Gender and pro cycling [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

spazzdog

05-06-2005, 02:13 PM

Melody

05-06-2005, 02:30 PM

There's more, but I am really interested in other folks views, in cycling or any other sport for that matter.

spazz

Spazz, I agree with you, but I'm also a very open person. I'm bi myself and when I worked at Microsoft, I was a member of GLEAM (Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender Employees At Microsoft) and was active locally.

I just personally don't get the discrimination. :/

Mel

spazzdog

05-06-2005, 02:38 PM

THe article is very good... it takes a sympathetic view of her position. I'd recommend reading it.

This forum has such a great mix of women of different lifesyles, ethnicity, cycling experience, cycling goals... many have played other sports, or no sports at all.

I just thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss...

Discrimination confuses me too... all kinds of discrimination. It seems (and I know this is a very simplistic answer) to always be fear/ego based.

spazz :cool:

singletrackmind

05-06-2005, 02:48 PM

Maybe they are under the impression that all you have to do is velcro some melons on and voila! woman???

On that train of thought maybe these "they" people feel they are competing with a man decorated with some baubles?

I don't know much about transgender stuff (I know there's a heck of a lot more to it than velcro and baubles) but if she's truly got girl capability and no longer has "man strength" then the theys need their train derailed and reset.

Who you are inside is who you are whether you like it or not so you might as well BE who you are. :)

MightyMitre

05-06-2005, 03:10 PM

I live in Brighton, which is pretty much the unofficial gay capital of England. Each year we have a HUGE pride march in August which attracts thousands of people and it's fantastic. A lot of shops and restaurants round here sport the rainbow badge in their windows, there are a lot of gay clubs, the best being called Cruise (which is I think is a great name for a club.) Gay men and women are very open here, holding hands, kissing, doing the kind of things everyone does. I love living here - mainly for the fantastic diversity of people.

There was a case a few years ago in England about Time Trialling, where among other things the regulations specify you provide your gender as at birth, which would obviously be problematic for a TG competetor. I didn't follow the story right to the end, but basically the girl in question argued that although born male she was now female and should therefore compete against other women, not men.

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

In my current ignorant state, I could understand how, if a girl found herself on the startline with someone who was TG - they may be suspicious that the TG rider may have an unfair physical advantage because they still have male genes.

Would this really be the case? :confused:

Melody

05-06-2005, 03:21 PM

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

There's no shame at ignorance. It just means you don't know. :)

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

Nope. Without the continued testosterone in the system, the muscles begin to atrophy and it requires a considerably more amount of training and exercise for them just to keep what they had. Add in estrogen and muscle strength goes down. Remove the testosterone factory, and it goes poof. (sorry about any mental images :rolleyes: )

In my current ignorant state, this is what would concern me if I found myself on the startline with someone who was TG - the idea that they may have an unfair physical advantage because they have male genes.

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.

Now, I've got am FTM (Female to Male) friend and he's the opposite. He's of small stature, but strong muscles, which would give him an advantage in some sports.

Mel

slinkedog

05-06-2005, 03:26 PM

Well, the only reason I would see for there to be a problem is with the possibilities that MM stated. But if the hormones equal out or even diminish the aerobic/muscular advantage that a biological male would have, then who cares??

MightyMitre

05-06-2005, 03:45 PM

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.
Mel

Never really occured to me but that would make sense...

Certainly in the UK it can be a very long and tiring battle, taking years, to even to get to the first discussions with doctors about surgery, so I'm guessing that the guts, sticking power and determination someone would need to undergo reassingment would spill over into the sports arena.

People may sneer at a TG competitor on the podium and make claimes that is just a 'boy with boobs' - but could they claim to have the same level of deterimination and committment...?

MightyMitre

05-06-2005, 03:48 PM

Eeek :eek: - just read my reply and it sounds seriously patronising.

What I mean is, if you've had to work extremely hard in one area of your life, chance are you're not afraid of hard work and are more likey to have the right mentality to make you a winner on and off the cycle track.

spazzdog

05-06-2005, 04:16 PM

I think the "reason" that sent me reeling was the one about her being able to see and assess the course with "guy eyes".

To take that one to a more light-hearted point, isn't it women who always yell about men who have no sense of direction and their refusal to ask directions. Are these the "guy eyes" we're talking about?

As to the whole hormonal thing... oh, yeah. Their strength and bone density decline big time with the addition of estrogen and deletion of testosterone.

If anyone has the magazine, give the article a read and let us know what you think.

singletrackmind

05-06-2005, 05:01 PM

Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?

When I raced people used to call me the chick that rides like a guy. I'd fling myself at anything, quickest route possible and pass other women who were off the bike-it won me a lot of races. That's prolly what they mean by "guy eyes"?

singletrackmind

05-06-2005, 06:36 PM

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200404/michelle_dumaresq.html
an old article-interesting.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/MichelleDumaresq.html
and another.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/MichelleDumaresq2.jpg

Irulan

05-06-2005, 07:10 PM

the article clarifies that while you must list the sex stated on your birth certificate, TG folks are permitted to have that listing changed once the surgery is completed.

~irulan

spazzdog

05-06-2005, 07:47 PM

singletrack... the Bike mag article is also about Michelle Dumaresq and that history up to now.

thanks for the additional links!

spazz

MightyMitre

05-07-2005, 04:02 AM

From the article posted by singletrackmind:

"Today, we all fight against doping and try to be natural athletes," says 26-year-old French downhiller Anne-Caroline Chausson, who won her seventh world championship in 2003. "Don't we open a door for genetically modified athletes—or worse? Why not clone Carl Lewis to race against Marion Jones?"

Are they suggesting TG folks are genetically modified? That's pretty offensive.

Earlier I was talking about how I thought a TG rider may have unfair advantages, having still got male genes etc, but dope testing - esp. that for testosterone which is VERY easy to spot - just blows that argument out of the water. A TG rider would be required to have the correct levels of testosterone for her sex, along with all the other competitors in her cat.

Trek420

05-07-2005, 05:58 AM

singletrackmind "Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?"

Funny, I wasn't thinking of aggresision at all I was thinking of spatial sense. My ex partner, a very butch gal which is very different from FTM she had no gender identity issues at all whatsoever so this is off-the-off-the-subject but she used to kid me "no, you're not butch at all, don't kid yourself, you have no spatial sense".

That's true, faced for example with a small car trunk and multiple suitcases I'm at a total loss. On the other hand I have a photo somewhere (one I haven't torn up jk) of her in front of her PT crusiser trunk with about 4 people's stuff neatly fit.

I don't think you can generalise about even this: plenty of women architects, engineers, in construction these days and we know that the lack of them in the past had to do with prejuidice in the fields not a lack of spatial sense.

But do men see space differently, "can I ride between that rock and the tree?"

LBTC

05-07-2005, 06:55 AM

this is a great discussion! way to go TE forum!! :D

okay, so first, about spatial sense. I am no engineer or architect (maybe I should have been?) but I used to pack our 2 door tracker after a trip to vancouver with all our bedding and overpacking, for the return trip home after shopping at IKEA and Costco. DH calls me the packing queen... The point I make here is - if being able to pack tons of stuff into a small space is spatial sense, I've got it in spades!!

however, on the bike, it took *years* for me to gain the ability to see the "lines" the guys see, to feel comfortable pulling a wheelie (still not good at it), to feel no fear flinging myself through a rough patch or a steep area (and that's still not as often as the guys do). I've always attributed this primarily to my lack of history on the bike. As a kid I didn't get the opportunity to ride my bike as often or in the same conditions as the boys (seriously, I was forbidden from riding it in the trees!!) I've often said that we women mostly are just not as used to having something between our legs :eek: :)

I'm not arguing that Michelle shouldn't have the right to race, I think she's cool and am impressed with her results. (and love that she's wearing a jersey from the shop where DH bought his bike, probably the same shop that will finally fit my road bike for me in a few weeks) Racing at that level takes many many attributes, tons of work and a determination that I'll never have. I think I'm just trying to understand that concept of "man eyes", and whatever else people might complain about.

The article had a lot of references to her boyhood, the amount of time she spent on her bike, the type of riding she did as a boy...I think that's an advantage for her. But it's not something that a girl couldn't have done, so it really has nothing to do with the issue, right? I've known young girls who are out there just as much as the neighbourhood boys, so, just because I missed out on making fearless biking as natural as breathing, doesn't mean that all women would have to.

By the way, thank you to Melody and Spazzdog for enlightening me. I've learned a lot more about people who have undergone this transition. It makes it much easier to understand. :)

Namaste,
~T~

bounceswoosh

05-07-2005, 08:15 AM

I just read a very interesting article in the June issue of Bike magazine called Venus Envy

The article really bothered me. Its seems a transgender woman (M->female) took up mtn biking. She got really good, started competing as an amateur, then as a pro. Some pro women protested her right to compete (not when she was amatuer, and only when growing talent threatened their podium finishes), she was suspended. Reinstated by Canada's IOC and other governing bodies she still gets dissed when she podiums.

*snip*

I dunno ... am I the only one who's wondering if this is really fair? How often do people beat the pros in the very first year they compete? Especially people who smoke?? I absolutely agree that hormones can do a number on you -- anyone who's taken hormonal birth control methods must know that -- but on some level, she still has her old body. She still has the same brain. If her heart and lungs were bigger than a woman's before surgery, I seriously doubt they shrank; I don't think it works like that (but I'm no expert).

Then again ... as the article points out, there's plenty of confusion about what sex really means. (As I understand it, one can identify oneself as female in gender while still having male body parts, or vice versa; "sex" is another matter.) We'd like to think that male and female are the only choices, but there are grey areas, like people who've always thought they were women because of outward appearances but are physically male on the inside. And then there are people who are physically simply predisposed to being better at certain things. Certainly a tall person has an advantage in volleyball; a lean person has an advantage in long-distance cycling; every sport has its key characteristics. Some sports even have weight classes. So I guess the question is, what does the governing body consider "fair enough" for a given sport.

I've even wondered if women shouldn't compete against men, in general ... I don't know that women would ever close the gap, but I think they'd narrow it considerably. I've seen what happens when individual women are forced to compete against men; they get better. It's just a human thing; once one person breaks a record, others swiftly follow. That being said, if everyone were competing together, women athletes would almost certainly get even less support than they get now. Maybe women as professional athletes would just disappear. So that's pointless.

So where was I? Oh, right. If I think any one thing about all this, it's that it hilights the fact that we never compete on an even field. The question is, what boundaries will we set on the spread of the field? It's clear that Michelle would be at a disadvantage competing against pro men; the question is, is she at an unfair advantage competing against pro women? I don't know that medical science has done enough studies of TG women to answer that question.

spazzdog

05-07-2005, 04:01 PM

Bounce, though I understand your wondering at the "fairness" of it and at the concept of "level playing fields", I'd ask you to consider this:

Michelle, the cyclist under discussion, is a big woman... 5'10" or 5'11", 180 lbs and extremely athletic. She is lesser is stature, due to the female hormones, than she was as a male. I would ask that you look at a few of our U.S. collegiate womens basketball teams. Women of equal size and athletic prowess, though in a different sport. I'm guessing that their heart and lung capicity is probably comparable due to their lives playing in a sport also dominated by men... meaning they created their level playing field by raising their game.

I firmly believe that, given the talent and the willingness to dedicate oneself to a sport, a woman has as much of an opportunity to be as good as any guy.
That is not to say we women will necessarily make the same money... but we can be as good. It's society at large that continues to place our monetary worth as "less than".

Another athlete... a male, wanted to be on the national synchronized swimming team. He got so much crap. I can't remember the outcome, but I heard about it and said "more power to him". We should be free to pursue our passions... sport is a free expression and should be free of gender limitations, discrimations and preferencial treatment.

God knows if, at 50 yrs of age, I suddenly popped up with enough talent (due to hard work) to be competitive on the amateur road racing circuit, questions would be asked, accusations made. It's sad really.

As to Michelle's perceived advantage in the womens field, I'm with Missy Giove. I believe her quote was "Quit bi#$ing and get off the brakes!"

spazz - hoping she made sense with that tome of blather

susan.wells

05-08-2005, 03:09 AM

I have to buy the magazine and read the article. My interest has been piqued. Thanks for posting this spazz!

Susan

Melody

05-08-2005, 10:24 AM

God knows if, at 50 yrs of age, I suddenly popped up with enough talent (due to hard work) to be competitive on the amateur road racing circuit, questions would be asked, accusations made. It's sad really.

Any time something goes outside of what most consider "the norm" eyebrows shoot up, questions start being asked and acusations levelled. Look at what's happened in road cycling with all of the acusations against Lance and others. "How can a man who once had cancer ..." :|

The question of how fair a competition is always comes up. I too agree that women, if they put their mind to it, can do anything a guy can, but it comes to a question of will power. Unfortunately, society doesn't help us in that regard.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step-daughter Alex a few years ago. She was over visiting and telling me that she doesn't think she wants to go into science or math. Understand that Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math.

Needless to say, I was livid. If I was anywhere near where her school I would have reamed him. To tell someone something like this is just wrong.

I told Alex that she could do anything that she had the willpower to accomplish. That things could be difficult, but achieving the goal is that much sweeter because of the struggle.

Unfortunately, the world isn't fair. The best thing we can do is try to make the most of what we're given. Think of those who've gotten cancer and beat it or some other disease such as MS or diabetes and fight and struggle to make the most of their lives instead of laying down and saying "it's not worth it."

We have within ourselves to be the best we can be, if we're willing. :)

Mel

DirtDiva

05-08-2005, 01:58 PM

Thanks for posting those links singletrack - interesting reading. Would be interested to read the article in Bike magazine too. Kudos to Ms Dumaresq - it's not like there are a whole lot of transgendered people out there providing role-models in sports.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step-daughter Alex a few years ago. She was over visiting and telling me that she doesn't think she wants to go into science or math. Understand that Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math.

Needless to say, I was livid. If I was anywhere near where her school I would have reamed him. To tell someone something like this is just wrong.

:mad: I'll go kick his arse myself. Or perhaps I'll roll up my science degree and use that to knock some sense into the idiot... How could a teacher say that to a student?!? Might have to roll up my teaching diploma and put it in the other hand... :mad:

Total aside:
Hey there MM. I'd forgotten you were from Brighton. Was in your neck of the woods on bank holiday. Not bad (except for the bit where I forgot to bring the sunscreen).

Trek420

05-08-2005, 02:16 PM

Melody posts "Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math."

This is outrageous, he needs to find another line of work one that has no contact with kids.

A woman I know who is a scientist was once told by her college counselor "you should major in chemistry, it's more like cooking" :mad:

MightyMitre

05-08-2005, 02:38 PM

A woman I know who is a scientist was once told by her college counselor "you should major in chemistry, it's more like cooking" :mad:

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :mad: :mad:

People should be allowed to do what ever they want to do. If a girl wants to be a coal miner or a lumberjack for example then let her.

However, I think there's different jobs that men and women are better at. I've been doing a lot of job seeking lately and 95 % of the peolpe I've come across working for recruitment agencies, have been women. These are commission based jobs so a lot of them work very hard and are very motivated, but helping people find a job / career calls for a lot of the skills that women are good at - listening, having empathy and being good at talking! :)

As this thread is all about tolerance and acceptance I'm not going to start 'boy bashing'. They're great too.... most of the time ;) :p

O/T
Hi tlkiwi - yeh, last Monday was great - v.sunny. Are you over here for work or for hols?

spazzdog

05-08-2005, 03:21 PM

Idealist that I am, I think its more than tolerance... its acceptance.

I mean, I tolerate bad weather, office dress codes, traffic jams but I can't say I accept them. I can't stand any of them.

People however I try to accept. With all their differences. I've always believed that no one is superior because of gender, race, religion, political affiliation, etc. I believe we each are more in control of our future than we realize sometimes.

A woman, a man, a woman that used to be a man, or vice versa, society pushes the "gender" thing. If everyone said "phhhhuuttt" to that, it would be great. Put babies in whatever color they look cute in, or when they are old enough whatever they like. I'm always confused by the desparation sometimes exhibited by parents to "be certain" people know the gender of the new baby (blue for boys, pink for girls). It's new, it's chubby, it has hair or it doesn't, its cute... when I'm gootchie-gooing all over the little punkin heads I certainly don't care if its a boy or girl. Course, I'd probably let them choose their own name when they got old enough.

I know... I'm odd. A very dear friend of mine who is oh so very astral/astrological/metaphysical based told me once I wasn't from this planet. That this was my first life on earth. Sometimes I think she was right...

:cool: spazz

LBTC

05-08-2005, 04:25 PM

spazz, you and I have more in common than I realized! I mean, I've been called (and calling myself) spaz, for many years, but this whole tolerance vs. acceptance thing is something I thought only I had noticed. Just talked about it with another friend last weekend. It was the first she'd thought about it too.

I have learned, as I get older, I am less tolerant of the rednecks that live around here and all the judgemental mumbo-jumbo that goes with them (yes, I realize the irony of that, and I've come to accept it in myself). I also have noticed that I am more accepting of different ways of thinking, different lifestyles, different sexual orientation, etc, as long as I see evidence that a person is truly trying to find themselves and their true beliefs, etc, I have a lot of respect for them.

Life is irony. I spend each day learning to accept that all over again.

:D

you rock, spazz! ever find yourself in British Columbia??

namaste,
~T~

spazzdog

05-08-2005, 05:02 PM

Thanks LBTC! I was hesitant at first when I started this thread. I really appreciate everyone's involvement and responses.

As to B.C. - uh, where would you be; east or west Canada? I'm so very geographically challenged.

I've not been out of the U.S except once... Vancouver in 1990 for the Gay Games.

spazz

LBTC

05-08-2005, 06:35 PM

:o Vancouver is in BC. I'll be there in two weeks to visit a friend. :D I'm a 5 hour north/east drive from there....
and we don't get nearly as much rain here! :D

here's to acceptance! :p

Namaste,
~T~

singletrackmind

05-08-2005, 06:56 PM

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/01/17/summers_remarks_on_women_draw_fire?pg=2

The president of Harvard University, Lawrence H. Summers, drew a lot of criticism when he made the comment that innate differences between men and women might be one reason fewer women succeed in science and math careers. The above link is page 2 and contains the worst of what he said. He says he was misunderstood.

Maybe the science teacher picked up on what he had to say and decided then and forever after, girls just can't do science. I know a few news stations were treating it as gospel before critics bashed it but good. The damage a few words can do is frightening. :mad:

snapdragen

05-08-2005, 07:04 PM

I know... I'm odd. A very dear friend of mine who is oh so very astral/astrological/metaphysical based told me once I wasn't from this planet. That this was my first life on earth. Sometimes I think she was right... :cool: spazz

Not that odd, I had a friend tell me the same thing! Maybe we're from the same planet? :D

snapdragen

05-08-2005, 07:06 PM

LBTC - one of my favorite places in BC is the Kootenay Mtns, Nelson/Kaslo area. How far are you from there?

Ohh! Another cool place for a TE gathering!!!

Melody

05-08-2005, 08:55 PM

I know, for me, I just accept people they way they are. Everyone has quirks or idiosynchroncies (sp?) that will drive other people nuts. I know I have 'em (I talk too much and repeat stories... over and over and over and ...) but these are what make people unique, not cookie cutter. I treasure my friends and their uniqueness, even if I don't understand or agree with them.

I was had two friends who were satanists, and being Roman Catholic, you'd think I'd be at odds. We never discussed religion. They just believed in a higher power that was different from the one I believed in. I didn't agree with their religion, but I did agree that they had the right to believe what they wanted. They were good people (bf & gf). They used to volunteer on a regular basis at various shelters. As someone once said, "Good done in the name of Evil is still Good, just as Evil done in the name of Good, is still Evil." :p Just our definition of Good & Evil were reversed. heh.

Mel

Trek420

05-08-2005, 09:12 PM

snapdragen "Not that odd, I had a friend tell me the same thing! Maybe we're from the same planet? :D"

snap, I'm just reading this and looking at your bunny avatar and cracking up. Beam me up,Scottie I wanna go to *your* planet!

LBTC

05-08-2005, 09:24 PM

spazz and snap...hmmmm. My brother told me he knew where all 4 of our siblings had been before this life, but me he didn't know. he thought I might be "new". doesn't really explain how many people I already knew the first time I met them, though, does it? :rolleyes: I think buddhist monk thrown off a cliff....but I dunno...

anyway, we're a good 6 hours out of the kootenays / nelson area. pain in the rear to get to from here, actually, but gorgeous country. who knows? lots of our plans with other people seem to be unraveling this year. maybe we'll head that way this summer.....anyone from there on this board?

Namaste,
~T~

DirtDiva

05-09-2005, 03:38 AM

O/T
Hi tlkiwi - yeh, last Monday was great - v.sunny. Are you over here for work or for hols?

Both: I'm yet another twenty-something Kiwi over here on a two-year working holiday visa. :)

chelle

05-10-2005, 12:05 PM

Hi everyone, Michelle here.

I've been reading all of your responses to this thread and I must say that this is rare. What usually happens is people make a bunch of off base assumptions about me and then top it off by calling me "it" or "thing". I usually only respond when the thread is respectful and this has been.

As I'm sure you can imagine there is much more to any story than can be printed in a magazine. Even if you have seen the film "100percentwoman" you still don't know everything that went on over the two years that the film was made. I have received an incredible amount of support from people who share a similar history or from people who were just touched in some way. That being said there are many people out ther who wish that I would just go away. Intollerance is still prevellant even if most of us wish that it wasn't.

For the past couple of years it's been my role to not only be a professional athlete but to also be the "posterchild for trans athlete's". Balancing these has been very difficult and I always hope that I've made the right decision to be public. I'm not sure that I'll ever know.

I certainly do not expect everyone to agree with me being able to race but I do expect people to inform themselves before making any judgements. Most of what has been said here is correct. Loss of muscle mass, decrease in bone density, decrease in red blood cell production and changes in brain chemistry all contribute to my "case". If I thought that I had an unfair advantage I would never compete. In sport we all try to use our natural advantages. In my case I have several attributes that I feel make me a very good downhiller and probably not a good xc racer. Sport is never an equal playing field and the notion that there is a purity to sport is a dream. Everyone can ride a bike, many can compete but few will ever make it to the elite ranks. There ae many factors that make a great athlete, dedication, skill, natural ability, luck. There will always be some who excell is certain sports and others who do not. I am just very fortunate that I get to compete and one day I hope that having an athlete with a trans history in the field won't be a big deal.

Thanks to you all for this disscusion and your support.

Always smilin

Michelle Dumaresq

Melody

05-10-2005, 12:14 PM

Hi Michelle! Wow. Never expected someone we were talking about to post here. :) That's pretty cool. :) Anyway, wanted to say Welcome to the TE Forums :) Taking a page out of CM's book, you should say hi and post in the "Getting to Know You" (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=2001) thread. :)

Mel

slinkedog

05-10-2005, 12:27 PM

Michelle... very cool to have you here! Welcome to TE and we hope to hear more from you! Hang in there and follow your heart. :)

It's so very true about all of us being different and there not really being a level playing field. My husband is a great cyclist... has wonderful instincts, strong legs and the ability to keep going when he's in serious pain... but he has had really horrible VO2 max readings when he's been tested. His aerobic capacity is such that he was just not able to go past cat 1 status to pro level. So, you live with your body the way it is and get on with life, right? :)

DirtDiva

05-10-2005, 01:02 PM

Thanks to you all for this disscusion and your support.

You're welcome, and it's great to see you here. :)

spazzdog

05-10-2005, 01:07 PM

Keep on pedalin' Michelle... and keep on winning. Folks will either raise their game (which I'm certain they can if they put their mind/body to it) or they'll quit... and I don't get the impression that at your level of competition there are a lot of quitters out there.

Stick around grrl! This is a great place to hang out.

spazzdog

CorsairMac

05-10-2005, 01:24 PM

welcome to the board chelle!......isn't this a great place to come "home" to?....I have yet to see anything here that I thought was disrespectful or narrow-minded or cruel....and I've seen that on other boards. It's why I'd rather hang here than do my job! :rolleyes: I hope we hear more from you - I'm betting you've got tons of advice you can share with us!

MightyMitre

05-10-2005, 01:44 PM

Great to hear from you Chelle and thanks for posting.

I echo CorsairMac - this really is a special place to visit. I was looking on another board the yesterday and the abuse and personal insults were just beyond belief! There was a TEN page thread which started out as a debate about whether helmets should be made compusory in the UK, but by 3 pages in it had degenerated into personal insults, sexism, aggressive language...I actually said to my BF - 'Never in a million years would you see anything like this on TE.' :)

Looking forward to getting to know you. Great to have you here :)

Irulan

05-10-2005, 01:52 PM

fixedgeargirl

05-11-2005, 09:43 AM

Welcome to TE, chelle!! I think you'll find that your presence, insight and experience will always be welcome and RESPECTED here. Thanks for joining us!

I'm late to the discussion, but LBTC makes an interesting point here:

however, on the bike, it took *years* for me to gain the ability to see the "lines" the guys see, to feel comfortable pulling a wheelie (still not good at it), to feel no fear flinging myself through a rough patch or a steep area (and that's still not as often as the guys do). I've always attributed this primarily to my lack of history on the bike. As a kid I didn't get the opportunity to ride my bike as often or in the same conditions as the boys (seriously, I was forbidden from riding it in the trees!!)

The article had a lot of references to her boyhood, the amount of time she spent on her bike, the type of riding she did as a boy...I think that's an advantage for her. But it's not something that a girl couldn't have done, so it really has nothing to do with the issue, right? I've known young girls who are out there just as much as the neighbourhood boys, so, just because I missed out on making fearless biking as natural as breathing, doesn't mean that all women would have to.

LBTC was forbidden to ride in the trees!!!! How many times did we who were *born and raised* girls hear "be careful, don't get hurt, don't get dirty, and another good one for mtb'ers: don't fall"!! As if!!! Like getting hurt, bleeding, crying would just be the end of the world? Researchers have found that parents give these words of caution to girls much more often than they do to boys, delicate maidens that we are :rolleyes:.

Point being, Michelle's activities as a boy most likely do factor into her riding, the way her psyche handles these situations. But that's a function of nurture, not nature. Like the girls LBTC sees doing tricks with the boys, like the 8 year old girls I've seen skiing the double blacks, it's all about what you are allowed/expected to do. Those early, repeated messages sink in deep, and can be hard to shake.

Keep winning, Michelle!! Maybe you are here to serve a bigger purpose in your role (chosen or not) as the "posterchild" for the trans-gender community. That can't be easy. But it is important. These issues must be discussed, hashed out, studied, whatever. Kudos to you for standing up and standing out :D :D !!!!

chelle

05-11-2005, 01:25 PM

It's true, of course that as a kid I had the experiences and expectations of a boy but that's not to say some other women didn't have the same experience. Missy Giove grew up in Brooklyn playing with all the boys. Anne Caroline Chausson was a bmx champ at 7. These women had the encouragement at an early age to "play like the boys" and they went on to achieve great things. I'm so happy when I see a parent encourage their little girl to do things the boys traditionally do like get dirty. Times are changing. I've said jokingly "don't blame me, blame your parents" All through my youth my parents bought my siblings and I what ever sporting equiptment we wanted. They said that they would rather buy us a bike or a hockey stick than have us wandering bored and getting into trouble.

LBTC

05-11-2005, 09:41 PM

thank goodness there are moms and dads out there that encourage their kids to do whatever they love!! (riding in the trees was not the only thing I was forbidden to do...heh) The rest of us just start out behind. Nothing a lot of focus and determination can't fix.

:p

glad you've joined us, chelle!

Namaste,
~T~

annerol

05-12-2005, 09:26 AM

thanks to all of you for an interesting and thought-provoking thread. when I first read the inital opening comment, I jumped to conclusions. Then, as I read, my thoughts evolved as I read through your comments. I still see it as a many-sided situation, but feel so much more open / educated / tolerant.
Thanks!
Anne

RoadRaven

05-13-2005, 06:42 PM

Just thought I'd share with you one of my favourite songs... the lyrics reflect alot of this thread very clearly

Hope all you girls who were small boys on their bikes like it...

I won’t forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand.
I said I was a boy, I’m glad he didn’t check.
I learned to fly. I learned to fight. I lived a whole life in one night.
We saved each other’s lives out on the pirate deck.
And I remember that night when I’m leaving a late night with some friends
And I hear somebody tell me it’s not safe, someone should help me.
I need to find a nice man to walk me home.
When I was a boy, I scared the pants off of my mom
Climbed what I could climb up on
And I don’t know how I survived, I guess I knew the tricks that all boys knew
And you can walk me home, but I was a boy too.

I was a kid that you would like, just a small boy on her bike
Riding topless, yeah, I never cared who saw.
My neighbour came outside to say, “Get your shirt,” I said “No way,
it’s the last time I’m not breaking any law.”
And now I’m in a clothing store, and the signs say Less is More
More that’s tight means more to see, more for them, not more for me
That can’t help me climb a tree in ten seconds flat.
When I was a boy, see that picture? That was me.
Grass-stained shirt and dusty knees.
And I know things have gotta change, they got pills to sell, they’ve got implants to put in, they’ve got implants to remove
But I am not forgetting
That I was a boy too.

And like the woods where I would creep, it’s a secret I would keep
Except when I’m tired, except when I’m being caught off guard.
I’ve had a lonesome awful day, the conversation finds it way
To catching fireflies out in the backyard.
And I tell the man I’m with about the other life I’ve lived
And I say now you’re top gun, I have lost and you have won
And he says, “ Oh no, oh no, can’t you see
when I was a girl, my mom and I, we always talked
I picked flowers everywhere that I walked.
And I could cry all the time, now even when I’m alone I seldom do
And I have lost some kindness,
But I was a girl too.
And you were just like me, and I was just like you.”

By Dar Williams, 1995
From the album (CD) ‘The Honesty Room’
Copyrite; 1995 Razor & Tie Music, LP The Grapevine Label Ltd., 12 Oval Rd., London