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Me too! I had to walk through the streets of Newark, NJ and since my mother couldn't afford to buy me my own house key, I had to climb into the house through a window.
We did walk to school up and down hilly streets in the snow, but I confess that I did wear shoes in the snow.
Oh yeah, well I carried my tuba up hills both ways in the snow with no shoes on. :)
And you had to climb in and out at, oh, say, 1am? 2am?Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
Dang Zen, your school must have been on one of those roads we ride on...
congratulations ladies--
this series of posts, well meaning or not, has obviously upset one of our sisters enough that she feels she doesn;t want to be on this forum anymore-- I was appalled at the comments directed at her when I read it all. the whole 'conversation' - irrelevant of who was in the right or wrong - doesn;t make me very proud of being a part of this forum right now.. we're here to support each other, not criticize and make personal remarks.
perhaps I will get some of the negative comments now, for saying this, but all of us have sent emails or made remarks that were miscontrued by others in our time and i for one, no doubt, will do so again in the future. i can only hope i will be met with more understanding than smurf, when that inevitably happens..
batsheva
Wait, what about all those people who were or have been offended by Smurf's posts? I guess their feelings don't count because they didn't decide to announce they were leaving. They decided to suck up their bad feelings, realized that this is the Internet and some things get lost in translation and moved on.
I think people were trying to be supportive in a very direct way. If you ask for advice, you're going to get it here and you may not always like it. I know that some of the comments made in some of my threads about my difficult class have really p!ssed me off. Too bad for me. If I don't like the comments, I don't have to read them.
Veronica
Batsheva,
I think this forum is wonderfully supportive and positive towards women. Which is exactly why so many were appalled by the message and intent presented in the original post. Many of us found it to be strongly derogatory and insulting towards older women. I feel that most all of the responses were actually constructive attempts to point out why this kind of message is simply not acceptable to us as active, accepting, thoughtful, and supportive women. Yet instead of any sincerity and reflection, I have seen only defensive posturing and excuse making in return. Well, if you throw out negative attitudes, you can't expect no one to respond.
Sorry, but I think that respect for, and the feelings of, at least half the women on TE counts for something. Frankly, I would have felt ashamed for us all if no one reacted strongly to the original post. Overall, I think there are valuable attitudes and experiences to be absorbed by all of us from this thread and the subsequent thread about how our perceived appearance effects our sense of self worth. I would be willing to bet that there have been many women helped by this self reflection. That includes myself. I have read some profound and inspiring accounts from many women on this and the other thread. We can all benefit from thinking about our attitudes, no matter how young or old we are. We can all learn from each other as we go through life. :)
I am sorry Smurf felt she had to go but the post that started this was a loaded gun. I hope she finds what she is looking for in a bike and hope it is everything she wants. Some of the advice in this thread was a bit judgmental/pointed but I honestly thought even if it was harsh it was meant with loving intentions. It also sparked some interesting and thought provoking debate.
Smurf herself gave me a post about my dog that I shouldn't feed her what the vet said and should take my potentially dying dog off the food he prescribed and get her on something else. I cried and agonized over who was right until my husband told me he was trusting his friend (also a vet) because he knew his education from attending school together. She meant well telling me she didn't think Science Diet was right and I know that. I didn't hold a grudge to her our the several others that agreed with her. My husband and I just made our own decision.
So yeah, people get feelings hurt. It is part of being adults. We suck it up, we say "that is their opinion and I can accept it" or we can't and remove ourselves. She has chosen to remove herself which is a choice.
86 posts and one member leaving over what made me grin... and click away... have you nothing better to do than get offended at something like this. People are dying out there in the world. For Goodness sake.
Wall said, Rabbit.
It's not the first time and probably won't be the last.
I enjoyed the evolution of the thread.
Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.
A heavy rain was falling. Coming around the bend,
they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash,
unable to cross the intersection.
"Come on, girl," said the first monk. Lifting her
in his arms, he carried her over the mud.
The second monk did not speak again until that night
when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer
could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females,"
he said. "It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"
"I left the girl there," the first monk said.
"Are you still carrying her?"
.....
Being on the industry side of cycling, I wanted to stay out of this thread. The bike pitch presented to Smurf sounded pretty par for the course of what I hear on the inside all of the time, unfortunately.
What I did appreciate were women "who have been there" speaking up about what felt offensive to them about that bike pitch. Perhaps it wasn't 100% respectful, but it seemed pretty decently handled by all to me, while also honest. A lot of people went out of their way to stand up for Smurf as a person while still speaking their mind about what was offensive to them, and why.
I think Smurf is young enough that she has perhaps come of age somewhat in the "post-feminist" era, so words that sting our generation don't have the same weight for hers. That is just a theory, of course.
I can tell you very clearly that sexism is alive and well on the inside of this industry, and it is often a taboo subject. Women don't complain, women are underrepresented, so nothing really changes except in really "token" ways (or if it leads to higher sales). Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I have been doing this long enough to really see this as true.
I recently posted on a framebuilder subforum of a very popular road-centric forum (that is approx 98% male membership). There is no point re-hashing it here except to say that one of the highly regarded members of on the forum felt it appropriate to call me hormonal. "PMS gotcha down?" is exactly the words he chose. OK, these things happen, but what was appalling to me is that no one spoke up, no one Finally his post was removed by another moderator, but that was the end of it.
This wasn't the first time something like that happened, and it won't be the last.
So, I pretty much fall on my knees in gratitude when women speak up as a group with regard to sexism in cycling. I have nothing personal against Smurf, but it is painful to hear her only hear the words of her forum "sisters" as an attack on her personally, instead of taking them to heart. Questioning her intelligence probably didn't help keep her engaged, but still. I was sorry to see it resulted in her departure.
That's true, but she wasn't asking for advice or even for comments, she was just passing on somebody elses opinion that she found amusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
I wasn't offended so I can't say for sure, but to me some of the responses were a lot more offensively worded than the original post.
I hope you hang around Smurf, I like having you here.
There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.Quote:
Originally Posted by lunacycles
I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.
We are speaking of the same forum. We both know about this builder. After one of my posts earning a virtual pile on from the boys in that club, I got lots of "off list" emails from women (and some men) giving me support. And african american readers, too. All off list. I tried speaking up for myself, as a woman, there. Not a good idea unless you want to feel very, very isolated. I am isolated enough with the career I chose!Quote:
There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.
I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.
But one woman wrote me something that helped me understand and walk away less angry: "they don't even know what they don't know." That, I am afraid, sums it up for me.
I think issues like sexism and the fact of people dying out there in the world--especially those dying due to violence, greed and starvation--are quite connected.Quote:
86 posts and one member leaving over what made me grin... and click away... have you nothing better to do than get offended at something like this. People are dying out there in the world. For Goodness sake.
Zen, I know that story. The funny thing is, that story is about the danger of holding onto views that keep us separated, that disallow compassionate action. Do you really think that applies here?Quote:
Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.
That line has GOT to be put on a T-shirt. Or an embroidered cushion. Or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokie
The moral of the parable is to let it go or it will forever be a burden.Quote:
Originally Posted by lunacycles
In the zen tradition of "call and response"...I think it goes a little deeper than that.Quote:
The moral of the parable is to let it go or it will forever be a burden.
Brilliant responses, Margo. Thank you for putting it in perspective.
My emotional post was the result of the "friend's" comments, which obviously seemed to upset Smurf as well ("you'll never look as hot as you do now..."). Smurf has a unique outlook, which is something I appreciate. She's an interesting person and she's still making her way, as we all did in our 20s.
I admit that I can be a feminazi when I see women marginalized. I especially get upset when I see women doing it to each other, probably because I've "fought the fight" professionally. Now it seems some of us are fighting a new one: ageism plus sexism.
Quite honestly, it heartened me to see the over 40s here be vocal instead of letting some things go unsaid. How does someone know when they are being offensive unless another person(s) point it out? We all have different styles, some more direct than others. I don't think anyone intended to be mean but I didn't get the impression - based on Smurf's posts - that she really took in a lot of the advice that she sought here.
Margo, you are 100% correct.
Margo, I really appreciated your remarks. I was the first to call Smurf on this, so of course I felt bad when she chose to leave us. That was not my intention at all, but once she used the 'cougar' term, it really touched something deep inside me.
Of course we are the product of the gender discrimination we faced when we were young (yeh, I remember being the only women in my college physical chemistry class, being asked by the prof why I wasn't home making babies........). But I thought todays young people were over all that. Maybe I am biased since my daughter attends Wellesley College, one of the few womens colleges left, and is even more sensitive to gender discrimination, even in its most subtle forms, than I am.
Smurf, if you are reading this please come back. Our remarks weren't meant to chase you away, just to make you a little more sensitive to how your comments made others feel.
not worth the effort.
First, I think it's good to read the whole thread in order to evaluate it. A lot of wise and thoughtful advice and personal feelings and experiences were expressed in it, and also in the sister thread that it spawned. A lot of effort went in to some of the responses...from all viewpoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by snapdragen
It's been an enlightening discussion and has made a lot of us think about the issues- and important issues they are!
My personal view is this...
Some members found the original post funny. That's fine, and that's their right. But many members were offended and angered by the blatant age and sex discrimination being offered up as lighthearted humor. I found most of the responses to be well thought out, an attempt to point out why this material was not supportive towards women, but derogatory. Criticism was mostly offered in a constructive thoughtful way, not in a nasty hurtful way. I didn't see it as 'dogpiling'. Rather, it's a subject that many women feel strongly about, for one reason or another.
Sometimes people choose to leave forums when they post something that elicits a strong negative reaction from many members. That's their choice- they can stay and respectfully consider what people say and then take it or leave it, they can participate (or not) in the discussion of the issue...a discussion which eventually winds down after everyone expresses their views. Or they can announce that they are leaving. I personally don't see it as being 'driven off'. We all have the very same choices, and we all are (or should be) willing to take responsibility for what we post here. None of us expect everyone to agree with what we post here. I have had my own share of people disliking or criticizing my posts and my views here. It happens. It makes me think and consider.
Is there not room here for both views to be expressed? If someone posts something that is sexist or discriminatory and some people think it's funny but others are offended, are the offended ones supposed to just keep quiet? Is that what 'being supportive' means?
What if that fellow who wrote the remarks to Smurf in the original post had come on TE as a member and posted his bike buying 'advice' directly here himself? (I know I know, not bloody likely, but what if?...) Would we all be expected to be 'supportive' of him instead of pointing out to him what a negative attitude we think it presents?
Makes me think. Thinking is good. Sometimes I think it's good to 'keep quiet if you can't say something nice', sometimes maybe not so much.
Why are we keeping his name a secret? I'm sure I'm not the only person here who gets requests for advice from friends and colleagues who want to buy a bike. It's helpful to know who deserves a recommendation and who doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieKate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
I did just read this entire thread from top to bottom. I think Veronica and BSG have this pretty much right. The OP posted something she knew might offend people. Some people got offended and said so. A couple of them said it rudely; others said it without being insulting. Quite a lot of the comments were positive.
I don't think that someone deciding to leave always and automatically equates to someone being "driven off". And actually it seems that the OP has asked for, and received, quite a lot of support on this board in other threads.
I continue to think that in general TE is far better mannered than many other bike boards. Not perfect. But pretty darn good.
Yes, I agree with Salsa and Bleek.
And NY Biker, if you want to know, send a PM to any of the people discussing that frame maker. i'm sure they'll tell you in private.
Smurf, come on back. Some of our wisdom might rub off on you.
meow!
I've read the entire conversation and I think Smurf posted what she wanted to post... she *knew* that the 50 year old woman comment would sting, because she put "no offense to 50 year old...". But, to her it must have been relevant to post the entire thing even though she could have easily edited it to remove the offensive part of it.
Then others both over and under 50 put their thoughts about it and posted what they wanted to post. The thread took some hilarious twists and turns.
I think if Smurf left over something this trivial, she's younger in her behavior then she is in years. It's just plain silly and unwarranted.
Because it could be called libel.Quote:
Originally Posted by ny biker
You want to ask about individual builders? We can give you some opinions publicly and some in private - and always with caution.
Ok everyone - deep breaths! - I think Smurf just had a friend who meant to say "cut the s*** and just ride the best bike you can buy cause life is short"
Amen to that. Ladies, I was that person who debated endlessly...and just ended up pinching my nose and jumping in and love the bike I chose. But I would have equally loved the Cervelo, or Scott, or Orbea I'm sure.
She shouldn't leave - because she was just passing on what for her was wisdom. And for people like me it would have also been good advice!
Yes, but the guy's remark was delivered as a sexist, shallow remark with condescending overtones.Quote:
Originally Posted by fidlfreek
The irony to this is the 50 yr olds make up a market that generally has more buying power, not the 20 somethings. :cool:
I just think she doesn't know enough 50 year olds in real life ;)
Somehow I've missed this thread since it's inception..I've read it from top to bottom and all I have to say is "I am going to be 51 and I'm not easily offended." My 2 cents :). Btw, what's so great about AMEX - I have one in a drawer somewhere..is there something I should know? :D
If you have the right AMEX you can get quite a bit of cash back if you use it for things like gas and groceries.
Offense, like beauty, is in the mind of the beholder.
Veronica
Why is when you give your opinion it's worth two cents but for your thoughts you're only offered a penny?
I never thought of that...:D..Zen you are deep!
I wish I could take credit for that one, but no :oQuote:
Originally Posted by spindizzy