Riding in groups - semi-vent

[witeowl]

OK, I didn't want to hijack this thread (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=9028), but the following statement made me remember my last few rides with the LBC:


No need to be right on the wheel in front

Now, I'll ride at what I consider a safe distance from the person in front of me. In fact, if I get any closer, I'm afraid that they're going to brake and I'm going to clip them and we're both going down.

Invariably, I get passed by someone, and he rejoins the group RIGHT in front of me, so I have to slow down so that I'm at what I consider a safe distance.

Rinse and repeat until I'm at the back of the pack, but not because I can't keep up. :mad: (Hills, of course, are an exception. A turtle with one leg can pass me then.)

But on the flats and shallow hills, it's really kind of irritating. Why do they do this? Can they not stand the thought of being behind a fat chick? You'd think I'd create plenty of draft behind me! :rolleyes: I just don't get it, and it's really a bit irritating...

OK, you can go back to your regularly scheduled happy posts.

[DDH]

IMPO, I think it's because people in general cannot stand to be behind someone else. They do the same things in cars, and that drives me crazy too. Why would you pass me, make me slow down, and then go slower so that before you know it I am passing you.

I can understand your frustration, that would drive me crazy too. I go on my first organized ride Sat. So I will have to remember that so I don't do it to someone else unknowingly.
Of course I am a fat chick too, so it will probably be everyone passing me. LOL

I think what I would do is pass them back if they don't speed up. Or knowing me I would probably open my big fat mouth and say some smart remark and make everyone hate me. LOL Sorry, but I don't have much patience for inconsiderate people, and I know I am not perfect either, but if someone points out to me something I am doing wrong, I try to remember it and correct it and not do it again. I don't want to be inconsiderate to others and would never do it intentionally.

[Fredwina]

what Gender were said riders? I get that with guys. I guess they're afiard of losing face if they get passed by a Girl.....

[tulip]

Sounds like he's trying to do a paceline, although backwards. Annoying, isn't it?

[mimitabby]

.

Invariably, I get passed by someone, and he rejoins the group RIGHT in front of me, so I have to slow down so that I'm at what I consider a safe distance.

Rinse and repeat until I'm at the back of the pack, but not because I can't keep up. :mad: (Hills, of course, are an exception. A turtle with one leg can pass me then.)

OK, you can go back to your regularly scheduled happy posts.

lol!! this happens to me on the interstate IN MY CAR all the time.
I like a safe following distance. Sound familiar? :cool:

[spokewench]

Riding in groups is a great thing and can be really frustrating. Everyone's "safe distance" is different. I ride a few inches from the wheel in front of me and if it is a group ride with people that halfway know what they are doing it is okay. If it is group that does not and you and the group are not comfortable riding close, you should not. But, don't be surprised when someone passes you if you have a bike length or more in front of you.

I would pass you because and/or 1, this is a sign that you are uncomfortable riding in a pack; 2 you are not going to be able to stay with the group that you are dropping off the pack; 3 that you do not want to flow to the front of the pack and pull because you are tired and that you just want to take advantage of the draft at the back of the pack. Riding in front of you is is called filling the hole! It is totally acceptable pack riding etiquette. I really don't care if that person is some studly man or as you call yourself a fat girl (don't really think you are that).

IF I am in a group that does not ride well together and no one knows pack riding etiquette I either teach the riders in the group if they are agreeable or ride by myself if it is too unsafe, i.e. wobbly riders, overlapping wheels, inattention, etc. If I have decided to opt out, they can ride however they want, I will take care of myself.

Riding in packs takes practice and someone to help you with the ins and out of etiquette. You also have to bend your elbows be relaxed and go with the flow. Try to find someone who can help you on these rides. If you see someone who seems to know what they are doing - go up to them and ask them to help you. If there is a ride leader and they know what they are doing (not all do), ask them for help! It is really fun not to be afraid to ride in groups. So work on it

[limewave]

Witeowl,
I can understand your frustration. Although, I do have to say that when I'm riding in a paceline, I do stay as close to the wheel of the person in front of me as I can. But that's usually when I'm riding with experienced riders in a fast group ride. If the person in front of me leaves a good distance between themselves and the rider in front of them, I will pass and fill in the gap because I don't want to risk getting dropped by the group. Plus I want the benefit of drafting behind more cyclists. Again, that's in an experienced group where most of the riders should know to always pedal and never break without first signaling.
However, there are a couple of other rides that I attend that are more casual, the pace is slower and no one ever gets dropped. Then it's not such a big deal if we get spread out.
It just depends on the group.

[bcipam]

I ride with Clubs most weekdays and weekends and am comfortable and experienced with riding in groups. Now I might have a answer for your problem. One reason why I ride in groups is ok I like the companionship but I also love to paceline. Since you said you always ride somewhat off the last rider, it's possible you are breaking down the paceline. I have been known to ride around someone who won't maintain a paceline to make sure I stay with the "train." Once off the back you are lost forever.

Just something to think about when riding in groups. I know lots of newbie and less experience riders are very cautious and don't feel comfortable on the wheel of the rider in front. I personally will not paceline off someone I don't know or know doesn't ride safe but if behind one of my buds who I ride with regularly, then I am on that wheel and hanging on for all its worth. Also if someone rides alittle "squirrelly" doesn't maintain their line, I will either pass or drop back.

Don't take it personally. Next time it happens see if the group was not pacelining. If so, then you either need to hone your skills or drop back and allow those that want to hang on go for it. Find some riders that also don't like to paceline and hang with them. Group mentally sometimes takes over - people don't want to be dropped and will do anything to stay with the pack.

[DDH]

Okay, now that some of you more experienced riders have explained this, I will remember to not be a smart butt. LOL
I really wouldn't have been anyway though. I don't want to make enemies from the start.
Thanks though for explaining, because it does help those of us without the experience or knowledge to know the whys, hows, if, and buts.

[Geonz]

Yup... what they said -- if I were behind you I'd be thinking, "oy, somebody's butt is being wasted!" (so, you must simply not be fat enough, since the bigger you are, the better the draft). Or, I'd be thinking, "Doesn't she know about drafting? I'll show her how much easier it is to ride..." -- except that then I would proceed to *ask* you (or perhaps say something utterly all-knowing-sounding and you could think..."aaargh!") if you knew about drafting, unless of course we were going a little too fast for me to gasp that out... in which case I'd have just sucked on your wheel...
I think, though, that if I cut in and then you dropped back, I would make the obvious inference, especially if we weren't changing speeds. If you were having trouble keeping up, then my wide butt in front of you should have made it easier and you'd hang while you could.

[SouthernBelle]

Reminds me of my first charity ride. I ended up riding behind this really big guy. I told him I was going to draft him as long as I possibly could. Fortunately he just thought it was funny and said go ahead. We rode together for miles.

[mimitabby]

On the last big ride i was on, since we are a tandem, lots of people asked if they could draft off us. (We always let them) one gal, probably 110 lbs
tried to insist she take a turn pulling... We just told her; what's the point?
If we're going fast enough for you to draft off; draft off us; but you'll pass us
in the climbs and we'll pass you going downhill. And company is always welcome.

[bcipam]

LOVE drafting tandems... do matter how tired if a tandem blows by I try to hang at least for alittle while - those things go fast!!!! :)

[Nanci]

This may be a bit of a drift-

When I'm doing a long ride, I'll draft with one or two people. Usually because I'm really tired, from wind usually, and they let me hang and take short pulls. But later in the day, they get tired, and I can now take long pulls at a pace they are comfortable with, so it evens out.

I'm happy to have company, whether they can pull or not. It helps the hours go by.

Nanci

[latelatebloomer]

I dream of the day I'll be comfortable enough with my skills - and trusting enough of others - to draft. My comfort zone is huge - very happy with 8 feet between me and the next bike, thanks. I know that isn't acceptable for group riding, so I grit my teeth, try to select the most experienced riders, and force myself to close the gap.

I think it all comes with experience, DDH, and you can't hurry experience, just ride and ride. And oh, yeah, fat chicks on bikes totally ROCK.:cool:

[Nanci]

The _president_ (of the cycling club) had his first crash ever, today, right in front of me, and thank God I didn't run him over!!! Caused by touching the wheel ahead. But the person belonging to that wheel was accordianing back and forth, caused by pedaling, coasting, pedaling, coasting rather than soft-pedaling or whatever you call it, to slow up a little rather than coasting and drifting back, then surging ahead when starting to pedal again. Pres had been handling that for miles by drifting left every time she'd coast, (which is ok every so often but gets annoying after a while if you have to do it over and over and over, which is why I had dropped back from third place to back behind Pres- hoping for accordian relief) but apparently got too close for a second...Luckily I'd been watching things like a hawk and was able to swerve left (rather than braking and causing a pile up!!) even though I was about a foot and a half behind him. The person behind me also avoided the crash.

I think I am going to start carrying my Brave Soldier antiseptic spray on the bike, rather than in the first aid kit in the car. He avoided major injury, just a bit of road rash on one leg, no torn clothes, bike unscathed. Lucky.

BTW, witeowl, this was a perfect example of how if you touch someone's wheel, _you_ are the one who's going to crash, probably not the person you touched. But I agree with everyone else- if you don't want to appear to be lagging/flagging, you can't keep a bike length between you and the bike ahead. Maybe you could practice at the back of the line, where there isn't any pressure on you, and get closer and closer to the bike ahead as you gain confidence. The group has to be reliable, though- you have to be able to trust them to inform you of slowing, stopping, road hazards, etc. There shouldn't be anyone slamming on their brakes in a paceline. If you start to catch up the rider ahead to an uncomfortable distance for you, just drift left a bit and catch some wind to slow down a bit while continuing to pedal softly, then drift back over. An experienced rider behind you will see what is going on and not rush to fill in the gap.

Or ride in a more relaxed group, if there is one available.

Nanci

[bluerider]

OK, I didn't want to hijack this thread (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=9028), but the following statement made me remember my last few rides with the LBC:



Now, I'll ride at what I consider a safe distance from the person in front of me. In fact, if I get any closer, I'm afraid that they're going to brake and I'm going to clip them and we're both going down.

Invariably, I get passed by someone, and he rejoins the group RIGHT in front of me, so I have to slow down so that I'm at what I consider a safe distance.

Rinse and repeat until I'm at the back of the pack, but not because I can't keep up. :mad: (Hills, of course, are an exception. A turtle with one leg can pass me then.)

But on the flats and shallow hills, it's really kind of irritating. Why do they do this? Can they not stand the thought of being behind a fat chick? You'd think I'd create plenty of draft behind me! :rolleyes: I just don't get it, and it's really a bit irritating...

OK, you can go back to your regularly scheduled happy posts.

Hi witeowl,

I understand your frustration but I really don't believe the riders in your group are doing this on purpose. I ride very close to the wheel ahead of me because I trust the rider in front of me. You have to trust the rider in front of you. If you're a new rider, I can understand the hesitation but as you ride more often with the group, it's important you develop this trust.

A gap in the peleton has a ripple effect, as you accelerate each time to catch up, the riders behind you have to do as well. At the end of the day, you have to preserve the pack. I do think the other riders should provide some friendly instruction. When I first started I was told time and time again to stay on the front rider's wheel and not to accelerate through turns etc.

Don't get too frustrated and keep at it. Happy riding!

[KnottedYet]

I ride my myself most of the time, and always keep a few bike lengths between me and the strangers in front of me on the bike trail.

Seems like that's the right thing for me to be doing in this case.

Now, if I get riding with some experienced folks who I know and trust, I'll ask them to teach me how to ride in a pace line, and I'll be closer to them.

The last time I was in a group ride the person ahead of me was all over the road and wobbling/bobbing around. Scared me and the cars sharing the road. I stayed well back, it seemed dangerous to be any closer. Even though it meant I was bringing up the rear.

[witeowl]

OK, I think some of you hit on some really good points, some of which nick my ego a bit more than just blaming it on machismo (yes, they are all men that do this), but it may be time to face facts on this point.

First, I don't have a full bike length between the rear wheel of the person ahead of me and my front wheel. Really, I think it's just a few inches, but I might be misjudging.

Also, when this happens, we're more in a pack than a paceline, so that leads a bit to the probable heart of the matter: I may not ride as "straight" as I should. Perhaps, as at least one of you alluded to, they may be passing me because I make them nervous by being a bit squirrly.

Definately something to work on - and thanks for the friendly and honest perspective, all.

(Woe is me that my first footrace (only 2 miles) is on the same day as the LBC's beginner's ride! I probably could learn a lot about pack riding and pacelines, not to mention other ettiquette!)

Oh, but hey - here's a(nother) stupid question (I can hijack my own thread, right? :D) : I know that drafting makes riding easier on the person behind, but does it make it harder on the person in front?

[bcipam]

Yes the front person carries most of the effort which is why riders in a paceline rotate giving the lead a rest. Front goes to back, number two moves up to front. If you watch professional cycling this is a beautiful art form especially if it's windy - paceline rotates almost constantly.

[pyxichick]

Now I'm a little confused.

Everyone I've asked has told me that the front rider does not work any harder if someone is drafting. They take turns because the front person gets tired faster because they're the only one in the group NOT drafting off someone else.

I've also been told that drafting reduces the amount of effort required by about 30 percent.

Anyone else have any facts about this?

[Granny]

Hey lady,

You are welcome to join me on the Franktown road loop some early Sunday morning...there always seems to be one or two guys going the other way, but they just wave. And because I am a BGRaB, haven't found a jersey that doesn't make me look like the Pillsbury dough boy, and have to ride sitting upright no one takes me too seriously.
Have you done any Procrastinating Pedlers rides? I once did a hike with the S.C.; it was a race to the top...forget about pausing to look at the beautiful scenery. So, now I am leery of the groups. I was doing the Mayberry loop out on West 4th one morning when all these very serious bikers went flying past....turned out the be the PP group ride that day. I am very focused on improving my skills, and body, but just don't have that competative edge any more I guess. Or, maybe I am content with just competing against myself. The pictures on your blog were great; I was just there Sunday; my alternative chuch! Let me know if you would be interested in hooking up for a ride, I promise not to cut in front of you.

[Eden]

Now I'm a little confused.

Everyone I've asked has told me that the front rider does not work any harder if someone is drafting. They take turns because the front person gets tired faster because they're the only one in the group NOT drafting off someone else.

I've also been told that drafting reduces the amount of effort required by about 30 percent.

Anyone else have any facts about this?

Yes - you are correct, the person in the front does not work any harder when they have someone drafting them than they would have to if they were alone.

[Pedal Wench]

In fact, I've heard that the person riding in the front gets a slight benefit too - something like 5%, because if the reduction of turbulance pulling them back.

[bcipam]

Yes - you are correct, the person in the front does not work any harder when they have someone drafting them than they would have to if they were alone.

I think the confusion is maybe my first response - the front rider does not get the benefit of the draft so it's like he or she were out riding alone which means he or she is working harder than those that are drafting. Those behind the lead riders get a 30% reduction in their effort so there is great benefit in drafting and this explains why the lead always rotates out and everyone should take a turn pulling.

By pulling other riders, the effort is not increase - in otherwords the drafting riders do not cause anymore effort, but the lead rider gets no benefit or help.

Clear? Best way to understand is to go out with some friends and try it. You will understand its better to be the draftee than the draftor! :)

[Eden]

I think the confusion is maybe my first response - the front rider does not get the benefit of the draft so it's like he or she were out riding alone which means he or she is working harder than those that are drafting. Those behind the lead riders get a 30% reduction in their effort so there is great benefit in drafting and this explains why the lead always rotates out and everyone should take a turn pulling.

By pulling other riders, the effort is not increase - in otherwords the drafting riders do not cause anymore effort, but the lead rider gets no benefit or help.

Clear? Best way to understand is to go out with some friends and try it. You will understand its better to be the draftee than the draftor! :)

Believe me at 5ft I probably understand the benefits of drafting better than most. I can get what most people need a peleton for out of one nice large person out front. :D If you look at my ITT results I'm not necessarily the strongest rider out there, but I generally do well in road races because I can take advantage of the group - or even just a few in a break. Even when I take my turn at the front, when I rotate off I get a bigger rest than the poor person who has to follow me.

I have seen many people under the misconception that a drafter in some way holds you back. They complain about unwanted drafters at large events. There are legitimate reasons for not wanting someone right on your wheel, but thinking that they are hurting your performance in any way isn't one of them. If you give someone permission to draft don't be too bugged if your pace pressures them more than they can handle on the front. I draft my husband often. His pace is just fine for me if I can stay tucked in behind - but often more than I can handle if you toss me out in the wind. If I draft him continuously we both get a good workout.

Some of that confusion may come from racing commentary. Yes its true that in a race "sitting in" on a break is detrimental to the break. That rider may get to the front and intentionally slow the pace or break up the rhythm of the paceline. Or a person may just sit in and while she isn't really slowing the pace if she worked the break could possibly be going faster.

[li10up]

In fact, I've heard that the person riding in the front gets a slight benefit too - something like 5%, because if the reduction of turbulance pulling them back.
They talked about that on OLN during the TdF. Lead rider gets some but very little benefit of someone drafting off of him/her. Those close to the front have about a 30% reduction in their effort and those in the large pack have even more of a benefit. Drafting is so cool. It's amazing how the person in front can just be spinning away and to stay on their wheel you can be coasting at times.

[RoadRaven]

BTW, witeowl, this was a perfect example of how if you touch someone's wheel, _you_ are the one who's going to crash, probably not the person you touched.
Nanci

This is exactly what caused the crash a couple of months ago in our club that led to the death of one of our members a few days later.
Remember to be careful about how you follow the rider in front because it is very easy to put yourself in hospital - or worse.