I'm NOT thinking about eating better. I want another cookie! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
V.
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I'm NOT thinking about eating better. I want another cookie! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
V.
No you did say it better. :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
"Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate...."
I'm just asking is all....please don't kill the messenger...just a question:
In the top left hand corner of your screen ladies and gentlemen you see "women's cycling discussion forums".
We are it, but we don't own it.
Two keystrokes and we're a "cycling forum".
I'm just asking is all, what do you think of that? :cool: :rolleyes:
Would we still "have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate." as Thorn so well said.
I hope so. I was after all the 2nd person on the board to welcome Mr. Silver.
Nothing new here, just my 'vote'
Discrimination s*cks. I won't be party to it.
Anyone of any gender should, and hoepfully will, be banned for abusive or seriously inappropriate comments (NOT just varying opinions). All other comments and the people who make them are welcome.
Anyone reading or joining this forum knows it is slanted for women and issues that relate specifically to them. If you have a useful, respectful, thoughtful, funny,(......) comment, by all means throw it in whoever you are.
I'm still kinda on the fence on this one, and therefore glad to see that discussions are ongoing and (not least!) amicable. Seems like we all acknowledge one anothers points of view, which feels right to me. It's part of what TE, at its best, has felt like all along.
So here's my acknowledgement to both sides:
On the one hand -- I've experienced TE as a place I expected to feel at home from the get go because it was a women's cycling forum. That, and the TE rules of behaviour (not sure whether these are published anywhere, but sister Trek420 explained them to me as motivation to join) such as acceptance for (especially women) cyclists at all levels, supportive and informative response to whatever questions one has -- no question to embarrassing or too stupid or too naive or ... whatever. Also that we tiptoe around divisive issues, but without totally hiding them, just trying not to insult one another yet recognizing our differences on all kinds of levels. And I must say, the fact that it's a women's forum goes some ways to making those rules more credible, and possibly easier to "police" ...? Because, whatever I may think of a strict biological sexual divide (see below), I do recognize that there tends to be a cultural one.
On the other hand -- Most of the few men who've participated openly and actively for any length of time (and certainly Mr. Silver and my cousin Maury) have found themselves right at home abiding by those rules. In fact, I can readily see where Mr. Silver would be attracted to our forum, given his cycling goals. C'mon! We've had our laughs about some of those testosterone-enriched fora where every other guy is posting about how embarrassing it is to be passed by a woman cyclist! How supportive would such a place be to a guy who's training to lose weight and keep up with his cycling wife? Furthermore, recognizing and accepting all other differences but drawing the line according to a more or less arbitrary biological definition (I won't go into details, but in my line of research we question the reality of a binary division into two mutually exclusive sexes) ... well, isn't that a bit inconsistent?
So how can we balance between these two sides of the fence? Could we continue to call ourselves a women's cycling forum, but accept men on an invitation only basis? And should we maybe have a set of rules, formulated politely and in positive terms ("On TE we always ..." rather than "On TE we do not ...")? That way we can still "out" the occasional "troll". We're not as likely to get a rush of men applicants, either as positive seekers or as web "pirates" out to break into any place that tries to exclude them. We can also admonish, or worst case exclude, anybody who behaves rudely.
Or then again ... maybe we just let this discussion take its course and then, wherever we land, try to go on without making any changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I am uncomfortable with the thought that someone would be uncomfortable with a respectful male posting here! Yes, there are some "private" topics discussed here, but frankly, anyone can see them. They might not post in reply, but they could be reading everything. There have been a few things that I wouldn't post about, because I don't want someone googling my name and seeing my discussion of an "intimate" problem. I don't mind if others discuss whatever, but you never know who is reading the boards.
My husband is a lot like Mr. Silver. The thought that some would want to ban him is a little dismaying. He doesn't want to sit around and talk about Diva cups, etc, but he might have something interesting to say about cycling, weight loss, etc. I know he went to the saddle thread when I was having all of my issues this summer.
Let's keep this group diverse and inclusionary (is that a word?). Unless someone of either gender is being inappropriate, they should be able to post here.
Trivia geek here: tell me what this thing with the ring finger length?Quote:
Originally Posted by lph
~T~
Dang, the link doesn't work. Here's the story.
Finger length linked to female sporting potential Wed Sep 27, 8:35 PM ET
LONDON (Reuters) - The length of a girl's ring finger could be an indicator of her future sporting potential, researchers at King's College London said on Thursday.
In the largest study of its kind, hand measurements of 607 female twins aged 25-79 from the UK were compared with the women's lifetime sporting achievements.
The findings, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that women with ring fingers longer than their index fingers had performed better at running and associated running sports such as soccer and tennis.
In women the ring finger is commonly shorter or the same length as the index finger, while in men the ring finger is generally longer.
The report said detection of sporting potential by examining the ratio between the index and ring fingers "could help identify talented individuals at a pre-competitive stage."
The reasons for the findings were unclear, said one of the report's authors, Professor Tim Spector from the Twins Research Unit at King's College, who said he was originally sceptical about the link to sporting ability.
"Previous studies have suggested the change in finger length was due to changes in testosterone levels in the womb", he said.
But he said the unit had found in a separate study of twins that finger length was largely inherited, possibly explaining why sporting parents often have sporting children.
"We found that finger length was 70 percent heritable with little influence of the womb environment," he said.
"This suggests that genes are the main factor and that finger length is a marker of your genes."
He said no specific candidate genes had been identified for the link and that multiple genes were probably responsible.
Previous studies looking at the link between finger length and sporting ability have mainly focussed on men.
A study published in 2001 of 304 English professional soccer players found they had a significantly larger ring-to-index-finger ratio than a control group of 533 other men.
Other studies in men have shown the ratio of the ring finger to the index finger can be associated with varied traits such as sexuality, musical ability and vulnerability to certain diseases.
__________________
I can't help but throw this in after the mentions of discrimination and lawsuits. Discrimination is not per se illegal. Distasteful maybe. It isn't illegal to have men's clubs or women's clubs.
Augusta National (as it was previously mentioned) is a men's club. Not illegal.
I think a better analogy is that of a locker room.
Fascinating how this has evolved into a discussion about "banning" men from the forum. I have no desire to see anyone banned (not a big fan of censorship), I do have a desire to see the comfortable feel of TE remain.
While many of you see his posts as respectful and interesting, I have to say the first and only contact I had with him was a post where he referenced his need for a battle-cry (per his post...a testosterone thing). That is the post where I first questioned his desire to participate here. My initial questions were posted specifically to Mr. Silver asking him why he was choosing to post here. I was quite puzzled about why any man would choose to hang out here as a regular member, rather than doing the drive by posting like many of the men (husbands, SO's, etc) do on TE.
Which hand? On my left they're the same length, on my right the ring finger is longer (as measured against a ruler between the respective fingers and the middle finger -- is that the method?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Ok...just observations....
I have read this entire thread, and the original thread, and I have to agree with Queen, and her attempt to bring us back to her original idea, which was one of being puzzled.
I too am puzzled...not offended, or put out in any way...just puzzled.
I belong to several boards, all of which are co-ed...I have no problem with that at all, I don't want to see any discriminated against ever.
However, that being said, the original issue was just confusion, and I think that this discussion has moved away from that idea.
Ruth
Not only do we come here as an escape from too much testosterone, but I would imagine some men may do so as well.
As long as there is respect for issues which only women face (pregnancy, PMS, saddles fitting in the wrong places for women) I don't see why men should not participate.
If the men who do sign up cause problems, I would imagine that the TOS for the forum would take care of that.
I am certain that men lurk here. But they probably get bored fairly quickly.
East Hill
I was surprised to say the least when Mr Silver started posting about topics other than Silver's accident and recovery.
I am even more surprised at his posting on this topic and explaining himself. In my (misspent??) youth a Real (New) Man would not be caught dead in Women's Space. He would be too respectful of it. (And if he was another sort of man -sexist,regular or a parasitic liberal; he *would* be caught dead you can bet on it)
Puzzlement, as Queen put it.
That said... I spent a while one evening looking at some military websites prior to my son's enlistment. I arrived by a chance click and lurked about on a Very Strange Forum for Gung-ho Special Forces. It piqued my curiosity I admit but after 20 min I had had enough. So I imagine men who get to TE would do the same - unless they are posting about a specific TE member who has crashed or is ill or needs our input in whatever form (prayer, thoughts, advice, knowledge or equipment) in an emergency.
I love the atmosphere here, and the wide variety of women , the humour and the incredible support and advice offered to one another .(I think back to my War Reports of the summer) .
I personally have a very detailed conception of separatism and modesty (which I have spent the last 25 years refining I might add!) and the all-women /only women nature of TE suits me.
$0.02
Added with this edit: I see Mr Silver has 65 posts and a "rate" of 4 per day. Whaaat? If my SO was posting this much on TE I would sure have a few questions, accompanied by much hand gesturing. I like my privacy and respect yours-all's too.
On both hands my ring finger is a full cm longer than my index finger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
I'm just waiting for my running performance to kick in :p
So far it just correlates with some less-than-feminine behaviour... ;)
Note that the finger length thing (ring longer than index) is only on the right hand (at least it is on me). And it has been linked to a whole host of things (handedness, autism, heart disease, sexual orientation) that may correlate with testosterone exposure in utero. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_r...t_ratio_effectQuote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
However, to be scientific about it, the bell curves for any traits you can link to finger length overlap so much that it means obsolutely nothing about a particular individual.
Well, yeah, but it's still a fun thing to bring up over a beer ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DebW
Wow, maybe I AM athletic! Both ring fingers are longer. My whole life, I have never considered myself to be athletic in any way, so this biking thing has really surprised me. I need to stop saying I am no good at sports. :)
Oh rats, just when I was getting excited about it. Ah well...Quote:
Originally Posted by DebW
My ring finger is a good cm shorter on both hands. I guess I'm just doomed to be a klutz.
Easy there - it was a joke (as evidenced by the many smilies!!!)Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelle
However, it is a valid observation that if women were excluded under questionable circumstances it's entirely possible that someone would raise the issue. We're a litigious society. It's why I have a job.
And yes, discrimination *is* per se illegal in many contexts (e.g. sorry, we're not going to hire you because you're female). This, however, does not apply to message boards...
*going back to lurkdom now....*
I really have no problem with men on this forum if they are respectful to the obvious flavor of this forum. This is a welcoming, non-judgmental forum and that is the way it should stay. There are some forums out there that we all are aware of that are not friendly even to other males. The flavor of those forums is sarcastic, vicious and uncaring of others feelings. I do not want to see this happen to TE, but I do not believe we should bar males who want that same kind of feeling in a forum.
I compare this with my ladies rides. In my small town, there are very few group rides for men or ladies that are not hammerfests. It is a small town where the core group of racers/riders are a young crowd. We are a university town. I lead women's rides, but I have never barred men if they would like to come along. If they are good riders, I expect them to be respectful and help teach; if they are just looking for a ride where they will not be dropped and can learn, I see no reason why they can't join. I always laughingly say at the beginning of a ride to a new male rider that I don't know "if you leave your testosterone at home, you are welcome" They seem to get the idea and I have never had a problem.
I think at this point Mr Silver might be scared away from us. I like him and don't mind if he stays. He seems to know where not to go etc...
Maybe we should do a vote? we could post it and run it for a week?
I don't think he's been scared off. He reminds me of a cat. Smart, sensitive and alert. :D He's probably treading lightly on his paw pads. and he should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandi
Me too! I hated running in the army and I hate it now.Quote:
On both hands my ring finger is a full cm longer than my index finger.
I'm just waiting for my running performance to kick in
But I am seriously considering roller derby for an outlet of my suppressed aggressive/competitive energies. ;)
This is the first time I've posted in this thread, so I'll chime in on the topic.
I don't care who posts, because I have no control over it whatsoever. All I have control over is what I read. If someone who posts really gets on my nerves, I can always use the ignore feature. I have used it liberally in other forums, but not this one.
There is something different about this forum than other women-only forums. I think it's the type of woman who is attracted to this type of sport (prolly any sport) that makes a difference. They may be smarter, more mature, or less inclined to a poor-me attitude. I don't know what it is. However, I've never seen a post by someone here who was clinically depressed and neglecting her children; or someone who was in an abusive relationship and will not take the steps to get help often offered, yet posts for years and years with the same problems. Have you ever noticed that type of poster in other forums? You might know someone like that in real life.
Not here. Riding a bike is an action-oriented activity. That's what makes the forum special, I think. You can't go out and ride your bike and then live a lifestyle of learned helplessness.
So, the place is special, full of empowered people. I can't really blame anyone for wanting to be here! I also understand not being comfortable with knowing a man is reading and might respond. But that's a risk you take anyway. Might as well put myself out there as much as I am comfortable, and concentrate on things I CAN control.
Karen, trying to decide which alter-ego will take over when she straps her skates on...
That made me uneasy as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelle
I am anti-discrimination also, but I personally wouldn't hang out here if it was co-ed because it would be a different kind of thing.
I don't think there is any point in a vote, since any decisions we make would not be enforceable. The civil discussion on this thread is now our public record, and any men who come to the forum can read it and heed it and learn to tread lightly in certain areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandi
We really can't vote him off the island. :D This being a public forum and all.
Every new person changes the flavor of the forum slightly.
If Nanci hadn't joined we'd never know anything about snakes.
If Trekhawk hadn't joined, I'd have one less definition of mate.
If SK and jobob hadn't joined, there would be no Amici Veloci.
I too have wondered why Mr. Silver wanted to hang around. But it's probably the same reason anyone else hangs around. We enjoy the camaraderie and the support. Where else could I just blurt out that I am absolutely pissed that the thieves took our spare change container. How lame is that?
Anyway...I wish it would warm up to at least 40 F. This cold is not good for my knees. Yeah, that's why I'm not riding in the cold. :D It really has nothing to do with being a wuss.
V.
My (women's) bike club has an interesting policy. On our summer Wednesday night ride, it's strictly women. We've been known to ask guys who just happen to find us on the road and want to tag along to do so from a distance. During the winter, we have a Wednesday night ride that's co-ed, but men aren't allowed up front - they can't set the pace. And a few of the really kind sweeties ride sweep and keep the slowest rider (usually me!) company!Quote:
Originally Posted by spokewench
You are no wuss! There are no wusses here!Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica
Thank you everyone for being so frank (and civil!) with your comments.
My personal opinion comes from a childhood dealing with exclusion. As the only non-affluent, non-white child in my neighborhood, I felt the sting of being judged for reasons beyond my control. And to quote a great man on this special day, I am once again reminded how important it is to judge someone "by the content of their character."
This forum is so successful because it brings together something we all have in common: the love of cycling and community. It heartens me to think that although we may be of differing opinions and backgrounds, we can discuss this in a matter that may not be possible in other places.
That a man can find this place comforting is not puzzling to me in the least. In fact, if a man can put away his machismo and communicate with women in a platonic and supportive way, I am even more gratified. It gives me hope for the future.
But I doubt that many men will flock here and make this a co-ed forum. As someone mentioend before, it IS called Team Estrogen. I feel Mr Silver (or any man/woman/undecided who behaves themselves) can only enrich the conversation and growth of fellow members.
It's why I have my own practice. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_in_NC
Hmm. I thought Mr Silver's battle cry and comments about it being testosterone fueled was funny. Especially since I've been known to howl with the best of them.......:p
My middle finger is longer than my ring finger. I doubt it's genetic or even a measure of my potential... I think it just got that way by practice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Yeah - but the testosterone quip was just a way of ingratiating himself. See - it worked ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by snapdragen
And you howl so much more sweetly Snap.
I was just saying what I felt.
I thought he was being (self-)ironic. Very appropriate, except that irony is always tough to communicate in writing, even with smileys.Quote:
Originally Posted by snapdragen
Oh, and there is the "cowabunga!" cry from "Fried Green Tomatoes ..."
....is that what it is? Oh. And here I was all hung up on the apparently antiquated definition of the word 'sporting' :D ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTC
My ring finger is *significantly* longer than my index... but I have yet to see any special benefit... At least as far as biking goes... :rolleyes:
For the record, I thought his "battle cry" comment was funny too. Just shows how we women are all varied too in our thoughts and perceptions. I love the diversity of TE.Quote:
Originally Posted by snapdragen
no, no Blue,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluetree
the comparison is between the index and the ring finger, and for some reason,
even if you're lefty, only the right hand counts.
I have long ring fingers and so does DH and my two sons. One day a few months ago, I had everyone in the bike club (at a dinner) show me their fingers. It was about 50-50 and some of the little ring fingers belonged to racers. so go figure.
Wait, do we measure from the top or from the bottom? Er, I mean back of the hand or palm? Palmwise, I think my index looks longer...
Bluetree, I agree.... Wishful thinking and selective adaptation. ;)