Gov't Assistance: WIC, food stamps

[limewave]

I know this is a HIGHLY political topic. And I don't really care for politial debates at all and this is bound to stir one. I imagine I will regret posting this by morning. Anyways, . . .

I know a family that is on WIC and receives various government assistance. They have two kids and work minimum wage jobs. On top of food stamps they get cash assistance every month. Their daycare (the same daycare my kids attend) is paid for by the government and so is their healthcare (which is more comprehensive than my healthcare). And they also get a family membership to the YMCA (wish I could afford a membership). I know there is more assistance than this going on, but this is just what I know about. And then, I find out they had an $8,000 tax return. $8,000. Are they even paying taxes?

Is there any incentive for them to try and do better for themselves or to get off welfare? How do these programs work? I am hoping this post does not come across in the wrong way. This comes from a place of curiosity and wanting to understand (not a political stance).

[Pax]

A lot of those benefits can only run 60 months, from the birth of the first child. Once the 60 month clock runs out they will lose a lot of the cash assistance, daycare assistance, and in most states they will lose the adult healthcare.

[missjean]

I think what is happening is they pay taxes every pay check, but then they get it back.

From Wikipedia:
The United States federal earned income tax credit or earned income credit (EITC or EIC) is a refundable tax credit for low- and medium-income individuals and couples, primarily for those who have qualifying children. When the credit exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who qualify and claim the credit. That is, this credit is refundable. This tax credit is provided, in part, to offset the burden of social security taxes and to maintain an incentive to work.[1] It has also been part of political debates regarding whether to raise the minimum wage or whether to increase the earned income credit[citation needed], with the EIC being targeted to persons and couples taking care of children (with parents receiving preference over other family members).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

30 some years ago, when we didn't have two nickles to rub together, we got WIC coupons, but nothing else.

[Irulan]

I am financial POA for a relative who lives solely on disability and other benefits. They have disability, medicaid, foodstamps ($18 month)a HUD subsidy, and sometimes they get utility assistance.

These agencies have a series of complex formulas that they use to calculate benefits. The formulas are based on assets ( bank account balances), amount of rent paid, what utilities cost, medical bills, and some sort of perceived amount that you can have based on family size. The food stamp benefit is recalculated every two or three months.

I do not know anything about EIC, as this person survives on below poverty level and does not file taxes. Family size can affect everything. I'm surprised that they get a Y membership, but they may have applied for a scholarship benefit and gotten it that way. I do not know of any public benefits program, state or govt run that would pay for a membership like that.

Having assisted this person for several years, all I can say is that it's tough to make it if that is all you have. She unfortunately cannot work any longer due to a stroke, and the disability benefit is all she has. She's not even 50 yet.

[OakLeaf]

Um, if they're both working full time jobs, what else is it that you want them to do?

Even assuming there were jobs available (which for all the claims of "recovery," real statistics show there aren't), if they were to take second and third jobs as a lot of the working poor do, all that means is paying for more child care. Usually a net wash, or even a net loss, unless the child care is subsidized (which it probably wouldn't be anyway for a second job).


Your Y may offer a sliding scale or individually negotiated rates, if you think your family should qualify for a discount.

[Irulan]

Um, if they're both working full time jobs, what else is it that you want them to do?

Even assuming there were jobs available (which for all the claims of "recovery," real statistics show there aren't), if they were to take second and third jobs as a lot of the working poor do, all that means is paying for more child care. Usually a net wash, or even a net loss, unless the child care is subsidized (which it probably wouldn't be anyway for a second job).


Your Y may offer a sliding scale or individually negotiated rates, if you think your family should qualify for a discount.

I've seen the calculation on what two full time minimum wage jobs earn annually, and it's not much to raise a family on.

[limewave]

They don't work full time. But I do see your point.

I do appreciate the explanations everyone.

[Veronica]

I do wonder how the parents of my students who are on free or reduced lunch can afford such nice SUVS. :rolleyes:

Veronica

[Bethany1]

My husband works for Health and Human Services so I know how some of it is set up. Some of it is fair and some of it is full of politics and crazy loopholes. The main idea is provide help for those who need it but then it turns murky after that. I've used the system myself at various points so I can give a better explanation from my point of view. Anyone that works pays taxes so the family you speak of is paying taxes.

WIC only provides a certain amount of food per month per child up to age 5?. When I was on it, it paid for cheese, eggs, cereal, milk, some juice and baby formula. I was so grateful to have the help with baby formula because I wasn't able to breast feed 3 children due to seizure medications.

Food stamps are much harder to get than people think and you don't get a lot of money each month..a couple hundred dollars. Most people my husband talks too or when he does the paperwork don't qualify because of crazy reasons like your car being worth too much. The idea is go through all your "assets" before assistance kicks in. It breaks his heart to say that you don't qualify. A lot of the people he talks too aren't losers trying to take advantage of the system, but every day people.

We didn't qualify years ago because our crappy car was worth too much. So how does my husband get to work if he doesn't have a car we asked? You either sell your car and go on welfare or find other means to barely get by. That turns into a nightmarish circle of poverty because once you go over the amount the government provides (but still isn't enough to even get by) you lose those welfare benefits putting you right back where you were in the first place. Hence the "why work when you can go on welfare and get benefits?" attitude and is the cause of the topic. You are penalized for trying make your life better.

We chose to keep the car and slowly starved until our church found out what was going on. Those were some pretty tough years and in all honesty I still have food issues 15 years later as I still think that I need to save the food for my kids and not eat myself. When I do eat, it's almost like eat as much as you can now, because you don't know when you'll eat again.

I don't get how the tax benefits work like EIC other than we qualified for it. The credits were set up for those who don't make enough to get by but getting a huge refund seems wrong as well due to all the credits. I wasn't able to work due to health issues so the child care assistance never came into issue. I always felt that "why work when all my earnings would go to child care?" I want to raise my kids, not the failing day care industry especially after a devastating child protective service case I went through and my kids were forced into day care. I had a really bad reaction to Paxil after being put on it for a couple of weeks and hopefully someone made the phone call out of concern, not out of spite. Once the doc figured out it was the Paxil, everything was fine.

There needs to be a massive overhaul of benefits, taxes, and health care so that everyone pays in and have benefits, but I don't have the answers. No one group of people should carry the burden of caring for the poor nor should you be penalized for being wealthy. In some ways it doesn't seem fair that I pay for my medications/doc visits/ER visits while someone else gets it for "free" from my taxes. At the same time, if it wasn't for those systems, many people wouldn't have anything like food and health care. I shudder to think what would happen if I didn't have access to my seizure and bipolar medications.

It truly sucks being underemployed as I'm sure the family you are talking about is in. It turns into a massive poverty cycle that is becoming more and more prevalent as time goes by.

[OakLeaf]

Health insurance is huge, of course. I would have to work 80 hours per week at minimum wage just to pay for my health insurance. That's for a single individual, granted that I'm 52 and female in a state that allows sex discrimination in insurance premiums (I believe I pay about 35% more than a male my age, but that's off the top of my head and might be slightly off). It's decent coverage, better than most people probably get these days, but not comprehensive by any means. (Remember that although Medicaid is fairly comprehensive on its face in states where it hasn't been privatized, few providers accept Medicaid patients, and those who do have very little time for them.)

The other thing is that little truth that's been getting a lot of play lately: if the minimum wage had kept pace with executive salaries for the past 20 years alone, America's poorest workers would be making $23 an hour.

[limewave]

I do wonder how the parents of my students who are on free or reduced lunch can afford such nice SUVS. :rolleyes:

Veronica

That's kind of what I'm wondering.

[OakLeaf]

Did you read Bethany's post?

Just be glad you live in a state where families aren't required to sell their transportation to be able to eat or go to the doctor.

[Veronica]

I did read her post (which came after mine) and I'm talking about parents who are driving $50,000 SUVs, not the parent dropping their kid off in the beat up Toyota.

I also wonder how they have money to have the girls' hair done every couple of weeks. I've never priced out what doing all those tiny braids and adding in extensions cost, but I'm sure it's not cheap.

I grew up on welfare - food stamps, state aid, health, dental and vision covered from the age of 6 - 15. Once my sister graduated high school, my mom made too much money. My dentist was a mean jerk and my eyeglasses were butt ugly. I also grew up knowing that being on welfare was NOT a good thing and I should do everything I could to avoid it. My mom's cars were always old, my clothes were usually hand me downs (being the youngest sucks!) and my mother cut my hair until I was 12 and rebelled.

I do see a sense of "entitlement" with some of my poor kids and that bothers me.

Veronica

[indysteel]

On this subject, I sincerely recommend the book Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich. The book brings home the grim realities of the working poor.

[jyyanks]

It's unfortunate that people take advantage of the system.

I know a family who won the lottery, inherited money and chooses not to work and they get government assistance. Do they deserve it? No - and I can say that for a fact since they are close family members who inherited a lot from DH's grandmother (MIL was the executor) and who decided to squander their inheritance and lottery winnings on 3 fancy SUV's, a bigger house, a Tv for every room in the house, an ATV and various vacations. Now they have 4 kids and are on government assistance since they make below the minimum (with the husband choosing not to work since he keeps getting fired from every job he has ever tried because he picks fights and refuses to do his job.

I'm not saying these programs are not valuable. They are, especially for the majority of honest people who genuinely need a little help to make ends meet. What drives me crazy is when I see people like my husband's cousins who are clearly shirking the system.

[OakLeaf]

So just to be clear, after a family suffers a job loss or a health issue, how long would you allow them to keep their reliable late model car before you'd require them to sell it at a huge loss and replace it with a beater that will need frequent expensive repairs?

+1 on Nickeled and Dimed, so long as you remember that it's years old and things are infinitely worse now than they were when Ehrenreich wrote it.

[Irulan]

It's such a complicated topic. There are people who truly benefit from the system and then there is abuse, too. I've been on both sides of it. I used to work for a company whose best customers were welfare moms planning purchases around their checks. Now I assist someone who it if weren't for the system would be destitute or close. I get really frustrated in that the ER is her only option for any kind or urgent care; there really is something wrong with that. I see the smart phones and $100 shoes also, and I don't know how some people do it.

[Irulan]

It's unfortunate that people take advantage of the system.

I know a family who won the lottery, inherited money and chooses not to work and they get government assistance
This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.

[jyyanks]

This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.

I really don't know. This family is in Florida, however, I know people in NY too though their case is not as extreme. My best friend is the perfect example of someone who also receives government assistance and does not work. Her husband is the sole breadwinner but she CHOOSES to stay home with her 13 year old son who is perfectly capable of taking care of himself. She has held jobs in the past but she refuses to work now because she wants to stay home with her son! BTW, her mom runs a daycare so its not like she didnt have options for the past 13 years. I've talked to her about it but she has her reasons. At the end of the day, she's still my friend regardless of what she chooses to do but I am perplexed.

For all the bad stories, there are good stories too. I have seen families who truly need the support and who benefit from it. I just wish that there are less families taking advantage . I'm not saying that a Majority of people are taking advantage. I'm just sad that I personally know of 2-3 families.

[Pax]

This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.

You lie. The social worker managing the case (me a few years ago) has very limited resources to follow up on people who lie. However, many people who tell the truth get turned down for benefits because they have too many assets.

[keyes1tl]

There is abuse in the system, but there are families out there that really do need the help. Some people on assistance are able to afford to smoke a pack or more of cigarettes everyday, or buy all kinds of junk food or convenience food because they don't have "time" or the skills to make real meals for their families. Food stamps can be used to buy Pepsi or Coke. People will buy cases of drinks and then literally pour the liquid out, return the bottle for the ten cent refund and use the money to buy cigarettes or beer. There should be a few changes made to the system.

[Bethany1]

The other problem is that schools get rewarded for how many kids are on free/reduced lunches via grants and aid so they don't bother to check if you qualify. That's why you see moms with SUV's getting aid. If kids were eating home lunches, the schools don't get the aid and they lose out on that money.

When it comes to daycare, the same is applied. They get government aid for letting low income families have their kids there.

It also depends on how honest the people processing the applications are. With quotas to fill it's easy to just pass them through w/o verifying the information. Some people in Omaha got in trouble for doing that recently.

Food stamps can easily be exchanged for goods which is why they have started going to a debit card of sorts. There is a work around for every government assistance program that people have figured out.

DH said the value of a car doesn't matter anymore as the rules have changed so that could also be why you have parents with SUVs getting reduced/free lunches.

Then there's the opposite end of the spectrum of where doctors/hospitals don't want anything to do with Medicare/Medicaid and fewer and fewer doctors are now. They don't get reimbursed enough to make those on it worth their time. When I was on it for a short time years ago my neurologist said he wouldn't take me anymore and I was on my own for meds. Depakote was 220 a month w/o insurance. I took it every other day to make it last longer. The doctor that was going to deliver my baby didn't want me as well. Thankfully DH got a better job with insurance and it all worked out. Even with insurance, I continued to take my medication every other day which really defeats the purpose of having it in the first place as I wasn't seizure free during that time.

The system is flawed but it's what we have. There is no easy fix to it.

[Crankin]

All of my clients are on most of the benefits mentioned. While I don't agree with some of the choices they make in spending their money, it was heartbreaking for me and a colleague to bring an emergency food ration to one of them, who has a family of 6 kids. This is an example of how a family can spiral downward. They are married. Kids are well spaced, but all have some kind of learning or behavioral issue. Mom and dad are former addicts, but have been clean for 20+ years. Both had well paying jobs, despite lack of education. Dad was arrested for a trumped up child sexual abuse charge, stemming from when he was 20 and the girl was 16, about 6 years ago. They lost their section 8 house in a decent suburb, kids were removed from the home. They had to move to a local city, in a dangerous neighborhood. The kids came back quickly, but dad had to work under the table. A couple of years ago, he got hurt, and of course with no recourse, since it was under the table, he had to sue his employer. They are living on disability benefits (his, hers, and one of the kids).There is never enough food, and mom volunteers at the food pantry to get help above the EBT card. Exercise is on my client's treatment plan; that is how some people get a free or reduced payment for the Y. The government does not pay, the Y gives scholarships.
I thank G-d I live in Massachusetts. These people have good medical care, many going to the same doctors I brought my own kids to. The dental and eye benefits stink, but they deal with it. I wouldn't have my job without our health care system here; my position is based on 90% part of the health care initiative.
Some of those people driving around in fancy cars get their money from drug deals. There's a whole economy based on selling EBT cards. Yes, there is abuse, but generally most of these people are honest and living in a way none of us would wish for.

[shootingstar]

As for medical care, this is one area I was truly grateful when I was unemployed: generally speaking, the employed and unemployed Canadians, can visit the doctor and get treatment in Canada.

You do need to have health card which you cannot apply unless you show proof of permanent address in Canada, have a social insurance number (which requires proof of residency/citizenship), etc.

What people are forgetting, is that there is a large group of unemployed (the majority probably), who still pay taxes to the govn't annually, as they should like everyone else.

I had no guilt to use any of the government services: I was paying taxes faithfully to the authorities. My taxes provide services....should I ever need to use them which I did need them.

[Irulan]

Shootingstar, let's not even go there - the vast difference in US and Canadian health systems....

[indysteel]

So

+1 on Nickeled and Dimed, so long as you remember that it's years old and things are infinitely worse now than they were when Ehrenreich wrote it.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out.

Here's (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barbara-ehrenreich/nickel-and-dimed-2011-ver_b_922330.html) some commentary from Ehrenreich from 2011 about the worsening of the problems.

[Crankin]

Bethany, you don't honestly believe that schools encourage families to get free/reduced lunch to get money for curriculum? First of all, the federal government gives that Title 1 and other money to schools based on the number of low income kids. Since low income kids generally live in areas that don't have the $ to support the schools through taxes, this money is being used as intended; for extra support in reading and math skills to close the learning gap that often exists for these kids. It is not the schools' job to report "lies," generally they take that documentation for what it's worth. The Department of Transitional Assistance (what used to be called welfare) are usually the ones who catch fraud, at least in my state.
The sorry fact is that all kids deserve an excellent education and this is one small way that bridges the gap. It doesn't come close to what is needed, which is a totally different way of funding public education, not entirely based on property values. I'm sorry that you've had some not so nice experiences with "the system," and I know this happens, but this one, cannot be blamed on the public schools. Other agencies, maybe.

[ehirsch83]

I hate to get in on this one but a lot of it is crazy.

I have been looking for a new house to rent while we continue to save to buy(we are in an apartment right now and would really like a backyard for the dogs, so they aren't confined to only leashed walks daily) and I have had 2 houses where I have gone and the person seeing it before me walks out, asks if they take section 8- landlord says yes- they take it. Now these are houses renting for $1100 a month in decent neighborhoods. I work hard for my money and it is frustrating.

Why is it frustrating? DF's grandparents are renting their house out currently and they have a section 8 tenant- the tenant pays them $200 a month and the government pays them $800.

Something seems very off there to me- why are we paying that much in assistance for housing?

I also know someone who went onto food stamps for her and her 3 kids after bankruptcy and a messy divorce(she wasn't very good at sticking to a job or wanting to work certain jobs). But then, she would go to whole foods and buy artisan cheeses,etc. with the food stamps and continued to drive a new SUV.

And don't get me started on my thoughts of people who can't afford kids but have them knowing they can obtain government assistance to raise them. I am a big believer in if you can't afford it- don't have it(let it be kids, a tv, clothes,etc.)

I do though, feel for those who had jobs etc, and became laid off and are then struggling- as long as some one is actively searching to become employed again- then I say yes to assistance.

[Irulan]

You don't know what that section 8 person's financial situation is like. You also don't know if they own the car outright from before or what.

My disabled family member that I help gets 900 a month, period. You try buying food, paying utilities and rent on that. Never mind a bus pass, a bag of food for your pet, and a few other non-necessities that aren't luxuries. Rent, $500 a month ( and that's low income housing) and utils can top $150 in winter.

[ridebikeme]

I'm also hesitant to get in on this conversation. While I agree with most of the comments, I would dare say that there are HUGE problems here in Maine. I don't want to assume that everyone is cheating the system, but I do know that it happens alot here. It seems that there are some who will check online to see which states offer the most assistance and then they move there. I've known a few people that have done just that... all of them so that they didn't have to work. They drove nicer cars than I do, had a big screen tv, a cell phone which was paid for by the state... and I could go on and on. Their children were old enough to leave home...

I've also seen many people that NEED this assistance and they don't qualify, and of course that's another issue all in itself. In the past few years, many people have found that they could move to the New England states and live here fairly well. It has happened time and again, especially in towns where there was some sort of industry that had closed down. I'm not sure what that has to do with people moving there, but it has happened time and again.

Lastly, there is a huge problem in this county with housing. Most landlords would rather accept section 8 applicants more than anyone else... Those same landlords also seem to know how to qualify for federal assistance for updates on these buildings. I'm not sure where their monthly money goes, as the buildings are very old and have no mortgage!There was a sad case last week in a town close to me, where this building had received LOTS of work paid for by taxpayers over the past two years. The windows were not installed to code, and a two year old figured out how to open the window and fell out!(from three stories) Luckily, she landed in a snowbank and had no major injuries.

Anyway, this is a very sensitive subject for me.... but it's something that our government definitely needs to look into and make some MAJOR adjestments.

[ehirsch83]

You don't know what that section 8 person's financial situation is like. You also don't know if they own the car outright from before or what.

My disabled family member that I help gets 900 a month, period. You try buying food, paying utilities and rent on that. Never mind a bus pass, a bag of food for your pet, and a few other non-necessities that aren't luxuries. Rent, $500 a month ( and that's low income housing) and utils can top $150 in winter.

Irulan- first of all- if they owned the car outright from before and it was worth anything- the responsible thing to do would be to sell it, go by an older car (so say you sell your SUV for 25k if it is in new shape, you buy an older car but with under 80,000 miles for 5 grand- you then put 20k in the bank and save on gas)

If they are making payments on it- the responsible thing would be to let it go back and put that money towards your family.


Then on the section 8 is housing assistance- it does not encompass other financial assistance towards living- so the fact that they are getting $800 a month in just housing assistance is astronomical.

[Irulan]

Irulan- first of all- if they owned the car outright from before and it was worth anything- the responsible thing to do would be to sell it, go by an older car (so say you sell your SUV for 25k if it is in new shape, you buy an older car but with under 80,000 miles for 5 grand- you then put 20k in the bank and save on gas)

If they are making payments on it- the responsible thing would be to let it go back and put that money towards your family.


Then on the section 8 is housing assistance- it does not encompass other financial assistance towards living- so the fact that they are getting $800 a month in just housing assistance is astronomical.

Some people are ignorant. Some make other choices. Some aren't very smart. Just because you or I think someone ought to do something a certain way doesn't make it so.

[goldfinch]

Sometimes people hear a story, which often isn't verified, of someone who seems to not deserve public assistance but gets it anyone. They then may hear another story. And before you know it they have a generalized belief that there is something really wrong with the system and the system is full of loopholes and full of cheaters. As a result pushes are made to make it more difficult to get assistance and those who really need it end up without it. I want substantiated evidence before we make public policy decisions. I don't trust the anecdotes.

There are huge gaps in our safety net in the US. For example, if you are not disabled or do not have children there may very well be nothing for you at all, depending where you live. No medical assistance. Certainly no cash assistance. Maybe, just maybe, foodstamps. It is not enough to be poor and without assets to be eligible for most forms of assistance.

And even if you have children there are all sorts of restrictions on assistance, especially cash assistance. It is limited as to time and you must do things to get yourself employed. People get cut off after five years and no one keeps track of what happens to them.

Far too many fall through the cracks, in part because we are so worried someone might get something they do not deserve.

I retired early and have sufficient assets to live on. I and my spouse have enough health issues that we are not insurable. The only place we can get insurance is through our state's risk pool. Not every state has a risk pool. In many states we simply could not buy insurance at any price or the insurance would be totally inadequate and outrageously priced. We reside in a state with about the best risk pool around, Minnesota. Our premiums for health insurance total about $1000 a month. We each have a $5000 deductible. My husband just bought insulin and test strips, he paid $760. There is no generic insulin. Can you imagine being less than upper middleclass and be without health insurance? We pay often in excess of $20,000 a year on health care.

And people yell and scream about how horrible a national health care system would be.

I worry far less about cheats than I do about the raw deal the poor and the lower and middle class Americans have in our country right now.

[zoom-zoom]

Goldfinch, you bring up good points. My sister and her boys get screwed by the system. Her youngest is autistic. If she earns above the poverty line she loses her son's therapy. Because she ends up unable to work a decent paying, full-time job she lives without health insurance. Her boys' health care is covered, but if she were to get sick or injured it would be financially devastating.

She is engaged to a long-time boyfriend...the only father her boys have really ever known. Now if the 2 of them earn too much they all suffer. Neither she or her husband-to-be can make too much, otherwise her son loses the therapy. Her future husband will also not have health care covered.

[Kiwi Stoker]

Hair braids etc could be done by a family member or a friend for free (wanting to pratcise).

I think sometimes it's really hard to make judgements about people unless you know them very well. I mean some problems you won't even see- like mental illness for example. Or cannot work because of seizures or being partially sighted (not all blind people walk around with non-foccusing eyes and sunglasses).

Yes everyone in the work has a touch of greed in them and will know how to "work" the system. The rich do it, the poor do it and sometimes even the middle class. Who doesn't want something for nothing? I don't think any system can be perfect- look at communism- it had all the good intentions in the world (spread the wealth, don't have wealthy elite) and that didn't work. I think everything is a compromise and we can only hope that people don't slip through the crcks. But of course they do.

[shootingstar]

I am certain that when I was unemployed and cycling daily up to 2 hrs. for my own mental health, people could have judged me immediately by my cycling jacket, shoes, shorts and (dirty) bike, helmet for looking "higher" income than the welfare stereotype.

But little would anyone know that:

*bike was 4 yrs. old
*and helmet, jacket, stuff was at least 2-5 yrs. old.

What is even more upsetting than some individuals cheating the system in terms of benefits, are large corporations who hire tax lawyer and accountant who provide advice on how to legitimately avoid paying hundreds of thousands of $$$ corporate tax to government --annually. Through complicated, esoteric tax planning structures that require technical analysis of Income Tax Act (Canada) or Internal Revenue Code (US). It's legitimate too, folks. It's big business for the Big 4 international accounting firms.

I could tell you of the resources we had for a firm I worked, on off-shore countries and their tax laws for paying...less corporate tax. (I was a tax law librarian once upon a time.)

[salsabike]

Hair braids etc could be done by a family member or a friend for free (wanting to pratcise).

I think sometimes it's really hard to make judgements about people unless you know them very well. I mean some problems you won't even see- like mental illness for example. Or cannot work because of seizures or being partially sighted (not all blind people walk around with non-foccusing eyes and sunglasses).

Yes everyone in the work has a touch of greed in them and will know how to "work" the system. The rich do it, the poor do it and sometimes even the middle class. Who doesn't want something for nothing? I don't think any system can be perfect- look at communism- it had all the good intentions in the world (spread the wealth, don't have wealthy elite) and that didn't work. I think everything is a compromise and we can only hope that people don't slip through the crcks. But of course they do.

Well said!

[Miranda]

Skimming this thread, will hafta go back and re-read it when I don't have a headache. But it makes me mad.

We were very poor when I was a kid and did receive some assistance. We did not have anything showy. We truly needed the help. Sometimes we didn't get the help, and church somehow randomly came thru.

We have some blended into the family relatives that drive those nicer vehicles mentioned in this thread and get their illigetimate, illegal children fully paid for with Medicaid, and what not... while I'm paying more for our rx meds we need out of pocket with insurance coverage... which total more than my monthly mortgage payment... it's a stretch to make the ends meet... much less be able to "afford" what the the free (well, I'm paying for that too) health care the relatives have:mad:.

[withm]

My mother was right - you just can't make any assumptions about someone else's financial situation. You don't know the facts and once you start counting your neighbor's money it really says something about yourself.

[goldfinch]

I wish people wouldn't refer to kids as illegitimate. Or illegal for that matter.
People who are in this country illegally are not eligible for medicaid. They can get emergency room treatment to point of stabilization at a hospital.

[BodhiTree]

I grew up very poor. Father in prison, mother in a coma for months, and everything else you'd expect to see in a bad soap opera.

My friends gave me clothes, my mom's friends gave us places to stay and later loaned her a car, a church we didn't even belong to gave us food. We got free lunch at school.

We didn't look "bad" from the outside.

I try very hard as an adult not to judge. Sometimes I see things that get me angry and seem unfair. "Why do they get all this help from the government, while we got so little and had to rely on friends and charity?" "Why am I paying so much in taxes while those people get free stuff I can't afford myself?"

1. Life isn't fair.

2. Sometimes what looks ok from the outside actually sucks from the inside.

Balance those two out for yourself. If you are truly made miserable over a free-lunch child riding in an SUV to school, report it. If it's no skin off your nose, let it go.

Life is too short to waste your time carrying anger.

[PamNY]

I grew up very poor. Father in prison, mother in a coma for months, and everything else you'd expect to see in a bad soap opera.

My friends gave me clothes, my mom's friends gave us places to stay and later loaned her a car, a church we didn't even belong to gave us food. We got free lunch at school.

We didn't look "bad" from the outside.

I try very hard as an adult not to judge. Sometimes I see things that get me angry and seem unfair. "Why do they get all this help from the government, while we got so little and had to rely on friends and charity?" "Why am I paying so much in taxes while those people get free stuff I can't afford myself?"

1. Life isn't fair.

2. Sometimes what looks ok from the outside actually sucks from the inside.

Balance those two out for yourself. If you are truly made miserable over a free-lunch child riding in an SUV to school, report it. If it's no skin off your nose, let it go.

Life is too short to waste your time carrying anger.

Wise advice.

Goldfinch, I agree about the term "illegitimate."

[salsabike]

We didn't look "bad" from the outside.

I try very hard as an adult not to judge. Sometimes I see things that get me angry and seem unfair. "Why do they get all this help from the government, while we got so little and had to rely on friends and charity?" "Why am I paying so much in taxes while those people get free stuff I can't afford myself?"

1. Life isn't fair.

2. Sometimes what looks ok from the outside actually sucks from the inside.

Balance those two out for yourself. If you are truly made miserable over a free-lunch child riding in an SUV to school, report it. If it's no skin off your nose, let it go.

Life is too short to waste your time carrying anger.


Wise advice.

Goldfinch, I agree about the term "illegitimate."

Yes. Ditto to all of that.

[jelee1311]

I think this is a very interesting thread I see this first hand everyday I work for a grocery store.I think WIC is a fantastic program,kind of a pain because a lot of people don't understand how the program works so we spend time making sure it is followed. But I know these people are getting proper nutrition unlike food stamps that allows its recipients to buy candy,soda,and get this- RedBull. I think the system is very flawed and frustrating the people trying to help themselves aren't allowed to and the local Tattoo parlor takes EBT cards?!?I don't judge people that use EBT I just don't get it when they buy steak and lobster and then treat me rudely while I'm checking out their order. Aren't I the one paying for their dinner? As for free school lunches right now I'm trying to figure out a way to get my daughters school to donate the leftover 1percent milk to a local homeless shelter. The kids won't drink it since they don't allow chocolate milk in their food program anymore so it gets thrown away.

[Crankin]

One thing I've learned is not to judge, as other here have stated. I know I feel actual physical pain for my clients when I hear what they are dealing with, in terms of having enough food, paying for clothes, etc.
But, I get really mad when I hear some of you describing situations where you are paying more for health insurance than your mortgage. What's wrong with this country?
When my son graduated from college, he had a job without benefits. He made about 40K a year, so not poverty, but not a lot to live in Boston. We told him he *had* to have health insurance. So, because of the horrible mandated health insurance act we have in Massachusetts, the state was able to connect him to a very good Blue Cross plan for 200.00 a month. Did he like paying that? No. But he did have to use it a few times and was very glad he had it. He didn't qualify for Mass Health benefits that my clients get, but there was a safety net. A lot of his friends refused to buy the insurance and hoped that they didn't get sick or the state didn't find out and fine (tax) them. This is what our Supreme Court is fighting about right now. I took the mandate seriously, and I never would have let my son try to get out of having insurance. I've had enough medical things, to know that it's not an option. Why do we think it's OK to let people suffer?

[Pax]

Just a thought; shouldn't we all be more irritated/angry at the billions of dollars going to bail out and subsidize corporations, than the piddly (by comparison) money someone gets scamming a flawed system?

[shootingstar]

He didn't qualify for Mass Health benefits that my clients get, but there was a safety net. A lot of his friends refused to buy the insurance and hoped that they didn't get sick or the state didn't find out and fine (tax) them.

When I was unemployed I paid just under $55.00 every 3 months to govn't for whenever I wanted medical care. Yes, you pay for years you never use them. So I did see the doctor, get blood work. I had time to see a doctor and glad I went.

Then boom, you use the health care system intensively. Like my father..totally healthy for 60 yrs. of his life. Except for fall injury in his 30's. Now he has cancer. Alot of this is covered by our health care system with maybe only subsidy for drugs.

I can't even imagine cycling in one's own country and not have health insurance.

[missjean]

Does it ever strike you the the US is a 100 pounds of cure is better than 1 ounce of prevention country?
We fund the big money social programs, but then we balk at funding programs that could help reduce the dependence on those programs.
Here in NH funds were cut for Alzheimer’s day care and caregiver support, and funding for programs that helped people with mental health issues. The caregivers who had been able to hold down jobs because they had a safe place to have their family member looked after had to quit their jobs to go on assistance, or had to put the family member in a state funded nursing home - which costs much more.

I recently had a conversation with a man from VT who works with an organization that helps women who have been released from prison. There is a high recidivism rate with these women. They have a hard time finding work, so they can get state subsidizes for rent, but it is such a small amount they can only afford to live in the bad sections of town. Not the best place to live if you are trying to avoid bad influences that landed you in jail the first time.

And then this whole movement to defund Planned Parenthood! You want less abortions & unplanned babies that will wind up on welfare? Taking away what birth control there is for poor women does not seem to be the smartest plan.

[Veronica]

Hair braids etc could be done by a family member or a friend for free (wanting to pratcise).



Could be, but they're not. This is one of my students whom I've had for two years and we talk. Her latest set took 5 hours to complete.

I know this is the Internet and all and very few of you really know me, but I'm not jumping to conclusions when I write something about my students. And it distresses me that my observations are taken to indicate a lack of compassion. Having grown up poor, I know what it's like and I take my job as a teacher very seriously. Part of that means letting them them know that a "free" lunch really isn't free and shouldn't be taken for granted and thought of as right. Oh and I guess because they're poor, I really shouldn't chide them for having Cheetos as snack either.

We're studying the American Revolution currently and you should hear the conversations in my class about taxes... :D

Veronica

[Trek420]

I can't even imagine cycling in one's own country and not have health insurance.

Or walking, or working, or breathing or ... so please don't :(

I guess now that I don't work there I can say for over 17 years I worked in disabled and elderly services at da' phone company. In some ways we were part of the safety net, often helping customers to patch together different programs.

Yes there is some fraud, ask me about the old days of California Lifeline but most truly need the help.

The stories every day would rip your heart apart; the farmer whose tractor fell on him and now is a true quad, the couple married for 50 years living far from medical care, she has dementia, he has macular degeneration, they can't sell or rent their home to move closer to town "But we are a good team" he said. Their stories still ring in my ears.

Let me just end by saying if you think you're fine, you'd never need help, it's "them" whomever "they" are abusing or using the system you may be sadly wrong.

Most of us are an unexpected diagnosis, a pot hole or car door, a car crash to ourselves or a loved one ... we're that one thing away from disaster.

Not one of us is promised another day of health, lose that you lost your job, and with that your health care. So enjoy your ride.

[PamNY]

Sometimes people hear a story, which often isn't verified, of someone who seems to not deserve public assistance but gets it anyone. They then may hear another story. And before you know it they have a generalized belief that there is something really wrong with the system and the system is full of loopholes and full of cheaters.

That really is true.

I'm fascinated that people will use a very few (or even one) examples of bad behavior to make a sweeping negative generalization. A story about a teenager who committed a crime leads to ain't-it-awful discussions bewailing how terrible young people are.

Yet a story about the Intel science award winners does not lead to extensive discussion about how smart, committed and energetic young people are.

I'm sure there are people who cheat in every area of life.

[Koronin]

Does it ever strike you the the US is a 100 pounds of cure is better than 1 ounce of prevention country?
We fund the big money social programs, but then we balk at funding programs that could help reduce the dependence on those programs.
Here in NH funds were cut for Alzheimer’s day care and caregiver support, and funding for programs that helped people with mental health issues. The caregivers who had been able to hold down jobs because they had a safe place to have their family member looked after had to quit their jobs to go on assistance, or had to put the family member in a state funded nursing home - which costs much more.

I recently had a conversation with a man from VT who works with an organization that helps women who have been released from prison. There is a high recidivism rate with these women. They have a hard time finding work, so they can get state subsidizes for rent, but it is such a small amount they can only afford to live in the bad sections of town. Not the best place to live if you are trying to avoid bad influences that landed you in jail the first time.

And then this whole movement to defund Planned Parenthood! You want less abortions & unplanned babies that will wind up on welfare? Taking away what birth control there is for poor women does not seem to be the smartest plan.


I so totally don't get it either. I really wish more preventative care would be covered and provided actually. I must give credit to a previous company my husband worked for in this category. As part of their health care (although not part of the health insurance) they would refund upto $200 a year for anything that was health/exercise related. Things included gym memberships, bicycles, exercise bikes, ect.

I also don't get the whole let's defund Planned Parenthood and while we're at it, make abortions impossible to get, even in medical necessary cases (Georgia law, which did not pass the state Senate) and make birth control illegal. On the last part I had visions of having to find my local drug dealer so I could buy birth control.

[Owlie]

I so totally don't get it either. I really wish more preventative care would be covered and provided actually. I must give credit to a previous company my husband worked for in this category. As part of their health care (although not part of the health insurance) they would refund upto $200 a year for anything that was health/exercise related. Things included gym memberships, bicycles, exercise bikes, ect.

I also don't get the whole let's defund Planned Parenthood and while we're at it, make abortions impossible to get, even in medical necessary cases (Georgia law, which did not pass the state Senate) and make birth control illegal. On the last part I had visions of having to find my local drug dealer so I could buy birth control.
That drives me crazy. There's a disturbingly large number of people who don't want birth control covered by insurance, demand abortion be outlawed (or create a degrading series of hoops to jump through), and want Planned Parenthood defunded....and these same people also make a huge stink about WIC, Medicaid, and forms of social welfare programs. You can't have it both ways...

This thread also reminded me of this Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/). Yes, it's Cracked, but I think it's still somewhat relevant.

[Koronin]

Owlie, Exactly.

[zoom-zoom]

Perhaps we should make any man who wants Viagra prove that they are actively trying to get some woman pregnant before we pay for their ED meds. Oh, wait a minute. Guys with ED are more often older, and so, by default, they are not likely to want more children.

Hmmm. Something screwy here. :rolleyes:

They should have to go through an invasive pelvic exam, just like we have to when we want a prescription for hormonal contraceptives.

[Irulan]

Perhaps we should make any man who wants Viagra prove that they are actively trying to get some woman pregnant before we pay for their ED meds. Oh, wait a minute. Guys with ED are more often older, and so, by default, they are not likely to want more children.

Hmmm. Something screwy here. :rolleyes:

There were a whole bunch of bills restricting viagra proposed in various state houses/sentates, requiring among other things: a psychological examination, a note from a spouse, cardiac stress test, and so on.

[PamNY]

This thread also reminded me of this Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-develop-growing-up-poor/). Yes, it's Cracked, but I think it's still somewhat relevant.

I'll bet there's a lot of truth in the Cracked article.

[salsabike]

I'll bet there's a lot of truth in the Cracked article.

That's a good article.

[zoom-zoom]

I identified with most of the first page of that Cracked article. We had very little. We didn't have medical insurance until I was already in college and my mom got hired in a full time support position at my former school. We went without a phone quite frequently and had our power shut off on more than one occasion. My family certainly qualified for assistance, but my dad was too proud/stubborn/stupid to take it.

I still have a difficult time eating fruits and veggies. I never really developed a taste for them and when I'm hungry I crave toast and crackers (gimme a sleeve of Ritz crackers...mmmm...). Sometimes I really do prefer canned fruits and things. The texture of a lot of raw veggies kinda makes me wanna puke.

I'm terrible at saving money. We never had money to save. My hubby's upbringing was a polar opposite and sometimes we struggle to understand one another on financial stuff. But I still remember how offensive his mom was years ago, she was very down on my parents for not paying for my college...but my folks had another kid in college (at Northwestern) and still had 1 at home. They also live in a relatively high-cost area. My ILs, on the other hand, had only 1 kid and lived in an area where housing was dirt cheap. They also both made about twice as much as my folks. And my DH's grandparents had bought stock when he was little that essentially paid for his tuition in full for all 4 years. My MIL was a special ed teacher, so she (of all people) should have had a clue about financial struggles that families face.

[Atlas]

Could be, but they're not. This is one of my students whom I've had for two years and we talk. Her latest set took 5 hours to complete.

I know this is the Internet and all and very few of you really know me, but I'm not jumping to conclusions when I write something about my students. And it distresses me that my observations are taken to indicate a lack of compassion. Having grown up poor, I know what it's like and I take my job as a teacher very seriously. Part of that means letting them them know that a "free" lunch really isn't free and shouldn't be taken for granted and thought of as right. Oh and I guess because they're poor, I really shouldn't chide them for having Cheetos as snack either.


What do you suggest we do? Cut all those programs so no one can benefit? There will always be people who scam things, but for all the anecdotes I'm sure there are twice as many people who are grateful for those safety nets and don't outwardly say that. The family you're talking about could very well be scamming the whole system, I don't know and I don't really mind because there are a lot more people who are benefiting. Just because I don't need those services now doesn't mean I won't in the future and I'm happy to pay into them. It'd be ideal if no one ripped off a well intended program but that's not human nature.