Very upset - my dog accused of biting an elderly man

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Originally Posted by PamNY

You misread my post. I did not say that jumping up is "not so bad" and I did not say I think it is "cute." I did describe behavior that I have observed many times over a period of decades -- which is people tolerating and sometimes encouraging jumping up by a dog. This is a huge issue if you use positive reinforcement to train, as I do.

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Maybe I'm not being articulate today. In no way was I suggesting that you were tolerating jumping - you brought up and underscored that some people think it's cute, acceptable, whatever; then added to that comment with how people underminine training efforts, and then I just went on to ask why the heck do people think it's cute or acceptable in general. Whether it's a 8 pound mini-dog jumping at your ankles, or a 125 pound newfie... it's never cute.

Back in ancient times when we were doing obedience work, we were taught to knee a dog in the chest or face to discourage jumping. Not as the dog handler, but as someone being approached by a jumper. What's the thinking nowadays when you see it coming?

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Originally Posted by Irulan

Back in ancient times when we were doing obedience work, we were taught to knee a dog in the chest or face to discourage jumping. Not as the dog handler, but as someone being approached by a jumper. What's the thinking nowadays when you see it coming?

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The handler/owner tells the dog to sit.

Obviously, I wasn't there and I'm not making excuses for anybody BUT - if the man had a stoop, it's possible the dog misinterpreted it as a gesture to interact. We've all seen how people interact with a small dog - they stoop over.

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Originally Posted by smilingcat

I think having the certification after the fact is still very relevant and getting ASAP would be much better than later.

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In our city, and possibly elsewhere, if somebody sticks their hand in my yard and my dog bites it, I am responsible. Having a "Beware of dog" sign can be misinterpreted as knowing that you have a problem & warning others to stay away.

The law is NOT on the side of the dog owner. I'm sure Emily feels terrible - I would too. But, my point is that she needs to gather evidence NOW in case this should escalate. I feel it is my responsibility as a dog owner to protect my dog.

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Originally Posted by Dogmama

I feel it is my responsibility as a dog owner to protect my dog.

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Are you saying that the dog's welfare is more important than the person he injured?

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Originally Posted by Irulan

Maybe I'm not being articulate today. In no way was I suggesting that you were tolerating jumping - you brought up and underscored that some people think it's cute, acceptable, whatever; then added to that comment with how people underminine training efforts, and then I just went on to ask why the heck do people think it's cute or acceptable in general. Whether it's a 8 pound mini-dog jumping at your ankles, or a 125 pound newfie... it's never cute.

Back in ancient times when we were doing obedience work, we were taught to knee a dog in the chest or face to discourage jumping. Not as the dog handler, but as someone being approached by a jumper. What's the thinking nowadays when you see it coming?

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Sorry, I misunderstood.

In general, I've found some people think you are being "mean" to the dog if you expect him to behave. Or they find the misbehavior to be funny. Everyone wants to be an indulgent grandparent.

One person I'm forced to put up with right now actually insists on feeding the dog treats when guests are here. She thinks it is funny and laughs at me when leave the room. Not a question of brains -- she has a PhD.

If I'm jumped on, I try saying "Sit." A lot of dogs know sit. Since I'm in a city with mostly leashed dogs, I have the option of backing away.

I can also be quite firm with the owner when needed.

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Originally Posted by Dogmama

Obviously, I wasn't there and I'm not making excuses for anybody BUT - if the man had a stoop, it's possible the dog misinterpreted it as a gesture to interact. We've all seen how people interact with a small dog - they stoop over.

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That's a very good observation. As you said, not to make excuses, but to better understand how our dogs view the world.

One of my rescues was afraid of drunk people, and he was very alarmed by elderly people with a shuffling gait. At first I when I saw that reaction I though "What now?" On reflection, it made a lot of sense. Drunks walk funny, and there is a similarity with alcohol-impaired gait.

Emily, I'm sorry to hear about this situation. I feel for you and the gentleman; whatever the dog did or did not do, it was perceived as aggressive and that's really all that matters.

As a dog owner, I'm very nervous about something like this happening. I am training my dog for the Canine Good Citizen certification. It's difficult with him because he's a rescue from an abusive situation and there's alot of doggie baggage to get through. He dislikes most children because he was abused by them, but if he ever went after a kid, that would be the end of him regardless of the reasons, history, or even if it wasn't really aggressive. It's all about perception.

When a dog jumps, the best thing to do is simply turn away and walk away. Eventually the dog will figure out that jumping is not going to result in attention. This is what you should do for training. Especially with small dogs, people tend to encourage jumping without realizing it because they bend down and talk in baby-dog talk (I can't stand that, but it happens). When you get home, don't reward the jumping by bending down and petting and talking to the dog. Turn away and ignore the dog until he stops jumping and calms down. Then approach the dog and praise him, but only if he remains unjumpy.

Best wishes for getting this sorted out, Emily!

yikes! that's horrible, I would be anxious and worried, too. Hopefully this will resolve with nothing more than just the "quarantine", though that doesn't sound all that fair, either.

I once was fostering a little dog; when I took him to the store and had him tied up outside, someone came into the store yelling "who's dog is that out there?" He had his hand up, which was quite bloody, and he said it was his fault for trying to pet him but just wanted to know that the dog was up to date on his shots. I felt bad, but glad he didn't press the issue further.

I always found it ludicrous that if a burglar came into my home and my dog attacked him, *I*'m responsible and can subsequently be sued. You'd think I should be suing HIM for breaking into my home and stealing my belongings.

Pam, I laughed when you said "people think you are mean when you expect a dog to behave."
Yeah, and they think the same thing with kids. Not being an animal person, I am betting it's the same phenomenon. People have difficulty being consistent when teaching skills.
I once removed the hand of a very close friend's daughter from something she was touching and told her "no," when she was about 2 and half or three. She started screaming and crying that I was "mean." I didn't hit her or even yell. But this kid had never been told no... she was an absolute monster because she had never been told no, and she ended up really messed up as an adult.
I would think that's what's going on when people think it's cute when their dogs jump.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

Sorry, I misunderstood.

In general, I've found some people think you are being "mean" to the dog if you expect him to behave. Or they find the misbehavior to be funny. Everyone wants to be an indulgent grandparent.

One person I'm forced to put up with right now actually insists on feeding the dog treats when guests are here. She thinks it is funny and laughs at me when leave the room. Not a question of brains -- she has a PhD.

If I'm jumped on, I try saying "Sit." A lot of dogs know sit. Since I'm in a city with mostly leashed dogs, I have the option of backing away.

I can also be quite firm with the owner when needed.

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lol now this is morphing into another thread. Don't get me going on retracto-leashes and dogs taking their owners for a walk....

I've seen CGC mentioned a couple of times in this thread. I am a CGC instructor for our local club. One of the things we work with with ALL of the dogs is not jumping up. I'm always amused by this - yes it's important, but geez I would love a dog that was friendly enough to jump up!
I would take the most common advice on here, try and relax, give you pup a hug, be nice polite and reasonable, protect your dog.
I would also sign up for a CGC class. You may find you enjoy it and it does hold weight - both that you are willing to do it after the fact and if anything ever happens again. Honestly, it's a silly little piece of paper and a way for AKC to make money, but it does look good, and you and your dog do learn things.
Many of the handlers in my current CGC class are planning on starting obedience classes - why, because they and their dogs are loving the time together.

As for the kneeing idea - some instructors still do it, some don't. I will do it with owners I know are gentle, it's a gentle reminder, not a punishment. I would not have a stranger do it because I wouldn't know how they would do it - not a punishment! Getting people to ignore you dog works the best - when your dog jumps up on someone and they pet it, the dog has just been taught to jump up. Many dogs figure out in a hurry that it doesn't get them anywhere and stop.

BTW - the CGC exam consists of 10 tasks. You can take the exam without taking a class, we charge $10 to take the exam, but recommend the class just for the experience. this is an abbreviated version of the 10 tasks:
1. The dog will be expected to sit and stand calmly while you stop and speak to a stranger.
2. The dog must demonstrate it can remain calm while being walked in a crowd.
3. The dog should be able to allow a stranger to walk it on leash while the owner is not present.
4. The dog will need to walk with the owner on a loose leash. Be prepared to also demonstrate the dog’s ability to turn left, right and coming to a stop.
5. The dog must sit while a stranger pets it.
6. The dog should demonstrate focus when confronted with common, unexpected events such as loud noises or a passing person walking nearby.
7. The dog must allow a stranger to groom it with a brush and examine its feet and ears.
8. The dog will be required to meet another dog without overreacting and should show only a casual interest.
9. The dog must be able to stay on command while the owner walks away.
10. The dog must come on command.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

Don't get me going on retracto-leashes ....

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hahahaha ... a perfect example of it IS the owner.

I guarantee you that you, I or anyone can reel a dog in on a retractable lead quicker and safer than they can with a non-retractable leather or woven lead. The fact that some people choose not to reel their dogs in has nothing to do with the equipment they're using.

Unless you think that people should permanently walk their dogs only on 18" show leads ... anyone can have that retractable from 10'+ down to 18" in less than two seconds.

I do not like retractable leashes. The point is not the speed of retraction, the point is that the leash is constantly taut and the dog is constantly taut. Plus you cannot see them, as we can all attest to on MUPs as cyclists. A loose dog on a loose leash is infinitely more relaxed than one on the end of a tight rope.

Dog opinions can get heated, so that's all I'll say about it. Back to bikes.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

hahahaha ... a perfect example of it IS the owner.

I guarantee you that you, I or anyone can reel a dog in on a retractable lead quicker and safer than they can with a non-retractable leather or woven lead. The fact that some people choose not to reel their dogs in has nothing to do with the equipment they're using.

Unless you think that people should permanently walk their dogs only on 18" show leads ... anyone can have that retractable from 10'+ down to 18" in less than two seconds.

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But doesn't that mean either you or the dog has to move from 10' apart to 18" apart in less than two seconds, too?

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Originally Posted by ny biker

But doesn't that mean either you or the dog has to move from 10' apart to 18" apart in less than two seconds, too?

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yeah just a couple weeks ago, I was heading down a mup and two women and 3 dogs had 30 feet of trail and lawn completely blocked. They were happily chatting away and the dogs were in all different directions. They couldn't understand why i was not amused.

TsPoet, any dog that tries to jump on me is going to get kneed. I don't want to get scratched, licked or soiled by any dog...