Adventures in Foreign Finance

[ZenSojourner]

For the first time in months I went out today to do something fun just for me. (I care for my elderly father and haven't had a break in nearly a year).

Pulled out my debit card and much to my surprise it was declined. I hadn't used it since November and last I checked (along about February) there was still several hundred dollars in there.

Turns out that starting in early March, someone in New Delhi started emptying out my account by making multiple small charges on it. In a matter of days they had made off with $440 (about Rs 22,000, quite a tidy sum in India).

Since I had the card with me at all times, since I never write numbers like that down, and since it had been months since I'd ever used it and I'd only ever used it online 2 or three times about 6 months ago (mostly at Amazon), it never occurred to me that anything untoward might be going on with my account. Normally I check it about the end of every month, but I missed checking it in March because both my dad and I had been very ill about that time.

Needless to say I'm more than a little miffed at the CC company. They should have questioned sudden activity, DAILY activity, that was emptying the account (they got it all in about a week or less) IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY.

But this account isn't something I set up for myself, the school I attend forces all students to use this debit account through this company as a student ID. All your financial aid money is deposited into this debit account at the beginning of the semester. And the debit company makes it ridiculously hard to get your money out. If you opt out, the school makes you wait weeks longer to get your disbursement. The reason, of course, is that the school is getting a kickback from the financial institution they've got this set up through. There are a SCAD of fees associated with using the cards, so they're a very very bad deal for students.

Furthermore, on more than one occasion I've had mysterious charges show up on my account with names I don't recognize, and the CC company tells me they can't tell me the name of the store where those charges were made. I've got a charge on there from November to some "Maple Company Limited" or something and they actually told me to Google it to find out where it came from!!! The thing is that sometimes a shop will have be incorporated under a different name than the name of the store - which on other cards I've had shows up as both the incorporation, and either the shop name or an address and phone number so I at least know who I'm dealing with. Not these guys, you are SOL.

Hmmmm, I may just have become a rebel WITH a cause.

[Mr. Bloom]

A couple months ago, I had a new top of the line Dell delivered to the front door. :eek:$1,700. :mad: Ironically, a new business one was delivered to my office that day for setup, so I assumed it had been accidentally shipped to the house for some reason.

The next day, I figured out that this was not the business computer:eek: I called Dell and explained that I didn't order the computer...BUT, it was charged to the credit card that I keep in the saddle pack on my BIKE!

Dell explained that they were sorry that I didn't like the computer and offered me a 10% discount to keep it! I'm SORRY, you're offering me a discount on something I didn't buy!

Two months later, everything is finally sorted out, but I still don't know who ordered a computer, delivered to my house, using a credit card hidden on my bike!

[SadieKate]

Two months later, everything is finally sorted out, but I still don't know who ordered a computer, delivered to my house, using a credit card hidden on my bike!They don't need access to the credit card itself. A couple weeks ago someone in Florida had a nice shopping spree on one of my cards - used my number but a different name. Eagle-eyed Capital One shut them down immediately.

[ZenSojourner]

I can't figure out how they would have gotten the number. I almost never use the card, hasn't been used in 6 months. I usually use it as an ATM card, those receipts don't have the card # on them, and the company said any statements they might have mailed wouldn't have had the card # on them either. It has been in my possession at all times.

[Irulan]

obviously they have a security problem. I'd quit dealing with the dweebs that answer the phone and start looking higher up, plus cancelling the account. I'm not sure what regulatory agencies handle that kind of stuff, wish I knew. They can get numbers by hacking databases; by employees selling databases; random generation...


I read something kind of funny the other day about guys who buy and sell credit card numbers on the black market. I guess they've saturated their own market now.

[shootingstar]

There was a situation here in Canada where the thieves attached a device on the underside of the ATM machine somewhere which could read the client card numbers, etc. It was with one of the major established banks.

You need to pursue this theft problem as far as one can with screen printouts of the illegal withdrawals, etc. Otherwise how would it stop for your account?

Since you are in the U.S., I am not familiar with the different consumer financial service organizations and how they are structured/regulated. Here in Canada each of the major banks do have an internal ombudsman, also a federal government organization that regulates our banks here (which may explain why Canada hasn't crashed as badly in the mortgage credit fiasco), plus a 2nd different federal organization that is aimed at Canadian consumers to educate the public and provide direction on online financial frauds, etc.

[laura*]

Over on BikeForums.net there are a bunch of threads accusing Bike Nashbar of leaking credit card numbers. Did you order any bike stuff from there recently?

[ZenSojourner]

Nope, not in 3 years, and never with that card.

It's weird.

[IvonaDestroi]

Something similar happened to me, except they used my card number in my immediate vicinity so it was really hard to differentiate between my charges and theirs. (Fast food places, grocery stores, etc...)

They used tiny amounts at a time and over a 6 month period they maybe took a hundred out total. Finnally they spent $300 at a grocery store an hour drive from here and that tipped off the bank. It was only then I discovered all the fast food charges and public transit tickets they had been purchasing.

I had my card and have no idea how they got my number. The bank customer service rep said they were sliding a card to use it, and they must have gotten my number somehow and made a fake one (she said it was easy to do!)

Of course I have Bank of America, which steals money from me constantly. They said they would re-imburse me temporarily, and they did. Then, 6 months later they took the "temporary" money out of my account permanantly and with no explanation. I was told to mail them a letter (?). I did and they never responded. This goes right up among many other ways this bank has scammed me out of my money (they have a security guarentee for these things).

Other times they did not make my deposits available on purpose, without informing me, and charged me multiple overdrafts. Once a cashier stole $100 from me (a cash deposit) and it tooks 6 months of hassle and a great many hours on hold on the phone and multiple trips to the bank to get it back. In fact, every time I made a $2500 student loan deposit, $300 of it always went in to one fee or another that they came up with... they have probably stolen a couple grand from me over the 5 years I've had that account:confused:

[malaholic]

Zen, that's terrible! Is the card company holding you responsible for the charges or is there anything you can do to recover some of the stolen funds? It doesn't sound as though they are being very helpful to you at all. :mad:

If you've only used the card online at Amazon, it's highly unlikely that they'd have leaked it or have had their customer information hacked. However, if your computer somehow got infected with a keylogger or similar spyware, it's possible that some third party could have stolen the number undetected while you typed it in. I'd check to make sure your computer is clean before typing a CC #, or any other sensitive information.

Ivona, a similar thing happened to me, only luckily Discover triggered the fraud alert much sooner. My # was stolen while I was visiting NYC. The only time the card was out of my sight was when I used it to pay for a T-shirt in one store, and dinner in a restaurant, so apparently one of the workers must've had a side gig in identity theft.. The cc fraud person I spoke to said it's really common and that some of them have little reader devices they can hide in their palms, and it scans all the information which they then use to make duplicate cards later.

It's depressing how many crooks & scammers are out there. :( I know very few people who haven't gotten their card # stolen at one time or another.

[ilima]

Ugh. I'm sorry. I've had two cards hacked--a credit credit and my debit card attached directly to my checking account--in the last month.

My bank was more than happy to let the thieves empty out my account and then declare I had insufficient funds for a charge from a week before that had been approved. One of the orders was to Dell, who realized it was fraudulent and canceled it before shipping.

When I was at the bank yesterday they said that they'd have to let another $500 fraudulent charge still processing be taken from my account and then credit me late because 'it's automatic' and they can't decline it. BS--They were more than happy to not pay my optometrist's charge when it officially came through! That's a logical inconsistency!! Something's rotten at my bank. [Sorry! Can you tell I'm pissed at my bank?]

As soon as money shows up in your debit account, you might transfer it to an account like and ING orange checking account.

I'd also complain loudly to your school. Find out if others are having the same issues (I bet they are) and demand that the school take responsibility for playing fast and loose with your information.

[Mr. Bloom]

I can't figure out how they would have gotten the number.

About the time this happened to each of us, there was a widescale hack of one of the major processors...I think their name was Heartland???...

I had not used the particular card for months, so the only explanation to me is one of the processors or merchants. Merchant's terminals can be hacked if they don't use the mandated security technology.

[ZenSojourner]

\In fact, every time I made a $2500 student loan deposit, $300 of it always went in to one fee or another that they came up with... they have probably stolen a couple grand from me over the 5 years I've had that account:confused:

Ivona, get a different bank. Try a credit union. There are banks out there that will nickel and dime you to death, like the one you've got, and there are banks that have no-fee options. Get an account with no fees. There's no excuse for that.

I wouldn't be dealing with these a**holes except the school forces me to.

[Blueberry]

ZenS-

That sucks:mad::mad:

Try going to your school if you can't get relief from the debit card company.

Check you account agreement - usually you have a right to dispute the charges. I had my credit card company refuse to tell me who charges were from, and I disputed them since I didn't recognize them. Some were legit, and some weren't. However, it was more work for the company.

A couple of years ago, someone made a duplicate copy of my card and went shopping in NYC. They did 100 in groceries (to see if the card worked) and then 2000 at the Apple store. Thankfully, my card company caught it.

Responsible use of credit cards is far preferable to debit cards, as they have more protections for fraud usually. Plus, it's the bank's money that's missing, not the money you need to pay your bills. I understand that wasn't an option here because of school, but generally....

Good luck!

CA

[Biciclista]

bummer Zen
i hope you get it all sorted out soon.

i love my credit union~!!

[Triskeliongirl]

I am sure you can dispute the charges (but you do have to follow the bank's procedures). This happened to me. I got the last 2 charges back, but not the first one since more than 6 months had passed. I only noticed the most recent one, but went back over my older statements and saw there were more (someone in dallas was using my san antonio atm card, which was in my posession, to pay their DFW water bills!).

[Grog]

In one of the conversations I had with a Visa representative when my credit card number was stolen last summer, I was told that it was possible that the thieves just randomly generated my number. They generate a whole bunch and then try them on tiny items (like a $1 song from iTunes). The numbers that work are then used for bigger purchases.

I know that's not what happened in my case because they also had my old address, where I received a thank-you-letter for opening an account with some gambling service in the UK a few weeks later. But they did make a $1 iTunes purchase before proceeding to a $50 purchase at a computer store in Luxembourg and then a $500 at a gambling service.

CIBC Visa was spectacular in dealing with it. The first purchase in a foreign country after the $1 iTunes triggered their alarm system and they immediately called me to see whether I was in Luxembourg or buying things there, which of course I wasn't. The gambling money never made it though authorization, and the other charges were reversed very quickly.

My new credit card has a chip on it, and I read recently that we are just about to get debit cards with chips. Now if all business can move on to the chip-based authorization, things will improve a great deal!

[Tater]

ZenS, sorry to hear about your misadventures in foreign finance!

Add my husband and I to the list of victims of credit and debit card thievery within the last couple months. Same as Grog, it started with the $1 iTunes purchase and then a couple more smaller charges. Thankfully, the fraud department of our card company was on the ball and caught the shenanigans before it got too far out of hand.

[shootingstar]

Either I'm just lazy or just want to reduce possibility of problems, but I don't use debit machines at all.
I only use ATM directly installed inside the bank building itself. Not the independent companies outside of the major banks.
I will try to use my bank's ATMs to avoid interbanking charges with competitor bank ATMs. Yes, it's peanuts charges....but my lifestyle makes it easier to plan small withdrawals.

It is possible..to live like this ...remember we don't have a car, cellphone. :D And helps me budget very carefully.

I was stunned a few years ago when my brother-in-law told me he never uses any ATM machine. Not sure about my sister. But they have 2 children (now grown). Now that takes abit of coordination.

Guess he just didn't trust what the thieves can do in terms of technical gadgets and trickery. He has a PhD in engineering and teaches at a major Canadian university.

[ZenSojourner]

This particular card is issued by a bank that doesn't even have a branch in the state, let alone in town.

The only place you can use it as an ATM card is on campus.

If you use it as a debit card they charge you a fee. If you use it at any other ATM machine besides the 3 on campus they charge you a fee. If you try to write checks on the account they charge you a fee (plus make you buy checks from them).

I always use it as a charge card because of this, or for the ATM machines on campus.

In fact usually I go to the ATM and take out the $500 max every day until I've got it all and then put it in my regular credit union account, but the last semester was hell on wheels for me and I never got around to emptying the account out. This was partly due to the fact that the only place I can use an ATM without a fee is on campus, quite some distance from where my classes are.

This account is a really bad deal for students and the campus authorities ought to be ashamed of themselves for forcing students into using it.

[Grog]

I always use it as a charge card because of this, or for the ATM machines on campus.

Out of curiosity, can you explain how you do this? Do you just tell the cashier how the card should be used? Not being in the USA I am not familiar with ATM cards that can be used as charge cards, but I can see how that would be an interesting system in some regards. Do you need to sign anything when you use it as charge card? Or punch a PIN?



This account is a really bad deal for students and the campus authorities ought to be ashamed of themselves for forcing students into using it.

It does sound like quite a dubious deal. I wonder what kind of kickback the university gets from the bank.

[Irulan]

In the US, atm cards are issued by Visa or Mastercard. In many places you have the option of doing a debit/PIN transaction, or a signature/charge transaction ( still debited out of checking account) This is different than using is as a credit account based card. Some cards are debit only.

[Skierchickie]

We got hit by something(s) recently. One day DH got a call from the credit card company (State Farm Bank), asking if he'd downloaded one song from Itunes that morning. Apparently someone used our card number, but didn't get the 3-digit code on the back right, so they caught it immediately. They issued us new cards right away. I am really impressed that they were so on the ball, after hearing the horror stories others have to tell.

Then, a couple of days later, he got a letter from our local bank saying that his debit card may have been compromised (the issue Mr Silver mentioned with that processing center). But not mine. So he got a new debit card. In both cases, it was caught before anyone successfully stole from us. We were lucky.

Ivona - I'd definitely find a different bank, if I were you. I've never heard of anything like that.

ZenS - that's awful. Your school is rotten. :(

[ZenSojourner]

Well I went through yesterday and filed a dispute for each and every one of these bogus charges. This "bank" makes you file separate reports for every charge, and there are about 30 of these.

They denied them ALL.

Sent me an e-mail (for EACH DISPUTED CHARGE, so like 20 or 30 e-mails) with a list of generic questions and told me I had to provide this information and REFILE another dispute for each and every one of these bogus charges. AGAIN.

These were along the lines of has the card ever been lost and then you found it, was the card in your possession, etc etc, very generic questions that should have been include on the dispute form they make you fill out online to start with. No reason these questions shouldn't have been asked right up front, and in fact I answered them over the phone when I initially called.

Anyway it took me 2 hours to go through and refile all those disputes. And I'm told I'm going to have to do it again and again and again, so they can be sure I'm telling a consistent story (eg they're trying to catch me in a lie).

In the meantime, they put me on hold for 48 minutes waiting to talk to a supervisor, then switched me to voicemail, which cut me off because I didn't have a "mailbox #".

Jeez! At least I caught it before the 60 day window to file a dispute had passed.

[Irulan]

ZenS - that's awful. Your school is rotten.

uh YEAH.
I'd go down to the financial office and get past the front desk people to show them what's going on. I'm sure you'll get the brush off but it is a start. I wonder if what they are doing by limiting your options is somehow illegal? This kind of stuff really pisses me off. There are a lot of nasty, predatory, customer-no-service card companies out there and it sounds like you've got one. Perhaps a call to your state attorney generals office, consumer division, might be in order before you go much farther. LOL, maybe a call to Dave Ramsey, too.:D

I've had to deal with these types of companies of behalf of a relative who has some brain damage, and was taken advantage of in a number of ways by cards.

Schools can be a total pain in the butt. My son's college won't accept VISA for tuition payments, only MC. Why? "that's what the board voted on". Stupid.

[Grog]

Schools can be a total pain in the butt. My son's college won't accept VISA for tuition payments, only MC. Why? "that's what the board voted on". Stupid.

The real reason is that credit card companies take a pretty hefty fee on transactions, and the board was trying to find a few pennies to save. UBC saves $2 million a year by no longer permitting people to use credit cards to pay tuition (since 2008). My bet is that your son's college probably got a very good deal from MasterCard... In current times of severe financial restraints (for universities funded by public monies and by endowment income alike) they are getting aggressive at it! They know it's unlikely that they will lose a student because of that.

Thanks by the way for the explanation about the charge cards!

[Tuckervill]

We got scammed again--this time on a Chase Visa. Unusual charges--Chase blocked them all, and we're getting new cards.

What is up with all this illegal activity in my midst all the sudden? My middle son pays his car payment to the same bank that has his checking account--the bank took his car payment out SIX times on the same day, and when they went to fix it, could only manage to fix 4 of them. Now he can't pay his rent and has utility checks bouncing. What's this about????

Oh, and he developed shingles from the stress!

Karen

[ZenSojourner]

OMG, that's awful! The bank should be responsible for all fees as a result of their mistake. Somebody made a data entry error most likely, but it shouldn't be that much hassle to fix it.

My son just got a credit card, wanting to develop a credit rating. What happened to the good old days when paying your bills, utilities, and rent was sufficient for a credit rating? Now they make you borrow money before you can borrow money.

My brother has been on a payment plan as a result of a partial bankruptcy. They haven't credited his house payment properly for 6 months. No one can figure out why, not even the bank apparently. His payment plan is supposed to be up this month but they've not credited any of his last several months payments to his house payment principle, it's all being tagged as "interest" and the bank can't fix it. No wonder our economy is in the shape it's in, the lunatics are running the asylum!