Neck MRI results

[Catrin]

So I got the results, the short version is that my neck is shot. No surprise. Severe foraminal stenosis with possible nerve root impingement, a bulging disk (different location), etc., etc. Seeing my medical peeps to determine which of my physical activities are less likely to cause problems. Ugh. Oh well, my OD was quite certain the MRI would show something like this given my symptoms.

[OakLeaf]

Ugh Catrin, so sorry to hear that. What a time you've had.

I know you're very reluctant to have any more surgery, with good reason AFAIC, but stenosis is one of the VERY few things that I might consider surgery for it if were me. Hope you and your doctors can come up with a plan.

Hugs to you.

[Catrin]

Ugh Catrin, so sorry to hear that. What a time you've had.

I know you're very reluctant to have any more surgery, with good reason AFAIC, but stenosis is one of the VERY few things that I might consider surgery for it if were me. Hope you and your doctors can come up with a plan.

Hugs to you.

Thanks Oakleaf. For this I AM spending some time on "Dr Google" - focusing on reputable sites - so my imagination has less room to run wild before seeing my chiro and DO (tomorrow and Friday). I also just made the mistake of re-reading the entire report and counting the number of bulging cervical disks (3), and all of the OTHER things going on with the disk where the severe stenosis is. Ugh. Time for hot chocolate, a soothing audiobook + some knitting I think.

[Pax]

Dang, Catrin, that stinks! Guess we should have been couch potatoes like my SIL, her version of exercise is walking to the fridge... but her danged joints still work.

[Crankin]

I am sorry, Catrin. But, I would be taking the same approach as you. Study, read, and consult with the docs you trust. And, I do agree with Oakleaf. You are too young to give it up.
Sometimes I wonder if my body would not be in pain most of the time if I just sat on the couch, went to the mall, and maybe took a walk...

[shootingstar]

So I got the results, the short version is that my neck is shot. No surprise. Severe foraminal stenosis with possible nerve root impingement, a bulging disk (different location), etc., etc. Seeing my medical peeps to determine which of my physical activities are less likely to cause problems. Ugh. Oh well, my OD was quite certain the MRI would show something like this given my symptoms.

What causes this condition, Catrin?

[Catrin]

What causes this condition, Catrin?

Lots of things that include aging, trauma, osteoarthritis.

I've had to dial things back this past month or so due to neck and shoulder pain, but I CAN at least still hike, use the ArcTrainer at the gym, and do heavy kettlebell swings. I will be working with my peeps to figure out the best approach for exercise - I'm sure pressing and overhead kettlebell sport lifts are out of the question. I won't consider surgery at this point, I don't know anyone who has only had ONE spine-related surgery. Also, from what I've read, it is progressive and quite often returns a few years after the surgery. It may eventually be necessary but **** ** I'm still recovering from my knee surgery in July!

On the other hand, it DOES explain why I've been totally incapable of building upper body strength. The nerve root in question is associated with my problem scapula and other things related to upper body strength, it's all related. I had no idea THAT was neurological, I did know the radiating pain and numbness was - that is why I had to give up riding. Between neck injuries and arthritis I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. The mere idea that I might eventually need to see a neurosurgeon is rather chilling, that sounds SERIOUS! My RN sister has already told me that I should have someone in mind just in case things deteriorate. Thanks sis...

[snapdragen]

Welcome to the club? Not something I'd wish on anyone, I had surgery in 2008 for my neck issues. It worked out well for me, but I will still say, explore all your options. Good luck Catrin.

[Catrin]

Welcome to the club? Not something I'd wish on anyone, I had surgery in 2008 for my neck issues. It worked out well for me, but I will still say, explore all your options. Good luck Catrin.

Thanks Snap, I had forgotten that, you mentioned it after my mountain-bike crash induced neck injury in 2011 that had permanent repercussions & eventually took me off the bike. Glad to hear that it worked out for you! I certainly won't rush in that direction. As this is a structural change there aren't many options but hopefully there are other options for now.

[rocknrollgirl]

I am really sorry to read this. It stinks. My brother has had neck surgery successfully. He was a motocross racer, and his was really bad. I can ask him exactly what he had done if you want. More info perhaps.

[Catrin]

My Chiro told me this morning that even severe stenosis is slow-moving. Even surgery isn't guaranteed to make me symptom free and it would permenantly remove the option of some of my favorite activities (kettlebell sport lifting/competitive lifts). The symptoms are certainly there, but liveable. He advises dropping back to just hiking and kettlebell swings for 6 months to see if that nerve calms and symptoms relent. I suspect my Dr will concur, if not then it might be time to see a neurosurgeon.

There really aren't many other options for this but I don't see the need to rush. He said if I were to show that report to most any surgeon that they would scare me into surgery within 10 minutes. I think he is probably right.

[snapdragen]

Yes! That's exactly what my neurosurgeon said..."Well, I am a surgeon, so you know what I'm going to recommend". But that was after a lot of PT, Pain Management Dr visits, etc. my PCP sent me to the surgeon as a last resort.

[Catrin]

My Osteopath laid it out for me today. He isn't concerned about my symptoms, but about the possible death of the impinged nerve and some other things in the MRI that has him concerned about my loosing at least partial use of my bad arm.

He then proceeded to show me just how weak I really am, apparently I've learned how to adapt well and how to get my body to assist. Kettlebell lifting is an all body activity, I knew I was weaker than I should be at my activity level but didn't know I was THAT weak. He think the mtb crash fed into this, it isn't all new. So I will let them do further tests for more information, it is only prudent. They have my attention.

To top it all off, I've a small meniscus tear in the knee that just had surgery.

Officially I am now limited to walking, hiking, and cardio machines that don't hurt. I think I need ice cream...

[Pax]

And wine.

Damn

[Crankin]

Be nice to yourself... ice cream and a beer might be ordered here. But, keep your good attitude. You can still do more than what most people ever do... and keep researching.

[ny biker]

I'm sorry about the diagnosis, Catrin, but I hope you and your medical team are able to make the best of it. Absolutely yes to that ice cream -- something decadent.

Does the gym where you do the kettle bells have recumbent stationary bikes? I know stationary bikes are not the most exciting things, but if your knee can handle it, it might be another cardio activity that you can do, especially in winter or on rainy days. Years ago I used to ride a stationary recumbent for an hour at a time, doing crossword puzzles to keep myself entertained. Maybe you could knit?

[Catrin]

Thanks for the kind words, I've already had a decadent spiced latte and I will likely have a glass of wine tonight. Kind of sad how mild my "treats" are in times like this, but I can't help but to think of my lower activity level. My weight is already 2 pounds higher than I prefer (has been for a month or two). I need to not fall into the trap of starving myself since I am not able to be as active as I want to be, it will be challenging.

I've my own kettlebell herd at home - I will need to somehow camouflage it so I will be less likely to play with them :o My favorite gym does have 2 machines I CAN use without pain (ArcTrainer and the name of the other escapes me right now) - and another I can use without pain IF I am careful - it is like a semi-seated elliptical/recumbent. Stationary bikes are out for me, sadly.

Crankin, you are so right, regardless I can do more than some, it could be worse. Hopefully I can prevent it from being worse but time will tell.

[ny biker]

It's good that there are a few machines you can use. Sometimes I like to combine cardio machines in a workout -- 10 or 20 minutes on one, then 10 or 20 (or 30) on another. It helps to break up the routine. If you want music and don't already have an mp3 player, I recommend the Sansa Clip -- tiny, inexpensive, the clip holds well to various pieces of clothing, easy to use.

[OakLeaf]

Hang in there, Catrin.

[salsabike]

Hey, Catrin. I have had to reinvent my athletic self several times---the first time, after having been a dancer for about 12 years and then developing fibromyalgia; the second, and more recently, having to quit triathlons because of tendon damage that makes running verboten. I would just say that you WILL find ways through this and around this, and that you will find new athletic doors that you'll be able to walk through. You have my heartfelt sympathy and support in this.

[Catrin]

Hey, Catrin. I have had to reinvent my athletic self several times---the first time, after having been a dancer for about 12 years and then developing fibromyalgia; the second, and more recently, having to quit triathlons because of tendon damage that makes running verboten. I would just say that you WILL find ways through this and around this, and that you will find new athletic doors that you'll be able to walk through. You have my heartfelt sympathy and support in this.
Thanks Salsabike, your comments and all the others are appreciated. You know, I was sedentary until I learned to ride in 2010 for my 50th.

I do wish I had discovered at a much earlier age that I enjoyed playing outside but that is how it goes. I can STILL hike easy trails, and if all goes well, the KB break is only temporary. My coach is talking with my Chiro to see what other movements might be safe.

Trying to figure out how far I can safely push the knee with the meniscus tear. It's never felt good since the surgery so it's hard to go by feel. It will all work out as things do, so I will stop whining and go to bed :D

[Crankin]

I hope you wake up feeling rested! I know how discouraging it is when our bodies rebel. My story is a lot like Salsa's, so I get it. I think the key is to just not stop moving.

[Catrin]

I hope you wake up feeling rested! I know how discouraging it is when our bodies rebel. My story is a lot like Salsa's, so I get it. I think the key is to just not stop moving.

I had a decent night's sleep, those two glasses of 10 year aged tawny port and dark chocolate helped :cool:

I agree, the point is to not stop doing everything. So if all I can do is to walk, then walk I will. Inside, outside, on the ArcTrainer, whatever. Hopefully we can find other things that I can do. The meniscus tear has me stumped, can't figure out how I did it but I've an idea WHEN as I think back - hopefully my work on the ArcTrainer won't hurt that. I THINK it's non-impact. Unsure if I agree with my doctor on his problem with kettlebell swings (he doesn't think that I'm in complete control of my arms and that I might hurt myself in other ways because of the pendulum movement), but it's food for thought.

[Pax]

Glad you got some sleep! And such a lovely way to get it. :D

[salsabike]

To amuse and inspire you, here is my favorite image about this. My husband found it on the internet some months ago (we've searched and searched but can't find an attribution) and said to me, "This totally reminds me of what you do when you've been injured. You may have to change what you do but you NEVER GIVE UP." Best compliment I ever got. :)

17926

I figure if we can do our best to keep that kind of attitude as long as we can...we'll keep figuring out something we can do. We might not know what it is today. But we'll find it.

[Catrin]

Great image Salsa, thanks. Yeah, I totally agree with that attitude :D

My coach told me of someone he once knew who wound up in a body cast for some period of time. He was in pretty good condition when they finally released him from it, he had focused on a regime of deliberate muscle contractions and it worked well to prevent his muscles from atrophy. We will keep figuring it out!

[azfiddle]

Just saw this Catrin. Wow- it all sounds pretty overwhelming. No advice but a big hug.

[FlyingScot]

2001 Herniated C3-4, herniated C 4-5, herniated and ruptured C 5-6, bulging C 6-7. Severe foraminal stenosis with spinal cord compression. Neural root compression. Severe radiculopathy. Complete reversal of my lordotic curve. The initial injury happened in June. By the time I went to the doctor in October I had irreversible nerve damage. This isn't something that gets better. I ended up in emergency surgery to decompress my spinal cord (discectomy and fusion with cadaver bone) I have almost constant nerve pain and a left-sided weakness which might have been prevented had I not been so stubborn and taken care of things sooner. Things I can still do;cycle, hike, race sailboats, downhill ski, skate, rock climb, rappel, swim, highland dance, Olympic style weight lifting, circuit train, Zumba. Things I can't do; ummmm nothing. What changes have I made? I can do everything I want to do but I have to be more mindful of using good body positioning and mechanics. So now you know at least one person for whom surgery was successful. :)

And I wanted to address the kettle ball thing. Because you will not know when your grip has become too weak I would not recommend any swing type exercises with this equipment. Not only can you hurt yourself but you could potentially hurt someone else if your grip breaks and you send it flying.

[Catrin]

Wow Flying Scot, just wow! So glad you're doing so well 15 years later after all that!

My situation has been long-term. It looks like that only real difference between you in 2001 and me now is I've only one herniation, the other disks are bulging only - outside of that our MRI results look remarkably similar. Apparently the herniation + nerve root compression are in an unusual place - leave it to me! Next is a neurological consult that will include a nerve/muscle interaction test to attempt to determine how permenant my damage may already be, and also to help us determine how quickly that surgery needs to be done :eek: I won't accept any bets of sooner over later...

I've had neurological symptoms since my MTB injury in 2011 and they've checked things from time to time. Sometimes I think having a high tolerance for pain and being stubborn can work against us as well as for us. I DO ignore things, especially if I don't want to hear the answer. I really didn't think things had progressed this far however, but such is life. Thanks for sharing your experience with me, it IS good to hear of your positive outcome.

[emily_in_nc]

Wow Catrin, so sorry to hear this news. My father-in-law had pretty severe cervical stenosis some years back. He was a woodcarver, gardener, and a very handy fix-it type guy, plus lifted weights at the Y and cycled. The stenosis eventually weakened his hands and caused numbness and tingling to the point that he could do almost none of his favorite activities. He did finally have the surgery and was much improved thereafter. He was a lot older than you when he reached that point, though, in his 70s.

I am sorry you are having to go through yet another limitation in your activities -- seems like you have given at the office already! :-(

[Catrin]

Thanks Emily, I must admit that it feels like I've a LOT going on to be only 56. However I don't give up, and I'm a lot better off than some. I suspect the surgery won't wait for my 70's though :o I am not saying much at work about it until there is more information.

Where do I apply for a neck transplant?

[Catrin]

As it turns out I DON'T have a meniscus tear :cool: SOME good news at last! I do have a neurosurgeon visit in a couple of weeks, time will tell how this develops. One thing is sure, there will need to be a LOT more information before I allow a neck surgery. I appreciate and am thankful for all of the helpful and supportive comments. I AM feeling a bit less depressed about this, basically just trying to get it out of my head until there is more information.

[Crankin]

That is great news, Catrin.
Stay warm.

[Pax]

Excellent news!! Getting that off your plate at this point is just wonderful.

[OakLeaf]

Thank goodness for a little good news.

Take good care.

[Catrin]

I am ignoring the permenant restrictions he placed me on as he released me fromm the knee surgery, it is what it is. I will give it a year from the surgery and then determine if a second opinion is needed for that.

[Crankin]

Good for you. I wish more physicians would understand those of us who lead an active lifestyle. When they issue permenant restrictions, it's done with no thought of the individual...

[Catrin]

Good for you. I wish more physicians would understand those of us who lead an active lifestyle. When they issue permenant restrictions, it's done with no thought of the individual...
Well, he did...it HURTS to both kneel and squat which is why he restricted it. I had the sense that he was frustrated but workman's comp will only allow him to do so much. So I will keep up with my PT exercises, test periodically. and if it's still a problem in July will consider having a 2nd opinion.

[Crankin]

Duh, don't do squats if it hurts!
But permanent is a long time...
I would do exactly what you are doing.

[Pax]

I am ignoring the permenant restrictions he placed me on as he released me fromm the knee surgery, it is what it is. I will give it a year from the surgery and then determine if a second opinion is needed for that.

After my 2010 knee surgery the doc gave me a list of permanent restrictions, including no more bike riding, ever. I sold my beloved 7.5FX at a big loss and became even more sedentary... and promptly gained more weight. A couple of years later I see a different doc and he tells me I should be riding and swimming for fitness. *sigh*

[salsabike]

These days, I pick my doctors to be athletes. Both my family doc clinic--all runners, hikers, mountain climbers, riders--and the ankle surgeons I consulted when I found the tendon damage--are also very used to working with athletes, so they know how to advise us well in that context.

[Crankin]

Yup, that is exactly where I am at. I chose a much younger and active primary care doctor and my PT is a cyclist, runner, and x country skier. I was tired of being told to "ride 5 miles" by overweight men, my age, who can't comprehend my lifestyle.

[Pax]

I tried that route, chose a doctor who was team physician for the university basketball team. He treated me like a busted up old lady, no respect, no regard, no interest in my fitness. Very frustrating experience.

[Crankin]

I also eliminated any providers that seemed to treat me a certain way because of my birthdate. I tried to get my good friend's doc, who is younger, but is a runner. He was full, so the one I chose in the same group who seemed to have an emphasis on prevention... I think that a lot of providers are so used to seeing older people in really bad medical shape, that when one of us comes in with a sports/ortho injury, it doesn't register to them that what we do is extremely important for our physical and mental health in many ways. I speak up and let them know, and if they don't get it, I am done.

[OakLeaf]

I tried that route, chose a doctor who was team physician for the university basketball team. He treated me like a busted up old lady, no respect, no regard, no interest in my fitness. Very frustrating experience.

Hmm. My chiropractor "up north" treats varsity athletes at a top-ranked Div 1-A program. My "southern" chiropractor treats a handful of professional athletes (NBA and MLB) as their personal physician in their off-seasons. Never got that kind of vibe from either of them.

Back when I was younger, starting with the knee I sprained when I was 16 and up through the hand injury I had about 10 years ago, I had a whole list of injuries wind up with complications because I followed MDs' advice to rest and stay off it. I'm just pretty much done with them ...

[ny biker]

I find that it's hit or miss in terms of finding doctors who know what to do with a patient who exercises. The exception is my gynecologist, because we both work out with the same personal trainer. Otherwise there seems to be no reliable information available before making the appointment. I was just lucky to find a pulmonologist who is unphased by my activity level. When I had the paralyzed vocal cord problem last year I would have been lost without him, since the ENT I went to had no concept of how to treat an active patient and refused to believe me when I said that it was affecting my ability to breathe when I rode my bike. When I went to an orthopedic surgeon some years back for a knee problem, two days prior to a riding a very hilly century, I was relieved that he said "let's give you something to get you through this weekend" rather than "I'm sorry but you can't do that bike ride" -- when I made the appointment I had no idea how he would treat me.

Great news about the meniscus, Catrin.

[Catrin]

I've been pretty good in recent years at not meeting that attitude, but my PCP is an OD and my chiro specializes in sports medicine. Of course that still doesn't mean they don't look at my birthday, and my chiro DOES remind me that I don't have the neck of a 26 year old. All in all I feel fortunate. So now I'm faced with figuring out how far to push my exercise until we get more information - enough but not too far. I just CAN'T sit on the couch until Feb and however long it takes to get those tests completed.

[Aromig]

I always find the sports medicine people the best. I'm in my mid-40s, work at a professional desk job, and am "curvy" (my nice way of saying overweight) but still really really active. I'm always relieved to find someone who helps me maintain my activity levels, without just having the knee-jerk reaction of saying "don't be so active."

[salsabike]

So one thing I did when I went to see ankle surgeons two years ago about the posterior tibial tendon dysfunction might interest you all, because it's very germane to everyone's concerns. I wrote a one-page summary and asked them to read it before we talked. The summary basically said:

"I have recently been diagnosed with posterior tibial tendon syndrome, stage 1 or early stage 2. My goal in coming here is to get a comprehensive understanding of all of my options for treating this, before it deteriorates further. It is very important to me that I be able to stay as active as I am now....

(description of symptoms, MRI results, etc.)

I am a 60-year-old athlete who is 40 pounds overweight. I have worked very hard to take the weight off, and several times have lost 20-25 lbs., and have gained some of it back. I am very aware of the weight effect on my body, care about it, and work to change it, with variable results. It is just as important for me to say here that I am nonetheless very active and plan to be very active as long as I possibly can until the day I die...

[a list of what I do annually since 2005: ride 2500-3000 miles a year, 8-9 miles hikes with 1500 ft. elevation gain. That I've done 8 sprint triathlons and three Olympics since 2008, and maintained a typical weekly triathlon training schedule with a coach, until this injury in 2014. That from about 1976-1991, I took 6-12 hours of ballet class a week; had to quit because I developed fibromyalgia; took medication for the resulting severe chronic muscle pain that made me gain a huge amount of weight and ended up changing my weight set point, so it is harder to lose and keep off weight now.]

And ending with this:

I can’t imagine not being able to hike and ride, especially...I write this so you will understand that being very active is a huge part of my life and that conversations about posterior tib tendon syndrome treatment need to recognize that as a priority concern of mine. Thanks."

The ankle surgeons I saw--one who is on the Seattle Seahawks' orthopedics team and one who is on the Washington Huskies' orthopedics team--took me very seriously and treated me with respect. I am not sure that would have happened without presenting this letter first.

So...just a tool for you all to think about using when the stakes are high and you're really worried.

[OakLeaf]

That's a great way to go. Still, I think the #1 effect would be to screen out the 75-80% of doctors who (in my experience) wouldn't bother to read it before walking into the exam room.

(To be fair - some doctors really do want to do better, but insurance companies constrain almost all of them. The choice in today's world for a doctor is either to administer a treatment code that matches the diagnosis code in the insurance company's flow chart - which, treatment codes encompass the duration of a visit - or, to stop accepting insurance entirely, and treat only those who can afford it. That works for some specialties just fine, particularly primary care, but not so much for a surgeon. I've talked with my psychiatrist quite a bit about this. After several bouts in and out of corporate medicine, once she'd paid off her student loans, she took a sabbatical and then came back to practicing but not accepting insurance. It distresses her a lot, not to be able to treat middle and low income patients, but not as much as giving poor care to all her patients distressed her when she did accept insurance.)


My massage therapist was asking me about my resting heart rate yesterday, which made me think of a way to characterize people like us:

"My age is greater than my resting heart rate." :D :D

[Catrin]

I like the letter and agree with Oakleaf. My problem is I've no knowledge of the neuro my DO is sending me to, and HE is new enough to the area that he doesn't yet have a local spine - doc favorite. The practice appears to be a small one, which isn't a bad thing. It IS part of a local major hospital but I can't find out much information outside of that. They appear to focus on thier patients more than thier website. Again, not a bad thing and i think neurosurgery is a smaller field than some.

So I will go on Feb 9, and present a similar letter when I drop off my images and paperwork prior to my visit. I DO have 2 others in mind for a second opinion if they advise immediate surgery as I suspect they will.

[Crankin]

Oak, I know this is getting off topic, but I really feel squeezed by the insurance situation you describe in my own work. A lot of the private practice therapists here have gone to not accepting insurance. They charge between 100-300 per hour. Now, I know there are enough people who can pay that, especially since many don't want any record of seeing a therapist. But, I have a problem with it. I don't think I could do that, yet I don't want to deal with insurance companies, so I am staying at the clinic. I keep thinking that I couldn't stay there, if DH didn't have a good income, as my income is so small, that this really is my "give back" career. It's a no-win situation. The only benefit is that I have a lot of clients, with professional jobs, with very good insurance. They can't or won't pay the private practice rates, so they come to the clinic, which is exactly what I would do now (although I had a private practice therapist who took insurance). Thus, we have an extremely diverse practice, in terms of SES and culture.
I say this as I am getting ready to go off for my annual physical, with my carefully chosen doctor!

[Aromig]

Such a letter is a GREAT idea!

When I started having pain while running last year, I went to a new ortho doctor. I decided to try someone new because the ortho doctor who was treating my broken leg four years ago (a torsion fracture of my tibia from stepping in a hole after running out a parachute landing :-)) repeatedly just told me that I might not ever be 100% again. The first thing this new doctor did was ask "so tell me about your typical week, what do you do?" I told him about running and cycling and yoga. He asked how many hours of each. Instead of judging me by how I look or what my job is, he said "well, endurance athletes are sometimes the hardest to treat because all of you seem to run/ride right through the pain and aren't good at judging when to stop. I will make you a deal, I promise you that I will get you out there and up to normal activity levels as soon as I can if you promise me to be honest about your pain."

I was tickled pink that he called me an endurance athlete (and then I wondered why I didn't call myself that? I do 4 or 5 centuries each summer and a lot of longer rides as well).

[Catrin]

I dropped off my images and paperwork at the neurosurgeons office yesterday for next week. I did decide to write a letter, and so I did.

[OakLeaf]

Hope they take your concerns seriously and can come up with a plan that works for you.

Aromig, I missed your post earlier, sounds like you got a good one!

[Catrin]

Come to find out, both the person who read my MRI and my doctor over-reacted to the findings. The neurosurgeon said there wasn't anything in it that was not age-appropriate and he didn't see any stenosis. He said many who read MRIs do err on the side of caution. He DOES, however, think I've some peripheral nerve issues, and has ordered an EMG to see if we can figure out what's going on. He thinks I've some peripheral neuropathy but we need to chase it down. Many things can cause that, and I don't know what can be done about it, but it's a big relief that some big neck surgery is no longer looming! I probably need a neurologist rather than a surgeon, but we will see what the outcome of the test is. So I will start to ramp things back up a bit, just not do those things that causes my arms to go numb :-)

[OakLeaf]

That's great news!

Hope the EMG isn't too painful, and that it gives your doctor some good info and a path toward a plan.

[Pax]

Whew, good news!!

[Crankin]

I had an EMG and it was not the worst thing I've had... You can handle it.

[Catrin]

Thanks for the heads-up that it might be painful...the online references I checked out mentioned nothing about pain... Oh well, I'm a tough old bird :eek:

BTW, I had heard that neurosurgeons tend to be very terse, that was certainly no exaggeration! Very hard to talk to, but he was very clear in what little he did say. I've friends in that speciality field who says he is very good, and as odd as the conversation was, I walked out feel good about everything and not just because he told me what I had hoped to hear.

[snapdragen]

I've had a couple of EMGs, not horribly painful. Glad to hear about the neurosurgeon visit, no surgery is good. Mine called my MRI "impressive", I found out later that was not a good thing. :D

[Catrin]

I've had a couple of EMGs, not horribly painful. Glad to hear about the neurosurgeon visit, no surgery is good. Mine called my MRI "impressive", I found out later that was not a good thing. :D

Yes, I don't think we WANT to hear a surgeon say that word :-) Interestingly enough, my KB coach AND chiropractor both have been telling me they thought it likely to not actual be my neck that is really causing the problems - and my coach really thought it related to nerve problems in/around my right shoulder. We will see how close he is. The interesting thing about today is the neurosurgeon really didn't seem to want to hear about symptoms - though I guess a neurosurgeon really isn't actually treating symptoms but a specific pathology. Not the same thing.

[snapdragen]

Neurosurgeons are interesting, they have all these little magic tricks. I remember thinking all the stuff he did showed nothing, then I read his report. Dang, I didn't even walk right! My gait was all messed up.

[Catrin]

Neurosurgeons are interesting, they have all these little magic tricks. I remember thinking all the stuff he did showed nothing, then I read his report. Dang, I didn't even walk right! My gait was all messed up.

We are going to speak again early next month after the EMG, we will see what he says then. He did see many of the same things as the MRI report said, just not the stenosis or nerve root compression. You do have to wonder how two people saw such different things - but he IS the specialist... Hopefully the EMG will tell us what is going on.

[Catrin]

Waiting to hear about EMG and next neuro consult. Meanwhile I've strained both bicep and deltoid on that side...it gets frustrating. I just want to be active!

[Pax]

Waiting to hear about EMG and next neuro consult. Meanwhile I've strained both bicep and deltoid on that side...it gets frustrating. I just want to be active!

It really does get frustrating, doesn't it. We want to be fit and active, but it seems everything we do aggravates something!

We are getting ready to buy kayaks again since the only part of me that seems to work well is from the waist up... truly hoping I don't strain anything up there.

[OakLeaf]

Catrin ... hang in there. Pax, hope the wind settles down soon - not very conducive to paddling right now! I got my face exfoliated by blowing sand, on the bridge today. :cool:

[Pax]

Catrin ... hang in there. Pax, hope the wind settles down soon - not very conducive to paddling right now! I got my face exfoliated by blowing sand, on the bridge today. :cool:

I'm surprised you didn't blow away, it's nuts out there!

[Catrin]

My umbrella broke from the wind on the walk to the office this morning.

[Crankin]

We've had the icy rain, now warm rain in the past 24 hours. It's foggy and going up to 55 degrees. We will be getting the wind later tomorrow and Friday.
Catrin, how did you strain the bicep and deltoid?

[Catrin]

Slushy snow tonight, ugh!

The strain is in the bicep, he said the deltoid/rotator cuff is quite tight. I keep tweaking that shoulder and I'm starting to suspect that my shoulder will be the real root of the problem, with something causing intermittent nerve impingement. The EMG came back normal (no definite signs of cervical radiculopathy or entrapment), which is GREAT! This means no permanent damage. All that numbness has to be coming from somewhere, so hopefully it was a good test and he knew what he was doing. I've read, and have been told, that the EMG test is as much an art as a science as it really matters who does the test and interprets the results as well.

I would much prefer a shoulder root to the problem rather than my jacked neck :rolleyes: Did I say the neurosurgeon saw NO sign of the "moderate to severe stenosis with nerve root compression" that the person did who originally read my MRI and only saw arthritis and a couple (mild) bulging discs? While I'm thankful, it's hard to see how one person sees "moderate to severe" stenosis and the second person sees none at all I'm going with the more optimistic of the two :-)

[OakLeaf]

Glad the delt and rotators are okay anyway ...

Yep, it's not surprising to me that indistinct two-dimensional images of a lot of complex structures don't necessarily get interpreted the same way. The surgeon probably took more factors into account than the radiologist did, too. Reading imaging is an art as much as the EMG is.

What's mind-boggling to me is how they're still discovering major body structures, like the anterolateral knee ligament, and last week's announcement of the fifth muscle in what we know as the quadriceps. Medical and nursing students have been physically dissecting cadavers for centuries, and surgeons and nurses have been physically cutting into, viewing and manipulating these structures, and yet they only saw what Grey's Anatomy taught them to see. :eek:


Stay warm!!

[Catrin]

I think there is something in the shoulder that is referring/making it easy to strain that bicep. I literally did NO work with the kettlebells for 2 days before the strained bicep let me know in no uncertain terms that it wasn't happy. Oh well, hopefully we will figure it out before I reach my out-of-pocket max for the year! I am done ignoring things, that hasn't served me well in recent years.

Good point Oakleaf, they are still learning things - which is pretty amazing to consider this includes new muscles! I can see smaller things, but like you, it's mind-boggling. It's also true the radiologist is going to say anything that MIGHT be wrong and allow the specialist to fine-tune the results. I'm sure radiologists are subject to malpractice litigation as much as any medical professional is.

[OakLeaf]

I hesitate to describe anything as cause and effect, since it's all interrelated, but I wonder if your pec minor might be involved in your bicep issues. Mine definitely is. It's a troublesome muscle for a lot of people, and both the pec minor and the short head of the bicep attach to the coracoid.

[Blueberry]

Medical and nursing students have been physically dissecting cadavers for centuries, and surgeons and nurses have been physically cutting into, viewing and manipulating these structures, and yet they only saw what Grey's Anatomy taught them to see. :eek:

Medical schools are cutting dissection time. We have 9 to a cadaver now, and we learn much of the structure from pre-dissected cadaver demonstrations. When we do dissect, it's very guided - cut here, find this. Not look for that other thing. Not that structures shouldn't have been found sooner - but dissection is a bit of an inexact science (as is surgery - believe me that surgeons don't go looking for extra things - nor does anyone want them to) and we just don't have the opportunity to explore at all with the curricular changes. It's sort of sad to me. I find dissection hard - physically and emotionally. The cadavers are an amazing gift, and I would love to be able to learn as much as I possibly can from them.

/end off topic discussion

[salsabike]

Medical schools are cutting dissection time. We have 9 to a cadaver now, and we learn much of the structure from pre-dissected cadaver demonstrations. When we do dissect, it's very guided - cut here, find this. Not look for that other thing. Not that structures shouldn't have been found sooner - but dissection is a bit of an inexact science (as is surgery - believe me that surgeons don't go looking for extra things - nor does anyone want them to) and we just don't have the opportunity to explore at all with the curricular changes. It's sort of sad to me. I find dissection hard - physically and emotionally. The cadavers are an amazing gift, and I would love to be able to learn as much as I possibly can from them.

/end off topic discussion

Really interesting, Blueberry. Thanks.

[OakLeaf]

Seems like anatomy is kind of analogous to what I've been reading about taxonomy. Everyone in a given field has to learn what past anatomists and taxonomists have described, but there's like zero funding for anyone to actually do taxonomy now, and I'm reading between the lines of what you said, plus the general state of the world, that there's probably not much funding for anyone to do anatomy, either.

Sigh.

I can imagine how hard it must be emotionally, to do dissections. I was having a hard time just being at the opposite end of a lecture hall from the overhead projector where they were showing us a lumbar section with its muscles and bones. I wonder if it's any easier for students from a culture where they're not as insulated from death as we are in the US.

+1, thanks - for your insight, and for your dedication.

/drift

[Catrin]

With the tight deltoid and rotator cuff I'm taking a couple days off to allow the strain to heal. I sure don't need a torn cuff from stubborness.

The drifting conversation is interesting. I can't imagine what it would be like to look inside/handle human internal parts. I can't even stand seeing someone else get an injection!

[ny biker]

I can't stand seeing me get an injection! But I have several nurses and EMTs in my family who somehow manage to handle far worse things.

I've recently been having pain in my left shoulder and arm, from the top front of the shoulder down about halfway to the elbow. It started happening after I started using the suspension training system that I got for Christmas. I had similar pain a few years ago that was caused by something I was doing at the gym, though I can't remember now what was causing it. I've taken a break from the suspension training but noticed that the pain got worse again after doing incline dumbbell presses at the gym.

Then the other day I was using a lacrosse ball to work out some tightness in my upper back (leaning my back against a wall with the lacrosse ball in between and rolling it around). The ball hit a really tight painful spot just inside the left shoulder blade. After that, the pain in my shoulder and arm went away -- pain-free full range of motion. A few days later the pain came back, I used the lacrosse ball again, and the pain went away.

I've had a similar experience with a tight muscles inside my right shoulder blade causing neck pain on my right side.

Which is all a long way of saying -- it can be really hard to tell why something is hurting and how to address it. I tend to get lazy about general stretching and working on tightness with a foam roller and lacrosse (or tennis) ball, but it really can be helpful.

[Catrin]

It certainly can be! Thankfully my Chiro is great at ferreting out muscle strains (and treating them) and addressing tight/knotted/etc muscles/fascia. He hasn't been wrong yet, may that continue! I see him first for anything muscular related and he isn't too proud to tell me when I need a different type of attention. A well qualified and experienced ART practicioner is truly worth his/her weight in gold, for sure.

Neurosurgeon in another week and a half, hopefully he will have a better idea where all my numbness is coming from.

[Pax]

Catrin, just found out if I get the job I'm up for (library position at Palmer College of Chiropractic) I get free full chiro services! So exciting to think they might be able to work with my tightness and gait issues.

[Crankin]

That is awesome!

[Catrin]

Pax, that is MOST excellent! Crossing my fingers for you :cool:

[Pax]

Thanks, it seems like a decent job and with benefits like that it would be hard to pass up!

[OakLeaf]

Pax, that's awesome. Not too terribly bad of a commute either. Sending hiring thoughts their way!

[Pax]

Thanks, Oak!

Just checked their website and the job announcement has been pulled, so fingers crossed for a call today!!

Catrin - took a walk on the beach this morning and holy cow is my hip tight. Can't wait to get that worked on, I'm guessing my new post surgery gait is bunging things up in an all new fashion.

[Catrin]

Could it have been the sand? That can't help, along with the new gait. Just curious.

[Pax]

Could it have been the sand? That can't help, along with the new gait. Just curious.

Could be, it's hard packed but still has some give, which feels good on the joints... but maybe it's harder on the gait. Who knows, stupid body.

BTW - I just got the call, I got the library job!!

[Catrin]

Awesome, congratulations!

[Crankin]

Congratulations, Pax! It sounds like a great fit.

[ny biker]

Yay Pax!!!

[OakLeaf]

Yayyyy Pax! When do you start?

[Pax]

Yayyyy Pax! When do you start?

He told me I could take as long as I needed to give notice elsewhere, but I'm not working right now... so I start Monday!

We spent the day up in Daytona (shudder) trying to find a couple of decent shirts for me to wear. I have almost no business casual clothes as I wore jeans and tshirts to work in the stacks previously. Found a few things so now I'm all good to go!

[Catrin]

This is just wonderful news, good luck next week! We just hired for a new position in my section, they've made great hiring decisions these last couple of years so am looking forward to the new staff member.

[emily_in_nc]

I just got the call, I got the library job!!

Woohoo! Happy dance for Pax! :-)

[Catrin]

Finally got SOME news! Apparently my neck pain is from arthritis rather than stenosis, and the neurological problems appear to be coming down to an intermittent pinched nerve in my "good" shoulder. NO neck surgery - and right now that is all I care about. I've had to modify my activities, again, to lessen my symptoms but if I DID have the surgery, I would have to make the very same modifications. I don't have to give up my kettlebells (whew), just no over-head work with them and my leg is finally strengthening so I can continue hiking. I can live with that :cool:

[OakLeaf]

That's good news! Hoping that your leg keeps getting stronger and you can re-align whatever's pinching that nerve. Stay determined!

[Crankin]

That is great news, Catrin. It was very wise to get all those different opinions.

[Catrin]

It was an expensive but helpful process. None if it would have happened if the MRI report hadn't been quite long and scary, my Dr was very concerned. Thankful to know than to guess so both coach and Chiro can help me out!

[Pax]

Good deal, Catrin! Always good to get some definitive info so you know what you're actually dealing with.

[emily_in_nc]

Glad for the follow-up, Catrin. I think nearly everyone ends up with at least some arthritis in their neck and lower back after a certain age... I know mine started young and continues (in my lumbar spine). Not sure about the cervical spine, but there's probably at least some there. My mother, age 81, has it bad enough in her lumbar spine that her doc told her, after a recent x-ray, that he was a amazed she was still walking around! And yet, she gets around pretty darn well for her age and fitness level (not good). But she does have back pain a lot of the time.

I'm so glad you can continue with hiking and kettlebells! You've given up enough already.

[Catrin]

I've had moderate to severe cervical spine arthritis for at least 5 years I know of...which is why I'm so active, and that isn't the only place. I've a large amount of symmetrical arthritis, so much they keep testing for something underlying all of it but, thankfully, nothing has yet been found to tie it all together. Guess I'm just prone to it!

[ny biker]

I'm glad you got good news, Catrin!!

I've started having pain in the knuckles of some fingers on my left hand which I guess is arthritis. I haven't been to a doctor about it yet, but after poking around on the Arthritis Foundation website I am trying to get more "anti-inflammatory" foods into my diet like oily fish and nuts.