Shifter question

[RoadBunner]

I finally made it out today to a LBS that had both Treks and Orbeas. A very helpful salesperson got a gorgeous Orbea Onix Dama adjusted for me, and off I went on a test ride. I felt scarily stretched out and a little unstable in the front end. I wasn't too sure if this was just me being new to road bikes, but definitely knew I had felt more comfortable on other bikes. I had a sad moment as I said goodbye to the pretty Orbea :(

When I brought it back in, she commented that it did fit me, but it was on the larger side for me and the Trek would probably be better since it came in a smaller size. They didn't have any Treks in my size. So I went back to the Trek LBS I had been to before and rode a Madone 4.5 WSD and a Madone 5.1 WSD. The Madone WSD geometry is SOOO much more comfortable for me. I feel stable and safe. The 5.1 was definitely lighter but I can't justify the difference in price. I'm going to go with the 4.5 WSD.

However, I LOVED the Ultegra that was on the Onix and the 5.1. It just seemed to shift so much smoother. The brakes on the 5.1 were also more responsive but LBS man says he can probably emulate that feel by changing the brake pads.

The first LBS said that since the rear derailleur is already Ultegra in the 4.5, I could upgrade the shifters to emulate much of the feel of the Onix. She didn't think the difference in the crank/cassette was what I was appreciating. This upgrade would cost $75.

So finally to my question...do you think it is worth $75 to upgrade just the shifters to Ultegra? The second LBS didn't think it would make a huge difference (but he's willing to do it), but LBS #1 thought it would.

Thank you!

[KnottedYet]

If it feels different to you, and you like the feel, go for it!

In the long run of delicious bike love, $75 isn't much.

[SadieKate]

Yes! Shifters make such a huge difference in the long run. Ease of shifting and comfort over the miles will be energy saved and less pain. $75 is peanuts for upgrading shifters.

[madscot13]

I'd like to be able to upgrade AWAY from my down tube shifters.

[KnottedYet]

MadScot - how 'bout moving to bar-end shifters ($25 for bar-end adaptors) or turning your shifters into thumbies like Rivendell sells kits for?
http://www.rivbike.com/search/run?query=shifters&commit=Search

[Zen]

Excuse the hijack but...Mad, I had no idea you had downtube shifters! maybe you should treat yourself to that new bike :D

[Bad JuJu]

And if shifting is easier/smoother, you'll be more likely to shift when you should rather than avoiding it until you've waited too long. I've had this experience when I upgraded from downtube shifters to barends on my touring bike and then to Campy integrated brake levers-shifters on my road bike. Now that shifting is so easy, I do it before I have to--much easier on my poor knees!

[VeloVT]

Do shifters really make a bigger difference than derailleurs? I thought it was the other way around. Why do the levers make so much difference? (I'm asking this sincerely -- I really didn't know).

However, switching out to Ultegra shifters for $75 seems like a good deal. You might ask what they would charge to swap out the front derailleur too -- they're not a terribly expensive part to begin with (at least compared to shifters), so it might be worth an extra $35 if you could do it that cheaply...

ETA: FWIW, I have read that Ultegra brakes *are* considerably stronger than 105s. I have never used 105 calipers -- my 105 bike has cantis, so I have no personal opinion on this -- but given your impression, it might be worth googling for some reviews.

Also important to remember that how well the bikes are tuned makes a big difference in how well they shift -- I can remember test-riding an Ultegra bike that had buttery shifting, followed immediately by a Dura-Ace bike that had OK, slightly rattley, slower shifting... Sometime the bikes on the floor aren't kept perfectly tuned (and sometimes the mechanics who put them together do a sloppier job than one would hope the first time).

[aicabsolut]

Do shifters really make a bigger difference than derailleurs? I thought it was the other way around. Why do the levers make so much difference? (I'm asking this sincerely -- I really didn't know).

However, switching out to Ultegra shifters for $75 seems like a good deal. You might ask what they would charge to swap out the front derailleur too -- they're not a terribly expensive part to begin with (at least compared to shifters), so it might be worth an extra $35 if you could do it that cheaply...

ETA: FWIW, I have read that Ultegra brakes *are* considerably stronger than 105s. I have never used 105 calipers -- my 105 bike has cantis, so I have no personal opinion on this -- but given your impression, it might be worth googling for some reviews.

Also important to remember that how well the bikes are tuned makes a big difference in how well they shift -- I can remember test-riding an Ultegra bike that had buttery shifting, followed immediately by a Dura-Ace bike that had OK, slightly rattley, slower shifting... Sometime the bikes on the floor aren't kept perfectly tuned (and sometimes the mechanics who put them together do a sloppier job than one would hope the first time).

I agree. 105 brakes SUCK. (that's what I have and there are a couple of roads where I have to stop on a pretty significant downhill. major suck every time). DA brakes are supposedly awesome, but for the money, you can't beat Ultegra for value and performance. When I was bike shopping, I wound up with an Ultegra/105/FSA mix of components. Between the Ultegra and 105, the Ultegra is much much better. I will eventually upgrade the rest of my 105 stuff, especially the front derailleur which pisses me off to no end. There was a huge jump not just in components but in frame material between my bike and the next one up. I believe the same is true for the Trek. So, you will be getting a lot more with the 5.1. Now 105 levers can be a little "sticky" feeling, and I have to lube them up periodically. I think if you're considering upgrading immediately that you might want to reconsider the 5.1. If you want to postpone upgrading and you really want to stick with the 4.5 price point, then the 4.5 is good enough.

[SadieKate]

Do shifters really make a bigger difference than derailleurs? I thought it was the other way around. Why do the levers make so much difference? (I'm asking this sincerely -- I really didn't know).Different levels of shifters can have different mechanical design. The throw to shift can be shorter/longer and pressure needed can be lighter/heavier. The shape of the hood can be vastly different.

I have heard that DA shifters require a very light touch to shift compared to Ultegra and I have seen that the DA hoods are narrower. Both of these being great for small hands. I don't know how Ultegra compares to 105.

[7rider]

I moved from Ultegra to Dura Ace. Ooooh, my. Love the DA! Such a nice, light snap.

I think upgrading shifters from 105 to Ultegra would be a good thing....and definitely cheaper to do it now than to upgrade at a later time. If you can swing the additional cost (or can haggle them down a smidge), than I'd say do it.

Hijack on:
And...MadScot: Check out: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/bik/615089423.html
It's in Fredneck....maybe Zen can scope it out for you....if it's still available.
Hijack off.

[Bad JuJu]

Do shifters really make a bigger difference than derailleurs? I thought it was the other way around. Why do the levers make so much difference? (I'm asking this sincerely -- I really didn't know).
Oops--terminology error--I was mainly talking about shifter location as far as making a difference in how often I'm willing to shift. OTOH, I DO find my Campy Veloce shifters easier to handle than many of the Shimano shifters I've tried-not sure which grade they were, though.

[SadieKate]

Location of the shifters usually has to do with comfort and reach. You need to find what is optimum for you and beware that some bars "meld" better with some shifters.

Until the new Dura Ace came out, general consensus was that Campy required less pressure to shift. I can't remember though, does the new DA have as many trim points as Campy?

WAY bad bar and shifter positions*
http://www.terrybicycles.com/cycling_savvy/fastwoman.html

OK bar and shifter positions
http://www.terrybicycles.com/cycling_savvy/isispro.html

Mo' bettah bar and shifter positions
http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=07Roubaix

Generally, you want the top of the bar to be level from the side and the hood to seamlessly meld into it. You don't want the divot that your hands slide into because it puts pressure on the wrong places.

With each bar/shifter combo you sort of have to experiment to find this place and look for the optimum reach at the same time. I also set up my shifters to point inward a hair as it is more comfortable for my wrists.

*Both hubby and I saw this in the new Terry catalog and were rather horrified. What was Georgena thinking?

[GLC1968]

SK - I don't know if this is true as I'd never be able to ride this way due to my super short legs...but a couple of the guys I used to work with had shifter locations similar to the ones on that Fast Woman you posted. I asked how that could be even remotely comfortable and they insisted that it was... When I next saw them riding, I knew why. They had their seat significantly higher than their bars. This meant that their bodies and arms were already somewhat angled downward over the bars and level bars and shifters would have cocked their wrists up. They had to have them tilted that way to be comfortable. Maybe Georgina displays the Fast Woman that way as their 'race' bike? I agree that it looks totally awful, but I also ride with my saddle and bars almost level like 90% of the people I know! ;)

Oh, and I agree that Ultegra shifters are worth $75 and while you are at it, I'd also ask about an Ultegra front deraileur. I switched from 105 to Ultegra with my last bike and it felt worlds better. Personally, I'll definitely stick with Ultegra going forward (for the zippy road bike).

[SadieKate]

Yeah, if you look at a lot of the pro-racer boys they're riding very small bikes for their size which does mean exactly what you say -- their torsos are much farther forward over their bars than the average rider. Of course, they also spend the entire race on the hoods and have the core strength to do that.

And these guys are about, what, less than 0.5% of the population?

And you also notice that it is the rare race that goes over 5 hours in the saddle.

[VeloVT]

Different levels of shifters can have different mechanical design. The throw to shift can be shorter/longer and pressure needed can be lighter/heavier. The shape of the hood can be vastly different.

I have heard that DA shifters require a very light touch to shift compared to Ultegra and I have seen that the DA hoods are narrower. Both of these being great for small hands. I don't know how Ultegra compares to 105.

yeah, this is true. The 2008 Ultegra on my new bike is much lighter-shifting than the 2004 Ultegra on my old bike (which felt about the same as the 2005 105 on my cross bike -- both require a big shove to shift into the large chainring, whereas with the newer Ultegra shifting into the big chainring is basically the same as shifting the rear der.). But this is a separate issue from shift quality I think (how smoothly, quickly and reliably the chain actually shifts). I was wondering more whether different shifters actually affect those issues as much as derailleurs do? It seemed like the original question was more about shift quality than shift feel (though I definitely agree that shift feel is important), and there certainly are differences in shift quality between different components.

[madscot13]

Hijack on:
And...MadScot: Check out: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/bik/615089423.html
It's in Fredneck....maybe Zen can scope it out for you....if it's still available.
Hijack off.


Excuse the hijack but...Mad, I had no idea you had downtube shifters! maybe you should treat yourself to that new bike :D


MadScot - how 'bout moving to bar-end shifters ($25 for bar-end adaptors) or turning your shifters into thumbies like Rivendell sells kits for?
http://www.rivbike.com/search/run?query=shifters&commit=Search

this has become a thread hijack! Zen was wondering about down tube shifters earlier; they still exist and are a pain to shift with- especially when you are moving uphill.

My bike was designed as a touring bike, and therefore the components sacrificed durability and constancy for the more creature comforts, if I can call it that. I was thinking about moving to the bar ends, but I tried to consider why I wanted to switch in the first place. I would like to shift with greater ease and especially without knocking my knees or having to stop pedaling. But the bar ends still sound appealing since they should be trouble free just like my down tube shifters.

And 7 you are pure evil. That bike looks really nice, and I was seriously thinking of getting another bike. For that price that would be the upgrade on my trek 520. However, I'm a short 5'2" and even the small might be a bit painful for me however. But at that price I could switch out the wheels.... Or maybe not.

[boy in a kilt]

I've ridden with down tubes, bar ends and brifters (I hate that word, but there is no other generic term for the STI/Ergopower shifters).

The only thing I miss about down tube shifters were their simplicity. When indexing started to become common in the mid-late 80's, I could never quite get used to it so I tended to run them in friction mode. Didn't have a bunch of springs and lever to mess with. You had that screw that doubled as the index/friction mode on the right side.

When I made the jump to STI in 1992, I fell in love with it. One of my physics professors in college said he didn't see what all the commotion was about, but he made the change to find out for himself. As it turns out, he found he was shifting more.

I've never been a huge fan of bar ends. My big complaint is that I tended to hit my knees on the things which hurt and frequently put me in a gear I didn't want to be in.

But, a lot of the rando riders like them (down tubes or bar cons) because of their simplicity. If a brifter breaks down 500km into 600km ride, you had better be able to fix it yourself or accept the DQ for getting it fixed somewhere.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Ergopower. They use a different mechanism than STI (neither of which I understand). They have a crisper feel and more trim than STI. And you can completely rebuild Ergopower shifters which is not the case with shimano.

However, with that all said, if you switch to Ergopower, you had best plan on using a Campy cassette. I have Phil Wood hubs which aren't compatible with Campy cassettes. The spacing on the Ultegra 10 speed cassette is similar but not identical to Campy so while it works, it's not quite right. My wife's drive train is all Campy and her shifting is much crisper than mine.

Here's why that is an issue. Shimano's widest range 10 speed cassette is a 12-27. Personally, I'd like a 12-30 but I take what I can get.

[SadieKate]

I've ridden with down tubes, bar ends and brifters (I hate that word, but there is no other generic term for the STI/Ergopower shifters).

I've never been a huge fan of bar ends. My big complaint is that I tended to hit my knees on the things which hurt and frequently put me in a gear I didn't want to be in.Ditto and I just can't operate them with my small hands. At least not comfortably in high speed or very low speed situations. Just can't get quite the leverage I like.


However, with that all said, if you switch to Ergopower, you had best plan on using a Campy cassette. I have Phil Wood hubs which aren't compatible with Campy cassettes. The spacing on the Ultegra 10 speed cassette is similar but not identical to Campy so while it works, it's not quite right. My wife's drive train is all Campy and her shifting is much crisper than mine.

Here's why that is an issue. Shimano's widest range 10 speed cassette is a 12-27. Personally, I'd like a 12-30 but I take what I can get.

JTEK SHIFTMATE FOR THE BEST IN ITALIAN-SUSHI SHIFTING!
http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

Stocked by the best shops to work with Campy which has a 29 as their largest 10 spd cog.;)

PS - SRAM at least makes an 11-28 10 spd cassette.

[RoadBunner]

Don't mind the hijacking :) I like reading about all of it to learn about everything!

Well...I tossed and turned all night thinking about the Onix. Kept wondering if there was something I should have asked about to fix the stretched-out feeling. Went to LBS and talked to someone and they switched out the handlebars to smaller ones. Made a heap of a difference! The guy even commented that the stock handlebars were pretty huge. The change brought my hand position in over a cm without messing with the stem length (he was reluctant to go that route saying it would make the bike twitchy).

So I ended up buying the Onix Dama! I hope I made the right decision. I got a discount so the price ended up being pretty close to the Trek, especially considering the Onix has more Ultegra SL and I'm more in love with the look of the bike.

I will say the Trek fit was very comfy and now, even if I don't feel stretched out so much, I feel like the Onix has more aggressive geometry which I'm hoping is something that I just need to get used to after only riding upright bikes.

I got clipless pedals put on but no shoes yet. Wasn't a fan of any of the shoes that the store had. :o So my next mission is to get a pair of shoes then the LBS will put the cleats on for me. Can't wait to get riding!!

The thing about going to so many LBS's is that they all have different opinions and sometimes it's hard to know who is right and who isn't or what shade of gray to follow.

The LBS I ended up buying from doesn't have the best down-the-road-we'll-take-care-of-you policy (first 3 months versus life-time from other stores), but I have found some other very nice LBS's that I wouldn't hesitate to take the bike in for service in the future.

Sorry so long-winded! Thanks everyone for there help so far. I'm sure I'll have lots of more questions soon.

[boy in a kilt]

JTEK SHIFTMATE FOR THE BEST IN ITALIAN-SUSHI SHIFTING!
http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

Stocked by the best shops to work with Campy which has a 29 as their largest 10 spd cog.;)

PS - SRAM at least makes an 11-28 10 spd cassette.

I've thought about the shiftmate and I may go with that option. It's one of those things that hasn't actually bothered me enough to fix.

The 11-28 is a bit of a conundrum to me. Previously, I had a 28-42-52 and a 11-34 (9-speed obviously). I noticed that while the 28x34 was good for certain circumstances (like riding my bike fully loaded over the Cascades), I didn't use it for much else and when I did get into that gear while climbing, I was pretty much stuck. Likewise, the 52x11 was only used for 50 mph+ descents.

I spent some time thinking about it and decided if I could part ways with my bailout gears and the hyperdrive (as in "Making the jump to hyperspace..."), I could probably come up with a more useful combination. Hence the move to a 30-40-50 front and 12-27 rear. For 99% of my riding, I'm happy. At the low end, I can make a pretty smooth transition from climbing speeds to normal riding speeds. Also, it's made me a stronger climber for obvious reasons.

There are times when it would be nice to have something just a little bit smaller. If you know of someone that makes a 28 tooth inner chain ring that is compatible with a Campy triple, I'm all ears.

[SadieKate]

TA 74 mm Bolt Circle Diameter triple innermost ring for Campagnolo cranks, you say? :D

My favorite seller is Branford Bike in Seattle but it looks like he may be out of them. Since you're close tho', give him a call.
http://www.branfordbike.com/cgi-bin/perlshop/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=push&thispage=chains/chains1.html&ORDER_ID=375171608#item8

You can try Peter White --
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/chainrings.asp

maillotpois, I can hear you sniggering . . . . .

PS - I run a 26-40-50 Campy crank and MP runs a 28-42-53

[boy in a kilt]

TA 74 mm Bolt Circle Diameter triple innermost ring for Campagnolo cranks, you say? :D

My favorite seller is Branford Bike in Seattle but it looks like he may be out of them. Since you're close tho', give him a call.
http://www.branfordbike.com/cgi-bin/perlshop/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=push&thispage=chains/chains1.html&ORDER_ID=375171608#item8

You can try Peter White --
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/chainrings.asp

maillotpois, I can hear you sniggering . . . . .

PS - I run a 26-40-50 Campy crank and MP runs a 28-42-53

I'll give that one a look once I have the money to drop on TA chain rings. I'd completely forgotten about them. Thanks.

[madscot13]

this has become a thread hijack! Zen was wondering about down tube shifters earlier; they still exist and are a pain to shift with- especially when you are moving uphill.

My bike was designed as a touring bike, and therefore the components sacrificed durability and constancy for the more creature comforts, if I can call it that. I was thinking about moving to the bar ends, but I tried to consider why I wanted to switch in the first place. I would like to shift with greater ease and especially without knocking my knees or having to stop pedaling. But the bar ends still sound appealing since they should be trouble free just like my down tube shifters.

And 7 you are pure evil. That bike looks really nice, and I was seriously thinking of getting another bike. For that price that would be the upgrade on my trek 520. However, I'm a short 5'2" and even the small might be a bit painful for me however. But at that price I could switch out the wheels.... Or maybe not.


does that bike look like a compact? what does that exactly mean?

[KatyLady]

I looked at one last fall. Tried real hard to talk myself into it because it was so pretty . . . but it just didn't fit. Maybe if my LBS guy had been as good as yours I would be riding around on a beautiful Ordea instead of waiting . . and waiting . . . and waiting for the custom steel I have on order. I'm sure you will be happy with the Ultegra. I have it on my current bike and would have stayed with Ultegra if I hadn't run across a really good deal for a Dura Ace set that I plan to put on the new steel steed.

Congrats again!