More Time Trial questions

For those of you who do time trials, how do your tempo ride times compare to your actual TT times? I am working toward doing my first TT. I do 20 minute tempo intervals on a big loop near my house with 155 feet of elevation gain. The farthest I have gone is about 7 miles in 20 minutes (20.7 avg pace) and the first TT I do will be 12.5, so close to twice as far. And it actually might be exactly twice the elevation, depending on which TT I do first. Assuming I did that one, a 12.5 mile TT with 300 feet of climbing, is it reasonable to assume I'd do it about the same average pace as my tempo ride? Or might it be faster because of race day adrenaline ... or slower because it's a longer distance?

I know wind and other things play a big part, but generally speaking how would you say your tempo rides compare to your TTs? I don't have a power meter and still working on getting my stupid HR monitor to work ... so I average pace is really my only method of analyzing how I'm doing.

Also, would you say it's important to do a full 12.5 mile mock TT before my first? Kind of makes sense, but I also know you don't have to ride 100 miles to train for a century or run 26 miles to train for a marathon.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Jiffer

For those of you who do time trials, how do your tempo ride times compare to your actual TT times?

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Short answer, they don't.
Long answer, see below... :)

Your tempo zone pretty much spans from 76% of your FTP to 90% of your FTP. Almost everyone agrees that the most accurate way to measure FTP is to follow its definition and take the average power output over a 60 minutes effort as hard as you can. In other words, average power output over a 1 hour time trial.
In time trial you expect to go as hard as you can. This means, as hard as you can go over that course, using all you have, with a reasonable steady pace. It is a hard effort. You will probably want to fall off the bike at 20 minutes, curse the sport and the race at 30, and be about to throw up at 40 minutes. If you are happily maintaining a fast pace and feeling good, chances are you are not going as hard as you can go. Old school crono specialists used to say that if it does not hurt it is not time trial.

So let's say you do your 60 minutes TT and find out that your FTP is 250w. Now you know that your tempo zone is between 76 and 90% of that, so your tempo power output is between 190w and 225w. Just looking at these fictitious numbers you can see that if you ride your TT like a tempo interval - you are generating lower power than you could if you really rode as hard as you can.
Another way to say the same thing is that TT effort is usually in low-mid threshold zone, which is definitely higher than tempo zone.

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Originally Posted by Jiffer

I am working toward doing my first TT. I do 20 minute tempo intervals on a big loop near my house with 155 feet of elevation gain. The farthest I have gone is about 7 miles in 20 minutes (20.7 avg pace) and the first TT I do will be 12.5, so close to twice as far. And it actually might be exactly twice the elevation, depending on which TT I do first.
Assuming I did that one, a 12.5 mile TT with 300 feet of climbing, is it reasonable to assume I'd do it about the same average pace as my tempo ride?

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No. Dangerous assumption. And, incorrect assumption.

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Originally Posted by Jiffer

Or might it be faster because of race day adrenaline ... or slower because it's a longer distance?

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It will be different. And the only way to know whether it will be faster or slower is to test.
When you do a workout that includes tempo intervals, as you are describing, your workout includes one or more intervals in the tempo zone, i.e. one or more intervals with power output 76-90% FTP.
Your first time trial is 12.5 miles, so you are looking very likely a 30-40 minutes effort around 100% FTP.
The only way to accurately estimate what your pace will be in a 12.5miles time trial is to do a 12.5 miles time trial.
Most people find that their 30 minutes test is very similar to the FTP value, and that FTP is about 93-97% of the 20 minutes test. So, an approximation would be that your 12.5 TT output would be reasonably close to your FTP, and maybe a tad bit higher. So that, compared to tempo which is only up to 90% FTP - is definitely quite different.

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Originally Posted by Jiffer

I know wind and other things play a big part, but generally speaking how would you say your tempo rides compare to your TTs? I don't have a power meter and still working on getting my stupid HR monitor to work ... so I average pace is really my only method of analyzing how I'm doing.

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One small recommendation first - start thinking about a power meter. You do not need one to race, but if you want to specialize in time trial, it becomes avery useful piece of equipment. That said, yes, there are a few things you can estimate with speed and/or HR - as long as you keep always in mind the variability of speed and HR and can take the fallacy of your measurement system into account.
For example, you could test and determine your HR for a threshold-like effort, and use that to establish your zones.
Which brings me to a question though... if you have no power and no HR measurements - how did you establish 'tempo'? In other words, you mentioned doing tempo intervals - but how do you know where your tempo is, without measurements? Or maybe are you just temporarily without power and HR, but you did establish your zones with it? I'm kind of confused...

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Originally Posted by Jiffer

Also, would you say it's important to do a full 12.5 mile mock TT before my first? Kind of makes sense, but I also know you don't have to ride 100 miles to train for a century or run 26 miles to train for a marathon.

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You do not have to train 100 miles do complete a 100 mile ride - but to win a 100 mile race you may need to train 130. Likewise, you do not need to run 26 miles to complete a marathon - but to win or place your city marathon, you might.
There is a big difference between completing a century ride and racing one. The first one, you enter with the goal to complete; the second one, you enter with the goal to win or place. BIG difference.

So, back to your TT - there are a few things specific to time trial which is why the time trial specialists train time trial and often try to simulate race conditions to predict how things will go during the race. My recommendation would be:
1-yes, do a 12.5 miles TT, and do everything like you would on race day (same nutrition, setup, bike and wheels of course, same warmup, etc).
2-if possible do a recon on the race course and try a TT there (will help determine entry/exit lines around dificult corners or turnarounds, areas to watch for, any problems with the road, etc).
There's a couple of 'first TT' threads on the 33 on bike forums, good advice so go take a look.
Good luck!!!

Wow. That's a lot of info! Thanks so much. :)

I'd love to do my first TT on a TT bike, but I'm not about to buy one until I actually try a TT event once. The first one I'm doing is probably on Mother's Day and then, actually, there aren't any more in our area until September. So the plan is to use aero bars and an aero helmet for the first one (found a helmet to borrow and might have bars to borrow ... or can buy from REI and take back if I need to!) ... and depending on how that goes, would seriously consider a TT bike.

I've been talking to my husband about a power meter. I had no idea how much they were and that you have to commit a specific wheel, etc. But I'll be getting one eventually.

Thanks for all your input. I appreciate it.

Hi Jiffer! I know it's kind of far away, but there is a time trial in Piru the first weekend of every month. On the first Saturday of the month is the 40K TT and the first Sunday of the month is the 20K TT. Cyclists come from as far away as Bakersfield and Orange County to participate. It's an open course with limited rural traffic and it is not flat! Anyone can sign up, and you race in the order that you signed up in (via Active.com, Uncle Tren's time trials) I'm going to the April 20K, pm me if you are interested - it's fun to get a group going too. They even let recumbent bikes on the course. There is a little boy ( I think he's 9) who come out and his dad rides along with him, and sometimes very challenged athletes on trikes and handcycles too. My coach told me "if you can do Uncle Tren's, you can do any time trial" - it's really good experience. tokie http://www.uncletren.com/piru.html (his website isn't current for 2011, but it gives you an idea)

You got some great input from TxDoc, but I'll add a few comments too.

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Originally Posted by TxDoc

Short answer, they don't.
Long answer, see below... :)

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Agreed. First, tempo rides are, well, ridden at tempo. Typically in a TT, my efforts are high LT and into anaerobic. For example, my max HR is about 182. For a TT effort, my average HR hovers around 177, with a max typically around 180. On a tempo ride, my average HR is in the 150-160 range - much lower than at TT effort.

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Originally Posted by TxDoc

In time trial you expect to go as hard as you can. This means, as hard as you can go over that course, using all you have, with a reasonable steady pace. It is a hard effort. You will probably want to fall off the bike at 20 minutes, curse the sport and the race at 30, and be about to throw up at 40 minutes. If you are happily maintaining a fast pace and feeling good, chances are you are not going as hard as you can go. Old school crono specialists used to say that if it does not hurt it is not time trial.

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Absolutely! No doubt, a tempo ride can feel like a hard effort, but a TT will feel worse. It hurts, and this is where the mental part of it comes into play. You need to be able to mentally push yourself harder than you think you can. When I cross the finish line, I can barely stand up, can't talk, and often, feel like throwing up (yes - it IS fun :D).

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Originally Posted by TxDoc

One small recommendation first - start thinking about a power meter. You do not need one to race, but if you want to specialize in time trial, it becomes avery useful piece of equipment. That said, yes, there are a few things you can estimate with speed and/or HR - as long as you keep always in mind the variability of speed and HR and can take the fallacy of your measurement system into account.

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Here's an alternate opinion - I don't train with power. Never have, and am not about to start. I do know what my wattage zones are, but none of my wheels measure power. While not as accurate for MANY reasons, I train by HR and have been doing that for over 5 years. BUT, I do agree with TxDoc that you need to test to see where your zones are - if you are simply going by RPE, that is ok, but know that your efforts are likely not quite as hard as you may perceive them to be.

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Originally Posted by TxDoc

So, back to your TT - there are a few things specific to time trial which is why the time trial specialists train time trial and often try to simulate race conditions to predict how things will go during the race. My recommendation would be:
1-yes, do a 12.5 miles TT, and do everything like you would on race day (same nutrition, setup, bike and wheels of course, same warmup, etc).
2-if possible do a recon on the race course and try a TT there (will help determine entry/exit lines around dificult corners or turnarounds, areas to watch for, any problems with the road, etc).
There's a couple of 'first TT' threads on the 33 on bike forums, good advice so go take a look.
Good luck!!!

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Personally, I think you are spending too much time stressing over this before you have even tried it! I showed up at my first TT with a too-big-for-me road bike with MTB pedals, and a kit that was baggy. I had NO idea what I was getting myself into - had never raced on the road, and CERTAINLY had not been training. I had pre-ridden the course the previous day, but that was the entire extent of my preparation. I finished 2nd in my age group that day, and have been hooked on the TT ever since.

You are going to be FAR more prepared than many of the people who show up. Relax, and have some fun.

SheFly

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Originally Posted by Tokie

Hi Jiffer! I know it's kind of far away, but there is a time trial in Piru the first weekend of every month. On the first Saturday of the month is the 40K TT and the first Sunday of the month is the 20K TT. Cyclists come from as far away as Bakersfield and Orange County to participate. It's an open course with limited rural traffic and it is not flat! Anyone can sign up, and you race in the order that you signed up in (via Active.com, Uncle Tren's time trials) I'm going to the April 20K, pm me if you are interested - it's fun to get a group going too. They even let recumbent bikes on the course. There is a little boy ( I think he's 9) who come out and his dad rides along with him, and sometimes very challenged athletes on trikes and handcycles too. My coach told me "if you can do Uncle Tren's, you can do any time trial" - it's really good experience. tokie http://www.uncletren.com/piru.html (his website isn't current for 2011, but it gives you an idea)

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Thanks Tokie. Piru is actually the TT I was referring to in my post about a 12.5 TT with 300 ft of climbing possibly being my first. It's the closest one to me other than Tom's Farms, which doesn't start until September and Santiago, which is way more climbing than I want to do. I was a little confused about your comment about Piru not being flat .. with an exclamation mark ... like that was a wonderful thing! ;) I am ALL about flat, which is why I want to try TT's. I'm not so good at the climbing. I hear Fiesta Island is as flat it gets, so definitely looking forward to trying that one.

I'll let you know when I plan to do my first Piru. Unfortunately, anemia just struck, so I'm not sure how that's going to affect things.

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Originally Posted by SheFly

Personally, I think you are spending too much time stressing over this before you have even tried it! I showed up at my first TT with a too-big-for-me road bike with MTB pedals, and a kit that was baggy. I had NO idea what I was getting myself into - had never raced on the road, and CERTAINLY had not been training. I had pre-ridden the course the previous day, but that was the entire extent of my preparation. I finished 2nd in my age group that day, and have been hooked on the TT ever since.

You are going to be FAR more prepared than many of the people who show up. Relax, and have some fun.

SheFly

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Thanks, SheFly. I totally get what you're saying. I'm really not as stressed about it as it may seem. Mostly just curious. I'm very competitive and have had to mentally deal with being near the back of the field in the three road races I did because of the climbing ... and really don't care to do another event and be at the end ... when I know I have it in me to NOT be. At the very least, I want to be mentally prepared for how fast (or slow) I might ride an actual TT so I'm not discouraged after. I do intend to think of it more as a baseline for improving on when doing the same TT in the future, and less about competing against others.

I have good news and bad news regarding finally actually doing my first TT. Good news is DH seems to be on board now. I talked to him about the one on Mother's Day in San Diego (Fiesta Island). I told him we should make the kids get up early and go with us and then we can hang out in San Diego for the day and do stuff. He took it a step further and said we should stay in "our hotel". So, looks like we may make a weekend out of it. I asked him if he was thinking of doing the TT as well and he said, "Well, I can't imagine going to a TT event and not actually riding in it." I figured as much. ;) He's also supportive of me getting the clip on aero bars and helmet, although it looks like I have a helmet to borrow for now ... and possibly the clips too.

The bad news is ... I was just hit with a bout of anemia again. I went through this last July. I was riding better than I ever had (having trained for and ridden in those three races, and a timed century with over 8,000 feet of climbing). I had also lost about 15 lbs (mainly for the purpose of climbing better) during which I apparently didn't get enough iron in my diet for the intensity of training.

So, it took the momentum out of my training. I rode way less and worried less about maintaining my weight and getting more foods with iron in me and slowly gained most of the weight back. After I got over the anemia, I got a cold, followed by another cold, and then Christmas chaos came ... all of which kept me from consistently training. I was finally back in both weight loss mode and training consistently enough to start seeing results and working toward my former glory (haha!) when this past week my period came and, with it, the same symptoms of anemia.

DOH! :eek: I'm so mad at myself that I somehow "forgot" to be super aware of the iron intake. I can't even believe I did this to myself again. I also can't believe it happened so easily. Obviously, this is something I have to be aware for the rest of my life, particularly as long as I'm riding a bike with any intensity. Anyways, I know what it takes to get over it and I think I'll be able to avert it ever happening again as long as I'm not an idiot. But I also know it will affect how well I do my first TT, which will NOT be this weekend now for sure (the first one I was considering doing). So the one on Mother's Day is really the first reasonable one I should consider doing under the circumstances. It's 6 weeks away. If I take it easy on the bike for a couple of weeks, I should be able to amp it up a little after that and at least do my first TT at my about my current fitness (or what it was a week ago).

So while I may not "improve" between now and then, I think it's reasonable to plan to do it and have a baseline to improve upon in the future. And then there will be no more TT's until September around here.

I think you should find a good route to race on (probably where you do your 20 min tempo, but longer), and go out and try to do at least a couple 20 min TT efforts (and maybe some 30 or 40min ones, if you have the days available) to get an idea for pacing and how you will feel. The goal will be to go as hard as you can such that you are barely able to finish the interval. Keep an eye on whatever data you use: speed, cadence, heart rate, power, whatever. Just know that if you use HR, it can be more variable than power. What you're going for is tuning into a "feel." But know some numbers so that when you get out there, if you're perceived exertion is skewed for whatever reason, your data can help you convince yourself to go harder when you think you're going hard enough but aren't. After a few of those practice intervals, you start to get what you can sustain for how long. This will get you through the 20km TTs. 40km is a much tougher game for me.

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Originally Posted by aicabsolut

I think you should find a good route to race on (probably where you do your 20 min tempo, but longer), and go out and try to do at least a couple 20 min TT efforts (and maybe some 30 or 40min ones, if you have the days available) to get an idea for pacing and how you will feel. The goal will be to go as hard as you can such that you are barely able to finish the interval. Keep an eye on whatever data you use: speed, cadence, heart rate, power, whatever. Just know that if you use HR, it can be more variable than power. What you're going for is tuning into a "feel." But know some numbers so that when you get out there, if you're perceived exertion is skewed for whatever reason, your data can help you convince yourself to go harder when you think you're going hard enough but aren't. After a few of those practice intervals, you start to get what you can sustain for how long. This will get you through the 20km TTs. 40km is a much tougher game for me.

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Great advice, and I would definitely bump the TT efforts to the 30 minutes - since it's very likely that it will take you 30-40 minutes to race your 12.5miles TT.

OK. So all this talk about upcoming TTs, being ready and training panicked me a bit last night ;). Our weekly TT starts mid-April and I have at least 1000 fewer miles on my legs at this point this season than last. I don't want to go out and embarrass myself :D (yes, Jiffer, I am contradicting myself, but I DO have posted times for this route over the past 5 years!)

So, last night on a "training" ride, I decided to go out and give the TT loop a try. On my training bike. With no aero equipment. And lights. And a pump, water bottle and saddle bag. And blinkies. And my jersey half unzipped.

I rode the whole 9.75 miles in my drops, with the exception of two small hill climbs on the course. I was VERY pleasantly surprised when I finished in 26:42 (22 mph) - respectable given all of the variables! Maybe my goal of beating my PR from last season (23:17) is achievable this year. Regardless, I am going to have fun trying!

SheFly

Ha, SheFly. I felt good going up the hill on Monument Street yesterday because I was pulling DH at the high speed of 10 mph....

Jiffer, I don't know if it is possible for you, but Cyclovets in San Diego does time trial training which includes training for beginners. I think they do it on Tuesday mornings though. I been thinking about doing some TT myself.

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Originally Posted by Crankin

Ha, SheFly. I felt good going up the hill on Monument Street yesterday because I was pulling DH at the high speed of 10 mph....

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Ya - don't get excited - even full on yesterday I probably crested at about 13.5... And it hurt - A LOT!

SheFly

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Originally Posted by SheFly

OK. So all this talk about upcoming TTs, being ready and training panicked me a bit last night ;). Our weekly TT starts mid-April and I have at least 1000 fewer miles on my legs at this point this season than last. I don't want to go out and embarrass myself :D (yes, Jiffer, I am contradicting myself, but I DO have posted times for this route over the past 5 years!)

So, last night on a "training" ride, I decided to go out and give the TT loop a try. On my training bike. With no aero equipment. And lights. And a pump, water bottle and saddle bag. And blinkies. And my jersey half unzipped.

I rode the whole 9.75 miles in my drops, with the exception of two small hill climbs on the course. I was VERY pleasantly surprised when I finished in 26:42 (22 mph) - respectable given all of the variables! Maybe my goal of beating my PR from last season (23:17) is achievable this year. Regardless, I am going to have fun trying!

SheFly

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Yeah SheFly - you really do fly!!!
:D