Cyclists cause 10% of car-bike accidents

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

The most common type of crash in this study involved a motorist entering an intersection and either failing to stop properly or proceeding before it was safe to do so. The second most common crash type involved a motorist overtaking unsafely. The third involved a motorist opening a door onto an oncoming cyclist.

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Instructors I know would tell you that in the first and third cases especially, the cyclists involved had a responsibility to ride more defensively (and thus lowering the likelihood of a crash), by 1) making sure other road users were not entering an intersection at the same time (bikes being a bit easier to stop than cars), 2) taking the lane, weaving a bit if necessary to make oneself more visible, and 3) STAY OUT OF THE DOOR ZONE!!

Yeah, the League teaches us that we are often our own worst enemies. That doesn't even begin to address those who use bicycles by riding on the sidewalks, against traffic, etc.

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Originally Posted by redrhodie

Me. I was hit by a car door when I was 14. I think it was as much my fault as the lady who opened the door. She should have looked, and I shouldn't have been riding in the door zone. I take half the responsibility.

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While indeed you should not ride in the door zone, in this state at least, it is entirely the responsibility of the person in the vehicle to be sure no one will hit their door when they open it. (this is not limited to cyclists - if you open your car door into another car is would be the same). Some of our cycling "facilities", bike lanes and the like around here will actually put you squarely in the door zone if you choose to use them...... fortunately in this state it is a choice - we are not required to use bike lanes when they are present.

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Originally Posted by Eden

While indeed you should not ride in the door zone, in this state at least, it is entirely the responsibility of the person in the vehicle to be sure no one will hit their door when they open it. (this is not limited to cyclists - if you open your car door into another car is would be the same). Some of our cycling "facilities", bike lanes and the like around here will actually put you squarely in the door zone if you choose to use them...... fortunately in this state it is a choice - we are not required to use bike lanes when they are present.

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Oh, yeah, legally she was to blame. She paid my medical expenses. I'm speaking more of the it's my job as a cyclist to avoid every crash or I'm to blame theory I ride by. There would be very few crashes where I wouldn't feel somewhat responsible since it's my job to ride in a way that I don't get hit. Techniques explained in "The Art of Urban Cycling" by Robert Hurst. The book is somewhat controversial, just so you know, definitely not for everyone, but I'm a believer.

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Originally Posted by redrhodie

Oh, yeah, legally she was to blame. She paid my medical expenses. I'm speaking more of the it's my job as a cyclist to avoid every crash or I'm to blame theory I ride by. There would be very few crashes where I wouldn't feel somewhat responsible since it's my job to ride in a way that I don't get hit. Techniques explained in "The Art of Urban Cycling" by Robert Hurst. The book is somewhat controversial, just so you know, definitely not for everyone, but I'm a believer.

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Hmmmmm - I'm not willing to take any responsibility for the person who hit me... She was not paying attention, she failed to yield, she was driving without insurance. I'm not going to give her any outs. I wasn't severely hurt or killed because I was paying attention and I was, if not able to totally avoid the collision, at least able to mitigate the consequences. What should I be expected to do - stop and wait on a green light if someone because someone is going to make a left and might not be bothered to look and see anything that is not a car.... I think that we are waaaaaaay to lax with drivers in this country. We are so enamored with car culture that we don't accept that drivers have EXTRA responsibility to safely pilot the dangerous vehicles that they have been give the privilege of being licensed for. I use my bicycle quite vehicularly - I don't do things that are dangerous just to please motorists and believe you me I recognize my own vulnerability, but I am not willing to give motorists a pass just because they are bigger. It's like excusing the kid on the playground who punches another kid by saying he can't help himself and its better to just stay out of his way.....

I'm a bit too tired to respond well to this thread tonight;
but Marybee, we're not talking about Bikes wiping out alone, we're specifically talking about bike/car crashes.

So you can take your 50% biker's fault study somewhere else, it does not apply specifically to this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Eden

Hmmmmm - I'm not willing to take any responsibility for the person who hit me... She was not paying attention, she failed to yield, she was driving without insurance. I'm not going to give her any outs. I wasn't severely hurt or killed because I was paying attention and I was if not able to totally avoid the collision at least able to mitigate the consequences. I think that we are waaaaaaay to lax with drivers in this country. We are so enamored with car culture that we don't accept that drivers have EXTRA responsibility to safely pilot the dangerous vehicles that they have been give the privilege of being licensed for. I use my bicycle quite vehicularly - I don't do things that are dangerous just to please motorists and believe you me I recognize my own vulnerability, but I am not willing to give motorists a pass just because they are bigger. It's like excusing the kid on the playground who punches another kid by saying he can't help himself and its better to just stay out of his way.....

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Oh, no, I don't think bad drivers should be given a pass at all. That's not what I'm saying. Just since we are not in control of how anyone else is driving or riding, we must take extra care of ourselves. Sometimes that means giving up your right of way. Maybe that is giving the car a pass, but I see it as giving myself the security of getting where I want to go in one piece. I see it as outsmarting the bully.

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Originally Posted by redrhodie

Oh, no, I don't think bad drivers should be given a pass at all. That's not what I'm saying. Just since we are not in control of how anyone else is driving or riding, we must take extra care of ourselves. Sometimes that means giving up your right of way. Maybe that is giving the car a pass, but I see it as giving myself the security of getting where I want to go in one piece. I see it as outsmarting the bully.

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She made a left across my path after I had already entered the intersection.... it was pretty cut and dry that she did something that she should not have. I do believe in being alert and keeping a close eye on other traffic and its kept me from having any serious interactions with cars for 25+ years until just two months ago. Yes, you cannot control the way others drive, and I do believe that you can do a great deal to keep yourself safe but I also think its completely bogus to just say oh well I'm small and vulnerable, if someone hits me I should just accept that it was my fault for being there. NO - it was not my fault - roads have never been the exclusive province of the motor vehicle and motorists need to accept much more responsibility than they do. They are the ones who have the most capacity to cause harm, so they should bear the most responsibility to conduct themselves safely. Just because that is not what actually does happen doesn't mean that it should not be that way, nor does it mean that we should not work towards it actually happening. Yes, I totally believe in never trust a driver and always be alert and ready to react, put your own safety before anything else, but I am not willing to blame cyclists for collisions that I think cars are responsible for just because they are smaller and more vulnerable and I'm not willing to say well this is the way it is and it just can't change, so accept it. I want change - I want laws that mean more driver responsibility - I want laws that remove licensing from poor drivers.

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

I'm a bit too tired to respond well to this thread tonight;
but Marybee, we're not talking about Bikes wiping out alone, we're specifically talking about bike/car crashes.

So you can take your 50% biker's fault study somewhere else, it does not apply specifically to this conversation.

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I think you need a nap. :)

Pardon me for saying so, but your post here seems a bit harsher than you probably intend. I think that her post is much more on point than many "thread drift" incidents I see around here.

Disagree, sure, but the tone of this response is a little uncalled for.

I think that the main point of marybee's post is more than valid. I mean, really, how many times do you shake your head at the boneheaded move some idiot on a bike pulls? I do it all the time. Most of the time I'm angry because the putz is reinforcing negative stereotypes... but just as often I'm shaking my head at unnecessary risks that I'm convinced will get the jackass killed. Or paralyzed.

We can't hit the streets knowing that 90% of the time it's someone else's fault. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. We have to continue to ride as if everyone buffered behind a steel cage doesn't see us and doesn't care about hitting us.

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Originally Posted by Eden

She made a left across my path after I had already entered the intersection.... it was pretty cut and dry that she did something that she should not have. I do believe in being alert and keeping a close eye on other traffic and its kept me from having any serious interactions with cars for 25+ years until just two months ago. Yes, you cannot control the way others drive, and I do believe that you can do a great deal to keep yourself safe but I also think its completely bogus to just say oh well I'm small and vulnerable, if someone hits me I should just accept that it was my fault for being there. NO - it was not my fault - roads have never been the exclusive province of the motor vehicle and motorists need to accept much more responsibility than they do. They are the ones who have the most capacity to cause harm, so they should bear the most responsibility to conduct themselves safely. Just because that is not what actually does happen doesn't mean that it should not be that way, nor does it mean that we should not work towards it actually happening. Yes, I totally believe in never trust a driver and always be alert and ready to react, put your own safety before anything else, but I am not willing to blame cyclists for collisions that I think cars are responsible for just because they are smaller and more vulnerable and I'm not willing to say well this is the way it is and it just can't change, so accept it. I want change - I want laws that mean more driver responsibility - I want laws that remove licensing from poor drivers.

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I'm really sorry. I was not saying you were at all at fault for your accident, and I apologize if it read that way. That was honestly not my intention, and I'm sincerely sorry. I was speaking of my own personal views of the way I ride, which is as the survivor of a crash who never wants to go through that again (and whose views have been shaped by the Hurst book). Of course there are accidents that are totally the fault of the driver (arguably mine, though I don't feel that way myself). Yours sounds like one, but my accident could have easily been avoided if I had been riding out of the door zone.

"I also think its completely bogus to just say oh well I'm small and vulnerable, if someone hits me I should just accept that it was my fault for being there." This is not my opinion.

My point was I try to ride in a way to avoid the crash to begin with. I am not saying to accept the crash as my fault for just for being there, but if there was obviously something I could have done differently to avoid getting hit to begin with, then that I would regret. I'm probably not explaining myself very well. I'm trying to make Robert Hurst's arguments, but I'm obviously lacking his writing skills.

Again, Eden, I didn't mean to offend you.

I'm not offended, I don't disagree with the heart of your argument, I just think its more of a two way street. I also haven't taken your remarks personally - I just have wanted to stress the fact that I really feel that there was nothing I could have done. I honestly think that more cyclist/car crashes are like mine than are ones that could have been avoided and I really think that ones truly caused by the cyclist are the rarity - 10% as the study indicated sounds right to me. I think it leaves motorists an easy out to say well cyclists are more vulnerable and we should be careful.

Of course we all need to think of ourselves and take every care to remain safe- but at the same time we really need to hold motorist highly accountable for their actions. And I'm not just talking about cyclists - pedestrians and other innocent motorists suffer too and we as a society don't take it as seriously as I think we need to. I really think that negligent, distracted driving is a problem (cell phone driving has been proven to be more dangerous than drunken driving!!) and we fail to remove these people from our roads. We had a driver (on a phone) kill a pedestrian in a cross walk here when he ran a red light - he had multiple, multiple, multiple moving violations and had already hit a cyclist head on because he had drifted onto the wrong side of the road. He STILL has not had his license permanently revoked. This is WRONG. I think we are way too lax and way too willing to blame anyone but the driver when collisions occur.

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

I'm a bit too tired to respond well to this thread tonight;
but Marybee, we're not talking about Bikes wiping out alone, we're specifically talking about bike/car crashes.

So you can take your 50% biker's fault study somewhere else, it does not apply specifically to this conversation.

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MRRRRRAAEEEOOOWWWWWW!

:D

Seriously, the only reason I mention that is that there are many reasons cyclists crash. Some are related to cars, others are not. I hear so much ... dare I say it?.. whining on the part of cyclists. It bothers me. Because whine all you want about car drivers, the BEST way to protect yourself on the road is to become a safer, more aware, pro-active, visible and smart cyclist. All the whining in the world is not going to change the behavior of car drivers. The only thing YOU can change is YOURSELF. That seems so obvious to me.
Given a choice of legally being next to a parked car and getting doored, or pulling out a few feet and not getting doored, I'll take a latter option any time. The satisfaction of pointing fingers does not outweigh the pain of recovery from a crash.
OK, let the flaming begin.

A 12-year-old policy statement from the Federal Highway Administration:

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A crash is not an accident.

Changing the way we think about events and the words we use to describe them affects the way we behave. Motor vehicle crashes occur "when a link or several links in the chain" are broken. Continued use of the word "accident" implies that these events are outside human influence or control. In reality, they are predictable results of specific actions.

Since we can identify the causes of crashes, we can take action to alter the effect and avoid collisions. These are not Acts of God but predictable results of the laws of physics.

The concept of "accident" works against bringing all appropriate resources to bear on the enormous problem of highway collisions. Use of "accident" fosters the idea that the resulting damage and injuries are unavoidable.

"Crash," "collision," and "injury" are more appropriate terms, and we encourage their use as substitutes for "accident."

Along with the Department's Research and Special Programs Administration, the Federal Highway Administration has joined the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in declaring that the word "accident" will no longer be used in materials we publish, in speeches or other statements, or in communications with the media and others.

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Or, more colloquially, the old rhyme supposedly appearing on a tombstone:

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Here lies the body of Jonathan Day,
Who died protecting his right-of-way.
He was dead right as he rolled along.
He's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

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Originally Posted by marybee

OK, let the flaming begin.

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Have you read anything I've said...... after all that now, I do actually find your smug attitude pretty sickening. Have you ever been hit by a car? Do you think it was your fault?

Doorings, while preventable certainly do not account for the majority of bike/car collisions. While we very much do need to take care of ourselves and work to be as safe and visible as possible, we also need to never let go of holding motorists accountable for their actions. This country is very much in love with the automobile and we allow far more leeway than we ever should about allowing dangerous people to continue driving. People like you who give motorists an excuse when they kill and maim other road users are part of the problem.

I apologize to all for my bad attitude yesterday. I feel better this morning, thank you. :p

HOWEVER, I posted this article for a very important reason. There is a very strange phenomenon that occurs EVERY SINGLE TIME someone is KILLED by a car/bike accident and subsequently reported in the news. Immediately following one of these deaths is a host of letters to the editor AND on line forums that say "Cyclists should obey the law; etc, ad nauseum" This broadsides me every single time and puts me on the defense. While in fact, many of the cyclists I've known that were killed were SAFETY ACTIVISTS and were the last people I could imagine blowing red lights and all the other things that bad cyclists do. and sure, there's a possibility that they had a momentary lapse, but it's 90% more likely that it was the motorist!
I was happy to find that there was some scientific evidence that backs this up.


This is why I was surprised to hear all this other junk from you guys.
carry on.
and Thanks EDEN for taking the torch. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

HOWEVER, I posted this article for a very important reason. There is a very strange phenomenon that occurs EVERY SINGLE TIME someone is KILLED by a car/bike accident and subsequently reported in the news. Immediately following one of these deaths is a host of letters to the editor AND on line forums that say "Cyclists should obey the law; etc, ad nauseum" This broadsides me every single time and puts me on the defense. While in fact, many of the cyclists I've known that were killed were SAFETY ACTIVISTS and were the last people I could imagine blowing red lights and all the other things that bad cyclists do. and sure, there's a possibility that they had a momentary lapse, but it's 90% more likely that it was the motorist!

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That's an excellent point, and it explains your sensitivity. ;) The problem here is that you're preaching to the choir. Which leaves the question: How do we promote this information into the greater community?