Esperanto

The discussion about multiple languages got me thinking about this. Does anyone here speak Esperanto?

In case anyone isn't familiar with it, Esperanto is a language that was created in the 19th century to be politically neutral and easy to learn. Its creator lived in an area that is now part of Poland but was then Russian. He believed that some of the conflict he saw in day to day life there could have been avoided if people shared a common language. He also believed it was important to have a language that was neutral, not forced on people by a colonial power. To fulfill that goal he developed a new language, and also tried to keep it as easy to learn as possible. There are no irregular verbs or silent letters in the language, no exceptions to rules.

I took an Esperanto class over the winter. The class was one evening a week and within two weeks I was able to read kid's books, within a month I was reading Esperanto Wikipedia pages (using a dictionary a lot), and within two months I was able to carry on simple conversations at a party.

Cu vi parolas Esperanton?

I studied it about 40 years ago and got mildly fluent, but it evaporated through lack of use. I can still read it, but not write anything anymore.

I remember that! about 40 years ago. IT seems silly to me to learn a language that no one else knows.

I imagine with the internet you can find people now though.

The thing I love about learning other languages is that that you also learn the culture, history, nuances and regional variations that make this world so rich. There's none of that with Esperanto. The idea is admirable, but it misses the mark for me.

That being said, I think it's great that you are learning another language. If you continue and decide to learn additional (dare I say "real") languages, it could open up whole new worlds for you, as it has for me. I'm going to France on Sunday and it's absolutely an incredible experience to be able to participate in that culture as fully as I do because I speak the language.

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Originally Posted by tulip

If you continue and decide to learn additional (dare I say "real") languages, it could open up whole new worlds for you, as it has for me.

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I grew up speaking French and I've also lived in Germany and speak German, so I do speak three "real" languages, and yes they do "open up whole new worlds."

Engingeers Without Frontiers has been exploring the use of Esperanto in their projects. They can send Esperanto textbooks into a region a few months before their engineers go in and by the time work starts everyone is able to communicate somewhat effectively, much more effectively than trying to use English in areas where the people who do speak some English learned it from someone who didn't really know English.

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Originally Posted by kat_h

I grew up speaking French and I've also lived in Germany and speak German, so I do speak three "real" languages, and yes they do "open up whole new worlds."

Engingeers Without Frontiers has been exploring the use of Esperanto in their projects. They can send Esperanto textbooks into a region a few months before their engineers go in and by the time work starts everyone is able to communicate somewhat effectively, much more effectively than trying to use English in areas where the people who do speak some English learned it from someone who didn't really know English.

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Well then, you already know how great it is to be multilingual. Why don't Engineers Without Frontiers use the local language wherever possible, through engineers who speak the language (preferable) and/or interpreters? Alot of people in developing areas are not literate in their own languages, not to mention that many people around the world are just trying to survive and don't have the wherewithall to read Esperanto textbooks. Just seems like using the local language has all sorts of benefits, not least of which is local involvement and buy-in to projects. Esperanto is admirable, but I'm not convinced it's the best way to go.

It's just a big rant of mine that people in the US (and Canada--read below) don't learn other languages from childhood and use them into adulthood. I know Canadians are required to learn French in school (and Quebecois are supposed to learn English, I think?), but a few years ago I was at a conference in Montreal and I was the one who ended up translating between the folks from Alberta and the Quebecois on a professional project visit. I was born in New Jersey--and yet I was the bilingual one. I'm not a translator, I'm a landscape architect like the other people at the conference. The Albertans hadn't spoken French since school and the Quebecois didn't speak English well enough to communicate in English. It did result into some good, if sheepish, laughs on all sides, though.

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Originally Posted by tulip

Well then, you already know how great it is to be multilingual. Why don't Engineers Without Frontiers use the local language wherever possible, through engineers who speak the language (preferable) and/or interpreters?

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That would require having engineers spend a lot of time and effort to learn difficult languages and dialects that they can only use in small regions. There are very few languages which can be learned to a usable level quickly. International organisations spend millions of dollars a year on translators. Can you imagine how much more charity work could be done if the UN and the WHO could divert their translation budgets?

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Originally Posted by tulip

I know Canadians are required to learn French in school

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No we aren't. Many schools don't offer it at all. Many others offer it only as an option and only for a few years.

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Originally Posted by bean fidhleir

I studied it about 40 years ago and got mildly fluent, but it evaporated through lack of use. I can still read it, but not write anything anymore.

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Just out of curiousity, how and why did you learn it? How many other languages do you speak?

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Originally Posted by tulip

Well then, you already know how great it is to be multilingual. Why don't Engineers Without Frontiers use the local language wherever possible, through engineers who speak the language (preferable) and/or interpreters? Alot of people in developing areas are not literate in their own languages, not to mention that many people around the world are just trying to survive and don't have the wherewithall to read Esperanto textbooks. Just seems like using the local language has all sorts of benefits, not least of which is local involvement and buy-in to projects. Esperanto is admirable, but I'm not convinced it's the best way to go.

It's just a big rant of mine that people in the US (and Canada--read below) don't learn other languages from childhood and use them into adulthood. I know Canadians are required to learn French in school (and Quebecois are supposed to learn English, I think?), but a few years ago I was at a conference in Montreal and I was the one who ended up translating between the folks from Alberta and the Quebecois on a professional project visit. I was born in New Jersey--and yet I was the bilingual one. I'm not a translator, I'm a landscape architect like the other people at the conference. The Albertans hadn't spoken French since school and the Quebecois didn't speak English well enough to communicate in English. It did result into some good, if sheepish, laughs on all sides, though.

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I would like to respond to Kh comments on esperanto first, before I respond to tulip's:

Interestingly I knew of a Dutch cyclist who was cycling around the world solo ..and she dropped by Vancouver to visit us. She was an enthusiastic speaker and learner of esperanto. There seems to be whole community, if I am not mistaken...even a cycling informal Internet group who speak esperanto. She did stay in her trip with some esperanto folks worldwide.

I think the most important thing, regardless of how popular or...obscure a language maybe, is if there is a group of people in our big world to speak with...then that's great. Perhaps a point of esperanto..is not to diminish multicultural richness but to give a layer of bonding internationally.

After all, ENGLISH holds political weight in language dominance in ...professional fields worldwide, business and....look here....on the Internet just to find the broadest set of search results on many topics. I'm not saying it's right, but it is a terrible reality in language dominance internationally.


For tulip: I read your rant....with sadness. Recognize there are alot of Canadians who don't necessarily appreciate / remember their mandatory French that they had to learn in primary/high school. I will confirm I can read more French than any Chinese. I was tested for 3 hrs. recently for reading comprehension and sat at near failing level....which I consider positive since I haven't used any French since taking a mandatory basic French course over 25 years ago...mandatory to graduate with my university English literature degree. I thought I would do worse!!!

However it is POSSIBLE, tulip because many Canadians are required to learn French in school.up to a certain grade level...it might increase awareness for some folks who wouldn't experience otherwise unless forced as a mandatory course, to APPRECIATE even dimly, (no matter how much they hated learning that 2nd language) what it is like to learn a 2nd language and that the spirit of cultural nuances is embedded in linguistic structure, idioms, etc.

I don't believe that the objective of 2nd/foreign language learning needs to be primarily ability to have basic fluency or comprehension. Nice to have, but not always realistic.

***** I believe the true, top benefit of 2nd/foreign language is not fluency, but heightened awareness and hopefully, sensitivity by the learner of another culture and how the world can be perceived differently through the lens of another linguistic structure/words.

Like many folks who have severely lost their mother tongue or 2nd /3rd language fluency, I am sad to have lost a great deal of what I acquired as a child. As you know, tulip, language retention demands daily use/immersion for several hrs.

That's great you could translate for the situation that you described. But the problem of 2nd/3rd language retention plagues learners/speakers worldwide..

I'm intrigued by the Engineers without Borders and esperanto learning.

Not sure if alot of engineers in a fast-paced, high pressure project environment would take time to learn esperanto...unless they were bribed or threatened (we will cut your salary if you don't..etc) :D:D

Of course the official working language in our workplace is English and it dominates. But this workplace where I am, is the first employer, out of 7 previous different employers (I need to look at my resume to count....) where people do freely conduct business in another, non-English language.

Right now, I can hear the labour relations guy talking German. 4 hrs. ago, a bevy of 15 labourers hired directly from Thailand wandered up to our building to get their multiple-hr. long construction safety training...which had to be translated to their language. For certain in the engineering sector, to get interesting jobs, knowing a 2nd language is highly advantageous for career/job mobility worldwide.

I should also mention that where I am it is the first workplace where there is a high % of interracial marriages...it's not as common (no matter what people claim)..but more so than 50 years ago. It's direct result of these guys (mostly it's the guys who are moving around interationally) working in foreign locations.

Hence, there are some Caucasians who know a bits of Asian language or their Asian spouse (wife), knows German and in some cases, an impressive fluency in German.

It's been, pretty strange, kh...that I got hired...since I never put into my resume...my partner is German-speaking. :D Life is full of bizarre coincidences.

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Originally Posted by kat_h

Just out of curiousity, how and why did you learn it? How many other languages do you speak?

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Oh, it's just that I stumbled across it one day. I can't quite remember in what context, though. Anyway, I was intrigued and thought Zamenhof had the right idea - create a "langue sans frontieres" that anyone could speak anywhere. So I took out a book (a Teach Yourself, iirc) and got stuck into it. I'd grown up speaking Scots and English, and at that point I'd had a year of French in secondary school, so the idea of learning another language wasn't completely foreign (npi) to me. I bored eveyone around me rigid for a year or two, saying everything in Esperanto and then in English. But by then it had started to penetrate that I was on a hiding to nowhere with the language, being deathly poor and unlikely, I thought, ever to travel, so....

Besides English I'm fluent only in Russian and Standard German, and even they are starting to evaporate from lack of regular speaking use. There are a few others in which I have get-by and/or passive (reading) ability, given a dictionary, but that's all.

(edit: I just realized that it was *50* years ago, not 40 as I originally said.)

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

***** I believe the true, top benefit of 2nd/foreign language is not fluency, but heightened awareness and hopefully, sensitivity by the learner of another culture and how the world can be perceived differently through the lens of another linguistic structure/words.

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+1 on that. It's also such an eye-opening experience to be standing on one's own in a foreign country where nobody speaks your language. But an experience I try to avoid by learning the basics of other languages before travelling!!

Esperanto is meant to be quick to learn for speakers of most languages. I really think that the Engineers Without Borders idea that Kat described is great. It allows the foreign engineers and local people to be sort of on an equal standing, linguistically, and to work together without an interpreter (interpreters are costly and not always inaccurate or qualified). I am quite sure literacy is not an issue here, in most places anyway.

I should add that in Canada it is NOT mandatory to learn a second language in most provinces, and that even where it is the level of instruction is dismal in most places. Mostly, it's creating a sea of people who think they know a language... Which is not necessarily much better than not knowing any at all. [I had written a long rant on second-language teaching in Canada but I'll spare you all!!]

You guys are ruining my Canada Is Awesome stance!

My husband and I dabbled in it a few years ago. It is popular among con-langers (people who create their own language, a harmless if somewhat eccentric hobby, J.R.R. Tolkein is a famous con-langer, technically speaking so was Zamenhof, the creator of Esperanto). Although we only dabbled in it for a couple years, we could hold entire (stilted) conversations, and read (slowly) stories and articles. I was more fluent in Esperanto than I had been in Spanish after 4 years of high school Spanish. It is so easy to learn that with slightly more application we could easily have been more fluent.

It was fun, and something I'd do again if he were still interested. I guess on my own I don't have any motivation to bother. I do wish more organizations would pick it up, because it would solve a lot of problems since it is so easy to learn and culturally neutral (mostly). Engineers, air traffic control... There's even an esperanto scientific journal, that I would like to publish in some day.

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Originally Posted by Grog

+I should add that in Canada it is NOT mandatory to learn a second language in most provinces, and that even where it is the level of instruction is dismal in most places. Mostly, it's creating a sea of people who think they know a language... Which is not necessarily much better than not knowing any at all. [I had written a long rant on second-language teaching in Canada but I'll spare you all!!]

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This might make you nauseous Grog: one of my Canadian cousins...who was a primary public school teacher in Ontario for about 35 years before she retired recently, taught French to her students. :D:

I do admit, it felt a whole lot better for myself, visiting Paris for a few days vs. getting by myself in Athens for a few hrs. Because of the foreign Greek script it was...like getting lost in a Chinese city/section. ;):rolleyes:

Makes me wonder how much information on the Internet about cycling is in other non-English languages. Or is the greatest volume and diversity of Internet topics on cycling written in English?