Need help from Brooks owners, please.

I have a B-17s, aged leather that I recently purchased and put on my Jamis Aurora. Today was the longest ride I've done on it, and only my 3rd ride. I rode for a little over an hour/15 miles, so a reasonable time in the saddle.

The good:

1. Overall my sitbones are happier in that they are more supported.

The not so good:

1. My soft tissue isn't happy, pain isn't excrutiating, more discomfort than actual pain, however I 'm sure that will come as I do longer rides :rolleyes:. It was worse but reduced tension in saddle, lowered nose slightly, prior to todays ride. Both these adjustments did help.

2. The biggest issue however is the pain in my shoulders and neck. It's related to the saddle because it was not an issue at all prior to the Brooks. I feel like my reach to the handlebar has increased but I very carefully marked the saddle when I put it on (placing it where the other was, adjusting for the shorter length of the Brooks so may be off some. Could be the tipped nose but it is nearly level so I don't think it's that.

3. I couldn't comfortably ride on the hoods or drops because of the soft tissue pain on the saddle and because of the reach discomfort (don't know how to describe it any better).

I know Brooks need to be broken in so I am wondering will the issues I mentioned resolve in time? I wonder because most of what breaking in does affect the sit bones and of all the points of contact on the saddle that one is the most pain free.

I think I should move my saddle slightly closer to h/bar, what do you all think?

Any other help/advice would be appreciated. :)

Susan

I can't give you any specifics - I don't even ride a Brooks - but I can tell you that I've ridden three saddles on my current bike, and every change has completely changed the way I fit/sit on the bike - even though tilt, height at the top of the saddle and nominal fore/aft placement didn't change. Stem changes, moving the hoods around, tilting the bars, the whole shebang - even from the Specialized Lithia to the nearly identical but firmer Jett.

If your sitbones, your knees and your lower legs are happy, I wouldn't change the fore/aft position of the saddle. What that does is change the relationship of your knees to the pedals. If you want to adjust the reach, put on a shorter stem (or, counterintuitively, sometimes a longer stem can take pressure off your shoulders as well).

What you say makes sense, but I have the shortest stem on it now (90mm). On the Jamis they have a "easy height adjustment" stem that is specific to the bike so I can't just change the stem by itself, interesting about going w/longer stem possibly, but I think the problem if stem related is length. I felt too stretched out.

Maybe I should lower the saddle a bit more/raise the h/bar. The Brooks is quite a bit higher than the stock saddle of the Jamis so I may still be high. I may reduce the tension a little bit more too.

Thanks OakLeaf, I appreciate the suggestions.

When you put the Brooks on your bike, how did you determine your position was the same? I ask only because Brooks saddles tend to be taller and the rails tend to be shorter. So, you want to have measured from you to the bike (e.g., bend in the knee and knee to pedal spindle distance), not saddle to bike. I had to go from a straight seat post to an offset seat post when I put in the Brooks to get the same position on the bike.

As for the bits, did you try the "cutout test" that KnottedYet wrote? If so, did you pass or fail? If your saddle position and overall fit is not right, that alone could cause the pressure, so you want to resolve that before anything else. Be careful tipping the saddle down as you can end up with too much pressure on the hands and arms (hm....as you've stated).

You don't want to hear this, but I cut a hole in my Brooks (well, actually, Selle Anatomica cut the hole in for me). Without it, I just couldn't get comfortable. If your sit bones are supported on the B-17 you might just want to try out a Selle Anatomica to see if it resolves the pressure in the sensitive areas.

But, first, can you get someone to help you with that fit?

The "S" models of Brooks saddles are shorter than the non-S models. Their rails are about 1 1/2" shorter as well. When i had a B17S I found I could not shove the saddle far back enough to feel balanced on my bike. It caused me to feel like I was falling forward with my weight, and this put too much weight on my hands and arms. More weight on your hands could mean shoulder discomfort. For me, it wasn't so much that I couldn't reach the handlebars, it was that there was too much weight coming down on my hands to hold myself up. I felt like I was holding myself up with my hands.

All this sounds familiar to me, and when I exchanged my B17S for a 'men's' B17, I was SO relieved to be able to slide the saddle back another 1.5". This made all the diff in the world to my sense of weight balance. It shifted my center of gravity back and my weight off my hands.

The main diff I found between the B17S and the B17 was not so much the shape of the saddle, or even its shortness/longness....it was the length of the rails and how that effected my being able to position the saddle further back.

I know it seems counter-intuitive to put your saddle further back if you think you are having a reach problem, but...
get on the floor, evenly on on your hands and knees. See how much weight is on your hands? Now, shift your butt backwards while keeping all hands and knees in the same spot- see how there is now less weight going onto your hands? Yet you have not brought your hands in closer to you. This is what happens when you shift your saddle a bit further back. It changes your center of gravity.

In addition to getting weight off your hands, shifting your weight back will also put less weight on your frontal 'girl parts'. Having more weight on your sitbones will help with soft tissue pain. In the meantime, be sure you are using a lube on your tender parts, or at least some creamy hypo-allergenic hand lotion- this does help on long rides, I find.
Hope this provides some further possibilities to think about.

Lisa, that's a great illustration!

Another thing to remember is that stems come not only in different lengths, but in different rises. A longer stem with a steeper rise can shorten the distance to the handlebars and give you a more upright riding position.

Thorn: I'll have to look up KnottedYet's "cutout test" and see, I've never heard of it but I'll do a search. You're right, I can't bear to think about cutting a hole in my Brooks! :eek: I've tried out a variety of saddles over the years but never a Selle Anatomica. I'm committed to Brooks for this bike (aethetics over function/comfort, hopefully just for the time being though :rolleyes:). I may look at that saddle for my Scott though.

Because my sitbones seem supported I'm hopeful the Brooks will work once I get the fit dialed in. I bought the bike from a lbs and will be taking the bike in for a check next week so they can tweak my fit.

Lisa: I went back and forth between the s and regular. Initially I planned to order the "regular" because in my research here I read about the issue of not being able to slide back enough because of the shorter rails. After a ridiculous amount of weighing the pros and cons, I went with the S because of the width difference between the two and felt like my sitbones needed that little extra that the S gives). I think in terms of that alone the S is a better fit for me than the regular. However, if this one doesn't work for me my plan is to return and try the B17 regular.

You've both brought up a lot of good points and I plan to ride today and experiment. I really think the saddle is too high and that will be the first thing I change. My husband rode behind me and thought I seemed to be reaching more in the bottom of my pedal stroke. It felt like it to me so I'll start there.

I've gotta go to the dentist now :( but, thanks very much for the feedback - I really appreciate it!!:)

Susan

Thanks ladies! I recently purchased a Brooks saddle and have been having many of these same problems. Could not believe how much weight was on my hands yet my reach felt further away. I will try to move the saddle back a little more and see if that helps.

Thanks again!

Just got back from riding around the neighborhood with regular shorts, no bike shorts/no padding.

I decided to ride once more before making any changes to my fit so I could mentally take note of exactly what was happening regarding pain, etc. I have found over the years that I am better off making changes to my fit very slowly and very conservatively.

First off, I was much more comfortable on my Brooks without my padded bike shorts. Confusing to me, I would have expected the opposite.

I'm wondering if the reason is when I wear padded shorts, the padding gets squished against the saddle, which further squishes my bits. My other saddles have cut outs so this wouldn't be an issue, or at least not as much of one. What do you think?

I did Knotted's cut-out test and passed, nothing was squished. ;)

Another thing I noticed, when I am riding on my saddle with hands placed just on the flat part of the bar (either side of the stem) my saddle feels fine. No pain anywhere.

It is when I rotate my pelvis down/forward and get on hoods or drops (which is how I ride the majority of the time) that the pain occurs. The pain occurs not on the sit bones but rather the pubic bone.

Thoughts??

Much Thanks! :)

Susan

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Originally Posted by SLash

First off, I was much more comfortable on my Brooks without my padded bike shorts. Confusing to me, I would have expected the opposite.

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Too much padding in your shorts can indeed cause more pressure and will push back against your sensitive parts. Just as a too-padded foamy saddle can be more painful against your soft tissues than a hard unpadded saddle. Sometimes less is more. :)

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It is when I rotate my pelvis down/forward and get on hoods or drops (which is how I ride the majority of the time) that the pain occurs. The pain occurs not on the sit bones but rather the pubic bone.
Thoughts??

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When you get onto the hoods or drops, be aware of tilting your pelvis. Try tilting it the other way instead, down/forward- pull in your stomach and tip your pubic bone area up and forward instead of down and back. This will strengthen your core, prevent the sagging back posture (which again puts more weight and strain on your hands and shoulders) and prevents you from riding right on the hard nose of your saddle with your pubic bone. After a while when you are more aware of your body positions this tummy tuck pelvic tilt will become more automatic.

When you tilt your pelvis down/forward, you tend to let your back and tummy sag down (like a swayback horse) and that makes your hands have to hold your weight up all by themselves (ow!), plus it will hurt your pubic area to ride on it. It's sort of a lazy posture, easy to do, but will work against you. I had to stop myself from doing it.
It helps to be more aware of your whole body floating over the bike, and try to distribute your weight evenly between sitbones, feet, and hands. think of your whole body as floating/walking/swimming over your bike, not just your body sitting on a chair while pedaling. This thoughts helped me become much more aware of my own body on my bike. :)

Thanks Lisa, but I'm a little confused by some of the information. I've always been told to ride with flat back, pelvis rotated forward, imagining trying to touch the top tube with belly button, etc. So I have always tried to ride with a flat back and achieving that by rotating my pelvis forward. When I said forward/down I was referring to rolling my pelvis forward and down getting in the drops. I checked with my husband who I ride with primarily and a friend and both say although my back isn't perfectly flat (slightly rounded in the upper part) the lower part of my back is flat, not swaybacked.

The other thing is this is an issue with the Brooks and Jamis not my Scott and Zerox.

With that said, I know I could engage my core more (always :rolleyes:) and as you suggest try to pull up at the pubic area. I think part of the issue is the saddle is a little high which would exacerbates the pubic pressure issue as I have to reach at the bottom of my stroke (my husband noticed this when we were out riding the other day).

Quote:

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It helps to be more aware of your whole body floating over the bike, and try to distribute your weight evenly between sitbones, feet, and hands. think of your whole body as floating/walking/swimming over your bike, not just your body sitting on a chair while pedaling.

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This describes how I feel when I ride my Scott CR1 Pro perfectly (Terry zerox saddle), feeling a part of the bike, not like I'm sitting on and riding the bike. I don't feel that way on my Jamis which is partly because of the different geometry but I believe, is also a fit issue. Getting the Brooks has changed my fit and the changes need to be addressed. Sigh. :( I had the perfect fit on the bike prior to changing out the saddle. I felt comfortable while in the drops or hoods with the stock saddle, but my sit bones weren't happy. Funny, but I have the opposite problem with Brooks, sitbones happy, rest isn't/stock saddle everything happy but the sitbones. There is no perfect saddle. :cool:

I appreciate your feedback and know it's important to not collapse on the bike but to support myself with my core too, and will keep your pointers in mind when I ride next.

Susan

Thanks Susan,
Yes everyone and every bike is a little different. I hope you can figure out the issues. I wonder if some of our confusion about pelvic tilt is possibly just confusion in descriptions, hard to figure out.

One sign that your saddle is too high is that your hips will rock from side to side as you hit your downstroke. Perhaps that's what you describe as 'reaching' for the downstroke? No harm is trying different tweakings!

My advice is usually based on just my own experiences, so if you find any stuff in what I say that you can use, then great! :)

Lisa, I think you're right, different ways to say the same thing sometimes.

I wondered about whether my hips were rocking and asked DH when we were out riding together last time and he said no. I mainly feel like I'm reaching with my right leg and not a lot but maybe enough to explain some of the discomfort with the Brooks. My right leg is 5/8th in shorter than my left (bike accident when I was 10 :rolleyes:) and although with shim and pad for R shoe it was reduced a lot there still is a slight difference so I have to fit for the shorter leg, if that makes sense.

It's a long story and I won't go into it but basically I rode for several years, lots of miles (for me anyway, 3000+) also ran and after having trouble with my knee saw an orthopedic dr. He's the one that first diagnosed my right leg problem. Turns out I broke my leg in that bike accident all those years ago (my buddy and I were flying down a hill, I hit gravel, went airborne, landed on my knees) and never knew it, never was treated for it. The break resulted in a curvature of my right leg below the knee (the area of the break) and the 5/8 inch shorter leg length since I was so young and still growing. So basically after riding all those years with no "accommodations" to equal out my leg lengths I just "learned" how to ride without rocking hips or being "unbalanced" in my pedaling style even though I had this fairly significant diff between the two leg lengths. From paying attention and riding while the guy that did the fit watched me, I have compensated for it by sitting on the saddle not quite centered. Until I got this latest fit on my Jamis and got the shim, etc. for my right shoe I had never addressed it. It's never given me any problems that I was aware of anyway.

I mention all this because it makes my fit on the bike more complicated and is part of what I'm dealing with on the saddle - I think anyway. :)

Again, I appreciate your help.

Susan

I own a B-17 and for me, the tilt adjustment made a huge difference. I have one on one bike but I haven't gotten one for my Aurora because I'd need to get a better seatpost (for my tastes) to be able to tweak the heck outta the tilt. It's taken me awhile to get the height, tilt and such...just right on my other bike. But the rest is just a matter of breaking in. I'm in no pain when riding. You shouldn't be either. Brooks saddles take about - (dare I say this?), 1000 miles to fully break in - according to the guys/gals from Brooks. I feel comfortable already, but it's just a more finicky saddle.

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Originally Posted by moderncyclista

I own a B-17 and for me, the tilt adjustment made a huge difference. I have one on one bike but I haven't gotten one for my Aurora because I'd need to get a better seatpost (for my tastes) to be able to tweak the heck outta the tilt. It's taken me awhile to get the height, tilt and such...just right on my other bike. But the rest is just a matter of breaking in. I'm in no pain when riding. You shouldn't be either. Brooks saddles take about - (dare I say this?), 1000 miles to fully break in - according to the guys/gals from Brooks. I feel comfortable already, but it's just a more finicky saddle.

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Hi Modern,

The thing that jumped out at me was the 1000 miles. :eek: The aged leather is supposed to have a shorter break in period, so that should help. Part of the reason I got the aged, guess I'm inpatient. I also liked the way it looked with my Aurora.

How did you finally get the tilt adjusted? Is it tilted up or down? I rode a little tonight and again felt a little better so there's hope I think.

What do you ride with on your Aurora?

Thanks,

Susan