Should Men be allowed in a Women's Forum?

Just my .02. This is a public forum and therefore I believe we have to allow men. Personally, I do not have a problem with it as the facilities exist to have a member banned if they are offensive, and we are strong enough (both with our personality and in numbers) to make them feel more uncomfortable then they could possibly make us.

This thread reminds me of a case that's been in my local news. A man has successfully sued a womans only gym to allow him membership. He won, the gym has now had to close because they could not afford to build a locker room and shower facilities for him, or to pay the daily fines levied for each day they did not provide these facilities. I'm a little less in agreement with this judgment as I think having to pay for membership, makes it more of a "private" business than a public entity. However, the case was argued that private mens clubs were banned in the interest of equality and that women have to "play fair" now that the tables are turned.

Just checked my identical twins hands...index and ring finger are the same length on both hands. DH points out his are not. ;) My index finger is longer on both hands. :eek: What the heck does that mean? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bikingmomof3

Just checked my identical twins hands...index and ring finger are the same length on both hands. DH points out his are not. ;) My index finger is longer on both hands. :eek: What the heck does that mean? :rolleyes:

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YOU HAVE A TWIN?????

So which one of you is more competitive?

Does it matter? We already know Jen's the evil one... ;)

ohhhhh
I kid 'cuz I love
my sister.
ARRR!!! Nooo don't chase me!!! AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!~
.....


....

Here, amuse yourselves with the whole finger measurement thing and more:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbo...add_user.shtml

The whole debate is moot, because there is no way to police it. However, our kind and generous sponsors and hosts could easily open the forum only to TE customers. (In which case, I would have a gold-plated lifetime membership!) That might be a way of limiting access, but it's not very appealing. I think most of us like the welcoming feel of this group. Inclusionary, not exclusionary...

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Originally Posted by Pedal Wench

The whole debate is moot, because there is no way to police it. However, our kind and generous sponsors and hosts could easily open the forum only to TE customers. (In which case, I would have a gold-plated lifetime membership!) That might be a way of limiting access, but it's not very appealing. I think most of us like the welcoming feel of this group. Inclusionary, not exclusionary...

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Right.

There have been the occasional male posters who I am not certain understood what team ESTROGEN meant. :D :cool:

I participate both here and in co-ed forums. Personally I like posting and reading here more because there is a greater range of topics discussed and the discussions tend to be more thought out and civil than because it is exclusively women. Granted these things happen likely because it is a women's forum, but thoughtfullness and civility are not mutually exclusive with being a man. I can see no reason to discriminate against anyone and I can understand if a man might like this forum for the same reasons I do. (speaking as a woman married to a man who feels he doesn't understand other men all that well and what's all that macho bs about anyway...but he's not a forum reader kind of guy so I don't think you'll ever hear from him)

Plus, like others said this is a public forum - anyone who wants to can get on and read your posts, so sorry to break any illusions, but don't share things you want to keep private... If it would embarass you to discuss diva cups or hormones in a crowded noisy restaurant, well this is pretty much the same atmosphere, anyone can "overhear" you.

Civil, yes, but I'd like to point out that although we have the term "testosterone poisoning" for the BJ/MTBR forums' knack for "You suck because of a,b,c...." and "My bike has more bling because a,b,c..." we manage to have our own ridiculous cattiness and metaphorical "My <X> is bigger/better/lighter/more expensive than yours" going on here. No real term for it, certainly not 'estrogen poisoning'... probably not even insecurity. Just stupid cattiness.

Men did not bring that here. It's our own competitive nature. Yes it runs rampant on those other forums to a much greater degree, but pressed, I betcha I could come up with several threads who have managed great wonders of b*tchiness.

I just LOVE the ones where newbies will come on and say "I'm just starting biking, but only want to spend $3k on a bike..."
...wtf? If you're just starting, entry level is fine. Better than fine. I'd encourage it. I wouldn't say anyone would be wasting their money. Why? Entry level is heavier. It does not glide like a little nimble gazelle. That's good. Why? Because then you have to work that much harder as you start out. It strengthens you while you still have that cute novice drive.
Hate to break it to anyone, too, but unless you're racing etc, it's worthless shave grams here and there and everywhere at the expense of hundreds.
You know that chick in downtown Portland wearing striped knee socks and an Invader Zim messenger bag on the rusty, hot pink singlespeed nishiki? She'll blow your doors in. Hardcore. Why? She does it every freakin' day. She's no weight weenie. She's not a wooly nut. She just does what she does every day, and then hangs with her friends for a beer and a pizza.

Another thing, You list to me the real racers on this forum, and guaranteed, you look at what they're saying, where they're posting, they are generally not the ones talking smack about who's what is lighter, whether or not their Underarmor is better than your whatever, or if entry level is a waste of time.

We cannot ban men on the basis of 'testosterone poisoning' on coed forums because we bring it right here, ladies. Right here in our own back yard.

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Originally Posted by mimitabby

YOU HAVE A TWIN?????

So which one of you is more competitive?

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I am not a twin. I have identical twin boys. :) Sorry for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by Bikingmomof3

I am not a twin. I have identical twin boys. :) Sorry for the confusion.

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OH DUH!!!

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Originally Posted by mimitabby

OH DUH!!!

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Could you imagine two of me? Scary thought! :p

Whoa Kit!
I'm not saying there is never any heated discussion or down right silly bickering here and/or that there is never anything useful said on the co-ed board I post to either - otherwise I'd quit visiting there. There's just significantly less of it here. The trend really is for less of that behavior and more really trying to answer questions and be supportive. The other forum has a lot more members too so there is a lot more repetition of people asking the same questions over and over again - and that cannot be blamed on the gender of the posters.

btw - what I really don't miss that doesn't go on here much if at all is the my favorite pro rider is better than your favorite pro rider - that's only because your favorite rider dopes -yours does too - well you suck- no you suck blah de blah de blah de that gets discussed a lot on the other forum.

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Originally Posted by Eden

btw - what I really don't miss that doesn't go on here much if at all is the my favorite pro rider is better than your favorite pro rider - that's only because your favorite rider dopes -yours does too - well you suck- no you suck blah de blah de blah de that gets discussed a lot on the other forum.

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What we are spared of here is: "I rode such and such in 2 hours" to get a response of; "well, I did it in 55 minutes, with only 1 pedal!"
the constant testosterone challenge. Here, you might not be the best rider
but the better (?) riders aren't going to grind you into the dirt for sharing your achievements.

Of course there is heated discussion. There are some things people are quite passionate about. I guess I've missed something because I haven't seen a lot of cattiness. I've seen questioning some one's opinion and asking for evidence to support their opinion. But not a lot of cattiness. I have not seen people putting down what others are riding. But I don't read every thread either. It may be there, but it's not rampant.

If we all agreed on every little thing, what would be the point of a forum?

We'd all be riding Rivendells and sitting on Brooks saddles because naturally that's the right thing. Only black leather bar tape is allowed.

Everyone would drink Sustain mixed with gatorade, the green flavor. Only orange and red sports beans would be allowed. Red Bull not any other energy drink and nothing with raisins. Everyone would be training to do double centuries, none of this triathlon stuff.

Oh and only friction shifters, the only carbon allowed is your brake levers and only eggbeaters for pedals. Everyone must wear ruby slippers and red and orange are the only bike colors allowed.

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

So, you're all on board right?!


V.

Please feel free to debate with me on any of those issues. But don't expect to change my mind. :D

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Originally Posted by Veronica

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

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Ahem. Jaan Kirsipuu.

Danilo Diluca, Daanilo Diluca, Danilo Diluuuca, Danilo Diiiluca

but don't expect me to give up my carbon or drink Red Bull ;)

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Originally Posted by Bluetree

Ahem. Jaan Kirsipuu.

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His last name is too sissy. Plus it makes me think of poo. :p

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

V.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

Of course there is heated discussion. There are some things people are quite passionate about. I guess I've missed something because I haven't seen a lot of cattiness. I've seen questioning some one's opinion and asking for evidence to support their opinion. But not a lot of cattiness. I have not seen people putting down what others are riding. But I don't read every thread either. It may be there, but it's not rampant.

If we all agreed on every little thing, what would be the point of a forum?

We'd all be riding Rivendells and sitting on Brooks saddles because naturally that's the right thing. Only black leather bar tape is allowed.

Everyone would drink Sustain mixed with gatorade, the green flavor. Only orange and red sports beans would be allowed. Red Bull not any other energy drink and nothing with raisins. Everyone would be training to do double centuries, none of this triathlon stuff.

Oh and only friction shifters, the only carbon allowed is your brake levers and only eggbeaters for pedals. Everyone must wear ruby slippers and red and orange are the only bike colors allowed.

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

So, you're all on board right?!


V.

Please feel free to debate with me on any of those issues. But don't expect to change my mind. :D

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LOL - I love you V!!!

This made me think of Jo and I crusing along yesterday. Two very different bikes but I dont think Jo and I have ever discussed bike choices....hmm might be because we are to busy talking beer and pizza oh and what rides to do next.:D

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Originally Posted by Veronica

We'd all be sitting on Brooks saddles because naturally that's the right thing.

red and orange are the only bike colors allowed.

Every one's favorite pro rider is Danilo Diluca because his name is cool to say over and over in your head as you climb up a big freakin' mountain.

So, you're all on board right?!


V.

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yes, I am! :D :D Danilo Diluca is kind of a nice name, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Trekhawk

LOL - I love you V!!!

This made me think of Jo and I crusing along yesterday. Two very different bikes but I dont think Jo and I have ever discussed bike choices....hmm might be because we are to busy talking beer and pizza oh and what rides to do next.:D

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I thought it was 'cuz you were too busy dissin' MP. :p

V.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

V.

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Well this is one bandwagon I can jump on! :D

As long as the cookies have some chocolate. Some peanut butter would be good too.

Thor Hushovd. Enuf said!! Danilo? Sounds like a brand of yogurt? ;)

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Originally Posted by Velobambina

Thor Hushovd. Enuf said!! Danilo? Sounds like a brand of yogurt? ;)

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Oh sure... throw in that "God of Thunder" cr*p... :rolleyes:

I think I like the alliteration.

Jens Voigt - the former East German.

How old do you suppose he was when the wall came down?

V.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

I think I like the alliteration.

Jens Voight - the former East German.

How old do you suppose he was when the wall came down?

V.

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He's my personal favorite. And no, you're not going to trick me into doing math! :p

Voight's a honey. Oooh... I can't believe I said that.

I think he's one of the old school goombahs, like Vino, Ullrich, Ekimov...

Okay - he was born in '71. He's older than I thought.

V.

Yeah, he's almost our age.... :rolleyes:

Interesting question. I've seen this before in women in technology spaces. I am a member of one mailing list/chat community in particular that has faced many of these issues.

As the community was developed, it turned out it became a positive environment for beginners, advanced users, technophobes, and technophiles alike. Somewhere along the line, the community gained a reputation for positive, encouraging answers, that were also technically accurate and thoughtful. The community never excluded men, and over time, the male to female ratio on many of the mailing lists was debatable.

At several points in time, men on these mailing lists began to dominate conversation and answer many of the questions. A lot of the women on the lists fell back into "old habits" -- not answering questions, being afraid to be shot down, that kind of thing. Some of the men answered questions in very direct (not disrespectful necessarily, but matter-of-factly) tones, which served to turn a lot of the women off. One solution was to politely ask the men to respect the womens' space and the objectives of the community in general, which worked to an extent. Most of the men participating didn't even realise what they were doing, and were shocked to find out how it was received.

Another solution that was very accomodating to the "locker room" sort of mentality was to also create a womens-only sub-space for the community. This is a forum where only women are allowed. Of course it's difficult to enforce over the internet (as others have mentioned), but it did serve as an area where if a man was discovered ("outed") he was not welcome. Some women refused to participate, but it seemed to be a "best of both worlds" sort of thing. One issue faced here was transgendered/transexual people, and it was decided that gender identity (how a person identifies themselves) took precendence over biological identity (a person's physical sex). To me that's the only reasonable course of action, but it was debated -- some people see someone who is physically male but identified female as male, and no argument will change their mind.

I have participated in other strictly women-only communities where men are absolutely not allowed. While it is discriminatory, the argument for this is that most communities are male-dominated, and having a women-only community is to restore the balance by biasing heavily (exclusively) in the other direction. It would be awesome if we were able to discuss all issues in the presence of any gender without discrimination, but the unfortunate reality of our time is that we're just not there yet. Even when we do get there, it may still be nice to have gender/sex-centric issues (men don't have periods and women don't have prostates :p), but the exclusion of other gender/sexes may just not be necessary or realistic.

I don't mind the male presence, but we should keep the charter of this forum in mind: womens cycling and related issues. If this forum becomes male-dominated, we will have to deal with it, but in the meantime, one or two polite and helpful men aren't going to kill us.

</soapbox>

Gawd. Say it's not so! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Wahine

I'm a little uncomfortable now. I don't really have much in the way of boobs. Can I still post? :D :D

Sorry, I thought this thread needed a little comic relief.

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I have PLENTY and then some and have often been asked to share, but unfortunately it don't happen that way:p

As far as the topic, I'm so far behind on the forums with computer problems, health problems and worry over my grandmother I don't know what happened on another thread, but I'll weigh in with as long as they are respectful and realize that this is indeed a forum discussing women's issues, I see no problem. My husband will be given my password etc and notes to possibly keep you guys up to date if I ever get in to see a surgeon and happen to need back surgery. I think Mr Silver has been great, I appreciated knowing about Silver's accident and her condition until she could get online and update us herself. It touched me deeply when I was offline recently and found when I came back that he'd inquired on my back. I hope he's feeling better too.
I don't like any form of discrimination either, as to the comment about why would a straight person go to a gay bar, I went to several with one of my friends for my birthday when I was single and had one of the best birthday's I can remember. It was great going, dancing having a blast and not being expected to "put out" for the priveledge LOL.... Seriously though, I've had many gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered friends over the years and I'd hate for them to be excluded from something just because of their gender/preference etc.
just my 2 cents and some change :D

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Originally Posted by Velobambina

Thor Hushovd. Enuf said!! Danilo? Sounds like a brand of yogurt? ;)

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Thor will smash!

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Originally Posted by colby

(men don't have periods and women don't have prostates :p)

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Tell that to my brother (the dorky one, not the other one). We were talking health and doctors recently and he proudly told me he regularly gets his prostate checked to avoid prostate cancer. "And YOU should get YOURS checked TOO!" he advised me. "I should??" says I. Then I had to let him know, and afterwards he said "I sure feel dumb!". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I should have told him to get a PAP smear every year....

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Originally Posted by Veronica

Oh and I forgot... you all must eat cookies!

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NOW I'm on board..... :D

~Emily

I think you're a little late, Emily.
Lisa and Trek ate all the cookies. :rolleyes:

But there might be some leftover pie on the other thread...

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Originally Posted by Bluetree

I think you're a little late, Emily.
Lisa and Trek ate all the cookies. :rolleyes:
But there might be some leftover pie on the other thread...

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SOLD! I've been reading that thread, and I am getting so hungry! And my DH just came upstairs and offered me some brownie-covered walnuts (have you ever heard of such a thing?! They were in his Christmas goodie basket from my mother). I've already brushed my teeth, so I was strong....
....but I did ask him to save me some for tomorrow night!

Emily

pops head up

Someone say Jens Voigt ?!?

He is simply beyond cool.
I fell in love with him all over again when I watched Overcoming.

Which I forgot to give back to you this weekend, sorry MP ! :o