, because he has had someone try to mug him on his bike, and the police just did this really dumb thing where they put up vehicle barriers on either side of the bike/pedestrian bridge that is the site where homeless people are the most aggressive (it's where someone tried to mug Jeremy). The barriers are to keep cars off, but they leave only enough room for one bike at a time to go through, and they make a great hiding spot for someone with bad intentions, and they leave you with no escape route if someone were to jump you there. It is the dumbest thing I've ever seen and it makes me feel very unsafe. I have never seen a car on that bridge but I have seen people walking around carrying hammers and crowbars, stepping in front of bikes, and letting their off-leash pitbulls interfere with bikes.

Anyway. My point is that he is far more fearful about me on a bike than he about me on foot -- he thinks I am silly to worry about walking home from work in the dark, for instance. I don't know what it's about, maybe it's because he has been hit by a car when he was doing nothing wrong and following all the best safety advice. But the bottom line is, he is not the boss of me, and at some point I make my own (occasionally dumb) decisions.

My husband is a bit of a worry wart but I just remind him that he is in no position to talk. He is a pilot both fixed wing and helo and rides a motorbike. He has also in the past tried rock climbing and sky diving. When we start discussing that he quickly says ok but you will be careful wont you.:D

Both my DH and my neighbor's DH are like yours in this matter, Pooks. But Ms. Neighbor and I are like the LBS guy's wife--we do it anyway--ride our bikes on the bike trail, ride on the road, etc. Because we have a death wish? Obviously not. But because we know that life is full of risks that we take every day--I mean, judging by the motor vehicle fatality stats, I'm surprised anyone ever gets in a car at all!

And my dh is no paragon of safety himself. But we're both adults and, within reason, decide for ourselves what individual risks we're willing to take. No chasing tornadoes, though.:eek:

I think we're all on the same page about making our choices and living with them. I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one who has to buck the system sometimes to do so.

I tend to be rather optimistic/oblivious/assume everybody is my friend in general, which drives him crazy. It should also be a reminder to me that if I do feel uneasy, I should by-God pay attention and steer clear. I often talk myself out of that.

Of course, I haven't had to deal with people carrying hammers and crowbars. Yikes.

Xeney, have you contacted the police about their stupidity? A councilperson, or something?

Pooks,

Is there somewhere nearby that is considered "safe" for cyclists that you could drive your bike to and ride there? I know there are usually certain streets that are bad and ones that are good for cyclists. Maybe you just live in a bad cycling area and need to ride elsewhere? Or find one safe route that you can ride to get to the better area?

It's pretty typical around here for people to drive to their cycling destination just so they can ride on good roads with wide shoulders or decent hills.

You could also carry mace or Halt! in case someone bugs you. I've never been threatened by a pedestrian, but I've heard from people who have, and it's usually teenagers.

I think being smart and aware is your best defense. And I fear cars way more than I fear other people on the path, but that doesn't stop me from riding on the road, because I have a right to be there, too.

Of course, when I leave the house, BF says "bye" and never asks where I'm going or how long I'll be gone. I wish I could trade you for a little protectiveness!

And it's true, you're much more at risk for injury by getting into a car...

Kate

It's nice that your SOs are concerned, but aren't you all adults? Can't you be trusted to make your own intelligent decisions?

Do they worry when you drive your car to the store? I don't have any statistics at hand, but I would hazard a guess that you are more likely to get car-jacked than bike-jacked. Are you allowed to leave your neighborhood when you are not on your bike?

I live in an area with lots of cyclists, but it is a bit "countryfied" at points. I never worry about my safety. Sure bad things happen everywhere, but i really don't think about it. If i felt my safety was compromised, i wouldn't ride in that place. My husband never tells me where i should or shouldn't ride. He asks, of course, but I never go anyplace that would be considered dangerous. I do avoid a few what i consider to be dangerous or really scary traffic situations, which my husband doesn't care about (he is a fearless rider).
I don't, however, mountain bike alone, with one exception. There's a trail by my house that's about 5 miles round trip, with other little extensions. It's not too challenging so i will do an out and back mtb ride there. I figure if there's a problem, I can walk back to my car. I went once at another place, that has a lot of trails and i felt creepy being there alone, even though I have been there several times with my husband. Plus, I got lost and was freaked out. So, do whatever your comfort level dictates.

Pooks - I'm just wondering how your hubby feels if you go shopping by yourself, say in a car and not on a bike, or if you go out of town without him or if you go out with the girls for drinks. Does he express the same kind of "worry" in these instances or is it just bike related?

I've said it be here on TE but here it is again for those of you who missed it
The only response to this is to say:
"Quick! Get the GPS! I think we've been beamed over to Teheran"
or "Did I see a Taliban flag waving over the Post Office?"
or "My hair is covered by my helmet. What more do you want?"

Like Southern Belle said.

I personally cannot believe any man would be *that* worried; but I will not say any more than that about the subject.

It just doesn't seem right that he should be pushing HIS fears off onto YOU. It sounds like his fears are starting to make you fearful. That's just not right! :mad:

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Originally Posted by MDHillSlug

It just doesn't seem right that he should be pushing HIS fears off onto YOU. It sounds like his fears are starting to make you fearful. That's just not right! :mad:

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That's a really interesting thought. I hadn't really thought of it like that before.
My DH worries about my commuting. Generally, he's not too afraid of my other riding, because we generally do it together. When I'm out riding solo, however, I let him know my route - we have names for all our standard routes, so if I say "I'm doing the P", he knows exactly where I"ll be. I also carry a cell phone and (on my commutes) call in to check in to let him know I've arrived safe and sound. I do that even tho' about half of my commutes are with a riding partner.
It's a small concession I make to ease his mind and to keep me from losing mine!

I have pepper spray strapped on my bike right where I can reach it quickly. It's for aggressive dogs OR people. (it has a flip top that makes it fairly impossible to aim it at yourself by the way) I do take it with me if I go into a store so kids can't get near it. Sure, somebody or some dog might be able to jump me faster than I could get it going, but it does give me a small sense of security if I see the dog coming or if someone starts harassing or following me. I also try to always keep some buffer/safety space around me when I ride. And of course I tell my DH what route I plan to ride.

Oddly, my DH is the opposite. Never seems the least bit concerned for my safety. Sometimes it puts me into a snit and I think I must be awfully replaceable - but that's not true, I know he loves me VERY much - so much, that he doesn't LET himself ever think that something could go wrong. He just lives in a fanstasy world in which I am immortal and unbreakable.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by latelatebloomer

Oddly, my DH is the opposite. Never seems the least bit concerned for my safety. Sometimes it puts me into a snit and I think I must be awfully replaceable - but that's not true, I know he loves me VERY much - so much, that he doesn't LET himself ever think that something could go wrong. He just lives in a fanstasy world in which I am immortal and unbreakable.:rolleyes:

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Yeah, we kinda did too, until I had my accident and fractured my pelvis, had to have surgery, etc etc....now DH is definitely more careful with me. And I no longer ride alone.

Emily

The first few days Thom commuted on his motorcycle I wanted him to e mail me when he got to work. If it's really windy I e mail him just to get a reply. I think it's normal to have some concern for the ones you love.

However, that concern should not keep you from living life fully.

V.

Well, yeah, he's probably more of a worrier than the average person but it's the vulnerability of a woman alone that bothers him about the cycling. He obviously wouldn't worry about me driving places -- I'm in a car and less likely to get attacked, and more protected if I'm in a wreck.

While he's concerned about traffic and such, his real issue is a woman walking or running or cycling alone. It's not an unreasonable concern but he takes it a bit to extremes. And the Jennifer Ewing situation (and tshirt) just kind of brought the discussion to the fore again.

ETA: He won't buy a small car for the similar reasons. More likely to get crunched/killed by collision with an SUV, tricked out truck, etc. He just tends to err on the side of caution in general.

Right now my DH worries if I'm out riding around 6:30pm - 7:30pm because of the extreme sun position. We live facing towards the west and at those times in the evenings the sun is at eye level. I'm aware of it, and if I'm out then, I try to stay off the main roads simply because it's hard enough to see cars in that glare not to mention cyclists and runners/walkers.

Still, I'm trying to squeeze in as much riding as possible before the weather changes. (shrug) We all work with what we have and what we can deal with, right?

Pooks -- my hubby seems more concerned about motorized traffic getting me than anything else. I figured a small motor cycle, or one of those scooter things would be a good idea when gas went up, but oh no! Those are just as bad as riding your bike to work would be! You stay in your Durango...

When we're out together, he ALWAYS makes me ride in front when we're on busy roads with minimal shoulder areas and no bike path. It's the only time he doesn't insist on being in front!

I'm not sure what the advantage in him being the first of us hit would be? He's always close enough that the driver couldn't avoid taking us both out, y'know? If the car didn't get me to, flying hubby surely would! I'm guessing that somewhere in the deep recesses of his brain, there's the memory of when he was a little guy, and got hit while riding his bike...

Karen in Boise

Please forgive this irrelevant tangent here but KANO remined me of this with her post:

HOLY COW!!! Gas prices where I am have dropped to $1.97!!!!!!! H*ll must be pretty chilly about now!!

Ok - back to the serious stuff......

Here in H*ll fuel prices are at least 3 times what you see anywhere Stateside! Luckily we're having a warm Fall so far. When it starts freezing over here, staying warm is gonna get expensive!

Now let's go back on topic. One of the reasons I stayed here in Norway after my year as an exchange student was that, while murders do occur, they are not considered par for the course here. And it IS considered normal for women and kids to be outdoors, on their own or in groups not guarded by adult males, at pretty much any hour of the day and day of the year (well, aside from kids after their bedtime). I think over the years I've lived here, there have been about a handful of random murders of women outdoors, and each time the dominant response is that it must not be tolerated, that women must have the right to enjoy the world freely and safely. That doesn't mean that we are entirely safe. Obviously. These murders did happen. But it does help me feel safer knowing that the bulk of my fellow citizens acknowledges my right to be out there. The murderers, whether caught or still hunted, have at least been given the message that the public does not offer them any excuse. It was their fault and theirs alone, not the women's fault for being "available".

Pooks - my husband is an ex-cop & he isn't worried as long as I don't venture into bad areas. But, cops tend to think they're not vulnerable to any bad element. My ex-husband (alcoholic) wanted me to carry my .357 pistol. Wouldn't I be a sight with a water bottle carrier and a pistol strapped to my frame?

I think V was right. He needs to release the chains & let you fly. Have you tried really talking to him about how his attitude affects you?

Oh, there aren't any chains. We've been married WAY too long for him to expect me to actually listen to him. Ahem.

Is there any evidence that women cyclists are being attacked/killed at a higher rate than anyone else in your area?

Alot of things depend upon which state you reside and the crime statistics in the area which you ride and your level of comfort

I have had my share of being run off the road, running into a rapist/fire starter while mt bikeing & road bikeing ect.

When I lived in the south west and road on rural roads, my female rideing partner had no qualms over packing heat in her handlebar bag.

I carry mace and a cell phone in my handlebar map bag when riding solo in the metro west Boston area, but the cell phone does not always work. I like to ride with 1 other person, but sometimes it is not possible. Carrying a concealed wepon is not always an option

Some say one needs to have an "presence of confidence" which deters wierds, other say follow your six sense. There is not easy answer to your question, you have to pick the best solution for you.

My 2 cents....

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Originally Posted by donnambr

Is there any evidence that women cyclists are being attacked/killed at a higher rate than anyone else in your area?

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Not that I know of, but he wouldn't want me to be walking or running through these areas, either.

And as far as murder in general, Dallas has the highest murder rate in the nation so while I don't think that really has any impact on me personally, it's not as if we live in a place where nobody ever worries about it. Twice this past week older men were approached as they were working in their garages, beaten and robbed. One died; the other may have now, I'm not sure. And these are just garden-variety middle class neighborhoods, not "dangerous" areas.

wow. all of you are truly blessed. althought it might seem annoying sometimes to have someone on your case about your safety...you truly are very very lucky to have another human being be concerned about your well-being. i've never ridden with anyone else. all my friends moved to different parts of the country, and i am completely alone. been single for several years (not by choice). nobody ever even knows when i'm out riding, let alone know where i'm going or how long i'll be gone. if i dont do things alone, i would never do ANYTHING. this is a completely miserable existence but is necessary because...for every happy person there's gotta be a sad one! anyway...i just want to tell you ladies how LUCKY and BLESSED and LOVED you all are for having someone be concerned for you. i barely remember what that was like. i am sooooo jealous.

...remember there are other people out there who have no one in the world for them...not even a friend to tell their day to...always smile at passers-by because that just might be one of them...

I am truly shocked at reading how big a concern women's safety is for, appearantly, so many American women and their partners of all part of the country. It is not the first time I notice it on this board but now reading it all together really comes as a sad revelation.

I don't know if it's the North (like Duck on Wheels who's in Norway) but to me it's clear that women have every right to be in the outdoors, doing stuff, not being 'guarded' by men and not being more than reasonably careful about themselves. My partner, who's a SERIOUS worry wart, would be worried that I crashed if I was late for dinner, but certainly not that I was attacked. I will find it a bit creepy running the trails by myself, but mostly because I fear owl attacks (frequent in this season).

I hope you women do not only do individual things like be careful and carry mace and tell your partner/friends where are going. The amount of fear I read about seems totally unacceptable to me, and calls to some collective action. Women must get together, be bold and refuse to be scared by the prospect of violent men waiting to pounce on them. I have often read of 'Take back the night' walks. Maybe a 'Take back the trails' is required?

I think the question arises whether the fear of some of the posters or their SOs is reasonable. There are women on this board who will not ride by themselves. I don't think this is particularly healthy, sound or justifiable. You make careful decisions on where and when to ride. But there are no guarantees and I'm only willing to restrict myself so much.

Opinions?

If I only waited to ride with my husband, I'd only ride on weekends. I'm pretty careful about where I ride. I'm more concerned about traffic than nuts who may want to hurt me.

V.

My DH's level of concern is at a comfortable level for me. We have been together long enough that I think he has gotten it through his head that I am going to do what I want no matter how much he badgers me. If he is home before I leave for a ride, he just asks which direction I'm headed so he will know where to search if I don't come back. :eek:

I think what we all need to think about is what can we do to make ourselves less of a target. I know that I WILL NOT let the rapist or murderer win -- they won't scare me into staying in my house. I am going to go about my life as a confident, independent woman. I know there are risks involved, but I will arm myself with whatever information/strengths I think are necessary to deal with those.

I try to vary my routes. Becoming too predictable in your routine is a good way to become a target. I have a 'south route,' an east route,' and a 'north route' that I take when I leave my house. I try not to do the same one two days in a row and not follow the same pattern every time. So if a guy is watching me on road X, he may see me every third day or every fifth day. He just never knows when I will show up.

I also always scan my surroundings. Don't stare at the road in front of you and block out everything else that is going on around you. Is there a pick-up, car, or work truck on the side of the road? What is he doing? I try to conserve my energy as I approach and then veer way into the lane to go around him (way more than a door's width) and go into a sprint as I pass just in case this guy is lying in wait for me.

If you do pass someone else on the road, make sure you make eye contact with them. That let's them know you are a very observant person and are aware of your surroundings. If they think you might be able to pick them out of a line-up, they might move on.

I don't have mace on my bike. I figure I probably won't have time to use it if I need it. But I do carry my cell phone on my body. So hopefully if I have an accident and get thrown from my bike, my phone will go wherever I go and I can call for help.

I can't imagine letting fear keep me from getting outside and doing the things I love. I'm probably on the extreme end of the fear spectrum, in that I just don't worry about much when I'm out having fun. I found out that my family calls me Mr. Magoo because they think I'm just going around oblivious to all this bad stuff that's happening around me. But really, if we let fear rule our lives, we'd never leave the house!

I've had the good fortune of being able to do lots of things that I'd never have experienced if I let fear get the better of me-- motorcycle riding, rock climbing, mountaineering, kayaking, camping alone, skating across frozen lakes-- and all of these wonderful experiences make me who I am.

I've actually had many people tell me that I'm brave because I cut my hair short! Come one people, our lives are meant to be spent, not saved.

"We are afraid of truth, afraid of fortune, afraid of death, and afraid of each other." - Emerson

I am like Veronica - if I only rode with my husband then I could only ride 1-2 times a week. During the week I always ride alone - the only thing I worry about are the crazy drivers hitting me

When I ride along the river I go for miles without seeing anybody - sometimes it's eerie but I always have an emergency plan thought out just in case - but it's not something I dwell on.

My husband doesn't worry about where I ride - he's only ever expressed concern about 1 area along the river where he saw gang graffiti - and I wouldn't ride up there anyway - it's a really nasty ride around a steel mill - horrible stuff - blech!

I think there are a couple of issues here. What one person sees as dangerous, another person might not. So we all have our comfort zones.

I know the US is dangerous compared to other industrialized nations, and I know that Dallas is dangerous -- theoretically. But I've been in some rough areas of Dallas (driving) without ever feeling nervous. Once I asked a couple of guys for directions in a location that probably should have given me pause -- but they looked decent and friendly and I just went with my gut instinct, smiled, asked, got directions, thanked them profusely and drove on. I know LOTS of people -- men and women -- who wouldn't drive in those areas. Sometimes, it's people who are newer to Dallas and didn't grow up here, so the areas are just "names" and dangerous-sounding ones, at that.

So for me, even though I hear and read about murders, rapes and such, they rarely make me uneasy because they're far away from me, or whatever.

Yet I knew a woman some years ago who moved here from Canada and lived in TERROR for a year or longer, because A) she "knew" Texas was dangerous and B) she watched the news and there was so much more violent crime reported than where she was from.

I tend to be Mr. Magoo, myself -- though I have worked hard to establish some of the risk-avoiding behaviours midgetcycler listed. The fact that my husband is more of a worrier than I am is simply a difference in his nature. The fact that my sometimes-Pollyanna attitudes drive him crazy from time to time is unavoidable. It doesn't make him wrong. It doesn't make him a control freak. He just worries more. And it doesn't mean I have to "obey," but I do have to avoid another habit of mine -- talking myself out of believing a situation is dangerous.

I have been known to see somebody who looks skeevy on the side of the road while I'm driving and pulling to a stop, noticing my door is unlocked, and not locking the door because surely the guy can't help it if he looks skeevey and I don't want to hurt his feelings to acting like he's a criminal and locking my door.... I mean, really!

So I'm working on being common sense oriented, considering my husband's feelings but not obsessing over them, and over all -- enjoying my bike.

A couple of times in the past year or two there have been rapes on or near the White Rock Lake bike trail -- the most popular place in Dallas for running, cycling, walking, etc. Thousands and thousands of people use it without issue -- but let's face it, if somebody is looking for an easy target, that's a pretty good place to stalk. At least one woman was murdered there a couple of years ago, as I recall.

Yet it doesn't stop women from running, cycling, walking alone.

Do we do it despite our concerns? I'm sure.

The real concerns should be over locking up the bastids that are doing it, and KEEPING them there. Most of the events I've read about (including the one where the woman was murdered on the bike trail in Dallas) have been repeat offenders.

Sorry for the long babbling post.