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So just to be clear, after a family suffers a job loss or a health issue, how long would you allow them to keep their reliable late model car before you'd require them to sell it at a huge loss and replace it with a beater that will need frequent expensive repairs?
+1 on Nickeled and Dimed, so long as you remember that it's years old and things are infinitely worse now than they were when Ehrenreich wrote it.
It's such a complicated topic. There are people who truly benefit from the system and then there is abuse, too. I've been on both sides of it. I used to work for a company whose best customers were welfare moms planning purchases around their checks. Now I assist someone who it if weren't for the system would be destitute or close. I get really frustrated in that the ER is her only option for any kind or urgent care; there really is something wrong with that. I see the smart phones and $100 shoes also, and I don't know how some people do it.
This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jyyanks
I really don't know. This family is in Florida, however, I know people in NY too though their case is not as extreme. My best friend is the perfect example of someone who also receives government assistance and does not work. Her husband is the sole breadwinner but she CHOOSES to stay home with her 13 year old son who is perfectly capable of taking care of himself. She has held jobs in the past but she refuses to work now because she wants to stay home with her son! BTW, her mom runs a daycare so its not like she didnt have options for the past 13 years. I've talked to her about it but she has her reasons. At the end of the day, she's still my friend regardless of what she chooses to do but I am perplexed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
For all the bad stories, there are good stories too. I have seen families who truly need the support and who benefit from it. I just wish that there are less families taking advantage . I'm not saying that a Majority of people are taking advantage. I'm just sad that I personally know of 2-3 families.
You lie. The social worker managing the case (me a few years ago) has very limited resources to follow up on people who lie. However, many people who tell the truth get turned down for benefits because they have too many assets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
There is abuse in the system, but there are families out there that really do need the help. Some people on assistance are able to afford to smoke a pack or more of cigarettes everyday, or buy all kinds of junk food or convenience food because they don't have "time" or the skills to make real meals for their families. Food stamps can be used to buy Pepsi or Coke. People will buy cases of drinks and then literally pour the liquid out, return the bottle for the ten cent refund and use the money to buy cigarettes or beer. There should be a few changes made to the system.
The other problem is that schools get rewarded for how many kids are on free/reduced lunches via grants and aid so they don't bother to check if you qualify. That's why you see moms with SUV's getting aid. If kids were eating home lunches, the schools don't get the aid and they lose out on that money.
When it comes to daycare, the same is applied. They get government aid for letting low income families have their kids there.
It also depends on how honest the people processing the applications are. With quotas to fill it's easy to just pass them through w/o verifying the information. Some people in Omaha got in trouble for doing that recently.
Food stamps can easily be exchanged for goods which is why they have started going to a debit card of sorts. There is a work around for every government assistance program that people have figured out.
DH said the value of a car doesn't matter anymore as the rules have changed so that could also be why you have parents with SUVs getting reduced/free lunches.
Then there's the opposite end of the spectrum of where doctors/hospitals don't want anything to do with Medicare/Medicaid and fewer and fewer doctors are now. They don't get reimbursed enough to make those on it worth their time. When I was on it for a short time years ago my neurologist said he wouldn't take me anymore and I was on my own for meds. Depakote was 220 a month w/o insurance. I took it every other day to make it last longer. The doctor that was going to deliver my baby didn't want me as well. Thankfully DH got a better job with insurance and it all worked out. Even with insurance, I continued to take my medication every other day which really defeats the purpose of having it in the first place as I wasn't seizure free during that time.
The system is flawed but it's what we have. There is no easy fix to it.
All of my clients are on most of the benefits mentioned. While I don't agree with some of the choices they make in spending their money, it was heartbreaking for me and a colleague to bring an emergency food ration to one of them, who has a family of 6 kids. This is an example of how a family can spiral downward. They are married. Kids are well spaced, but all have some kind of learning or behavioral issue. Mom and dad are former addicts, but have been clean for 20+ years. Both had well paying jobs, despite lack of education. Dad was arrested for a trumped up child sexual abuse charge, stemming from when he was 20 and the girl was 16, about 6 years ago. They lost their section 8 house in a decent suburb, kids were removed from the home. They had to move to a local city, in a dangerous neighborhood. The kids came back quickly, but dad had to work under the table. A couple of years ago, he got hurt, and of course with no recourse, since it was under the table, he had to sue his employer. They are living on disability benefits (his, hers, and one of the kids).There is never enough food, and mom volunteers at the food pantry to get help above the EBT card. Exercise is on my client's treatment plan; that is how some people get a free or reduced payment for the Y. The government does not pay, the Y gives scholarships.
I thank G-d I live in Massachusetts. These people have good medical care, many going to the same doctors I brought my own kids to. The dental and eye benefits stink, but they deal with it. I wouldn't have my job without our health care system here; my position is based on 90% part of the health care initiative.
Some of those people driving around in fancy cars get their money from drug deals. There's a whole economy based on selling EBT cards. Yes, there is abuse, but generally most of these people are honest and living in a way none of us would wish for.
As for medical care, this is one area I was truly grateful when I was unemployed: generally speaking, the employed and unemployed Canadians, can visit the doctor and get treatment in Canada.
You do need to have health card which you cannot apply unless you show proof of permanent address in Canada, have a social insurance number (which requires proof of residency/citizenship), etc.
What people are forgetting, is that there is a large group of unemployed (the majority probably), who still pay taxes to the govn't annually, as they should like everyone else.
I had no guilt to use any of the government services: I was paying taxes faithfully to the authorities. My taxes provide services....should I ever need to use them which I did need them.
Shootingstar, let's not even go there - the vast difference in US and Canadian health systems....
Yes, thank you for pointing that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
Here's some commentary from Ehrenreich from 2011 about the worsening of the problems.
Bethany, you don't honestly believe that schools encourage families to get free/reduced lunch to get money for curriculum? First of all, the federal government gives that Title 1 and other money to schools based on the number of low income kids. Since low income kids generally live in areas that don't have the $ to support the schools through taxes, this money is being used as intended; for extra support in reading and math skills to close the learning gap that often exists for these kids. It is not the schools' job to report "lies," generally they take that documentation for what it's worth. The Department of Transitional Assistance (what used to be called welfare) are usually the ones who catch fraud, at least in my state.
The sorry fact is that all kids deserve an excellent education and this is one small way that bridges the gap. It doesn't come close to what is needed, which is a totally different way of funding public education, not entirely based on property values. I'm sorry that you've had some not so nice experiences with "the system," and I know this happens, but this one, cannot be blamed on the public schools. Other agencies, maybe.
I hate to get in on this one but a lot of it is crazy.
I have been looking for a new house to rent while we continue to save to buy(we are in an apartment right now and would really like a backyard for the dogs, so they aren't confined to only leashed walks daily) and I have had 2 houses where I have gone and the person seeing it before me walks out, asks if they take section 8- landlord says yes- they take it. Now these are houses renting for $1100 a month in decent neighborhoods. I work hard for my money and it is frustrating.
Why is it frustrating? DF's grandparents are renting their house out currently and they have a section 8 tenant- the tenant pays them $200 a month and the government pays them $800.
Something seems very off there to me- why are we paying that much in assistance for housing?
I also know someone who went onto food stamps for her and her 3 kids after bankruptcy and a messy divorce(she wasn't very good at sticking to a job or wanting to work certain jobs). But then, she would go to whole foods and buy artisan cheeses,etc. with the food stamps and continued to drive a new SUV.
And don't get me started on my thoughts of people who can't afford kids but have them knowing they can obtain government assistance to raise them. I am a big believer in if you can't afford it- don't have it(let it be kids, a tv, clothes,etc.)
I do though, feel for those who had jobs etc, and became laid off and are then struggling- as long as some one is actively searching to become employed again- then I say yes to assistance.
You don't know what that section 8 person's financial situation is like. You also don't know if they own the car outright from before or what.
My disabled family member that I help gets 900 a month, period. You try buying food, paying utilities and rent on that. Never mind a bus pass, a bag of food for your pet, and a few other non-necessities that aren't luxuries. Rent, $500 a month ( and that's low income housing) and utils can top $150 in winter.
I'm also hesitant to get in on this conversation. While I agree with most of the comments, I would dare say that there are HUGE problems here in Maine. I don't want to assume that everyone is cheating the system, but I do know that it happens alot here. It seems that there are some who will check online to see which states offer the most assistance and then they move there. I've known a few people that have done just that... all of them so that they didn't have to work. They drove nicer cars than I do, had a big screen tv, a cell phone which was paid for by the state... and I could go on and on. Their children were old enough to leave home...
I've also seen many people that NEED this assistance and they don't qualify, and of course that's another issue all in itself. In the past few years, many people have found that they could move to the New England states and live here fairly well. It has happened time and again, especially in towns where there was some sort of industry that had closed down. I'm not sure what that has to do with people moving there, but it has happened time and again.
Lastly, there is a huge problem in this county with housing. Most landlords would rather accept section 8 applicants more than anyone else... Those same landlords also seem to know how to qualify for federal assistance for updates on these buildings. I'm not sure where their monthly money goes, as the buildings are very old and have no mortgage!There was a sad case last week in a town close to me, where this building had received LOTS of work paid for by taxpayers over the past two years. The windows were not installed to code, and a two year old figured out how to open the window and fell out!(from three stories) Luckily, she landed in a snowbank and had no major injuries.
Anyway, this is a very sensitive subject for me.... but it's something that our government definitely needs to look into and make some MAJOR adjestments.