Seeking Bike Fit Help

[Ana]

Hello!!!

I love this forum and I'm having a difficult time finding the right fit for me, in part because I am a very new rider :)

I ride a 2007 LeMond Tourmalet WSD 49cm and I love it :) I thought about getting a men's bike since my torso length is long for a woman and I have a shorter inseam but my hands are so small, the WSD handlebars really made a difference for me. I had not been fitted correctly when I bought the bike and was suffering from some neck and back soreness which I remedied by moving my reach from the hoods to the bars nearest me (mistake!!!). I didn't realize how unsafe this was until I decided to go back into my LBS to be fitted in hopes of relieving my neck and back pain and they pointed out that in a more upright position, I couldn't really engage my brakes in case of some emergency...:(

The first adjustment my LBS made was to replace my saddle. Apparently I have very narrow sit bones (a 130mm fit) and so I was not perched at the correct level to begin with. Wow, what an instant difference!

I also had my stem shortened because I felt too stretched out on my bike. Now that I have a shorter stem, though, my elbows and knees (although on different planes) overlap in their motion paths when I'm in the drops. Is this normal??

I don't ride in the drops very much, as I am not as in shape as I was hoping to be at the end of last summer but I wanted to make sure I had the fitting proportions right :)

[VeloVT]

Geez, I'm not sure it's possible to answer this question without seeing exactly what you're talking about... I think it's a matter of degree, and a matter of your personal riding mechanics.

When I am "low" in my drops (elbows bent a significant amount), I have a good deal of elbow/knee overlap. It's not a problem since I ride with my knees pulled in pretty close to the top tube, so my knees aren't hitting my elbows. However, is your position such that when you are in the drops, your thighs hit your chest? If that is the case, that is a bit of a fit problem, and probably means you need to have your bars higher (not necessarily closer). When your knees are hitting your chest, it restricts your range of pedaling motion and probably puts you in a crunched up position that constricts your breathing (and it's not very comfortable). I guess I wouldn't be inclined to worry about the knee/elbow relationship in and of itself very much -- it's more a question of how you feel on the drops, and whether your hip angle is really crunched up (I bring this up because *if* you are crunched up, it's almost certain that you will have a lot of knee/elbow overlap -- but you could have overlap without being crunched up).

Other people who know more than me will probably be able to help more :D.

[Kathi]

I'm reading this the same way as Liza and your thighs are hitting your chest then you need to have your handlebars raised. I have this issue due to short arms and it wasn't until I had a refit on my bike that the problem was discovered. BTW, the guys wanted to put me in a a very low position but it was uncomfortable because I had no space. After having my handlebars raised I no longer bump my chest and ride in the drops all the time now. It's a very comfortable position.

Also, be sure that your handlebar width is correct. For years I rode with 38cm handlebars which made it difficult for me to reach the brakes from the drops. I actually need 34 cm handlebars, which were difficult to find but make such a difference for me, comfort and reach wise.

[KnottedYet]

I *love this book! He talks about fit and all kinds of cool stuff! If your library doesn't have it, it's well worth ordering a copy from your LBS or Local Bookstore.

Andy Puitt's Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists. by Andrew Pruitt and Fred Matheny. Published by VeloPress, www.velopress.com

[VeloVT]

another thought, and this is totally out of nowhere and unlikely to be relevant, but are your cranks an appropriate length given your height/inseam?

[Zen]

Andy Puitt's Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists is available as an eBook at Road BikeRider's bookstore (http://www.roadbikerider.com/bookstore.htm#Andy_Pruitts_Medical_Guide_for_Cyclists_0) for $12.95

[Ana]

Geez, I'm not sure it's possible to answer this question without seeing exactly what you're talking about... I think it's a matter of degree, and a matter of your personal riding mechanics.

When I am "low" in my drops (elbows bent a significant amount), I have a good deal of elbow/knee overlap. It's not a problem since I ride with my knees pulled in pretty close to the top tube, so my knees aren't hitting my elbows. However, is your position such that when you are in the drops, your thighs hit your chest? If that is the case, that is a bit of a fit problem, and probably means you need to have your bars higher (not necessarily closer). When your knees are hitting your chest, it restricts your range of pedaling motion and probably puts you in a crunched up position that constricts your breathing (and it's not very comfortable). I guess I wouldn't be inclined to worry about the knee/elbow relationship in and of itself very much -- it's more a question of how you feel on the drops, and whether your hip angle is really crunched up (I bring this up because *if* you are crunched up, it's almost certain that you will have a lot of knee/elbow overlap -- but you could have overlap without being crunched up).

Other people who know more than me will probably be able to help more :D.

Hello All,

Thank you for your insight :)

What I'm wondering is, if from a side view of someone riding a bike, the space where the knees come up on the top of the stroke, do the knees overlap space with the elbows while in the drops :)

I don't think my thighs necessarily hit my chest but....I'll have to check :) I think it's awfully close. My seat and handlebars are almost at the same height but I am a rather short person (5'3") and my inseam is about 29"-30". My crank length is 165 but doesn't the fit depend upon the length of your calf:thigh ratio?

I think my handlebar width is mostly correct, as I am quite broad-shouldered and now have a 38 :) I have had some neck pain before I was fitted but I'm hoping my saddle/seat height will address this (if not, I will go back into my LBS).

Hmm...anyway, I haven't yet found the drops comfortable and am only getting accustomed to my new bike fit on the trainer inside (too much snoooooow).

[VeloVT]

what is it that you are finding uncomfortable about riding in the drops? or, *how* is it uncomfortable?

you might want to go back to the shop that fit you and tell them you feel like your fit needs to be tweaked a bit. I think a lot of places will do some amount of follow up free.

I tried really hard to find some side-view pictures of pro riders riding in the drops, but I couldn't -- seems like when they're in the drops, it's usually a sprint and the camera catches them from the front or at best, on the diagonal as they're coming around a corner. However, it looks like many of them have some degree of knee-elbow overlap in the drops. Try a Google Image search and you should get some idea. Of course, not that looking at pictures of pros is the best way to determine whether or not *your* bike fits :D, but fwiw.

[Starfish]

Of course, not that looking at pictures of pros is the best way to determine whether or not *your* bike fits :D, but fwiw.

Then again, if the pros, in their extreme positions, are having some knee/elbow overlap...I'm guessing we should expect at least some, too? Or, maybe not if our bars are higher, I guess.

I have some knee/elbow overlap, and right now it is OK because my bars keep my hands a bit outside my knees. I also wonder if my setup is right, though.


Also, be sure that your handlebar width is correct. For years I rode with 38cm handlebars which made it difficult for me to reach the brakes from the drops. I actually need 34 cm handlebars, which were difficult to find but make such a difference for me, comfort and reach wise.

I'm curious about this, because I have small hands and brake reach issues. Are your bars now significantly narrower than your shoulders? If so, is that an issue for you in any way?

[VeloVT]

I'm curious about this, because I have small hands and brake reach issues. Are your bars now significantly narrower than your shoulders? If so, is that an issue for you in any way?

Starfish:
My new bike came with Shimano R700 short-reach shifters. My hands are not that small (if I'm buying leather dress gloves, I often need a women's large for length -- for athletic gloves, I'm usually a women's medium), and I was never aware of it being a big problem. But the short-reach shifters are very nice and they DO make shifting/braking more comfortable. They make it much easier to shift into my big chainring.

Something to consider...

(sorry for hijack).

[Starfish]

Liza, PM coming your way... :)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

What I'm wondering is, if from a side view of someone riding a bike, the space where the knees come up on the top of the stroke, do the knees overlap space with the elbows while in the drops :)

I don't think my thighs necessarily hit my chest but....I'll have to check :) I think it's awfully close.

Maybe I am all wet, but I can't even imagine being so bent over that my thighs would be hitting my chest when I ride. Is that what racers do? What are your riding goals and what is your riding style?

[Veronica]

Don't feel like you have to only ride on the hoods or in the drops. You can ride with your hands on the bar and you can get to your brakes in an emergency. Being able to change your hand position gives you options on a longer ride.

Here's my position when I'm in the drops. The GPS says 37 mph. This was our ride around Crater Lake, so I was more interested in the scenery than in going fast, hence no aero tuck. :p

V.

http://tandemhearts.com/coppermine/albums/oregon-2007/crater-lake/P1000350.jpg

[VeloVT]

Lisa, I don't think anyone meant to imply that her knees *should* be hitting her chest :).

As I said above, *imo* (which, in combination with $3 or so, will just about buy a tall cappucino at Starbucks :o) if your knees hit your chest it's a sign that something's wrong -- probably at least one of the problems being that the bars need to come up. If it just happens when you're in the drops, it could also indicate that you might benefit from a slightly longer stem (and possibly a longer stem with more rise, or a longer stem + spacers).

I don't know what the pros do, but I doubt they ride that low because it compromises efficiency. Having been on bikes that put me in that position, it's just not comfortable and it prevents you from getting the most out of your pedalling. BUT -- you may have knee/elbow overlap in the drops even if the bike fits well.

[Kathi]

I was curious about this so I got on my trainer to see where my knees hit in relation to my arms.

I dropped my elbow low enough that it hit my knee. My elbow hits exactly in the center of my knee right above my knee cap.

I'm quessing that there is 2-3" of space between my thigh and elbow when the pedal is in the 12:00 position.

Starfish, no my bars are not significantly narrower than my shoulders. My shoulders were measured at 34cm.

I use Campy Record and got the Modolo Venus handlebars. They are a dream come true for me because they come in a 34 cm and the drop is designed to bring the reach of the brakes closer so I can reach them with my small hands.

[Kathi]

I don't ride in my drops all the time either but when I'm on a downhill I do brake from my drops. Maybe it's because of my small hands but I have more braking power from the drops than the hoods.

Since I've been using my drops on downhills I've noticed the number of riders, men and women, who do not use their drops. One friend of mine says she feels insecure but I've found that I feel more in control and secure on downhills when I'm in my drops, even on short downhills.

[lph]

I'll definitely be nagging my bike shop about this now, come spring and road riding. My thighs hit my chest at the drop of a ... helmet ;) (and believe me, it's not because of my voluptuous bosom :D), either when I ride in the drops, or when I ride where most comfortable out at the very front of the hoods and tuck in to minimize drag. I sit like Veronica here when I have my hands on the hoods! I think I need to:
a) lengthen my stem
b) tilt it up
c) check out shallower and maybe narrower handlebars, as I really have trouble reaching the brakes in the drops, and don't mind keeping my hands closer on the top.
I have a lot of knee/elbow overlap, and it doesn't bother me. Maybe it would with narrower handlebars, though?

[Ana]

Don't feel like you have to only ride on the hoods or in the drops. You can ride with your hands on the bar and you can get to your brakes in an emergency. Being able to change your hand position gives you options on a longer ride.

Here's my position when I'm in the drops. The GPS says 37 mph. This was our ride around Crater Lake, so I was more interested in the scenery than in going fast, hence no aero tuck. :p

V.

http://tandemhearts.com/coppermine/albums/oregon-2007/crater-lake/P1000350.jpg

Veronica,

Your picture was so helpful! I tried to look for pics of pros in the drops too but could hardly find any! The best I found was bike fitting videos on youtube but they didn't really go over drops position either :(

You look like you have a LOT more room than I do in the drops....The funny thing is that I went in initially to have my stem SHORTENED because of back/neck pain (and I felt too stretched out onto my handlebars) but maybe it was the wrong adjustment... Hm, I'm a bit confused now. I wonder if my frame is the right size....

[Kathi]

Although I'm not in my drops here is a picture of me on my Serotta shortly after I got it. The picture is the last post in the thread. http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=19474&page=2

My other thought is that the width of your shoulders will determine where your arms and knees will align.

[Ana]

I wonder if I'm just not as flexible as you are because I have a hard time bending over that far, especially since I"m not an aggressive rider.

[Veronica]

Are you talking about my picture or Kathi's picture?

I don't think I'm bent over that far at all. My saddle and my handlebars are at about the same height, so that when I do go into the drops, I am not bent that far over.

I just did my yoga workout, so I know I can bend a lot further than that. :D

V.

[GLC1968]

Ana -

The way you describe your body is exactly how I would describe mine (short but with a long torso, short legs, small hands (and I also have short arms). I'm 5'4" and I ride a 19" terry (48.5 cm)...so we are quite similar. My bars are the same width as yours, my cranks are the same length and my saddle and bars are at the same height as each other. My guess is that your stem is probably too short. When I had my bike professionally fitted (a 3+ hour procedure), she lengthened my stem and lowered it. I was concerned about comfort being less upright than I thought I should be, but with a little core strengthening, I was fine. (and I mean 'little'...it didn't take much!). What I got out of the deal was WAY more comfort on the bike overall. My back, neck, shoulders, elbows and hips felt better not only while I was riding, but better once I got off the bike even after a 6+ hour ride. I also greatly increased my power, so I *finally* was able to keep up with my fellow riders in the flats (where they always used to drop me). This was just a bonus, too...I was mostly being fit for increased comfort.

I basically only use my drops in a descent (in the picture in my avatar) or in a flat when I'm trying to hang on to the 'big boys'. Most of the time, I ride on the hoods. As you can see, I'm not all that bent over and my knees do not hit my elbows. If I were to crouch lower (trying to pick up speed, perhaps), my elbows do need to go to the outside of my knees...but it feels natural, not like I have to think about it or anything.

When you are on your bike (maybe on a trainer) have someone check to see (or use a mirror) if the angle between your upper arms and torso is about 45 degrees. If it's less, you are probably too upright for effecient pedaling and joint comfort given the geometry of your bike.

Disclaimer - I'm no fit expert...I'm just speaking from my own experience of being a shorty with a tough body to fit on a stock bike! ;)

[VeloVT]

When you are on your bike (maybe on a trainer) have someone check to see (or use a mirror) if the angle between your upper arms and torso is about 45 degrees. If it's less, you are probably too upright for effecient pedaling and joint comfort given the geometry of your bike.


FWIW -- at my recent fittings, I was told that they're looking for an arm/torso angle of about 90 degrees.

[GLC1968]

FWIW -- at my recent fittings, I was told that they're looking for an arm/torso angle of about 90 degrees.

Yes, yes, yes...sorry! I meant 90 degrees...not 45. Oops!

[Ana]

You all have great things to contribute! :) I might go back and have my stem put back a little longer... :)

I'm thinking maybe they shortened it TOO drastically :P My stock was an 85 and I think my LBS swapped it for a 60 mm.... Maybe something in between?

[emily_in_nc]

You all have great things to contribute! :) I might go back and have my stem put back a little longer... :)

I'm thinking maybe they shortened it TOO drastically :P My stock was an 85 and I think my LBS swapped it for a 60 mm.... Maybe something in between?

Yes, and you might find that the more you ride, the more comfortable you feel stretched out just a bit and that the original 85mm stem is just fine. I rode a 2001 Terry Isis with a stock 65 mm stem and over time found that I wanted it longer, even though it felt right when I first got my bike. My next bike had the same top tube length as the Terry, but I was able to use a 90mm (80 mm effective since it slanted slightly) stem and was very comfortable with more "cockpit room".

You might want to try a 70-75 mm stem now instead of the 60 (stems that short can also lead to squirrely front-end handling anyway), but hang onto the 85 mm just in case.

Good luck!
Emily

[tulip]

FWIW, I've been riding for 20+ years and I rarely ride in the drops. I'm happy on the hoods or on the tops, and I know I can get to the brake levels quickly.

Your thought about flexibility is a good one, though. If you work on your flexibility and core strength, I bet your rides will be more comfortable, drops or no drops.

[Ana]

So my compromised stem length of 70mm was a good choice :) I think most of my current fit issues will have to be ironed out by riding more and then discovering which fit issues persist.

I'm becoming more confident about my bike fit in the sense that the issues I'm having could have more to do with my conditioning rather than the geometry.

I've noticed a lot of weight on my hands and shoulders which may be relieved by conditioning :) We'll have to see :) Most of my riding has been deterred by the possibility of intense post-ride headaches, unfavorable weather and fatigue from my job :p

Thank you for all of your input! :D