Ladies, women, girls....

:(

Oh dear, I guess I've probably been offending everyone right and left. I call people dude (male AND female), chick, chickie, chickadee (from my mom), girl, girlie, lady, without thought. I never call them that in a derogatory way (why? is it derogatory? I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said).

I mean, heck, if I'm going to try to insult someone by using a name, I'm gonna use one a lot more powerful than lady....

Now, it does bug me when men refer to women as girls sometimes (and I clarify this with sometimes, because I don't mind if The Boy asks me if I'm hanging out with 'the girls'... woops there I go, referring to a Man as a Boy). When a man uses the word girl dismissively it's got a completely different feel to it.

I apologize to everyone in this forum I've said 'you go girl' to! :o

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Originally Posted by Kimmyt

I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said.

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I do think it has a lot to do with context and culture. Personally, I wouldn't call someone I didn't know very well by any diminutive (nickname, variation of 'girl', whatever) but in my own personal circle I call my friends by many names.

And yeah, I seem to recall shouting "you go girl!" to my TV screen during movies...sporting events...speeches...the evening news...:D I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere, coined that phrase and it has become part of our modern verbal heritage, so to speak. Kind of like a cliche...something that everyone recognizes...I could be wrong, though.

I think it's situational. Most groups of women refer to themselves as 'girls' in social situations. We Southerners use lady rather interchangably.

Several years ago a group of us girls were on the gulf and took a morning fishing trip. The captain referred to us as girls and then quickly back-pedaled, not wishing to offend. I laughed and told him we were old enough to appreciate being called girls since we really weren't anymore.

I definitely prefer "women", and cringe if someone says "ladies". I grew up with a mother telling me to "be lady-like" and to "walk like a lady" and those things just never fit me. To me, a lady is a stereotype that I have no interest in emulating and couldn't if I tried. But as others have said, it's often situational or cultural, so I usually just let it roll off me.

I think that the use of women vs girls in many cases really implies an underlying attitude. When I was in college on the east coast in the 70s, female students were universally referred to by administration/faculty/peers as women and treated as adults. Where my sister went to college in the midwest, they were referred to as girls and treated more like children in need of supervision/protection.

Well, I guess I'm with Kimmy and am very good at using the wrong words inadvertently. In the situation KG described, I would probably have used the word girl more than anything. I can picture myself shouting encouragement in the form of go, girl, go. But when talking about them, I would more likely be saying "look at her go" "she looks strong" "she's reeling him in" "isn't she in the lead?" etc. Yes, it seems I use more pronouns than nouns. Perhaps I am instinctively avoiding the whole dilemma of woman vs lady, neither of which I like the sounds of. Oh, yes, I have definitely been known to use the words, chick, dudette, chica and babe to describe women, specifically athletes that I see or know, but generally I keep these terms close - talking with DH, or close girlfriends.

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

Foreign languages have their own nuances, too... I remember that in German, the proper reference is Frau (plural Frauen) or Fraulein, occasionally Dame or Damen (plural). (hint, the feminine restroom is labelled Damen, good for a joke or two with the new guys who can't tell the difference betwen "da Men" and "Herren" (which is how the little boys' room is labeled, btw.) but that's a whole 'nother story.) Using the term for female, weib, or weibliche, is considered derogatory in polite circles, and is usually refereing to livestock.

But then again in gender non-specific circles, I confess that I'm one of those who typically refers to everyone as "guys," regardless of age or gender.

Tom

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

It peeves me when I hear "ladies" and "men"
They are not a match. If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

It should be women and men, its simple, its honest and carries no preconceptions or possible offence...

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Yep.

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Originally Posted by PscyclePath

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

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Great, as long as men are always considered and called gentlemen until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise, and even then they are given the benefit of the doubt, and the STANDARDS for judging who is a gentlemen and who is a lady are EXACTLY THE SAME. In my experience, this isn't what happens out there.

And then, I also agree with everyone who writes about all the context stuff that happens when women are together in more intimate groups...friends, obviously relaxed social situations, etc. I guess I go both ways. Do I care if a woman I'm cycling with screams You Go Girl at me? No! :) Do I care if some idiot man decides I am not worthy to be called a Lady if I do something that doesn't live up to his standard of what feminine social behavior should look like? Well, I might not care about his opinion, if that's the kind of man he is, but I do care that women still have to buck double standards.

Edited to add: As Zen said on a different thread, this is one of those discussions I would enjoy more without male participation. I care about hearing what the women of TE would like to be called. I'm tired of hearing about what men think women ought to be called.

I grew up in the 60's where suddenly women were not to be referred to as girls, and the word; ladies was rather stilted, so i would become rather unhappy if i was called the wrong thing.

fast forward; now I've gone to Italy where all the older women are calling each other "girls" (ragazze) and men actually call themselves boys (ragazzi) and i am thinking, why am i getting so uptight about this?

so i'm not anymore. I don't like being called "one of the guys" either, but girl, lady, woman. it's all cool. I'm obviously no girl, but if my (at that time) 80 year old aunt can be a girl, so can I.

and i can go ballistic when at a nice restaurant the wait person says to me referring to my lovely meal "Are you still WORKING on this?"

Oh my, I didn't mean to imply that I was offended by someone here saying "Go, girl!" :p

Among friends (you're all friends :D ) it's fine, but precisely because it does imply familiarity I don't appreciate it in a work setting with someone I'm NOT "familiar" with.

But I think actually "girl" is used more in Norway (in Norwegian of course...) than in the States. Sports journalists are known for calling female athletes "girls", "the girls team" when they would never call the male ones "boys".

And I completely agree with whoever said that it shouldn't have to be a compliment that one looks younger than one is. I mean, you should be gracious and accept a compliment as it's meant anyway, but I'd prefer to just be able to be a girl, a young woman, a woman and then an old woman without any negative associations connected to the terms.

PS. So to the old-school gentlemen who instead of asking my age say "well, one should never ask a lady her age..." I just go "It's ok, I'm no lady, and I'm 38."

;)
I thought we crashed the board, Starfish

I despise being called "lady" because it's my feeling that it is a class distinction and a role as opposed to merely being my gender. I tend to dislike classification anyway unless someone has to refer to someone as one gender or another. There's no good way to do it and I've been guilty of the "guys" also.

As far as "go girl" or chick or anything, it's all in intent. If one of you said that, I would have no problem. If it was meant in a bad way (ie said probably from a male and I got the impression that it meant I was less of a person), I'd be irked.

So if someone such as a waiter approaches a table with women or men or mixed genders, how would one address the group?

I've been known to say things like "you two" if it's a group of two people. That sounds bad also though.

I'm strange though, I rarely refer to DH as my husband. He has a name, I prefer to use that because he's his own person and I don't like putting him into a category of husband. I have to do it a lot though or I'd say his name and people would say "who's that" so I'm working around that one.

What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

I (obviously) take no offense at being called a "girl." LOL

When I started Velo Girls, I had no idea that the term "girl" was considered derogatory by many women a generation or two older than I am, until I read a blog entry written by one of our members about her first exposure to the club. I simply found an available URL and VeloGirls.com has a much better ring than VeloMiddleAgedWomen.com!

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

It is bit strange to think of female athlete as ladies. To me, it conjurs up an image of victorian dressed women with their white gloves and hat playing badmitton (sp) or other "lawn sport" of sort. Hardly the tank top, short-short with cleated shoes of any kind.

referring to one another as girls is okay with me AS LONG AS it is amongst women of my age or there abouts. If I refer to a younger adult women as a girl, I think that's condesending. and if I say that to women who are much older than me, I don't think I'm showing my proper respect to them. It's just me.

And I do know that to younger women, calling one another as "guys" seem perfectly normal. They don't even think about it. Then again language has a life and it changes with time. I can't imagine what life would be like if we all spoke Elizabethan English or English language from Sir William Spencer's or from Chaucer's period. Try reading "The Shepard's Calendar", "Fairy Queen" or" Canterbury Tale" or even "Midsummer Nights Dream" as it was written and you would go :confused: :confused:

When did we stop saying "I shall..." and became "I will ..." My English teacher beat that into me years and years ago "never say I will. Proper usage is 'I shall...' ".

And when did two or more people become two or more persons as if we don't know the term people?

Likewise when did actress become actors?

Then again I'm not a staunch language conservative like William Safire who is offemded more times than not.

yes ladies and men just sound all wrong.

smilingcat

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Originally Posted by velogirl

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

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Exactly. I became a ma'am I guess...don't remember the first time but :eek:

Anyway, it is like racial groups calling themselves things that nobody else would be allowed to call them? If that makes sense, it's putting it out there and WE can say things but we'd bristle if other people called us that. And nothing wrong with girls/boys. I often joke about (as I am clumsily trying to swim) talking about swimming in the lane with the big boys and big girls. It's just silliness. Then again, I'm not calling them boys and girls specifically...ok, my brain is now exploding.

And I do think the boys are starting to learn that we're pretty darned strong when we want to be :D

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Originally Posted by lyca

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

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I think gal is the counterpart to guy.

Yes, I try to use woman instead of lady. I use the word guy a lot, but I hardly ever say gal.

Karen