Pointing at Drivers? [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

runnergirl

07-07-2005, 06:12 AM

Went on the usually wed. night group ride last night, and it ROCKED!!!

An older women saw the group and came to hang with us, after a bit she and one of the fast guys took off, I hung along and they taught me a TON about pace line riding/drafting etc...we were over 21 the whole time except for one hill. Best ride ever!

Anyhoo...the point of this post, Tom (the guy) when he was in the lead would point at cars. It was like taking the eye contact thing to the next level, but I can see how some drivers might see this as confrontational. As an example, we were going up a slight incline, no bike lane, right turn lane into shopping center on the right, with a driver from the opposite direction about to turn left into said shopping center. The driver did not appear to be yielding to us, so Tom turned his head, rode with one hand and pointed directly at the driver. The driver jerked to a stop and we rode on.

Is this a common practice? Do you think it could be interpreated wrongly by already hostile drivers? It sure seemed effective, but as a lone female most of the time I don't want to risk ticking someone off.

DeniseGoldberg

07-07-2005, 06:19 AM

Maybe I'm just chicken, but I'd rather stop (and be safe) than confront a driver. While my experience is that more drivers are considerate than not, I don't want to chance an accident.

One thing I've found very interesting is that when I'm riding in traffic and I am able to move to the left and I signal a left turn, that the oncoming drivers will often stop and wave me though. If cars are heading toward me though, I'd rather take the time to stop.

--- Denise

Irulan

07-07-2005, 06:29 AM

was he pointing with his middle finger?

~irulan

jobob

07-07-2005, 06:52 AM

Anyhoo...the point of this post, Tom (the guy) when he was in the lead would point at cars. It was like taking the eye contact thing to the next level, but I can see how some drivers might see this as confrontational.

Is this a common practice? Do you think it could be interpreated wrongly by already hostile drivers? It sure seemed effective, but as a lone female most of the time I don't want to risk ticking someone off. The point (as it were) for pointing at cars about to enter intersections is two-fold: First it's to get the attention of the oncoming driver, second it's to alert any cyclists behind you of a potential hazzard ahead.

But I do it a bit differently, since I agree with you, pointing seems a little bit confrontational to me.

Instead, I smile and wave cheerily at the oncoming driver. Not only is it less confrontational (IMHO), waving is more likely to catch the driver's attention than pointing. I also make sure that the driver is looking AT me (rather than through me) when I'm about to cross his/her path. More often than not the drivers wave back, so I know I got their attention. And it's good cycling PR, which never hurts :)

One of my road cycling academy students told me that I was the friendliest rider he's ever seen, the way I wave and smile at drivers. I told him heck, I'm not being friendly, I'm covering my @$$ :p :D

- Jo

MomOnBike

07-07-2005, 07:24 AM

Smile and wave to get the cars to back off some, huh? I might have to try that.

Actually, the drivers around here are pretty nice. I find myself waving a lot of "thank-you's" at cars that make life easier for me. Still, pre-emptive waving sounds like a good idea.

Grog

07-07-2005, 07:25 AM

I may try Jobob's trick of "waving", but actually I do a bit like your Tom guy but I don't point (which is indeed perhaps a bit agressive). Instead, I stretch my arm and put my hand in a "stop" motion (perpendicular to the ground) just like the traffic cops do at intersections (quite universal and drivers should be familiar with this).

I do that especially in front of drivers which I feel might not give me rightful priority when I am going straight and they are turning. Actually I read that most accidents on bikes are caused by drivers turning in front of a cyclist because they underestimate the speed of the bike and/or overestimate our capacity to brake. By signalling to them I draw their attention and protect my priority (and above all my life!!). It's kinda hard to work up if the car is coming from behind and wants to turn right, though, especially since the intentions of the driver are impossible to guess unless you have eyes on your jersey pockets.

I'll try to accentuate the waving and make sure I smile. I'm totally agreeing with the idea that we have to maintain peaceful relations with the drivers and other users of the road (including pedestrians). That's among the reasons why I always stop at red lights. I behave like a (responsible and respectful) car driver would as much as I can.

slinkedog

07-07-2005, 07:27 AM

Good idea, jo. I have yelled at cars before. In one instance, I was going straight and a car was getting ready to make a right into my path and wasn't looking my way (I was just going past his line), so I yelled at the top of my lungs and he heard me and stopped. His window was open, so I was pretty sure he would hear me. Not always the case. I didn't have time to stop, though, so it seemed like the best thing to do. My 3 year old has a pink squeaky pig on her trike handlebars... maybe I need one of those! I do know of a couple of people who have some sort of air horn for such occasions.

jobob

07-07-2005, 08:14 AM

That's among the reasons why I always stop at red lights. I behave like a (responsible and respectful) car driver would as much as I can. [lecture mode on]

I'm very glad you do that, Grog, but with all due respect, first and foremost we stop at stop lights because that's the law - when we're cycling on the road, we are vehicles and we are subject to the same laws as other vehicles. We have to behave like a car driver because we are subject to the same laws as a car driver would be.

And apart from it being the law, when we behave like car drivers we are acting predictably - and that's essential for safe cycling.

[/lecture mode off]

- jo "mother hen" bob

Grog

07-07-2005, 10:48 AM

[lecture mode on]

I'm very glad you do that, Grog, but with all due respect, first and foremost we stop at stop lights because that's the law - when we're cycling on the road, we are vehicles and we are subject to the same laws as other vehicles. We have to behave like a car driver because we are subject to the same laws as a car driver would be.

And apart from it being the law, when we behave like car drivers we are acting predictably - and that's essential for safe cycling.

[/lecture mode off]

Isn't it exactly what I said I did and promote? I did not specify I did it because it is the law, which I obviously know, and frankly it is not the only or even the main reason why I do it (usually laws are there for a purpose). I do it for my own safety and that of others whom I share the road with. That's what first and foremost to me. But the point is: I still do it.

Frankly, I am not sure acting "first and foremost" because a given behavior is prescribed by "the law" is always the best thing to do. For instance, the code in Quebec specifies that whenever there is a cycling path we must use it. It is the LAW. Well in may situations it turns out that our cycling paths are outright dangerous because they run countertraffic and many cyclists get hit every year right there. So I obey instead to another article of the same law that specifies that I must behave just like any other vehicle, and I ride with the traffic, and the behavior of drivers around me (quite respectful when I'm on the road, quite careless if I'm riding countertraffic on the bike path where they least expect me to be) quite convinces me that it is, in such a situation, the safest thing to do. You are quite right about predictability as a very important value when driving any kind of vehicle.

(Plus: many laws of the past and present were/are outright discriminatory and, fortunately, there are people disobeying them and trying to make things change.)

I have noticed, however, and you certainly have noticed too, that 95% of cyclists do NOT obey to traffic lights nor to stop signs. That was what my point was about: acting as a vehicle to be respected as a legitimate vehicle on the road.

bcipam

07-07-2005, 11:12 AM

I belong to a large cycling group in Orange County, CA. This whole discussion comes up time and time again. Bottom line, we are under the law, considered to be vehicles and must obey all traffic laws, including stopping at stop signs, using hand signals etc. Most formal riding groups are very good at doing this. They will point towards the direction of a turn, will hold out their arms and hands to notify and signal to drivers that they are riding through, call out hazards etc. My group, unfortunately is not so formal and alot of riders just follow along and in an effort to stay with the lead riders, will blow through signs and even stop lights.

I try to stop btu confess through residential neighbors will only slow down. I signal my turns and I also hold my arm out to drivers to get their attention and let them know when I'm riding through. One example or riders pissing me and motorist off. I stopped at a 4 way stop. The driver had the right of way and I motioned them through. Just as the car started forward, two riders came from behind me, did not stop, and made a left turn right in front of the driver. The driver had to hit his brakes and gave me a nasty look. I later caught up to those riders and gave them a piece of my mind (and since there is so little left I hate to do this).

I really don't like to hear riders shouting or pointing at cars. The action can be misunderstood. We just have to be more diligent than cars in watching traffic and making sure it is safe to proceed. We all have to be good-will representatives of the cycling community and act politely and with courtesy.

Lynne

07-07-2005, 11:18 AM

Hmmmm...I have a lot to learn. Last weekend out cycling w/the BF, an oncoming car turned left in front of me. He saw me coming, we made eye contact, he frowned and went ahead and turned. There were two cars behind him and one heading my direction behind me. The problem is, I couldn't stop fast enough. He figured that out at the last second and thank goodness he gunned it and finished crossing in front of me. But I was so mad, I yelled at him...I wanted to confront him (I know...so bad!).

Then just a few hundred feet ahead at a light, a mini van that had been BEHIND me and so knew I was there started to travel in the bike lane to make a right hand turn. He wasn't trying to get around a car going straight, there was no reason for him to use the bike lane. I slowed down, he kept moving over more and more into my bike and slowing...like, "hello! What do I need to do to actually HIT the cyclist?? Ok, move more right, slow down...match the bike's pace...that's good...". So again, I yelled at the top of my lungs "HEY! I'M ON A BIKE HERE! OVER HERE! NEXT TO YOU! YOU IDIOT!". Then I flipped him off after he made the turn. I have a very bad temper :( All the cars waiting at the light saw me and I felt like an idiot.

Gotta rein in my temper since it seems this is a typical occurrence!

wingsonwheels

07-07-2005, 12:11 PM

Cycling mostly on "rural" roads, I try to be friendly and wave at oncoming drivers...just to let them know we're on the road too...

I've been accused of being to passive about taking my place, but I'd rather wait a minute and be safe than "dead right" so to speak. I'd wave or motion to a driver, but never point. Those guys in their trucks can get P----d off pretty quick!

SnappyPix

07-07-2005, 12:31 PM

This is such an emotive subject!
Having commuted to work for the past few years, I can identify with all that's been said - and especially with Lynne.
It's so hard to keep your cool when you know that some car drivers are intentionally trying to run you off the road, or ride straight through you.
I started off being polite to drivers, but after months and eventually years of being abused on the roads, I developed a deep seated road rage with everyone who crossed me.
One day I got into an altercation with a guy who took exception to me not yielding to him, even though he was behind me at a junction. This developed into a heated argument, him trying to run me over, me banging on his window, him taking chase after me, deliberately trying to run into me. I again caught up with him and banged on his window and he then got out of the car and came at me to punch me. I think that it was only because I was a woman that he stopped.
To cut a long story short, it's so difficult not to express your anger when someone does something crazy - but I was stupid and learned my lesson.
Now I grit my teeth and for the most part take my anger out on my pedals.
I always try to make eye contact with people who are turning in front of me, and will put my hand up in the stop position if I think they're gonna cut me up. On the flip side, I also say thank you to patient drivers who I know could have pulled out in front of me, but who waited.
Despite the fact that cyclists are so abused on the roads, it's stupid to get into arguments with drivers because you never know where it will end.
I know that sometimes I'm guilty of taking the moral highground - I'm one less car, yes, but I should also have consideration for others and shouldn't get annoyed if someone slows me down, makes me stop whilst in full pelt, or blocks the road so I can't sail past.
Of course, endangering my life or my bike is another thing, but I think the cooler, patient (but assertive) approach is the better.

slinkedog

07-07-2005, 01:11 PM

I really don't like to hear riders shouting or pointing at cars. The action can be misunderstood. We just have to be more diligent than cars in watching traffic and making sure it is safe to proceed. We all have to be good-will representatives of the cycling community and act politely and with courtesy.

I totally agree that we have to be more careful on bikes and that we have to be good representatives of the cycling community. However, if I'm in a situation where I'm about to get hit because someone in a car isn't watching and I can't stop in time, I will most certainly yell at them or do whatever necessary to avoid an accident. It's like my version of a horn on a car. :)

RoadRaven

07-07-2005, 01:15 PM

bcipam

07-07-2005, 03:35 PM

I yelled at the top of my lungs "HEY! I'M ON A BIKE HERE! OVER HERE! NEXT TO YOU! YOU IDIOT!". Then I flipped him off after he made the turn. I have a very bad temper :( All the cars waiting at the light saw me and I felt like an idiot.

Gotta rein in my temper since it seems this is a typical occurrence!

Bottom line, although we both have rights to the road, cars are bigger and can hurt us so we have to be on guard all the time. If I don't think a car understands my moves, I back off and let the car have the right of way. I have many a friend who, while in the right, was struck by a car and seriously injuried. I'm just never in that big of a hurry to want to confront a car. Plus girl, riding should be about quiet quality time. No fun to ride all pissed off. Rein in that temper, go with the flow and you'll enjoy your riding more - or - take up mountain biking and get off the road! :p

bcipam

07-07-2005, 03:45 PM

*big sigh*
Wouldn't it be nice if the cars recognised we have road rights too, such as a legal right to ride 2 abreast
*slips into daydream mode*

Is that a legal right ot ride two abreast out into the traffic lane?

Cyclists (at least in Calif) are required to ride as close to the curb as safely possible as not to impede the traffic lane and the flow of traffic. Not right (or legal) that we ride out into the lane and make cars go around us. No wonder motorists always want to cut us off. Trust me I run into stupid drivers all the time (the worse for me is when I move out of a right turn lane only to let those drivers turning right go into the lane and they still instead go around on the left and cut me off). But then again, I also sometimes do stupid things and I would hope the driver gives me the benefit of the doubt and understands I made a mistake, I didn't turn in from of them on purpose.

Think of it this way... how much nicer would your ride be if you assumed that the cars had the right of way and planned for that? No sense getting upset or angry. Better to be a good citizen so drivers aren't scared or pissed off at us. It is a two way street. How would you like it if some cyclists started gesturing and yelling at you and you had no idea or clue why? And there are alot of stupid cyclist out there. Trust me, my road club is full of them. They routinely run stop signs, make left turns on red lights in front of vehicles, block turn lanes, take up the traffic lane. No wonder motorists don't like dealing with us...

which is why I mountain bike more and more.... :D

jobob

07-07-2005, 06:10 PM

Sorry I annoyed you, Grog, it wasn't my intention. I often get too didactic. I'll reign it in.

- Jo.

RoadRaven

07-07-2005, 06:45 PM

Is that a legal right ot ride two abreast out into the traffic lane?

In Aotearoa New Zealand it is legal
Bicycles should be treated with all the respect one should give a car, and riding two abreast is legal...

However, legality doesn't stop intolerance and impatience on some driver's parts

Grog

07-07-2005, 06:49 PM

Sorry I annoyed you, Grog, it wasn't my intention. I often get too didactic. I'll reign it in.

No no - it's allright.

You actually make a pretty good point. Although I disagree that "the law" must be the most important factor in any decision, I am always thinking - especially when I'm commuting - that if all of those people commuting on the bike were driving cars, it would be awfully dangerous out there. Most seem to totally ignore that the traffic laws apply to them, too. Or even just basic courtesy. Stop signs, traffic lights, all of these they don't care about. Moreover, while a few of us politely wait in line at a stop light, some freak rides right in front of all of us and into the incoming car lane and often put the others in danger too. If they could just think about the law and nothing else, that would be a good start. But last time I was a cop on a bike he was riding on the sidewalk so... no motivation will come from there. :(

Irulan

07-07-2005, 07:24 PM

Is that a legal right ot ride two abreast out into the traffic lane?

Cyclists (at least in Calif) are required to ride as close to the curb as safely possible as not to impede the traffic lane and the flow of traffic. Not right (or legal) that we ride out into the lane and make cars go around us. No wonder motorists always want to cut us off. Trust me I run into stupid drivers all the time (the worse for me is when I move out of a right turn lane only to let those drivers turning right go into the lane and they still instead go around on the left and cut me off). But then again, I also sometimes do stupid things and I would hope the driver gives me the benefit of the doubt and understands I made a mistake, I didn't turn in from of them on purpose.

Think of it this way... how much nicer would your ride be if you assumed that the cars had the right of way and planned for that? No sense getting upset or angry. Better to be a good citizen so drivers aren't scared or pissed off at us. It is a two way street. How would you like it if some cyclists started gesturing and yelling at you and you had no idea or clue why? And there are alot of stupid cyclist out there. Trust me, my road club is full of them. They routinely run stop signs, make left turns on red lights in front of vehicles, block turn lanes, take up the traffic lane. No wonder motorists don't like dealing with us...

which is why I mountain bike more and more.... :D

funny, in this thread all I can think about is my poor 75 year old mother who lives on a narrow, windy road in Sonoma county that is heavily used by road cyclists. It is a completely common occurance for groups of roadies to NOT go to single file when there are vehicles approaching from behind. They will stay 3-5 abreast with complete disregard for the vehicles on the road. My poor mother lacks the balls to pass them on this road, (with good reason, it's a series of blind corners and she'd have to go into the other lane) which means she follows behind for a mile or more until she reaches her driveway. Groups of cyclists pulling this kind of thing is the worst sort of passive/aggressive riding. What kind of point are riders like this trying to make?

irulan

jobob

07-07-2005, 09:57 PM

Groups of cyclists pulling this kind of thing is the worst sort of passive/aggressive riding. What kind of point are riders like this trying to make? Darned if I know - all they do is tick off drivers and that's no good for any of us.

- Jo "single file" bob

Crankin

07-08-2005, 08:31 AM

Interesting subjects here. I just got back from Hilton Head, SC, where they really do enforce the law that cyclists have to be on a bike path if there is one. We were in an area that had tons of paths filled with people who haven't ridden for 20 years on cruisers, joggers, walkers. It was obviously dangerous for my husband and I to be cycling on this path. We got pulled over by the cops twice and just about arrested when i told him we had the right to be on the road; went and checked on the internet and apparently we did not have the right to be on the road. I don't take well to mean redneck cops who are 50 pounds overweight. Later I took my mountain bike on the path to get to a nature preserve; talk about getting pissed off! I was going about 10-12 and had many near collisions. I swear, I never yelled so much, even though i kept saying on your left, bike passing, etc.
I live near mostly country roads, but there's a fair amount of suburban traffic where i usually ride. I have no problem putting my arm out with the stop sign if i think someone is going to do something funky. I also stop if i feel like they won't see the arm. I'm pretty lucky; there are tons of cyclists here in Massachusetts and especially in the area where i live, most people are polite. My worst thing was on a commute home from work, someone was backing out of their driveway and i knew he didn't see me, despite the fact there were 2 others in the yard who did. I yelled really loud and he stopped. I agree with the 2 riding abreast. Some towns around here are starting to give tickets to large cycling groups who do this. It's dangerous and I see their point.

Lynne

07-08-2005, 12:10 PM

Bottom line, although we both have rights to the road, cars are bigger and can hurt us so we have to be on guard all the time. If I don't think a car understands my moves, I back off and let the car have the right of way. I have many a friend who, while in the right, was struck by a car and seriously injuried. I'm just never in that big of a hurry to want to confront a car. Plus girl, riding should be about quiet quality time. No fun to ride all pissed off. Rein in that temper, go with the flow and you'll enjoy your riding more - or - take up mountain biking and get off the road! :p

hehe...don't they say that recognizing the problem is half way to fixing it? :D
Yeah, I'm really not wanting to get smooshed to bits because I have a bad temper...gotta keep it reigned in. I keep picturing going down and a car tire rolls over my head and pops it like a squished watermellon...that's enough to keep my temper in check!

ACG

07-08-2005, 01:27 PM

Wow! Did I learn a lot, good post! I live in Los Angeles, really the burbs, east of it. Lots of areas that are full of homes then smatteries of businesses. Near Pasadena. Lots of traffic. I follow all the traffic rules for cars. I 1/2 way wave when I signal. Stop at all lights, stop sign, etc. I do not yell at drivers (I just think evil thoughts). Don't want to get shot at! Joke. Anyway, you have all given me good advice.

betagirl

07-08-2005, 02:30 PM

Yeah that's just rude to ride so wide cars can't pass you. When I ride with my club we ride 2 abreast on low traffic roads, but are constantly communicating when a car is coming up behind us or from the other direction. We try to fall into single file if we can if there's a car back, but usually they pass us before we can. On heavier roads we ride single file.

When I ride alone I basically am a car in my mind, except more like a Yugo in terms of being able to survive a wreck :D

/rant on

What is up with people who are afraid to pass you on roads where they obviously CAN pass you (wide enough, no traffic coming on a straightaway, etc.)? Then you get this funeral procession behind you of angry drivers when it's not your fault, you're over to the side as far as you can go. No really I know you're there, I'm waving you by, I'm not going to go in front of you! PASS ME!

/rant off

latelatebloomer

07-08-2005, 03:03 PM

So far the drivers I'm dealing with have been really courteous, but I did get very nervous when, as I was puffing up a hill, an oncoming car full of teenage boys slowed, a window rolled down, and a kid shouted at me -

"You can do it!"

As a newbie, I'm taking to heart the advice to be bold and firm about drivers noticing me. I'm a "nice girl" but I can emit a very South Philly "YO!" when needed. :p

emily_in_nc

07-08-2005, 05:32 PM

/rant on
What is up with people who are afraid to pass you on roads where they obviously CAN pass you (wide enough, no traffic coming on a straightaway, etc.)? Then you get this funeral procession behind you of angry drivers when it's not your fault, you're over to the side as far as you can go. No really I know you're there, I'm waving you by, I'm not going to go in front of you! PASS ME!/rant off

God yes, this bugs me to no end. Why is it that drivers either seem to be too hurried, too aggressive, too disrespectful...or the opposite extreme, won't pass, just ride behind you forever, making you nervous, and holding up other drivers as well??? It's quite curious. :confused:

Emily

Grog

07-08-2005, 06:53 PM

So far the drivers I'm dealing with have been really courteous, but I did get very nervous when, as I was puffing up a hill, an oncoming car full of teenage boys slowed, a window rolled down, and a kid shouted at me -

"You can do it!"

I am quite sure many drivers actually do that sort of things to be nice... but when it (or similar) happens to me, I always feel like replying:

"Can you?"

And I HATE it when some honk as a way of expressing their support/cheering.

snapdragen

07-08-2005, 07:49 PM

What is up with people who are afraid to pass you on roads where they obviously CAN pass you (wide enough, no traffic coming on a straightaway, etc.)?

I have a funny (at least I think it is) story. When I did the AIDS ride in 2000, we were out in the farmlands of California- flat as can be. A mess of bicycles and one car, she was afraid to pass the lead cyclists. Pretty soon, there is this car, about 100 cyclists bunched up behind her - kind of a surreal Highway to Hell. I think the cyclists in front finally just pulled over so she'd go by. It tickled my warped sense of humor. :D

betagirl

07-09-2005, 05:42 AM

And I HATE it when some honk as a way of expressing their support/cheering.

I had a guy tap his horn then wave out his window at me as he drove by. At first I was expecting the ol' bird, but it was a wave for about 5 seconds. I was drinking some water at the time and was like WTF is he waving at me for? I guess I'm too cynical also :)

I hear stories of people getting stuff thrown at them on the road all the time, but I've (knock on wood) never had that happen. I've been yelled at a few times. WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU OWN THE ROAD?! Um, yeah I do actually. Or my personal favorite. GET ON THE F**KING SIDEWALK! Ok but there is no sidewalk. Not that I'd ever ride on a sidewalk. But nothing thrown. Everyone I've heard this from is a guy. Any of you girls had this happen?

Technotart

07-09-2005, 05:53 AM

My son has had a full coke can, a handful of large bolts and various other sundry items thrown at him by what I refer to as "the bubba factor" (Not my fault they all happened to be driving beat up old pick up trucks!) Now mind you - this was early in the morning on VERY low traffic roads where there was NOONE else on the road. These were just incidents of pure aggression for no good reason.

I know some people honk to be friendly but I sure wish they wouldnt it! I just about pee my shorts everytime!

In Texas, if there are two lanes or more in each direction, you are better off riding two abreast and having the cars move into the 2nd lane to pass you if traffic is light. If you try to ride real close to the curb, they will try to skate by you, giving you as little room as possible. If Im riding alone in the street, I take up the right lane for the most part. If the road is heavy with traffic, I hang at the curb at the light and let most of the traffic go by before I cross the intersection. Basically, if you want to be treated like traffic, you have to act like traffic and that includes following the laws, being courteous to vehicles, and using your turn signals and brake lights as it were. Sharing the road goes both ways.

Tar-Cat

07-09-2005, 08:33 AM

Tar-Cat

07-09-2005, 08:35 AM

Is that a legal right ot ride two abreast out into the traffic lane?

I thought it was legal if cyclists needed to take the whole lane for safety reasons. Like if two are riding along and come up on a really curvy section of road, they could ride two abreast to increase visibility. If I'm mistaken, please let me know!

tatormc

07-09-2005, 09:23 AM

And I HATE it when some honk as a way of expressing their support/cheering.

My hubby does this just as a way to say hi to other cyclists.

Grog

07-09-2005, 09:48 AM

My hubby does this just as a way to say hi to other cyclists.

I am sure it is well intended but just warn him that it can frighten or surprise some of us enough to fall off the bike. Especially if I am climbing and very concentrated on my front wheel, I don't pay much attention to the noises around me and a loud honk can really be brutal at that moment...

I guess this is true when coming from behind. When coming in the opposite direction, I probably would not mind as much and wave hello in return...

skibum

07-09-2005, 10:41 AM

Rant time...

I had an incident happen just this morning that fits right into the discussion here. I was riding down the road and noticed ahead of me a car wanted to turn left out of an apartment complex. I slowed down because the driver was looking away from me. I like to make eye contact so that I'm sure the driver sees me. The driver looked my way, we made eye contact, I held my hand out in a way to indicate hold on I'm coming by and he pulled out in front of me anyways. Luckily, since I had been slowing down in case he didn't see me, I was able to brake hard and not run into him. He had his window down so I yelled at him that I had the right of way.

Why, oh why, are drivers in such a rush and time is so important to them that they can't wait for 10 seconds for you to pass by them? I know this guy saw me. I really think that he just didn't want to wait for me so he figured he could pull out before I got there. Well, it worked out okay this time because I was paying attention. What if I hadn't been?

CorsairMac

07-09-2005, 11:49 AM

I'm not defending the driver ski - by no means. He was in the wrong but........I think most drivers have not a clue just how fast a bike can go. Most people who don't ride have not a clue that a bike can travel between 15-20 mph with a single rider.....now factor in a Woman rider for crying out loud. I mean no Way can a Woman rider go much faster than 2-5 mph! As for the hand gesture, since you are a slow woman rider how nice was that to wave him on through! What a nice lady!! :rolleyes: ;)
I treat every vehicle on the road for exactly what it is - a ton of screaming hot metal that could rip holes in my little tiny body and spit me out like a pit. I tend to ride either just to the left of the white line or just slightly to the right of the line if I have a bike lane just to be sure the cars behind me know I'm there. I also signal even when I'm just letting them know I'm NOT taking the right turn only lane. I do tend to go up front at stoplights - ONLY if there's room - coz for reasons known only to them, ABQ fades out the bike lanes at most intersections so I WANT those cars to know I'm there and that I'm gonna cross that street AND that I need a little room until I can get my bike lane back. I feel very fortunate that in my city - so far - I've encountered only nice drivers, few honkers and only 1 squeezer (a Black SUV). To answer Tar-Cats question, the one and only time I "yelled" at a car was when someone rushed an exit driveway to make a right hand turn just as I was approaching. I yelled (what did someone call it? south philly?) "YO" really loud and sat up as high as I could while guarding the brake levers. Poor guy looked scared to death - had not a clue I was there. I thanked him as I passed in front of him and he waved back.
My vent is the really sweet driver the stops all the traffic behind him - After I've stopped and After I'm unclipped and have my foot down - to let me cross the street. Of course that driver has not a clue whats coming in the other lanes either next to him or oncoming and has not a clue that he's/she's just tee'd off some other driver behind him that one of these days will come Roaring around to pass this very nice driver coz maniac didn't see the biker there. The very nice driver also just assumes - I'm guessing - that I'm kinda like a Whizzer and all I have to do is push down on the pedal and the bike will go Reallly Fasssst. I try not to get annoyed with them but com'n drivers - use some common sense with your courtesy! vent done tyvm

DeniseGoldberg

07-09-2005, 03:26 PM

Is that a legal right ot ride two abreast out into the traffic lane?

I thought it was legal if cyclists needed to take the whole lane for safety reasons. ...If I'm mistaken, please let me know!

I suggest you check the vehicle code for your state. I live in Massachusetts, and riding 2 abreast is not legal here.

From the General Laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Chapter 85: Section 11B Bicycles; operation and equipment; regulations; federal product safety standards, effect; races; violations; penalties

Operators of bicycles shall be subject to the following regulations:
(1) The operator shall ride single file on any way except when passing.
But what I found interesting is that I couldn't find a reference to where a bicyclist should ride relative to the road. As in, close to the right, or in the center of the lane, or... I generally stay as far to the right as I feel is safe, but far enough out in the road that drivers know that I am there and that they will need to go around me. If I feel that conditions are unsafe to ride to the side of the lane, then I move closer to the center of the lane. I'm with Corsair in that I do whatever I can do to be safe among those (powered) vehicles that are much bigger than I am.

Here's a link to bike regulations in all states: http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/statelaws.htm, and another for regulations in Canada and France & UK: http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/intl_laws.htm.

--- Denise

Gabby

07-20-2005, 07:33 AM

Here in my part of Florida we have either well built bike lanes or paths off the side of the road. I find most of my problems crossing intersections; the drivers here do not seem to pay attention to the pedestrian crossing lane even with me 1/2 way through waiting for the left turn traffic light to go red.

I enjoying riding the road though, in FL my understanding (if it has not changed) is that we get 4 inches from the white line for riding. Only time I get nervous is with the dump trucks going past me, normally on 2 lane roads they move over away from me.

I normally try to make sure the driver has seen me and is yielding before I move through their path; I have been known to yell from time to time.

alison_in_oh

07-20-2005, 07:54 AM

I like the idea of smiling and waving at drivers - I will definitely have to try that. But when someone does cut you off and you have to yell to avoid an accident, what do you say? I know it's silly, but I'd be the one there going "crap, what do I say?" and having the accident anyway... :o

I've practiced enough that yelling, "HEY!!" very deep and loud is second nature to me.

I recently recognized that I'm getting way too uptight about cars and drivers. I concentrated on being more flexible and congenial yesterday, and it made my ride much more pleasant. :)

(The worst was the time a car squeezed past me as his lane ended. I pulled up behind him and went into a really long tirade. His windows were up, I don't know if he heard me say "You are a Very Bad Man and should be ashamed! Are you trying to kill me? Would killing me make you happy? Isn't it great how much time you saved by trying to kill me? Oh, look, we're still both waiting at the same red light..." :o )

FYI, in Ohio the rule is that we should ride "as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable". I most frequently ride in the right wheel-rut of the lane, so that there is not quite enough room to pass me without actually thinking about it and passing partly in the other lane. Occasionally if the shoulder gives me enough room to maneuver in case of emergency, I'll ride closer to the white line.

We are also permitted to ride two abreast, except where posted in specific townships. Cops will hassle us for riding three abreast though, and they'll *really* give us a hard time where "Bicycles must ride single file" is posted.

Lynne

07-20-2005, 11:02 AM

(The worst was the time a car squeezed past me as his lane ended. I pulled up behind him and went into a really long tirade. His windows were up, I don't know if he heard me say "You are a Very Bad Man and should be ashamed! Are you trying to kill me? Would killing me make you happy? Isn't it great how much time you saved by trying to kill me? Oh, look, we're still both waiting at the same red light..." :o )

ROFLMAO! Ok, so I'm not supposed to say this...but you go, girl!!

I've decided it's ok to curse and mutter under your breath and give them the evil eye. That way they don't try to take you out with their vehicle/rifle/fists because they don't know who placed that evil curse on them (you know, the one that makes their car suddenly need $3K in repairs :D )

alison_in_oh

07-20-2005, 11:23 AM

ROFLMAO! Ok, so I'm not supposed to say this...but you go, girl!!

"You are a Very Bad _______ and you should be Ashamed" is what I am training myself to say instead of cursing. The above tirade is much more family-friendly than the one I offered to the guy who passed me on the right through an intersection, cut me off just before hitting a parked car, only to take an immediate left in front of me. His window was down and I chased him hard so I could keep letting him have it! Almost kept up with him too, I had him in sight for the next mile and a half.

So much anger isn't good for the soul though. I keep reminding myself to smile! I'm on a bike and it's a great day for a ride! :)

CorsairMac

07-20-2005, 12:17 PM

I was pleasantly surprised to find the state of NM allows me ride in the street with no restrictions if no bike lane is available. We can also ride 2 abreast Except in the downtown business district. I was also very surprised to find out no cars are allowed in the bike lane either to park or to use as a right hand turn lane. So Do I ride in the street with no restrictions? uhhhh no - coz the drivers here are basically nincompoops and I value my health and well-being! But when driving I will stay out of the bike lanes in the future if I'm making right hand turns.

The City of Albuquerque publishes a bike route map that they give out free which has all the state/city laws applicable to bike riders/horses/skaters. Cool idea!

latelatebloomer

07-20-2005, 01:26 PM

Welcome to latelatebloomer's class on The South Philly "YO!"

Forget about speaking from your diaphragm. That's not deep enough. It should start at the soles of your feet and burst upward explosively.
When practiced sufficiently, it can stop every living creature within 200 yds, dent sheet metal, and even get the bartender's attention.

Now ride your bike up the steps of the Philadelphia Art Museum and do a little dance. :cool:

jobob

07-20-2005, 05:40 PM

When practiced sufficiently, it can stop every living creature within 200 yds, dent sheet metal, and even get the bartender's attention. ooh I see this this can come in handy, can Snap and I have lessons?
Or care to join us on our next "Road Trip" ? :D

Grog

07-20-2005, 07:35 PM

Speaking of your voice coming from your feet...

I was on the bike path tonight riding at about 25 km/h (I rarely do that... especially at that time, like 6pm so there were many oncoming bikes) and there was a young girl (let's say 16-17 y.o.), no helmet, riding in the middle of my lane, chitchatting with the other girl riding with her, not looking ahead at all.

I yelled: "Mademoiselle, you are in the wrong lane" (that was in French) but I almost frightened myself, I could hear my own voice bounce and come back to me full strength. Poor girl... She was careless though. But I wish I would have stopped after "Mademoiselle"! I always have had a deep, strong voice, but that was really surprising, even to myself.

Needless to say, she moved to her lane.

CorsairMac

07-21-2005, 10:10 AM

:eek: :eek:
CMac isn't going to be riding badly in Montreal any time soon! ;)

julbee

07-22-2005, 04:09 PM

This is an interesting discussion!

I'm sure I'll have more to comment on as I gain more experience!
Denise, thanks for the "link" to state statutes.

After reading my state's laws, it's clear a very experienced road roder has been misinforming us of the applicable laws! I don't think he really knows... he seems to go by what he thinks is best, which makes sense from his point of view!

I have the "right" to do many things that are not in my best interest!
My husband and I were out riding on the roads just a couple of days ago.
I'd watched him as went ahead of me... on a very busy stretch of road.
I was thinking... that guy is nuts! He was exercising all of his riding "rights" even when it was clearly "detrimental" to do so! :confused:

We are finished our ride and he says: "Riding on the road is very dangerous! I was almost hit a couple of times! I'm going back to riding in the woods!"

Well... it can be dangerous. It's more dangerous when people insist upon doing whatever they feel the law tells them they have the right to... even when it's an error in judgement to exercise those rights at a given time/place!

Umm...if he continues riding that way... he really should restrict himself to off-road riding! I won't argue with that! :eek:

Lynne

07-23-2005, 10:58 AM

slinkedog

07-23-2005, 11:28 AM

This happens to me sometimes when I ride really early in the morning and no cars are out. I cautiously run the light, but I come to a complete stop and put my foot down before I go. I think if you treat the red light like a stop sign, no cop would cite you, but I could be wrong.

snapdragen

07-23-2005, 04:33 PM

DirtDiva

07-24-2005, 03:07 AM

I run the red. Unless there's cops around - dunno about here/elsewhere, but in NZ you can be fined just as much as a car/driver can (a couple of hundred dollars, I think).

DeniseGoldberg

07-24-2005, 04:45 AM

...When I'm bike commuting (and even some weekend rides) there are places that don't trip the light/signal for a bike. You guys have been posting that we are vehicles and need to obey the laws. So what do you?

I stop, unclip and stand. After looking to verify that there is no traffic, then I cross on the red. Otherwise I could sometimes be standing there for what seems like hours! I find it interesting that one of these "change only if cars are present" lights is right in front of the State Police barracks. At first I figured someone would come out and give me a traffic ticket, but it hasn't happened.

I think I remember hearing that the technology does exist to sense cyclists as well as cars (must be something other than a sensor in the pavement that's sensitve to weight, right?) but I've never seen a light change based on the presence of a cyclist. Bummer.

--- Denise

skibum

07-24-2005, 08:30 AM

I think I remember hearing that the technology does exist to sense cyclists as well as cars (must be something other than a sensor in the pavement that's sensitve to weight, right?) but I've never seen a light change based on the presence of a cyclist. Bummer.

The sensors aren't sensitive to weight, they are sensitive to the presence of metal. I think they try to set the threshold at a level to prevent false positives (from cars in other lanes, for instance) and that's high enough to keep a bike from tripping it. Supposedly, they can configure them to trip for cyclists and not have too many false positives but, like Denise, I've never seen a light change based on the presence of a cyclist so traffic engineers must not be bothering to make the adjustment.

I think the type of metal makes a difference too. I can trip the sensor on the gate to leave my neighborhood with my steel bike but not with my aluminum one.

CorsairMac

07-24-2005, 09:23 AM

Depends on the road: Fri I was on a very busy street and was the only "vehicle" going straight so I couldn't get the green to trip. In that case I went over to the sidewalk and hit the walk button than stayed there so I could get across rather then trying to get back onto the street. On Sun mornings in dead downtown, after stopping, (as in putting one foot down and taking my hinney off the seat), I run them. I have never been able to figure out what trips them coz there are lights I can't get my Harley to trip (yup....I run those too! :rolleyes: )

DirtDiva

07-24-2005, 10:58 AM

As far as I know, it depends on the shape of the thingamy under the asphalt too. Some don't cover enough area to pick up a skinny little bike.

tatormc

07-24-2005, 05:36 PM

I try to ride along the edge of the box that you can see in the payment which is the light trigger. If I manage to stay pretty straight on the line then the light will change if not I come to a complete stop and go when it's safe.

alison_in_oh

07-25-2005, 07:45 AM

Ok, along these lines I have a question. When I'm bike commuting (and even some weekend rides) there are places that don't trip the light/signal for a bike. You guys have been posting that we are vehicles and need to obey the laws. So what do you? Wait forever for a car to come along? Sometimes I've been (cautiously) running them. Sometimes I go over and hit the walk button, but then by the time I get back out in the road, it's already flashing, blah blah blah.

You're in Portland. :) I'm told that just after we left in 2002, a law was passed giving cyclists the right to treat all stop signs and I believe lights as Yield. That would make it perfectly legal for you to slow, look, and go!

That's what I do when riding solo. If no cars are coming to trip the sensor, I run it. If there is traffic, I err on the side of being a good example as a bike citizen, and travel as a car would.

EDIT: Upon Googling, I can't find support for this supposed law. :o However, it still stands that I feel this is a safe compromise.

MomOnBike

07-25-2005, 07:54 AM

I think some people mount rare-earth magnets to the bottom of their bikes to trip the sensors. It seems to work for them. Don't ask for more details, 'cause I don't know any.

SadieKate

07-25-2005, 08:29 AM

My town is full of pavement sensors. They are tripped by steel. Therefore, you either need to ride a steel bike, make sure the front person in your pack is on steel bike, hope a car shows up real soon, or use caution and go. This supposedly bike-friendly town thinks that is is "safe" to place the buttons for bicyclists on the far right side of a multi-laned road with both left and right turn lanes. Ah well, they also think that separate bike paths cutting across shopping mall entrances with the car stop sign beyond the path is a good thing. Oh, and let me tell you about the number of shopping areas where the bike path and the sidewalk are one and the same.

Dianyla

07-25-2005, 10:08 AM

I'm usually able to trip the sensor. Learn how to identify the magnetic sensor in the asphalt. This should look like a shiny black circular or square design that would be right underneath a car if it were in the lane stopped a few feet before the line. Some intersections also have a sensor line that extends over to the bike lane, and a bicycle can trip it easily, but the majority of intersections only have sensors for cars.

When I'm stuck at a light with no cars around, I scoot over to the car sensor and trigger it. Just standing with the bike upright over the sensor won't do it, you have to tilt the bike down and get more magnetic metal within a foot of the sensor. You also need a steel bike. With enough practice, you can get good at doing this while standing and keeping one foot clipped in.

The way I do it: I unclip my left foot, and then move it about 1.5 feet to the left of my bike. Right foot stays clipped in, positioned at the bottom of the stroke. I let go of the left handlebar and hold onto the bike with just my right hand, and I am keeping the brake lever squeezed so that the bike doesn't move forward or backward. Then, tilt the bike down to the left until it's about 8-10" above the pavement. Hold it there for 1-2 seconds, then just pull it back upright and move your left foot back in. This trips 99% of sensors in the Portland area.

And the 1% of sensors that I fail to trip, I just wait for the coast to be clear and then I run it.