Azfiddle, I'm glad it was an affirmative experience for you and presumably, for others.
I hope the coming days bring peace and healing for your community and those affected by this tragedy.
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Azfiddle, I'm glad it was an affirmative experience for you and presumably, for others.
I hope the coming days bring peace and healing for your community and those affected by this tragedy.
As an outsider, i'm going to probably be thwacked for this but....
I have to say...isn't it the "we must have a gun because it's in the consititution" type culture in the US that's to blame?
While I personally am strongly against private gun ownership, I don't think one can put the blame on a single element.
I like Knot's take on it - we all bear responsibility for the world we are living in, by our actions or by our passivity. We're all both the good guys and the bad guys.
My take...
Loughner used his second amendment right exactly as responsibly as a lot of people have been using their first amendment rights.
Both are important political rights. Both have the potential to do great harm.
I could go on about the lack of civic education and what I think has CAUSED the irresponsibility, but I'll stop there. I too agree with Knott.
Though my first response to the shooting, like many others, was to attribute a political motivation to the shooter... both information and reflection have caused me to focus on working to for positive change.
Gabrielle Giffords' husband has suggested donations to the Red Cross or Community Food bank as a way of expressing your support or feelings.
Wow. That's excellent. I'm going to be quoting you today.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
azfiddle, thanks so much for sharing the bike vigil link. What a moving experience that must have been. Even second hand, I got a little teary.
I'm amazed that the young man who saved Giffords' life is only 20 years old. Has he been trained in emergency medicine, or was all of that just instinctive? He ran TOWARD gunfire. Who's going to do that? I'm pretty sure I would have been diving behind the nearest column or car.
Roxy
More on her progress, for those who haven't seen it.
Have your tissues ready.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...an-schultz-abo
Channlluv, he has some emergency response training. In interviews he talked about how he stayed with Giffords until the paramedics arrived and then moved out of the way to let them do their jobs. But, he would not leave her alone and stayed with her, talking to her and she squeezing his hand in response.
Hopefully you'll get to see some of his interviews with the media. Normally I'm not a big fan of this stuff but this young 20 year old is articulate and thoughtful. If I didn't know how young he is, I would have sworn this was a mature and experienced man.
And he just started his internship with Giffords 5 days before Saturday. Does Giffords know how to pick them or what?!
This article has been on my mind very much these last few days. It's a very simple profile of those who lost their lives in this senseless attack. My thoughts remain with the families and communities affected.
Thanks for the warning :cool: Very moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
I am profoundly moved that the National 9/11 Flag Quilt was at Christina Green's funeral. As one commentator said, she was born on one day of national mourning and died on another. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/01/13...morial/?hpt=C2
I am also deeply grateful that so many people organized to help protect the little girl's funeral from the Baptists who publicized their plans to protest and demonstrate in front of it. And grateful to Ms. Brewer, who passed emergency legislation to protect the funerals of the other victims from the Baptists.
As a gun owner, (and yes I own a 9mm and 20 and 30 round magazines), I would say no. Please remember, that Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with fertilizer. What a killer uses is just a tool. The user determines purpose, good or bad. What it looks like here is a case of an adult (he is 22) deciding not to get mental medical aid, not to take meds, but instead to take illegal drugs. He then reads some info about the evil of our monetary society, and blends it in his ill mind with his anti-Semitic delusions. He gets kicked out of community college as they fear he is a danger, but it does not appear they followed it up with the authorities as there was no record of this when he went to buy a gun last November as it did not show up on his NICS background check. He continues to take drugs and not see a doctor. Finally, he pops. That anyone would blame the gun is just missing what is going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycanuck
Guns are used far more often in the U.S. to prevent crime than cause it. I have had to grab a gun in defense once, when several people dressed in black tried to come up the side of the house and get into my back yard at 1am. Thankfully, they saw it and gave some lame-o excuse and beat it quick.
Our neighbor to the south, Mexico, is dealing with drug lords running amok and the death toll there last year was 15,273 (not including crimes of passion). This is higher than the war in Afghanistan in the same time period. The citizens don't have the right to arms, and are dying like cattle; no ability to defend themselves. The drug cartels have lots of guns; they don't care about silly laws that say they can't have them. Here in the U.S. we can choose to defend ourselves. We have 3 times the population, and the right to arms, but our death toll annually is about 17,000 by comparison. I say we don't have Mexico's problem partially due to our law abiding gun owners.
Sorry for the long ramble, I'm off my soapbox now.
What happened is appalling. My heart goes out to all who are affected by this horrible tragedy. It's our mental health support that failed on several levels, but it's not going to be easy to fix. As an adult, he could refuse treatment and incarceration in an institution as he had not been found guilty of a crime before his rampage. So how does one balance our freedom against forcing someone into treatment against their will?
I'd honestly be interested in seeing facts or documentation to support this statement.Quote:
Guns are used far more often in the U.S. to prevent crime than cause it.
ummmm I'm opening myself up to a lot of flaming here but that is not true...... owning a gun makes you 3 times more likely than a non gun owner to die from gun violence...Quote:
Originally Posted by tzvia
Guns are actually pretty rarely used for self defense. Firearms are actually only used for self defense in .2% of crimes and that isn't necessarily *successfully*... Meanwhile 66% of homicides and 8% of violent rapes involve firearms. If you are determined to use a gun to prevent a crime you have to be mentally and physically prepared to kill another human being.
I'll admit - I am a ardently for gun control and there will never be one in my house.
I have a healthy respect for aka fear of guns, would never have one in my home, nor knowingly be in a home with a gun. And yet I agree with your right to arm bears :rolleyes: but I also feel that right ends where my right to be safe begins. It's complex and hard to balance too.
I train in Aikido, I'm a nidan. I've had to "use it" a few times. Once in an attempted rape, got out of the chokehold, pinned him, held him down till help arrived, another time another stranger threw a football block at me to drill my head into the pavement, I did a back roll and came up in a fighting stance. This was not what he expected to happen. He ran away yelling "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm ....", then on a night train a guy robbed our compartment, found him on the train, put the dude in a chokehold, retrieved our luggage, threw him off the (very slowly moving at the time) train.
It's also come in handy taking a fall off the bike. :p
I never ever ever ever ever want to "use it" again. Aikido is something I will always do although I'm taking a break right now. If tomorrow I wake to a world with no need for self defense I'll still want to train. I do it for the love of the art, and because every so often I get a technique right. ;) It's a joy.
I'm sure there may be gun owners who feel the same about marksmanship, skill, expertise.
But I entirely agree with this:
We have failed as a country with mental health. We have to remove the stigma of needing, seeking, using, wanting care. If you knew someone needed care for a medical condition you would not hesitate to recommend they see a doctor. The same should be true of mental health. I'm not blaming the school in any way but instead of "go away till you can prove you are sane" it should have been "here's our clinic, GO!"Quote:
Originally Posted by tzvia
I don't want to comment on any of the political aspects of this tragedy, but did run across this article that I thought some would like. It deals with Rep. Giffords stand on bikes in terms of urban transportation.
Honestly, it really seems the media need to back off. Gabby is going to be a LONG time in recovering and I'm really, really tired of the fighting back and forth.. Red.. Blue.. how bout RED, WHITE, and BLUE.
If this has already been shared, then I'm sorry for the repeat.
http://www.commutebybike.com/2011/01...mutes-by-bike/
Shannon
Jon Stewart does it again. More comic than serious this time, but still making important points, Stewart skewers the pundits' reaction to the Tucson memorial event.
Shannon, yes it has. But for you and others who have not read this whole thread skip backwards. We have a very moving "Only in TE" photos of Gabby's bike as it sat waiting for her to pick it up at the builders. It's post # 72 in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrip
We've all found the photo very moving. Grab your kleenex. Get a box. :o
Thanks, Veronica for sharing those photos. And thank you TE and TE admins for possibly the most civil ongoing discussion in cyberspace. :cool:
That was hysterical.
Thread drift for a sec, but Trek, you through a robber off a moving train???Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
I love you. Once again, you're my hero.
Roxy - now thinking about taking up Aikido or Krav Maga
Trek's Travel Tip: When traveling don't take the night train thinking "I'll sleep on the train and arrive fresh and refreshed, save the cost of a hotel."Quote:
Originally Posted by channlluv
Take the train during the day, enjoy the scenery, get a pass and stop if a town appeals ... because I don't know if this is still true but back in the day there was a bit of theft on the night trains. :rolleyes:
But yeah, I was young, foolish, in better shape than I am today (though less advanced in the art), the train was moving but very slowly. I'm pretty sure he was not hurt but willing to bet he will think twice about robbing women on the train again ;)
Kids, don't try this at home ;)
But seriously the sole reason I brought this up is that everyone I've trained under has said that self defense, especially for women often comes down to grappling. You're going to go to the ground. And for most people a gun won't do any good there. If criminals knows or think you have a gun it may deter crime in the first place. I'm always for the crime that does not happen. But many situations are hand to hand at least that's been my experience.
Interesting NY Times article about how living in Tucson shaped Giffords' thinking.
A very highly regarded professor of criminology, Gary Kleck, Ph.D. of Florida State University, did a study that shows that guns are 'used' (meaning anything from shouting "I have a gun, leave my house" to actual use) to prevent crimes more often (almost twice as often) than commit them. The information is out there, Google is your friend. When I was forced to grab a gun in my own home (thankfully they did not want to challenge my rifle) I was strongly anti gun- the rifle, a .22, was my father's and probably would not work if I tried, and was empty. It took the L.A. Riots to make me re-think my reliance on police.Quote:
Originally Posted by lunacycles
As for the 'you are more likely to be a victim if you have a gun', that is skewed anti-gun nonsense. First, the data is taken from emergency room info- which leaves out the vast majority of defensive gun use like mine, no shots fired AND not reported to authorities. Also, it is skewed as violent people own violent things (not the other way around) and yes gang bangers, drug dealers and other violent type criminals do shoot each other. Sprouting that as proof that owning a gun is dangerous is quite a stretch.
Now, firearms accidents are another 'foaming at the mouth' anti-gun talking point that should be addressed while the topic is open. From the CDC (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html if you wish to look), the last year they have data, 2007, was 613, out of a population of 301,579,895, a rate of .20. This rate per 100,000 has been falling since the 1930s despite an increase of firearms ownership, population AND an increase in 'shall issue' concealed carry- citizens carrying firearms concealed in public. By comparison, 820 people died in bicycle-involved accidents, a rate of .27 so owning a firearm is is safer than cycling.
Sorry for the long post from my soapbox again ...
The more that comes out on this seems to be a failure of massive proportions on our mental health system. The shooter was acting out long before this, I view it as a cry for help.
I still am not a fan of handguns but my husband owns a shotgun and rifle for occasional hunting trips. My mom taught me to view any gun as loaded and learn were the safety is. I am completely okay with him having them. I am also completely fine with there being rifles and shotguns in the house with my nieces. The seven year old took gun safety this year and the five year old told me guns are not toys when she saw one on TV. That is the slippery slope with guns, there are responsible owners everywhere. Some people have guns for evil and are able to get them readily.
Statistics don't matter when the godson of a friend is shot. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...o-protect-him/
It's a complicated issue. There are responsible, trained owners who should be allowed to have guns. There are people who should never be allowed to have a gun whether because of criminal record, mental health, lack of training or lack of ethics/judgement .... and yet anyone can walk into any Wallmart and get one with extended ammo clip.
We ask more to get a drivers license than to get a gun. Both can take a life.
I have to side with and speak for the people who can't speak; victims of guns. The NRA has a lobby and that's fine. But C.J. can't speak.
Yes. And if you keep googling you will find many studies and articles that show exactly the opposite. One article on the web doesn't say much. I asked the question because while I was attending graduate school we were given loads of evidence to the contrary: guns cause crime much more often than prevent it. The U.S. has the highest rate of violent crime of any country in the first world, that lack of gun control means "x" times as much people die violent deaths in our country. Our lax gun laws mean our guns can and do easily go south of the border to support drug cartels and the heinous crimes they commit... etc etc. Most of this info came to me a decade ago, but as nothing has changed wrt gun control (if anything, access to guns has become even easier), I doubt those stats have changed much. But I honestly don't know and am not interested in proving my point enough to do so in this instance.Quote:
The information is out there, Google is your friend.
Anyway, I agree responsible gun owners exist, but I think too many guns get into the hands of the wrong people as a result of poor regulation and/or enforcement, and it would behoove us all to do whatever we can to change that.
It would behoove us all to vote in ways that assure full mental health care for the most needy.
People with extreme mental illness cannot hold jobs. They can't get insurance through their work. They can't afford to buy it on the open market. And they certainly can't afford to pay cash for their mental health care.
Expecting them to self-diagnose, self-direct, and self-pay is cruel and deeply ignorant.
There is hefty mental illness in every generation of my family, but luckily the family knows and catches the cousins who begin to show signs of schizophrenia or bipolar. One of my cousins is institutionalized right now. If not for the family, where would he be? Where would WE be?
What about those whose parents are also untreated mentally ill, and so no-one catches anyone at all? (Loughner's family sounds like an example)
If Loughner hadn't had a gun handy, he would have used something else. A bottle of Chlorox. A sword. A crossbow. A bomb.
I don't see the weapon as the issue. I see the environment as the issue. Loughner showed clear signs of losing his grip, but nothing existed to catch him before he fell into madness and, surrounded by images of violence, saw violence as the way to go.
Sure, cutting publicly funded mental health care and closing the public institutions in the 1980's saved a ton of money.
But we still have to pay the price.
And it's a lot higher now.
A dear friend of mine, a man I loved and adored was killed in a murder-suicide by his former partner. The guy that killed him had gotten his concealed license one month earlier, used a gun he had for his job in security and was unable to cope with their relationship falling apart. He followed him on a beautiful May morning and shot him point blank range in the chest in broad daylight while the 3 year old he was arriving to babysit watched. Even nearly 15 years later I find myself gasping for breath if I see a handgun, even cops I can't fully trust not to snap. I know both sides way more than I want to. I struggle immensely with believing my family should be allowed to own guns because it also means others can get them just as easily. And I wish nearly every day Keith could speak for himself, he had an informed and well thought opinion on everything if only he weren't silenced. Would he want guns restricted? Would he think anyone is capable of anything? Would he have an even better idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Thank you Knot for as usual saying what I want to say in such a clear manner.
Yes, Knott is very wise. :) :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama
That is pretty impressive (as are the other stories--Trek, you must have some rotten luck getting into so many bad situations). Makes me want to think about taking up a martial art but I would have no idea which one (would have to find something where being 5'2" and 110 pounds would not put me at a horrible disadvantage).Quote:
Originally Posted by channlluv
Trek is smaller than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
Which is probably why she was targeted as an easy victim so many times.
I've seen her in action, she's pretty darn impressive! Tiny cute grandma-lady throws big burly dude across dojo, wheeeeee!
Wing Chun is a nice place to start. It was developed by a woman, so the story goes. I'm about the same size as you, and when I took Wing Chun some years ago, I felt like it was a good fit -- not that I have any thing to compare it to, but I do feel that it is something I will go back to at some point, if/when my life settles down a bit more. My reasons would be not so much for self-defense but just because I enjoy studying a form of movement and the sense of balance that I gain from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
I think we've had this conversation before, but it bears repeating, and I'm sure Trek420 is much more eloquent about it than I could ever be -- the martial arts can offer you a great deal beyond self-defense. There are physical, emotional and for some people even spiritual benefits that can be gained from a lifetime of practice. Self-defense is a great reason to practice a martial art, but it's not the only reason.
In the martial arts, when you spar/fight/compete it is generally within a framework of agreed-upon rules and mutual respect. If you are being attacked by someone who is determined to cause you harm, it is a different ballgame.
In regards to self-defense, which is NOT the same as martial arts, you may be able to find a good weekend workshop/short course that focuses on self-defense for women. Some police departments or community colleges or other community organizations may offer these. They should teach you how to break holds, how to assert yourself and communicate to an attacker that you are more trouble than it is worth. How to hit back with everything you've got and not telegraph your punches. And most important -- if you have the opportunity, steer clear when your spidey-sense is tingling!
If reading about others' experiences and trying a beginner class or self-defense class whets your appetite for practicing a martial art, wonderful! If not, some basic self-defense still gives you some tools that you will hopefully never need.
For my part, I've been thinking about looking for a first aid course. I haven't taken anything like that since high school, maybe it's time for a refresher.
I did take some women's self-defense classes that were offered in college, and they were very good (and included a simulation at the end of the course where we suited up in all kinds of padding and had to escape from one or two guys who were similarly dressed and "attacked" us...the whole thing was even videotaped). However, it was a few years ago and a refresher might be a smart idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by NbyNW
Yes, it's good to keep things fresh. As I was writing that, I was trying to recall what I had learned, and I was thinking it might not come back as quickly now as it would have a few years ago.
Nah, you got it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by NbyNW
It's not a sport, it's an addiction/cult :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by NbyNW
It may take years to learn enough basics that could help you in a situation on the street. If you feel you need to learn something look for a 1-4 day reputable self defense class.Quote:
Originally Posted by NbyNW
I do feel that anything/everything we do that makes us feel strong, at home in our bodies makes us a less appealing target. So keep riding!
Me too! Daniel Hernandez Jr. has inspired me!Quote:
Originally Posted by NbyNW
It always seems to come 'round to cycling... the Congresswoman apparently went for a ride with a friend the night before the shooting, and stopped to snap a cell-phone picture with him.
This blog post includes the picture, as well as a link to a larger NY Times article from which it was sourced. http://tucsonvelo.com/news/giffords-...-shooting/5455
I think there is truth here and being seen as an easy target. I have always been a bigger gal at 5' 5" and over 200 pounds, hands big enough to palm a basketball, so I got my fair share of "space" when it came to "tough" situations. One one and only time I had someone try to rough me, I saw him preparing to throw a football tackle at me, so I lowered my shoulder and leveled the guy into a puddle of wheezing mess gasping for air.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
I would still love to learn some real self defense and training on how to deal with the intense situation should I have to do that.
Now THAT I'd pay to see!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by KnottedYet
No predicting what happens in the heat of a moment but I'd hope that today in a situation like your football dude that I'd step aside. He'd miss me, go sprawling and/or hit a wall or sumthin'Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrip
That's Aikido. :p
You may find that martial arts are not about the situation "If he does this you do that and if it's ...". You can't prepare for it, so many variables. Life isn't long enough to learn it all. But with the right teacher/school you may find a certain calm within should you need it.
And it's great for core, aerobic strength, good cross training. :cool:
Good teachers in martial arts will have the attitude that they hope you never "use it in real life", that's not what the arts are for. Finding the right school is the key.
I've posted this before. The blond chickie is my teacher :p I've trained with all the others in this too. You'll see Kayla Fedor start, the 2nd technique she does at about 40 seconds with uke's neck stretched backwards? That is what came to me on the train. I still have no clue how I got to that technique because I really should not have been able to get there from where he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnHEu...eature=related
That's exactly what I was thinking as I read about that situation...I'd just step to the side and then laugh at him when he took a header ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Falling on cement is no fun, sometimes called a "crash burn landing". :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Jolt