Gender and pro cycling

singletrackmind "Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?"

Funny, I wasn't thinking of aggresision at all I was thinking of spatial sense. My ex partner, a very butch gal which is very different from FTM she had no gender identity issues at all whatsoever so this is off-the-off-the-subject but she used to kid me "no, you're not butch at all, don't kid yourself, you have no spatial sense".

That's true, faced for example with a small car trunk and multiple suitcases I'm at a total loss. On the other hand I have a photo somewhere (one I haven't torn up jk) of her in front of her PT crusiser trunk with about 4 people's stuff neatly fit.

I don't think you can generalise about even this: plenty of women architects, engineers, in construction these days and we know that the lack of them in the past had to do with prejuidice in the fields not a lack of spatial sense.

But do men see space differently, "can I ride between that rock and the tree?"

this is a great discussion! way to go TE forum!! :D

okay, so first, about spatial sense. I am no engineer or architect (maybe I should have been?) but I used to pack our 2 door tracker after a trip to vancouver with all our bedding and overpacking, for the return trip home after shopping at IKEA and Costco. DH calls me the packing queen... The point I make here is - if being able to pack tons of stuff into a small space is spatial sense, I've got it in spades!!

however, on the bike, it took *years* for me to gain the ability to see the "lines" the guys see, to feel comfortable pulling a wheelie (still not good at it), to feel no fear flinging myself through a rough patch or a steep area (and that's still not as often as the guys do). I've always attributed this primarily to my lack of history on the bike. As a kid I didn't get the opportunity to ride my bike as often or in the same conditions as the boys (seriously, I was forbidden from riding it in the trees!!) I've often said that we women mostly are just not as used to having something between our legs :eek: :)

I'm not arguing that Michelle shouldn't have the right to race, I think she's cool and am impressed with her results. (and love that she's wearing a jersey from the shop where DH bought his bike, probably the same shop that will finally fit my road bike for me in a few weeks) Racing at that level takes many many attributes, tons of work and a determination that I'll never have. I think I'm just trying to understand that concept of "man eyes", and whatever else people might complain about.

The article had a lot of references to her boyhood, the amount of time she spent on her bike, the type of riding she did as a boy...I think that's an advantage for her. But it's not something that a girl couldn't have done, so it really has nothing to do with the issue, right? I've known young girls who are out there just as much as the neighbourhood boys, so, just because I missed out on making fearless biking as natural as breathing, doesn't mean that all women would have to.

By the way, thank you to Melody and Spazzdog for enlightening me. I've learned a lot more about people who have undergone this transition. It makes it much easier to understand. :)

Namaste,
~T~

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Originally Posted by spazzdog

I just read a very interesting article in the June issue of Bike magazine called Venus Envy

The article really bothered me. Its seems a transgender woman (M->female) took up mtn biking. She got really good, started competing as an amateur, then as a pro. Some pro women protested her right to compete (not when she was amatuer, and only when growing talent threatened their podium finishes), she was suspended. Reinstated by Canada's IOC and other governing bodies she still gets dissed when she podiums.

*snip*

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I dunno ... am I the only one who's wondering if this is really fair? How often do people beat the pros in the very first year they compete? Especially people who smoke?? I absolutely agree that hormones can do a number on you -- anyone who's taken hormonal birth control methods must know that -- but on some level, she still has her old body. She still has the same brain. If her heart and lungs were bigger than a woman's before surgery, I seriously doubt they shrank; I don't think it works like that (but I'm no expert).

Then again ... as the article points out, there's plenty of confusion about what sex really means. (As I understand it, one can identify oneself as female in gender while still having male body parts, or vice versa; "sex" is another matter.) We'd like to think that male and female are the only choices, but there are grey areas, like people who've always thought they were women because of outward appearances but are physically male on the inside. And then there are people who are physically simply predisposed to being better at certain things. Certainly a tall person has an advantage in volleyball; a lean person has an advantage in long-distance cycling; every sport has its key characteristics. Some sports even have weight classes. So I guess the question is, what does the governing body consider "fair enough" for a given sport.

I've even wondered if women shouldn't compete against men, in general ... I don't know that women would ever close the gap, but I think they'd narrow it considerably. I've seen what happens when individual women are forced to compete against men; they get better. It's just a human thing; once one person breaks a record, others swiftly follow. That being said, if everyone were competing together, women athletes would almost certainly get even less support than they get now. Maybe women as professional athletes would just disappear. So that's pointless.

So where was I? Oh, right. If I think any one thing about all this, it's that it hilights the fact that we never compete on an even field. The question is, what boundaries will we set on the spread of the field? It's clear that Michelle would be at a disadvantage competing against pro men; the question is, is she at an unfair advantage competing against pro women? I don't know that medical science has done enough studies of TG women to answer that question.

Bounce, though I understand your wondering at the "fairness" of it and at the concept of "level playing fields", I'd ask you to consider this:

Michelle, the cyclist under discussion, is a big woman... 5'10" or 5'11", 180 lbs and extremely athletic. She is lesser is stature, due to the female hormones, than she was as a male. I would ask that you look at a few of our U.S. collegiate womens basketball teams. Women of equal size and athletic prowess, though in a different sport. I'm guessing that their heart and lung capicity is probably comparable due to their lives playing in a sport also dominated by men... meaning they created their level playing field by raising their game.

I firmly believe that, given the talent and the willingness to dedicate oneself to a sport, a woman has as much of an opportunity to be as good as any guy.
That is not to say we women will necessarily make the same money... but we can be as good. It's society at large that continues to place our monetary worth as "less than".

Another athlete... a male, wanted to be on the national synchronized swimming team. He got so much crap. I can't remember the outcome, but I heard about it and said "more power to him". We should be free to pursue our passions... sport is a free expression and should be free of gender limitations, discrimations and preferencial treatment.

God knows if, at 50 yrs of age, I suddenly popped up with enough talent (due to hard work) to be competitive on the amateur road racing circuit, questions would be asked, accusations made. It's sad really.

As to Michelle's perceived advantage in the womens field, I'm with Missy Giove. I believe her quote was "Quit bi#$ing and get off the brakes!"

spazz - hoping she made sense with that tome of blather

I have to buy the magazine and read the article. My interest has been piqued. Thanks for posting this spazz!

Susan

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Originally Posted by spazzdog

God knows if, at 50 yrs of age, I suddenly popped up with enough talent (due to hard work) to be competitive on the amateur road racing circuit, questions would be asked, accusations made. It's sad really.

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Any time something goes outside of what most consider "the norm" eyebrows shoot up, questions start being asked and acusations levelled. Look at what's happened in road cycling with all of the acusations against Lance and others. "How can a man who once had cancer ..." :|

The question of how fair a competition is always comes up. I too agree that women, if they put their mind to it, can do anything a guy can, but it comes to a question of will power. Unfortunately, society doesn't help us in that regard.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step-daughter Alex a few years ago. She was over visiting and telling me that she doesn't think she wants to go into science or math. Understand that Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math.

Needless to say, I was livid. If I was anywhere near where her school I would have reamed him. To tell someone something like this is just wrong.

I told Alex that she could do anything that she had the willpower to accomplish. That things could be difficult, but achieving the goal is that much sweeter because of the struggle.

Unfortunately, the world isn't fair. The best thing we can do is try to make the most of what we're given. Think of those who've gotten cancer and beat it or some other disease such as MS or diabetes and fight and struggle to make the most of their lives instead of laying down and saying "it's not worth it."

We have within ourselves to be the best we can be, if we're willing. :)

Mel

Thanks for posting those links singletrack - interesting reading. Would be interested to read the article in Bike magazine too. Kudos to Ms Dumaresq - it's not like there are a whole lot of transgendered people out there providing role-models in sports.

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Originally Posted by Melody

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step-daughter Alex a few years ago. She was over visiting and telling me that she doesn't think she wants to go into science or math. Understand that Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math.

Needless to say, I was livid. If I was anywhere near where her school I would have reamed him. To tell someone something like this is just wrong.

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:mad: I'll go kick his arse myself. Or perhaps I'll roll up my science degree and use that to knock some sense into the idiot... How could a teacher say that to a student?!? Might have to roll up my teaching diploma and put it in the other hand... :mad:


Total aside:
Hey there MM. I'd forgotten you were from Brighton. Was in your neck of the woods on bank holiday. Not bad (except for the bit where I forgot to bring the sunscreen).

Melody posts "Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math."

This is outrageous, he needs to find another line of work one that has no contact with kids.

A woman I know who is a scientist was once told by her college counselor "you should major in chemistry, it's more like cooking" :mad:

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Originally Posted by Trek420

A woman I know who is a scientist was once told by her college counselor "you should major in chemistry, it's more like cooking" :mad:

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GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :mad: :mad:

People should be allowed to do what ever they want to do. If a girl wants to be a coal miner or a lumberjack for example then let her.

However, I think there's different jobs that men and women are better at. I've been doing a lot of job seeking lately and 95 % of the peolpe I've come across working for recruitment agencies, have been women. These are commission based jobs so a lot of them work very hard and are very motivated, but helping people find a job / career calls for a lot of the skills that women are good at - listening, having empathy and being good at talking! :)

As this thread is all about tolerance and acceptance I'm not going to start 'boy bashing'. They're great too.... most of the time ;) :p



O/T
Hi tlkiwi - yeh, last Monday was great - v.sunny. Are you over here for work or for hols?

Idealist that I am, I think its more than tolerance... its acceptance.

I mean, I tolerate bad weather, office dress codes, traffic jams but I can't say I accept them. I can't stand any of them.

People however I try to accept. With all their differences. I've always believed that no one is superior because of gender, race, religion, political affiliation, etc. I believe we each are more in control of our future than we realize sometimes.

A woman, a man, a woman that used to be a man, or vice versa, society pushes the "gender" thing. If everyone said "phhhhuuttt" to that, it would be great. Put babies in whatever color they look cute in, or when they are old enough whatever they like. I'm always confused by the desparation sometimes exhibited by parents to "be certain" people know the gender of the new baby (blue for boys, pink for girls). It's new, it's chubby, it has hair or it doesn't, its cute... when I'm gootchie-gooing all over the little punkin heads I certainly don't care if its a boy or girl. Course, I'd probably let them choose their own name when they got old enough.

I know... I'm odd. A very dear friend of mine who is oh so very astral/astrological/metaphysical based told me once I wasn't from this planet. That this was my first life on earth. Sometimes I think she was right...

:cool: spazz

spazz, you and I have more in common than I realized! I mean, I've been called (and calling myself) spaz, for many years, but this whole tolerance vs. acceptance thing is something I thought only I had noticed. Just talked about it with another friend last weekend. It was the first she'd thought about it too.

I have learned, as I get older, I am less tolerant of the rednecks that live around here and all the judgemental mumbo-jumbo that goes with them (yes, I realize the irony of that, and I've come to accept it in myself). I also have noticed that I am more accepting of different ways of thinking, different lifestyles, different sexual orientation, etc, as long as I see evidence that a person is truly trying to find themselves and their true beliefs, etc, I have a lot of respect for them.

Life is irony. I spend each day learning to accept that all over again.

:D

you rock, spazz! ever find yourself in British Columbia??

namaste,
~T~

Thanks LBTC! I was hesitant at first when I started this thread. I really appreciate everyone's involvement and responses.

As to B.C. - uh, where would you be; east or west Canada? I'm so very geographically challenged.

I've not been out of the U.S except once... Vancouver in 1990 for the Gay Games.

spazz

:o Vancouver is in BC. I'll be there in two weeks to visit a friend. :D I'm a 5 hour north/east drive from there....
and we don't get nearly as much rain here! :D

here's to acceptance! :p

Namaste,
~T~

http://www.boston.com/news/education...draw_fire?pg=2

The president of Harvard University, Lawrence H. Summers, drew a lot of criticism when he made the comment that innate differences between men and women might be one reason fewer women succeed in science and math careers. The above link is page 2 and contains the worst of what he said. He says he was misunderstood.

Maybe the science teacher picked up on what he had to say and decided then and forever after, girls just can't do science. I know a few news stations were treating it as gospel before critics bashed it but good. The damage a few words can do is frightening. :mad:

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Originally Posted by spazzdog

I know... I'm odd. A very dear friend of mine who is oh so very astral/astrological/metaphysical based told me once I wasn't from this planet. That this was my first life on earth. Sometimes I think she was right... :cool: spazz

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Not that odd, I had a friend tell me the same thing! Maybe we're from the same planet? :D