Bike Fit Question - Leg Length Discrepancy

[melissam]

I read about the American Classic seatpost, which allows the head to be tipped slightly to either side to help correct leg-length inequalities without shimming shoe cleats. Since I have a ~1 inch leg length discrepancy that I've addressed in the past by shimming cleats, this approach is very interesting to me.

But then I got to thinking -- is it a good idea to address this issue by tilting your saddle laterally towards your short leg's side? While this may address the leg length discrepancy, wouldn't it cause issues in your low back? Or your neck & shoulders if you're riding off to the side?

Has anyone tried this approach?

Also, does anyone know how far you can tip the seatpost? 2mm? 5mm?

Finally, does anyone know if there's an issue with using an aluminum seatpost in a carbon frame?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

-- Melissa

[KnottedYet]

But then I got to thinking -- is it a good idea to address this issue by tilting your saddle laterally towards your short leg's side? While this may address the leg length discrepancy, wouldn't it cause issues in your low back? Or your neck & shoulders if you're riding off to the side?


I wouldn't suggest it to any of my patients. We spend beaucoup insurance $$ correcting the effects of LLD on someone's pelvis and low back.

I'm pretty amazed by this critter. I might have to write a *special* letter to these folks.

[melissam]

Thanks, Knot.

If you want a link to the product in question, here it is:
http://www.amclassic.com/seatposts.html

Maybe it's an OK solution if you only correct slight LLDs with this method? Like a mm or two? I dunno.

At first glance, I really liked the idea of correcting the LLD without having to shim my cleat, especially since I've switched to recessed cleats on my road bike. Without any correct, my low back can get heck-a-sore after a couple of hours in the saddle. And now that my training rides are getting into the 3-5 hour range, well, let's just say that my legs aren't necessarily the sorest part of my body after a ride.

Oh well, my next approach will be to use full foot orthotics in my cycling shoes. In effect I'm going to put the shim inside my cycling shoe and enjoy the convenience of recessed cleats and have a happy back to boot! At least that's my theory... :cool:

-- Melissa

[KnottedYet]

Specialized makes some very nice non-compressible forefoot lifts/shims that go inside the shoe. Unless you already have orthotics that you want made into full-foot, I'd be looking at the Specialized goodies.

(If you already have orthotics, your Orthotist will know the lift at your heel and should have no problem just *giving* you a slab of cork the same thickness for your forefoot in the bike shoe.)

[melissam]

Thanks again, Knot!

I have a pair of orthotics on order from the Orthotic Group. Their rep was in the office and we did a scan of my feet/gait while walking -- fascinating stuff! Turns out that my bad leg has a pretty normal pattern but my good leg does some pretty funky gymnastics to compensate for the bad leg.

Anyway, the orthotics should be here by the end of the month, and I'll give 'em a go. If that doesn't help enough, I can always compensate by tilting my saddle to the side with that seatpost. (Just kidding.) ;)

-- Melissa

[Triskeliongirl]

A 1" LLD is huge, and unlikely to be fixable by cleat shimming or orthotics. I only got resolution with a custom crank set with a dropped pedal (mine is 3 cm) from Tom Slocum at High Sierra Cycles. I highly recommend his approach. All other approaches gave me terrible hip and back pain, that tooks months for a PT to fix.

[KnottedYet]

Oh, yeah! I'd much rather see an effective crank length/dropped pedal adjustment than a side-tilting saddle.

A lot of times what we start with is correcting 1/2 the LLD. So for a 1 inch LLD we put in a 1/2 inch lift or lift-and-shim combo (cuz your bod has been compensating for that 1 inch your whole life and we don't want to push it all the way to the other side and cause a new problem!)

If your orthotics and cleat shims don't make the world a better place, I'd suggest seeing either Michael Sylvester, Chris Robinson, or someone they recommend. Someone like me, with more PT training than bike-stuff training, might not know about the nifty stuff you can do at the crank/pedal.

(interesting aside: did you know that Bill Nye the Science Guy designed a bike pedal lift for LLD?)

Edit: has anyone talked to you about putting lifts in the outsole of your shoes, as opposed to inside the shoe? This kind of trick works peachy-keen with regular shoes, is a lot cheaper, and you never have that "OMG, my orthotics are in my other shoes!" moment. You usually want to have experimented with lift sizes before you go make structural changes to the shoes.

[Mr. SR500]

John Howard briefly touches on LLD at the 6 minute mark of this You Tube video. Good Stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWOn3GJSMxM&feature=related

[melissam]

Thanks for all the great input!

Trisk,
If the whole shimming/orthotic thing doesn't work, I'll consider the custom crankset. My hip & back were reasonably happy with the shimmed Look cleat, so I may be able to get away with having half of my LLD corrected. I hope.

Knot,
I have corrected the outsoles of some of my shoes. I probably own one of the few pairs of Platform Tevas -- think '70's. OK, only the left one is a platform Teva, the right one is standard. I also have a platform Birkenstock. Yep, I'm just way too cool. :cool:

Mr. SR500,
The John Howard bike fit videos were interesting -- thanks for pointing me to the spot where he talked about LLDs. I may be wrong, but it seems that his point was that the LLD may be due to anatomical issues or muscular issues. He went on to say that 9 times out of 10, the LLD vanished after he made adjustments to patients on the table. He also said that correcting with shims exacerbated the problem as it extended it rather than levelling it.

Seeing the video has raised some additional questions:
1. What if the LLD is due to an anatomic issue that can't be corrected with adjustment? In my case, I had a spiral fracture of my left femur; each fracture point lost about 1/16" during healing, and if you do the math, well, my left leg is about an inch shorter than my right. Can this be corrected with adjustments? Or is this the type of problem that is best corrected with shims?

2. If you make soft tissue adjustments to correct LLD issues, is it a one-time deal, or does the area have to be adjusted periodically? Who's qualified to make these types of adjustments? PT? Chiropractor?

I'm not sure if I'm wording this well -- I'm not really expecting anyone to give me the answers, I'm just expressing my curiosity and am interested in hearing others' opinions or thoughts.

Thanks again to all who've weighed in on this.

-- Melissa

[KnottedYet]

If your LLD is structural (like from a fracture) soft tissue adjustments ain't gonna cut it. You're doing the right thing by shimming/lifting your shoes.

[aicabsolut]

It can help to tilt. It can also help to beef up one side of the saddle with extra padding. You may also just be able to split the difference and not feel too bad.

There's a real expert on this fit issue at cyclingnews.com on the fitness q&a page (Steve Hogg). There are gobs and gobs of questions and responses geared towards functional and measurable leg length discrepancies of various amounts with various ways to tackle the problem. You can get a lot of good information there.

[Mr. SR500]

I think John covers the basics on the videos, but we were with a week, so there were lots of details, bottom line is I think it's very difficult to say without a very good bike fitter helping you.

I've gone crazy with fitting, I've been professionally fit, John Howard gave me several good pointers and I've experimented myself. My legs vary some as I believe many peoples do. My chamois also use to slide to the side about 1/2". So I tried Lemond shims (I still use 1 for each shoe), but I've tried tup to about 6 on one leg. The shims I use now are for tilt. I've adjusted my cleats, fore and aft of each other, sliding the cleat of the longer femur forward, and the other back a bit. I've even enlarged my seatpost saddle binder so I could shift my saddle off center a hair.

Nothing seamed to really make a difference, so I've basically gone back to neutral and stopped trying to figure it out. I never did have pain, but just wanted the best fit. So other the one LeMond shim under each cleat, my bike setup is "normal". A I've not had problems with mileage or pain (longest ride is the RAIN ride in around 9 hours for 160 miles).

So I would go with what makes you comfortable, but if needed find a good fitter and work with them.

If I lived near San Diego, I would go to John, and I'm sure he would dial me in on the bike, give me a stretching routine especially developed for me, and make some corrections. But I live in Indiana, my fit is close, and I don't have any comfort issues, so I just focus more on getting faster and riding.

Best of Luck - it's a very interesting subject...

[Triskeliongirl]

I will say it one last time. Shims cannot be used to effectively correct a 1 inch LLD. Shims are great for correcting smaller LLDs, on the order of millimeters, as are some of the other techniques mentioned. The reason is that with a large shim, while your leg can be the correct distance from the pedal (and knee angle) at say the bottom of the pedal stroke, at the top of the pedal stroke, its like having a crank that is an inch too long and will raise your knee too high and cause a sheer force on your knee. I too worked with local fitters, got shims, got the idea to try different length crank arms, and contacted Lennard Zinn to obtain some. He immediately referred me to Tom Slocum of High Sierra Cycling. His dropped pedal system is ingenious, because it continuously adjusts throughout the pedal stroke so you are always the perfect distance from the crank arm. http://www.hscycle.com/Pages/cantsandwedges.html
He then offsets the chain rings to balance the leverage throughout the pedal stroke. He is an engineer that specializes in this, and has done work for several elite cyclists (olympian alexi grewel for example). I highly recommend him.

FYI, my 3 cm LLD was caused by a cycling accident. Like you I lost bone. In my case one sit bone is shorter than the other, and one of my hips is twisted relative to the other after my pelvic, hip and back fractures healed. The end result when I sit on a bicycle seat is that one leg hangs down 3 cm longer than the other. But, with Tom's system I feel biomechanically normal on the bike, better than I do walking even with shoes that are fit with lifts, etc. (which is also imporant though!). I'll never run again but I can cycle like a normal person. I also think my brooks saddle helps, since it accomodates the asymetry in my sit bones well (marks are deeper on one side than other).

[KnottedYet]

I was talking about her regular shoes. (the platform Tevas and Birkenstocks, etc.)

I completely agree with you about the crank adjustment. Those are groovy!

[Triskeliongirl]

Absolutely Knotted! I wear a lift in my shoes that is essential to walk comfortably. Its funny the shoe lift isn't as large as my bike correction, but I think that is cuz my LLD is different standing than when on the bike, due to the specific nature of my fractures. Also, it may be that my body had partially adjusted before I started wearing lifts, so correcting the full amount was too much. I buy these very inexpensive lifts: Actually, I started with these cuz they are adjustable
http://clearlyadjustable.com/
but once I realized I needed the full correction prefer these: http://gwheellift.com/plastic-heel-lifts.html
I use the 12 mm in the shoe of my short leg side, sticking them in with the tape you can order from the same company. Not all shoes can accomodate such a large lift, but I find they are great under the insole of a Nike Air Pegasus running shoe. I bring them with me when shoe shopping to be sure the shoe is deep enough. I find if I try a larger lift, I run into other problems, like either the shoe can't hold it, or I start to feel unbalanced, like one foot is walking on high heels and one on flats, perhaps another reason I settle for an incomplete correction.

Actually, if you are interested my on the bike correction is 2.2 cm. While the first bike fitter measured me at 3 cm (distance from top of femur to ground while standing), Tom's on the bike measurements came out to 2.2 cm (he raises plates under your feet that meet your feet while you are seated on your bike to get the on the bike measurement).

[KnottedYet]

Oooh, thanks for the links for the heel lifts! I've got a patient who could use those websites.

[Triskeliongirl]

Melisa, if you are hesitant about the custom crankset due to the cost, perhaps you could ask him about just starting with the dropped pedal, if it could be attached to your regular crankset. It wouldn't balance the leverage so wouldn't be as effecient (and mine also has elliptical rings which helps with my knee issues), but it seems to me that it would do a better job than shims. I tried shims, fore and aft cleat positioning, and shoe inserts (in various combinations). The biggest problem I had was persistant pain that wouldn't quit, to the point where I could barely walk.

After a lot of very painful PT to get my SI joint in order, I started on Tom's system, and have been pain free since the spring of 2005 when I got my first system. I have two now, which also serves to limit how many bikes I can have at any one time (which in some ways is a good thing...........). I have done multi day tours, centuries, etc. with no pain at all (from someone that was in tears when I tried to ride a century before). If cycling is important to you, with a 1 inch LLD, I think investing in Tom's system is worthwhile. I also paniced before I did it, even almost cancelled my trip to see him. The whole thing was quite expensive for me, as I had to fly to california to be fit, stay in a hotel, etc., on top of the cost of the sytem, but it was worth every penny as an investment in my long term health and well being (and no, Tom doesn't pay me a comission to say these things :)). In fact, I have now bought 3 systems since my first was on a bike that was stolen. Talk about a drag, on top of the cost, I couldn't ride for 2 months while he remade it, which is why I had him make me 2 at once (cheaper also to make 2 at once than 2 separately).

[Triskeliongirl]

Oooh, thanks for the links for the heel lifts! I've got a patient who could use those websites.

The first system is cool cuz it consists of a stacked system in 1 mm layers, if you aren't sure how much of a lift is needed, or want to work your way up, and they are quite long making for a very gradual transition that is very comfortable. But, I found they don't last as long, since the layers start to come apart over time. But, they do look good in sandals, etc. since they are not very visible. The company in the second link is where I buy both. They are very fast and good (think TE, priority mail package arrives within days of placing an order). Both are firm which is also very important, but comfortable. If shoes allow it, sometimes I also replace insole with a superfeet insole, and place lift under insole on short leg side, but not all shoes have room for both the superfeet and lift.

[Mr. SR500]

The first system is cool cuz it consists of a stacked system in 1 mm layers, if you aren't sure how much of a lift is needed, or want to work your way up, and they are quite long making for a very gradual transition that is very comfortable. But, I found they don't last as long, since the layers start to come apart over time. But, they do look good in sandals, etc. since they are not very visible. The company in the second link is where I buy both. They are very fast and good (think TE, priority mail package arrives within days of placing an order). Both are firm which is also very important, but comfortable. If shoes allow it, sometimes I also replace insole with a superfeet insole, and place lift under insole on short leg side, but not all shoes have room for both the superfeet and lift.

Any pics of your setup, sounds very interesting.

[Triskeliongirl]

Any pics of your setup, sounds very interesting.

I did take some pictures once, for my son to show his engineering buddies at MIT, but I can't find them now. I'll try to take some again when I have time. If you click on the link I posted you can see the dropped pedal. Whats harder to see in that pic, is the idea that the dropped part can rotate throughout the pedal stroke. Then my chain rings are offset and elliptical, but the ellipses are not like the old biopace rings, but in the direction of the modern ones favored by the CSC time trialists. The idea is they put you in effectively an easier gear at the top of the pedal stroke to get you through it faster with less stress on your knees.

[Triskeliongirl]

Ok, I just managed to blow up two pictures. They are taken from two diff. bikes but the crankset is identical. On the view marked right side, you see my normal length 165mm crank arm (fit to my short leg) and on the left side you see a 165mm crank arm to which Tom's dropped pedal is built in (fit to my long leg). Again, its hard to see how the dropped pedal can rotate throughout the pedal stroke, but imagine that it is attached by a flexible joint the permits rotation. He can build it with any pedal system, I happened to choose frogs. Likewise, he can use whatever chain rings you want, I specified a 50/34 set-up.

[KnottedYet]

Very elegant solution!

[Triskeliongirl]

If its not obvious, when I cycle, I do not put lifts in my shoes since the correction is built into the crank set. I only use the lifts for the regular shoes. They are pictured in the original links provided.

[melissam]

Trisk,

Thanks for posting the pics of your crankset! It looks like it could be a permanent solution for my LLD problems, at least on the bike. I have a couple of questions:

1. What benefits are there to getting a full custom crankset vs. only having a dropped pedal setup?

2. What was involved in getting "fit" for the custom crankset?

3. How long did it take to get the custom crankset?

4. How long did it take for you to get accustomed to the new set up on your bike? Were you sore for a few rides?

Thanks again for your help!

-- Melissa

[Triskeliongirl]

Hi Melissa:

1. I imagine the benefits of the full crankset vs the dropped pedal only is that the leverage is balanced throughout the pedal stroke, and that the elliptical rings improve movement throught the dead spot in the pedal stroke, decreasing the stress on your knees, but I suggest that you discuss this with Tom. I am sure that overall cycling performance is optimized with the entire set up, but perhaps the dropped pedal alone could make your body be a lot more comfortable. What you have to worry about is long term injury prevention and I just don't know if the dropped pedal alone is enough or not for this. Another point about the full system is you have the option of having the crank arms also offset relative to each other if your body requires this.

2. There was zero break in period. I went from not being able to ride at all due to the pain and SI joint damage, to riding 100 miles my first week. More specifically, the more I road my old setup, even with shimmed cleats, the more damge to my SI joint from the imbalance to the point where I was in constant pain even off the bike. So, my orthopedist had me stop riding while we first healed my SI joint. For this I needed intensive 3X per week physical therapy for about a month. During this period I flew out to visit with Tom. I'll tell more about that in a bit, but to get back to the issue of how it felt when I got my system, as I said it didn't hurt at all, but felt completely natural, as it should have since it was designed to work with my body. I remember riding about 100 miles my first week, and then just sliding into my normal pattern of daily 16 mile commutes, with 2 long club rides (30-60 miles each) on the weekend.

When my bike was stolen, again I couldn't ride during the 1-2 months it took him to build me a new system, but the day after it arrived I rode a century with no pain. In fact, until I got my shoe lifts, I found cycling more therapeutic than walking, as if it was necessary to restore balance to my body. So, when walking gave me pain I would ride to work it out.

3. The fitting. I flew to Tom's center in Mammoth Lakes, although I believe he also does fittings in other major cities in CA periodically. For me, it felt like a spiritual quest. I had arranged to rent a car at the airport, but there was a snow storm in progress. I was nervous about driving in the snow, since I hadn't done it for 10-15 years, but headed out determined to do it. It got scarier and scarier as the snow was blinding me. Finally, I was turned back as they wouldn't let anyone up the mountain without chains on their tires, so back I went and returned the car. Then I went to inquire about other forms of transportation, and managed to snag a ride with a ski shuttle. Of course the driver could not understand why I was bringing a bike instead of skis..............

Tom had me bring my bike, and he set it up on a computrainer. The first thing he did was measure my bike and body, and then while seated on my bike in the cycling position, he had these plates that came up from the bottom until they touched my feet. This let him measure what my on the bike LLD is. Then he had me do a series of pedaling exercises where he used a video camera to record details of my pedal stroke (i.e. measuring knee angles, heel drop, things like that). He also measured the power output of each leg.

Based on the data he collected, we discussed my options. He recommended the dropped pedal system as the best solution to my problem. The fitting fee alone if I recall was ~$200, and to take the next step and have him build me a custom system using all the data he collected was ~$1500-1700. That included the pedals, and first going through riding with a more adjustable system while he tweaked out the details. The adjustable system had the dropped pedal, but it was heavier than my final system, and let me adjust vary the angles of the crank arms rel. to each other as we explored 'timing.' I don't remember how long it took to arrive, but it was less than one month. I rode with this system ~1-2 months as he designed experiments for me to do. He would have me ride a certain way, and then ask me questions and have me make adjustments based on the answers (so we had frequent phone chats). Once my set up was tweaked, he started working on my final system, which took another 1-2 months to build, although I could keep riding the temporary system until it was finished.

However, my bike was stolen with the temporary system on there, so I had to go another month off the bike :(......... and of course I owed Tom for another system. At that point I had him build me two so I would never be without.

Yes, it was a lot of money, but without Tom and his system, I wouldn't be riding today, and cycling is simply too important to me to let that happen.

At Tom's urging I also worked on getting better shoe lifts, and today I am essentially pain free. Yeh, extreme cold still inflames my injuries a tad, but this has nothing to do with cycling, just an aging injured body.

p.s. I am a little uncomf. about posting prices, since I think it may depend on your individual situation. He made my systems back in 2005 so prices may have gone up, and the specifics matter, what kind of pedals, chain rings, etc. Also, remember that Tom talks to you on the phone a lot during the adjustment period, and I am sure some of that is what you are paying for too. Perhaps you could try it in steps. Go visit with him, get measured, and discuss your options. If the cost seems more than you can afford right now, perhaps you could pay for the fitting and dropped pedal, and ask whether he can build it so it will be compatble with both your current crank set up, and later be re-worked into a custom set up if that doesn't take care of the problem. I will be curious to see how it goes. I often wondered about this myself after the fact, although I have to say that I absolutely love my custom systems, and have no regrets whatsoever about the cost.

[melissam]

Hey Trisk,

Thanks for taking the time to explain so much about the setup. It is really, really intriguing, and it helps a lot to hear your first hand experience with it.

As you can probably see from my sig line, I'm planning to do the AIDS/Lifecycle ride in June this year. I'm on the fence about changing my crank/pedal setup before the ride. On the one hand, it would be great to have a balanced set up when you're doing 545 miles in a week. On the other hand, I hate to rock the boat and make huge change to my cycling setup before such a big ride. I also don't know how long it would take for Tom to "whip up" the system.

I know, I really need to talk to the man directly instead of hemming and hawing about it here.

Thanks for listening. And thanks a bunch for relaying your experiences with the setup.

-- Melissa

[Triskeliongirl]

I really think you should just ring up Tom. Tell him that Eileen in San Antonio recommended him.

I think you should do it sooner rather than later, cuz I would worry that with your current set up you will end up injured on your AIDs tour. For me, it was long rides (centuries) and tours (chiapis to guatemala) that really brought out the problem. I would imagine he could have your temporary setup to you in under a month, which would give you plenty of time to get used to it. But let him know your concerns and see what he says.



Hey Trisk,

Thanks for taking the time to explain so much about the setup. It is really, really intriguing, and it helps a lot to hear your first hand experience with it.

As you can probably see from my sig line, I'm planning to do the AIDS/Lifecycle ride in June this year. I'm on the fence about changing my crank/pedal setup before the ride. On the one hand, it would be great to have a balanced set up when you're doing 545 miles in a week. On the other hand, I hate to rock the boat and make huge change to my cycling setup before such a big ride. I also don't know how long it would take for Tom to "whip up" the system.

I know, I really need to talk to the man directly instead of hemming and hawing about it here.

Thanks for listening. And thanks a bunch for relaying your experiences with the setup.

-- Melissa

[Bananas]

I wouldn't suggest it to any of my patients. We spend beaucoup insurance $$ correcting the effects of LLD on someone's pelvis and low back.

I'm pretty amazed by this critter. I might have to write a *special* letter to these folks.

Hi, it's a long time ago that this was posted but I have to say that this seatpost is just what I've been looking for. I not only have LLD, almost everything on the left side of my body, including os coxa of the pelvis, is bigger than on the right side. Therefore, I need both pedal shims (or that wonderful crank if I can find it now) and the tilted saddle to put my pelvis in a level position on the center line and give my scoliotic back a rest. What is death to one person can be salvation to another! Thanks for this fabulous thread which has also given me the full-foot lift info! Cheers!

[melissam]

Bananas,

Welcome to TE! I'm glad this thread was helpful for you -- it's been a wealth of information for me.

You're right -- one man's meat can be another man's poison. Hope the seatpost helps with your issues. I'm sure a lot of folks would be very interested to see what you think of it after you buy it; I'm still curious to see how far it would tilt to each side.

-- Melissa

[oldgrl]

Hi-
I have a 1+ inch discrepancy in one leg-plus some scoliosis in my spine. I was using a shorter crank and orthotics on both my mtn and road bikes, but still had quite a lot of discomfort on road rides, plus power transfer is off a bit with the different lengths. I now have a WSD road bike, with no short crank, orthotic in my shoe and my LBS shimmed my shoe (alot), and tilted my saddle a bit. Had to play around a bit with set up-but now it works great-road all last season with no pain for the first time ever.

I'd advise finding a shop that will work with you so you can make small adjustments as needed-if your back or knees hurt, go back in.

good luck-

[melissam]

I know, what took me so long to call Tom Slocum at High Sierra Cycles? Perhaps some of you don't know this, but I am a Professional Procrastinator. :rolleyes:

Anyway...I called Tom this morning to see if his setup would help me. First of all, Tom's a really nice guy! I was a little leery of calling someone who helps world-class cyclists, since I'm a recreational cyclist. I shouldn't have been so leery. Secondly, Tom says 'Hi' to Eileen (Triskeliongirl.)

Here's what we plan to do:
1. He'll call me tomorrow and do a more in depth interview with me.
2. I'll have video taken of me riding on the trainer -- from the front, back, and both sides.
3. From the video, he'll analyze my pedaling, take some measurements, and send me an adjustable crankset.
4. I'll ride with the adjustable crankset for about 100 miles and give him feedback. We'll tweak the adjustable crank set as necessary.
5. After I think the adjustable crankset is "dialed in," I'll either send him another video or go to his shop so he can re-analyze.
6. He'll make a custom crankset, and I'll live happily ever after. Or at least I'll be more comfortable when biking long distances. ;)

-- Melissa

[Triskeliongirl]

Hey guys- I am bumping this up to benefit a new member that just sent me a PM on this topic. Also, I want to add that I found some great sandals recently that are really good for holding a large heal lift. They aren't the prettiest thing out there, but they really do the job and are *very comfortable* to walk in, and they aren't super ugly either.

http://www.footsmart.com/Product.aspx?ProductId=3829&cm_re=xsell-_-product-_-3

I bought one pair in black and one in bone leather. What I like is with the back the lift stays in place, whereas in backless shoes it is constantly moving and I have to keep resecuring it. They are great for work and long walks.

[badgercat]

Hope no one minds the bump... I'm a new forum member with a 9/16" LLD, and it's nice to see such a wealth of info out there, so I thought I'd chime in with my personal experience.

I think 9/16" is probably too much to be correcting just at the heel (gives me terrible posture, but does help with the hip pain), but I do use heel lifts most of the time. The difference is in my femurs--I just grew that way. I also have a mild-moderate S-curve scoliosis, so there might have been some causative effect of one on the other, who knows.

This isn't necessarily cycling related, but the last post about sandals makes me want to put in a good word (I'm not affiliated with the company at all, just a happy customer :p) about Chaco (http://www.chacousa.com/). They're a great company (socially and ecologically pretty responsible) that makes quality footwear. Chacos were pretty popular where I went to college (Madison, WI) and I was always so sad that I couldn't wear them because I couldn't envision how they'd work with a lift. Well, Chaco had thought of that already. :p They work with a cobbler in a neighboring town to their headquarters in Colorado to do custom lifts (between the footbed and sole) in a couple lines of their sandals. Since he works with Chaco, the lifts don't violate your warranty, and you can still send your sandals to Chaco for repairs, resoles, etc. (Basic info in their FAQ's here (http://chacousa.com/Portal.aspx?CN=043A48F0E3D4&MN=C15BB7FF45F0#5)).

I got a pair of ZX/1's about a year and a half ago, and am SO happy with them. Unfortunately, the lifted shoe is significantly heavier and less flexible than the regular one, but to me, it's a small price to pay for being able to wear sandals again. I had avoided sandals for years because of my LLD, and now it's a rare day to find me not wearing my Chacos--my tan lines are pretty impressive. :D I took a couple pictures of my sandals (yes, I love them THAT MUCH) and then my camera battery died... if anyone's interested in what they look like lifted, I can upload them after I find my charger. :cool:

[melissam]

Badgercat,

Thanks so much about the information about the Chaco's. I think they look mighty cool, and it's great to know that they work people to do heel lifts or orthotics. Did you get a set of Chaco's with lifts from the cobbler in the FAQ? If so, how long did it take between ordering them and receiving them?

Everyone interested in cycling & leg length discrepancies,

I received my "temporary" adjustable crankset from Tom Slocum and had it installed on my Merlin. So far I've only ridden ~60 miles on it, but so far, so good. A couple of comments:

1. The workmanship on the crankset is fantastic! When I mentioned that to Tom, he said that the finished product would be even better!

2. The crankset has the dropped pedal for my right leg, which is my longer leg. The pedal is permanently attached to the crank in a way that the Q-factor is equivalent to the pedal/crank on the uncorrected side.

3. It's hard to explain, but the crankset is adjustable in a way that makes it elliptical. The rings are round, but the middle is adjusted so that it's off center (like its owner. :p) Ahem. Anyway, this resulted in the bike shop having to raise the front derailleur a bit to accommodate it.

4. The adjustable crankset is a standard double -- 53/39. Since my Merlin has a 12-27 cassette, this means that I'm not bringing it on my climbing rides. The Trek has been on Mt. Hamilton and Mt. Diablo duty and will be coming up to Crater Lake this weekend. The Trek will most likely be participating in the Waves to Wine ride as well.

I'm starting to think that if I want to get the miles on the Merlin to test out the crank, I'm going to have to change to a mountain cassette/derailleur. What a slippery slope this upgrading business is. ;)

5. Based on the video I sent Tom, he recommended a couple of adjustments to my seat and my right cleat.

I really need to put more miles on the Merlin so I have something to report back to Tom. After that, we can get the adjustments dialed in and he can make the "real" custom crankset.

- Melissa

[KnottedYet]

Hope no one minds the bump... I'm a new forum member with a 9/16" LLD, and it's nice to see such a wealth of info out there, so I thought I'd chime in with my personal experience.

I think 9/16" is probably too much to be correcting just at the heel (gives me terrible posture, but does help with the hip pain), but I do use heel lifts most of the time. The difference is in my femurs--I just grew that way. I also have a mild-moderate S-curve scoliosis, so there might have been some causative effect of one on the other, who knows.

This isn't necessarily cycling related, but the last post about sandals makes me want to put in a good word (I'm not affiliated with the company at all, just a happy customer :p) about Chaco (http://www.chacousa.com/). They're a great company (socially and ecologically pretty responsible) that makes quality footwear. Chacos were pretty popular where I went to college (Madison, WI) and I was always so sad that I couldn't wear them because I couldn't envision how they'd work with a lift. Well, Chaco had thought of that already. :p They work with a cobbler in a neighboring town to their headquarters in Colorado to do custom lifts (between the footbed and sole) in a couple lines of their sandals. Since he works with Chaco, the lifts don't violate your warranty, and you can still send your sandals to Chaco for repairs, resoles, etc. (Basic info in their FAQ's here (http://chacousa.com/Portal.aspx?CN=043A48F0E3D4&MN=C15BB7FF45F0#5)).

I got a pair of ZX/1's about a year and a half ago, and am SO happy with them. Unfortunately, the lifted shoe is significantly heavier and less flexible than the regular one, but to me, it's a small price to pay for being able to wear sandals again. I had avoided sandals for years because of my LLD, and now it's a rare day to find me not wearing my Chacos--my tan lines are pretty impressive. :D I took a couple pictures of my sandals (yes, I love them THAT MUCH) and then my camera battery died... if anyone's interested in what they look like lifted, I can upload them after I find my charger. :cool:

I got my Chacos lifted by my neighborhood shoe repair guy, cuz having Chaco do it was turning into a huge hassle. He crafted an amazing work of art, tapered and scored and curved, beautifully flexible and rockered.

Chaco makes great sandals. I'm kind of sad that they fired the folks in Paonia and now have everything made in China. Now I treasure my collection of Chacos made in the US. I have some that are over 10 years old and going strong!

There's no reason to assume that now their quality will go down at all, it's just kind of frustrating to see the pictures of Chaco "employees" on the website and in the catalogs, and know those pics are just propaganda now and all that is gone.

ETA: Chaco's repair service is fabulous, they've been great to me! Anything you've done to your Chacos, they can handle it.

[badgercat]

Badgercat,

Thanks so much about the information about the Chaco's. I think they look mighty cool, and it's great to know that they work people to do heel lifts or orthotics. Did you get a set of Chaco's with lifts from the cobbler in the FAQ? If so, how long did it take between ordering them and receiving them?


Mine did come through David, the one listed in the FAQ. I don't remember exactly how long it took... I went back and forth with him over email and telephone a few times before deciding to go through with it. I want to say, though, that from the time I said "go," to the time I had them in hand, was about 10 days.


I got my Chacos lifted by my neighborhood shoe repair guy, cuz having Chaco do it was turning into a huge hassle. He crafted an amazing work of art, tapered and scored and curved, beautifully flexible and rockered.

Chaco makes great sandals. I'm kind of sad that they fired the folks in Paonia and now have everything made in China. Now I treasure my collection of Chacos made in the US. I have some that are over 10 years old and going strong!

There's no reason to assume that now their quality will go down at all, it's just kind of frustrating to see the pictures of Chaco "employees" on the website and in the catalogs, and know those pics are just propaganda now and all that is gone.

ETA: Chaco's repair service is fabulous, they've been great to me! Anything you've done to your Chacos, they can handle it.

I was so clueless about how common leg length discrepancies were, that I didn't realize you could have things like this done at local shops until my Chaco started to separate at the toe a little bit. I brought it in to be re-glued and the guy said he would have done the lift differently and better. ;) David's work isn't perfect... I definitely wouldn't have minded having a little more rocker at the toe, for example (these are things that I just didn't know to ask about back then...), but for my first pair of professionally lifted shoes, I've definitely gotten a lot of miles and happiness out of them.

KnottedYet, can you still get resoles and such done on 'third-party' lifted Chacos just the same? I've been thinking about investing in another pair in a different style so I have something to wear when mine are wet from being washed. :D

At some point in my life, when my finances (and my taste in shoes) are more stable, I definitely want to have permanent lifts put into more of my shoes... it's just such a better way to walk/stand around than lifting one heel with the same lifts I've been switching in and out of shoes since I was in high school.

I guess I didn't realize that most of Chaco's manufacturing was done abroad these days...mine say "assembled in Colorado" on the tags, but it never occurred to me that that's not the same as "made in Colorado." A similar thing happened with Timbuk2 (messenger bags that I love for bike commuting), though it seems like they're still pretty committed to high quality products and good working conditions, I like the idea of my stuff not having to be transported across the globe--carbon footprint and all that.

[KnottedYet]

They're not even assembled in Colorado any more. As of June this year, all manufacturing stages are done in China.

Chaco repair is still in Paonia, though.

One of the advantages of having your local repair shop do the lifts is they can see you walk and customize the lift to you personally. David does his work at a distance and to a standard model. My shoe dude, for example, could see that I get a lot of my power in my stride from my toe-off, so he knew I'd need a scored area at the metatarsal heads and a definite taper/rocker to the toe.

Chaco stands by David's work, I wouldn't knock it!

I haven't had Chaco do any resoling yet (my 10 year old Z1's need new soles). Most of my problems have been dog-meets-sandal related...:rolleyes: I'm thinking of having Chaco just send me some new soles and getting my same guy to replace them. He has a less sexy and much cheaper 1/2 length lift he says he could make (though he doesn't think I'd like it as much). I might have him do that to my oldest sandals.

[badgercat]

melissam, I should have mentioned before that if you are thinking about ordering a pair, make sure you try on some pairs in a store and walk around for a while before you do! My local outdoor store in Wisconsin carried them, but they also sell them at REI. They don't come in half-sizes, and I wear 8.5 normally and wound up with an 8 in Chacos, but my old roommate usually wore a 6.5 and wears a 7 in Chacos. It seems like their fit is as dependent on your arches as the overall length of your foot... I actually almost wound up with a 7 Wide, but decided I needed a little bit more bumper for my clumsy feet. :p

KnottedYet, It sounds like your local guy is a gem... was he a lucky find, or did you have to shop around before you found someone you really liked working with? May I ask, generally, how much you've paid for your custom lifts at a local shop? I'm just trying to get a ballpark for when I start looking for a local place out here to maybe get lifts in some running shoes, hiking boots, etc.

The ability to be re-soled is super-important to me... I wear down my shoes at the heel very quickly, so I think my Chacos will need to be resoled every couple of years with as much as I wear them. I remember asking David about it back when I was ordering and he said when lifted shoes got sent in for re-soles, Chaco would do the 'regular' shoe, and then forward them on to him to re-sole the lifted one. I might contact their service folks directly and ask if they'd handle shoes with a "non-David" lift. Your idea of just getting soles from Chaco and having your local guy do it is a good one as well.

I'm wondering if it would be reasonable to contact David and say "Hey, I've been pretty happy so far, but would be a lot happier if..." and see if there's anything he can do to make my shoe more flexible. On the one hand, it seems crazy to wait over a year to bring up issues like that, but on the other hand, I didn't really know any different back then! And he was very flexible back then and told me he stands behind all his work...

Anyway, as this thread was originally about LLDs as they relate to cycling... um... well... oops. :o

[KnottedYet]

I cycle in my Chacos!
(there, now it's cycling related again!)

The shoe repair shop I went to does a lot of work for the orthopedic surgeons and podiatrists in Seattle.... so he's not cheap, but it does seem to be worth it! My work of art lift was $50. A half-length lift would be about $20 or $30. He says he could also lift my Keen sandals and shoes, but they're ok with the adhesive lift-stacks I have in them now. I took in a bunch of shoes and he told me which ones would be good lifted and which ones would melt or fall apart.

Other repair shops would charge less, but I really like this guy. My LLD is pretty minimal (1/2 inch) so I get by with in-shoe heel lifts or just go without for the most part.