Serious Issue: Advice for Dealing with Alcoholics

[Mr. Bloom]

Met a nice guy at the ER tonight...he's a cyclist/runner that was the nurse caring for Mr. Silver Mom when we took her to the hospital.

After a fall in her assisted living apartment at 11PM, we weren't sure if she was having a stroke or not.

No stroke, but .22 on blood alcohol (at least 2 hrs after the fall...:eek:). Yep, that's pickled...legal limit in Indiana is .08...

Mom and Dad used to each consume 12-16 ounces of Scotch/day. We intervened and got that reduced to 6 ounces/day - administered in measured quantities from the nursing staff at their home (along with their medication:o) We further modified this in the last couple weeks by diluting the supply...after dad had several falls in one day (he's now in a rehab facility recovering from the falls...)

My resourceful parents have clearly found another source and are bypassing regulated quantities.

There's any one of a number of things that I can do:

find 'their source; and get a restraining order (this is easy)
limit their access to cash (I'm already trustee and control all their assets)
force place them in rehab (wouldn't that be fun?!?!?!?)
continue to reason unsuccessfully with them


Unfortunately, none of these issues address the primary requisite of recovery from addiction...they have to see it as a problem and want to quit...:(:( and they don't see it as a problem or want to quit...:(:(

I know from prior work with Teen Challenge that the addicted is usually OK with their plight...it's the family who has to deal with all the effects of the addiction...and that's where we are...dealing with it while they don't give a darn...

There's a lot of insightful and experienced folks here...So, how do you entice 80 year olds to want to stop drinking??? Simply telling them the impact it has on us is not working...

Sincerely,
The Sleepless Silvers

[rocknrollgirl]

Mr. Silver and Silver family,

I have spent my whole life dealing with people with addiction. Two of the four kids in my family were addicts. I say were because their addictions ultimately claimed their lives. Too early.

I am no expert by any means, not in the professional sense. I only have first hand expereince. Baptism by fire so to speak.

So this is my advice. They will not stop unless they want to or have hit their absolute rock bottom. Go behind their backs and do what you have to do to protect them and keep yourselves sane.

Tough advice, but you can't do it for them. I have been there and tried that...

Good luck and I will keep you in my thoughts.

Ruth

[Mr. Bloom]

Ruth, thanks.

In your opinion, how effective would/could it be if:

I force-place them in detox (dad was detoxed after a three month nursing home stay last year but then started drinking again upon discharge)
absolutely restrict access to cash for purchases


Will the removal of the physical craving post-detox alleviate the mental craving???

At the core is a problem...I'm the kid being the parent...and they are "old enough" to make their own decisions (unless I get them declared unfit)

[mtbdarby]

Mr. Silver - I too am not a professional but among the baptism by fire crowd.

You already know the bottom line - you can't make them stop drinking. Period. By restricting their amounts, diluting their alcohol, etc. all you're doing is enabling them. This, in my opinion, is doing more harm to you personally and your relationship with your parents.

What I would suggest is to bring this information to the attention of their doctors and seek professional guidance. If someone at the facility is providing alcohol that needs to be addressed for a multitude of reasons.

This may sound a bit cold, but it's not your responsibility to make them stop drinking, even as much as you may want too. That is a part of the sickness of alcoholism. If you haven't already done so, you may want to join Al-Anon. I credit them with saving my life and sanity as I got very caught up with feeling responsible for the fact that my ex was drinking and destroying our lives. It was eye opening the extent that I was responsibile for, but it in no way was for how and why he was drinking.

You are an intelligent and compassionate man. Take care of yourself and Silver family first and foremost. Let the professionals guide you with the decisions to be made reguarding your parents. Alcoholism is a family disease and it's effects are far reaching.

Best of luck to you!

[mimitabby]

if they're not driving, i say let them have their booze. they are adults
and they are only endangering themselves. Don't reason with them,
that's a waste of time. you could sure limit their alcohol, but you could
kill them by taking it completely away.

you need to go to Alanon. THEY will help you through this.

**************************************************
**************************************************

Raleighdon aka Mr Mimitabby used to be an alcoholism counselor. he wanted me to add this:

Alcohol kills. It also destroys lives. Not just for those that are drinking, but for those around them.
That said, mom and dad are in their 80's and unless their alcohol "ism" is causing major impact
on either their activities or causing them or others physical harm, at this point in their life, treatment
may have very limited benefit. As mimitabby said the true beneficiary would be the family around them
who can best be served by something like Alanon


there is, however, great hope if mom and dad can be helped to either significantly reduce or completely
quit drinking. when someone is in their 80's however, simply removing their alcohol will not change a lifetime
of alcoholic behavior.. what i found as an alcoholism treatment professional was that in order to help create meaningful difference in peoples' lives it was critical that we involve our older patients with others in their peer group which is very difficult because
their peer group is diminishing so rapidly.

Particularly problematic in a situation when both mom and dad are both abusing, if one is able to quit drinking and the other
not, an incredible amount of sabotage can and often does occur. The alcohol itself is not as much the problem but rather, a symptom of some much greater underlying problems more than likely having to do with things unresolved in their lives. Are you prepared, at this juncture in your parents' lives to not just take their alcohol away, but deal with all the other life issues that are behind that mask? If not, you are creating more problems for both them and yourself than you are helping to avoid.
If mom and dad quit drinking today, with medically supervised detox and treatment you may add a little bit of quality to their remaining years but unless you and they deal with the other problems, the only outcome is a lot of pain and misery for all concerned.

[Hub]

Dude,
I have no sage advice, I can only wish you luck & strength. I can only imagince how tough that is to deal with.

[KnottedYet]

Just a quick aside: Mr. Silver, does your mom have celiac? (or is that Silver's mom?) Alcohol hits celiacs a lot harder. You might want to ask the doc about that when you get the chance.

Dar - very good point about how if someone at the facility is providing alcohol to residents it needs to be addressed pronto.

RD - wise post.

[Flybye]

I feel for you both. Alcoholism runs deep in my side of the family.

This comes from a Social Worker perspective and also from experiences with Flybyebrother.

Have you tried an intervention? I don't want to go into a lengthy explanation if you know what one is, so I will just give the shorthand version:

The family has to meet without the grandparents first and decide what they want the outcome of the meeting to be and write up the specifics. For example - you both need to go to treatment or if you don't quit finding alcohol, we will limit your income. This is also the time that you decide what two or three things that you want to share with your parents when you meet with them and the family.

Basically, when they are sober, you and your wife and children, possibly their nurse, and anyone else in the family who is affected by their alcoholism agree to meet together and confront the issue which right now is really their drinking and how it affects their relationship with the family.


Then all of the members of the family meet with the grandparents.

Each person can share very specific times that grandma or grandpa's drinking let them down----
For the kids perhaps a missed sporting event, a holiday where they were so drunk that they made an a$$ out of themselves, etc.
For Mr. and Mrs. perhaps the legacy that they are leaving behind for the family - do they really want to be remembered as alcoholics? Do they want their children and grandchildren to see them die with dignity or from problems related to alcoholism?
Also - the tough situation that they put you both in by putting you in a situation where you are now playing the parent - you'd need to tell them specifically why you don't like this - don't hide emotions through any of this. Also, the decision that you have to limit their finances - share with them how you don't want to have that burden placed on you right now and how you don't want to have their final years with you spent with them being angry for limiting their income because of poor decisions that they are making.
Share with them that you are angry, frustrated, disappointed, ashamed, hurt, etc. Don't hide anything.
For the nurse - perhaps how their alcoholism puts him in a tough spot because he cares for them yet he can see what they do to themselves despite the good care that he gives.

There are key things involved in the intervention - you need a spokesman who shares with the grandparents the reason that everyone is gathered (love for them), that they aren't allowed to leave while the meeting is in session, and that they must hear each person speak without interrupting.

They then have an opportunity to respond to what you have said.

At the end of it all, you lay out specifics, which the family has to agreed to before the meeting -
treatment, money issues, etc.

They don't have to agree to anything right away, they need to have time to digest what everyone has said to them and form a bond with one another. They do need a specific time that they will give you an answer - for example the next day at a specific time - and again, the whole family should be there.

This is a highly emotional process that is emotionally exhausting. But, it works pretty well.

There are some great books on interventions available and I will see if I can link you to some here in a bit. Maybe amazon? Google drug and alcohol intervention?

Essentially, though, you are giving them a reason for wanting to quit - which is for all of you, not for them. It does become a reason for them later in the process.

We did an intervention with my brother and it worked. He was using cocaine and destroying his life. He got treatment and gradually started making changes in his life. It isn't always foolproof, however.

There may also be other older people at the senior citizen center in you area that have been though the process of making changes in their own lives and who can be a positive support for them.

The number one and number two things that affect the elderly are loneliness and depression. The senior center would help with at least the loneliness.

Hope that helps a bit. You can pm or email questions about this process to me and I will see if I can help out more.

Sorry that you are going through this.

Another thought - they really could live another 15 years. We never know. I wouldn't write it all off because of their age. Two years of meaningful sobriety is worth it, in my opinion.

Thoughts and Prayers,
Flybye

[newfsmith]

I quit drinking 29 years ago when a social worker told me that if I was found drunk again, I would lose my kids. I've had 1 glass of wine since that day. I can tell you that the craving never goes away, just slowly gets less intense. There are still days when I see booze billboards and feel like driving right into them. The craving is as real as hunger or thirst or feeling sleepy. You can't will it away, but you can do things to reduce it to a managable level, the equivalent of sucking on a hard candy or ice-cube, or sipping coffee. It is an ongoing life change that requires a lot of motivation, goals, and desire that has to come from within, as well as support from family. (By the way, I got sober before my Dad did.)

I would also urge you to go to Al-Anon to help you deal with the issues alcoholism in the family raise. I would also suggest that at your parent's age you have to accept that it is not a time of goal setting and changing. They have accepted that their goal is to drink themselves into the grave. You need to let go of the "saving them from themselves" attitude, and accept that you can only make sure that you are keeping them as safe as possible. Since they are in assisted living, you have gone about as far as you can with that. The only other thing you can do is to go the the manager of the facility and ask them to remind the employees that providing unauthorized alcohol to an alcoholic resident is unethical, a violation of their responsibility to help protect the resident; and if discovered probably grounds for dismissal.

Please go to Al-Anon for the support you need in understanding that loving your parents doesn't mean you are responsible for their failings. I'll be holding both of you, and your parents, in the light.

[Flybye]

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Families-Do-Successful-Intervention/dp/1562461168/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199029497&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Intervention-Help-Someone-Doesnt-Want/dp/0935908315/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1

Either of these books might work. The second one has reviews but I didn't see any on the first book.

[Running Mommy]

Ohh silver family! The crosses you have had to bear this year are many! I so hope that 2008 is a better year for you.
I didn't read through all the responses, but I think Mimi's post was spot on.
At their age change isnt very likely. :(
I'd say just do the best you can, try to find out WHO the supplier is. - I'd be ALL over that facility!!
I'm sure you are tho!
Sigh.... I feel for you. My dad is an alcoholic, and his drinking angers me so that it makes me shake!
Best of luck, and we are all praying for you (well the entire silver family)

denise :o

[makbike]

Mr Silver-

I know from family experience you can't make someone stop drinking and face their issues until they are willing to do so. They have to want it. Talk to their health care team for they may have some sound advise to give. You most certainly can and should express your concerns to your parents but again they have to want to stop drinking and until they make that decision all you can do is continue to support them and love them.

[RoadRaven]

Hi there Silver family

This post comes with a disclaimer as I am about to play "Devil's Advocate".

I have had alcoholics in my life and my "fifth son" was staying with us when his alcoholic mother drank herself to death in front of two of his brothers. I know the evils and the dangers and the pain this addiction causes.

Disclaimer: My post below:
- in no way wishes to endorse alcoholism as an acceptable life-style
- does not negate the hurt and anguish felt by the families of alcoholics
- does not try to endorse "feeding" a habit as a way of dealing with alcoholics


Mr Silver, I understand the desire to have your family healthy and with you as long as possible... but you say your parents are in their 80s... will getting them off alcohol seriously prolong their lives or enhance their quality of life? Their bodies and minds are used to this now and surely it is kinder to allow them to have a little of what they crave as they near the end of their lives, than to try to eliminate the addiction and have them craving (with all the attendant side-effects) something they cannot have and perhaps even resenting those around them who are depriving them.

By this, I do not mean allow them to become rolling drunk, but do comsider allowing them their drink. They are in their 80s - they have earned the right to choose how they see out the end of their days... they know the consequences of drinking... including disappointing and possibly estranging their families... including injuring themselves...

Here is an example (using nicoteine) of what I am trying to say - its the story of a dear friend of our family, a man to me whom had always seemed ancient and just stayed that way from the time my memories begin until my 20s when he died...

He had always been a heavy smoker, and was told in his 80s that he would die within 18months. His wife was desparate for him to give up, just to get a few months longer... so he tried. He got irritable and mean and very very sick. He went to the doctor, and the doctor told him to keep smoking. The doctor said the withdrawal would kill him much quicker than smoking would at this point in his life. The doctor said "you enjoy smoking, so take back your quality of life and enjoy the last year or so with your wife". So our friend took up smoking again, and was the kind gentle man he had always been and travelled with his wife and lasted nearly two years.

I don't know how helpful or unhelpful this post is to you... and if we were talking about younger people then I would absolutely endorse the family and health professionals helping the "habit-kicking".

But these people are in their 80s and this is their choice and severe or total restrictions will change their quality of life and that should be considered also.

I don't have the answer and am only providing a different persepctive from those in this thread.
The woman I first mention in this post had no right to kill herself the way she did but ultimately that was her choice as an addict. But she was not yet 40. I can only reiterate that despite the previous couple of paragraphs, I do understand the evils of alcohol and the anger and pain and grieving that accompanies watching a person close to you drink to excess.

I wish you, Silver family, the easiest path through this thorny patch of your lives. Choices we make for our parents seem to be harder in some ways, than the ones we make for our children.
Arohanui
Raven

[rocknrollgirl]

Mr. Silver,
You have gotten a lot of good caring advice. I have been thinking about you all day. I hope you find the answer that is best for your family.

[carpaltunnel]

Silvers,
I read your letter, then skipped to the bottom without reading more,to post this, so probably you've heard it before. You're not the only ones to deal with ancient addicts. (If this were not so serious I would try to make a joke out of a new branch of AA for Ancient Addicts).
My darling husband's mother passed away last year at 96, still addicted to the tranquilizers that no one (that is her new doctor, after we understood that the old one was just writing perscriptions to get her out of his office) could get her unhooked from.
Last week the nurse in my doctor's office (she and I shared the same doc) told me that her mother in law was an alcoholic in her 80's. I guess the medical care is so good these days that they can last a long time, too.

My advice to her and to you is to learn about AlAnon, so you can protect yourself and them without wearing yourself out. My prayers are with you.

[nancielle]

It's never easy dealing with addiction in the family. Working with addicts I get to witness the pain and frustration of loved ones trying to understand why someone will not "just stop" something that is detrimental to their health/wellbeing. Having alcoholics in my family brings it home all the more. Some things stood out from the posts:

Not all addicted individuals are "ok" with their plight. Some feel downright awful about it but feel helpless/hopeless or downright scared to change. But you're right, they have to want to make the changes necessary.

The suggestion of attending Al-Anon meetings is a good one. It can be helpful in dealing with the emotions of coping with alcoholic family members. You could force them into rehab but at what emotional/relationship cost to them and among the family? There is no guarantee that they wouldn't go back to their old drinking patterns once discharged.

Are their physicians aware of their drinking habits? At 80 their metabolisms are not going to handle alcohol consumption as it did in the past. Alcohol with remain in their systems longer. What types of medications are they on normally? Medication function is also impacted by alcohol use. A previous poster asked about celiac. Good question. Also, is either one diabetic? As has been pointed out in other posts, just stopping drinking for them (any alcoholic actually) can be dangerous. Seizures are a problem for alcoholics (actively drinking and detoxing which is why alcohol detox needs to be medically supervised.)

I'd also be curious as to how long the AL facility would be on board with "administering" alcohol. They may look at her recent fall & BAL as a liability for them (I know of someone who was asked to remove a loved one from an AL facility for similar reasons.)

Good luck with this.

[Trek420]

I guess the medical care is so good these days that they can last a long time, too.

My understanding from a friend who's been in recovery a long time is ultimately many alchoholics lives end from malnutrition. It's empty calories after all and the addict drinks, feels full, doesn't eat. On the street some die of starvation though to look at them that is not the case but internally, starving.

Silvers, I'm sorry this is happening, I know others here have said this more articulately than me: Alanon is an amazing fellowship of friends and family. Sometimes that's all you can do, change yourself and maybe the addict will follow.

Meanwhile I'd find the source at the facility. I'd hate to be him or her when you do.

[Mr. Bloom]

Wonderful Feedback. Thanks! Here are some answers and the rest of the story...


Yes, Mom is celiac and this exacerabates the problem...
The doctors are involved and agree that "a couple of drinks a day" is manageable
the 'source' is not an employee of the facility, and someone currently unknown to us (although I got a couple of suspects out of bed at 3AM this morning:eek:)


While understanding that no one was endorsing drinking, I understand that to restrict their access is harsh and possibly impossible. The issue:

their care is currently costing about $8,000/mo. If they're kicked out of the facility, there are limited affordable options with the next level being private care costing about $20,000/mo. It can be done, but not forever.
alternatively, they could drink themselves into a nursing home (which medicare would ironically cover) but this would be very bleak...and I guess I'm compelled to protect them from that outcome (even if that's what it takes for them to hit bottom...)


In our visit today:

Mom was VERY sore and seemed to have regret over what happened (despite limited recollection)
She's "promising" that if we'll just let her have her 6 oz....she'll live up to her "promise" THIS TIME...
I've reminded her that her word has little meaning when she continues to lie and then break her promises
I've told her that we'll only consider allowing continued access IF she accepts our requirement that she get counseling starting this week


So, I'm accepting that we will not mandate a change of attitude and that I can't restrict an adults will...but I'm hoping that a counselor will expand her selfish perspective and help her see the implications of her choices.

[bikerchic]

but I did get as far as this one and I could not have said it better:


Mr. Silver - I too am not a professional but among the baptism by fire crowd.

You already know the bottom line - you can't make them stop drinking. Period. By restricting their amounts, diluting their alcohol, etc. all you're doing is enabling them. This, in my opinion, is doing more harm to you personally and your relationship with your parents.

What I would suggest is to bring this information to the attention of their doctors and seek professional guidance. If someone at the facility is providing alcohol that needs to be addressed for a multitude of reasons.

This may sound a bit cold, but it's not your responsibility to make them stop drinking, even as much as you may want too. That is a part of the sickness of alcoholism. If you haven't already done so, you may want to join Al-Anon. I credit them with saving my life and sanity as I got very caught up with feeling responsible for the fact that my ex was drinking and destroying our lives. It was eye opening the extent that I was responsibile for, but it in no way was for how and why he was drinking.

You are an intelligent and compassionate man. Take care of yourself and Silver family first and foremost. Let the professionals guide you with the decisions to be made reguarding your parents. Alcoholism is a family disease and it's effects are far reaching.

Best of luck to you!
__________________
Dar
_____________________________________________
“Handle every stressful situation like a dog - If you can't eat it or hump it, piss on it and walk away...."

Word from the wise, never care more about another person's life than they do. It will consume you and take away from the life you are intended to enjoy and the joy you are intended to give to those you are responsible for ie; wife, children and pets.

[Mr. Bloom]

While I shared the cost of their care...I don't want to convey a "poor me" attitude. My parents led a thrifty life and saved well, have GREAT insurance, and an adequate fixed income. I invest their money well...but I can't squeeze out $20,000/month;);)

I'm a BIG FAN of Long Term Care Insurance. It doesn't pay for everything, but it really takes the edge off...

I'm also a big fan of being active in retirement. I compare Silver's parents to mine...same age, but totally different physical shape. All because of activity.

My parents drink out of habit and BOREDOM...They sit in a chair, watch TV all day, get depressed about everything on TV that is wrong with the world...and drink.

I think that medicare or social security should provide a touring bicycle and helmet to everyone on their retirement day! Now, that would be government largesse well spent!

[silver]

I wanted to elaborate on an issue that has been brought up.

Yes, they are elderly and very unlikely to change. So the attitude is what's the harm of letting them have their alcohol. Basically I would have that attitude and that is the attitude that the doctor has had....

but the context is so much more complicated than this. MIL has celiac and FIL has diabetes. FIL has dementia. The dementia is a result of longterm diabetes and alcohol abuse. The AL facility that they were in was OK with the regulated amount of alcohol each day. 6 ounces to each (served twice a day in three ounces).

But as FIL's dementia and overall condition decreases, his overall health is decreasing and he was not tolerating the alcohol. His blood sugar's were impossible to regulate. The supervisor of the nursing staff told us that they could not continue to provide nursing care to him (monitoring his blood sugar and insulin) as long as he was drinking. During this time, He's been in and out of the ER, ICU and now in the skilled nursing care. He's off alcohol and detoxed and doing quite well actually. But still wants his drink when he gets back to the AL. The Nursing staff told us they would NOT take him back if he was drinking any alcohol.

MIL was doing OK with the 6 ounces/day. AL was fine with that. But MIL was getting another source and would binge on that intermitantly. she did this last night. She fell and hurt herself. I fully expect that the ALF will contact us on Monday and tell us that they cannot continue to accept this liability.

This is the third time that I've taken her to the ER in this similar state. Over the last 2 years. Each time thinking that she could have had a stroke. The first time, she was drunk with a blood alcohol of .38. The second time it was actually a stroke.

If they actually took care of themselves.....I'd say go ahead, drink yourselves to death. But it's not that way. They need daily assistance for regular daily activities, like bathing and dressing. No facility is going to accept the liabiltiy of their drunken accidents. We cannot get nursing care to cover them when they are drunk.

Yes, I've enabled them. I've bought the alcohol. I established the limited drinking schedule. It worked when they adherred to that schedule. but they got more from another source and binge. (edit: on rereading this, I sound sarcastic and defensive, but honestly I'm not, this is just how it is and I'm at my wit's end, I'm really listening to what you all have to say, it helps)

so what do I do? Stop buying it? (I do not believe that MIL's detox would be that bad)

Oh, yet another thing, MIL's liver is failing. She does OK with a limited amount of alcohol, but when she drinks more that the 6 ounces her liver enzymes increase.

sooooooo complicated.

but thank you all so much for discussing this with us. it so helps to see all the perspectives and viewpoints and ideas. Please keep up the info. I'm still digesting it.

[Tuckervill]

What a tough, tough situation. My mother is an alcoholic. One of my brothers is one-year sober. I hope none of this is in my future.

I also hope you can find a way through it with minimal damage to your relationships and your conscience.

Karen

[bikerchic]

opinion, like a second opinion.

But when I read this:


so what do I do? Stop buying it? (I do not believe that MIL's detox would be that bad)

Oh, yet another thing, MIL's liver is failing. She does OK with a limited amount of alcohol, but when she drinks more that the 6 ounces her liver enzymes increase.

sooooooo complicated.

If you are the supplier, quit! It's really not that complicated and sure they will be upset for a while but maybe that's the time you need to really distance yourself from the situation quit supplying them with it and go to Al-anon for support.

Unless I misunderstand the situation if they are in a care facility let the trained people deal with them and get them through detox that is what they are for is to care for them right?

It's really not that complicated, remove yourself from the equation and they won't have the alcohol and you won't have to hear them complain. Sounds simple to me.

Good luck and keep life simple it's really not that hard.

[Irulan]

lots of good advice, I'll ditto some and add some more.

Al-Anon. This is the sister program to AA, but it is for friends, families and loved ones of alcoholics. It won't give you the magic bullet to make them quit, but you can gain tools to live a better life regardless of what they are doing.

2. You didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you certainly can't control it.

3. Al-anon.

4. buying booze for an alcoholic is being an enabler. If you quit doing it, and they really want it, they will find another way to get it.


but they got more from another source and binge.
It doesn't matter what you do, they will do what they want/need to do, and it is out of your control. The sad thing is, if they choose to drink themselves to death, yes, its horrible to watch and let it happen, but sometimes that's the way these things go.

When my dad broke his leg (drunk fall) and couldn't 'drive, he used to walk two miles each way to the 7-11 in a walking cast to buy his booze. The point is, if a drunk wants to drink, they will figure out how to do it.


http://www.al-anonfamilygroups.org/

[Irulan]

Wonderful Feedback. Thanks! Here are some answers and the rest of the story...


Yes, Mom is celiac and this exacerabates the problem...
The doctors are involved and agree that "a couple of drinks a day" is manageable
the 'source' is not an employee of the facility, and someone currently unknown to us (although I got a couple of suspects out of bed at 3AM this morning:eek:)


While understanding that no one was endorsing drinking, I understand that to restrict their access is harsh and possibly impossible. The issue:

their care is currently costing about $8,000/mo. If they're kicked out of the facility, there are limited affordable options with the next level being private care costing about $20,000/mo. It can be done, but not forever.
alternatively, they could drink themselves into a nursing home (which medicare would ironically cover) but this would be very bleak...and I guess I'm compelled to protect them from that outcome (even if that's what it takes for them to hit bottom...)


In our visit today:

Mom was VERY sore and seemed to have regret over what happened (despite limited recollection)
She's "promising" that if we'll just let her have her 6 oz....she'll live up to her "promise" THIS TIME...
I've reminded her that her word has little meaning when she continues to lie and then break her promises
I've told her that we'll only consider allowing continued access IF she accepts our requirement that she get counseling starting this week


So, I'm accepting that we will not mandate a change of attitude and that I can't restrict an adults will...but I'm hoping that a counselor will expand her selfish perspective and help her see the implications of her choices.

this is sad to read because it is so typical of the family dynamic of the FAMILY DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM. Promises, deals, negotiations.... ultimately it's all BS unless the alcoholic them self decides that they are ready to quit.

Re - intervention. This is not a do it yourself project that you set up with the help of some self help books. Bring in a professional trained to manage these kinds of situations.

[Zen]

this is sad to read because it is so typical of the family dynamic of the FAMILY DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM. Promises, deals, negotiations.... ultimately it's all BS unless the alcoholic them self decides that they are ready to quit.


I thought the same thing. alcoholics will say whatever they have to to make you leave them alone so they can start drinking again. Addicts lie.

[RoadRaven]

Wow... with all those extra details like medical complications - and health costs/insurance issues which are so different to how things work in this country...

Thank you for both understanding where my post was coming from - I have been bothered it might be interpreted the wrong way...

Well... I am pleased for your parents, Mr Silver, that they have you as a son who is being so measured and caring in your response to treating/dealing with this whole uncomfortable situation.

My thoughts are with you and Silver as you work your way through this situation and completely admire you both for wanting to keep them in a comfortable place - rather than a grotty retirement home.

I hope the culprit who is sneaking the extra booze in is thwarted and your parents are able to continue living out their days in a place where you all feel better about it.

Sadly here in NZ, we have developed a culture of popping our elders into a home as soon as they become a "nuisance" and then conveniently forget them.

[salsabike]

opinion, like a second opinion.

But when I read this:



If you are the supplier, quit! It's really not that complicated and sure they will be upset for a while but maybe that's the time you need to really distance yourself from the situation quit supplying them with it and go to Al-anon for support.

Unless I misunderstand the situation if they are in a care facility let the trained people deal with them and get them through detox that is what they are for is to care for them right?

It's really not that complicated, remove yourself from the equation and they won't have the alcohol and you won't have to hear them complain. Sounds simple to me.

Good luck and keep life simple it's really not that hard.

Assisted living is not a hospital, just a place where they provide some help with activities of daily living like dressing, bathing, or taking meds. Assisted living cannot provide the kind of medical care needed for safe detox, and it sounds like they would have significant medical withdrawal symptoms if all alcohol was suddenly removed. I think it is not that simple.

Silver, I don't think you sound sarcastic or defensive, just understandably tired and frustrated and sad and worried. It may be that they will not be able to stay in assisted living because of this issue. All I would say is, consult a physician if you expect they will be experiencing complete withdrawal of alcohol since it may be medically dangerous.

[KSH]

Interesting issue you have there.

I have a feeling I'm going to be there in the next 10-15 years if my Dad lives that long.

My Dad was an alcoholic and then he sobered up... when I was around 8/10 years old (I didn't live with him when he was a drunk). He stayed sober until I was 32 years old. I am now 35.

It was then that he retired and decided to sell the house (he and my stepmom got divorced)... and buy an RV to live. He also decided to start drinking again. Yep. A home on wheels AND drinking. Luckily he parks it at an RV park 90% of the year.

I have had to come to terms with the fact that he's going to kill himself with booze. There's no way a 63 year old man can drink from sun up to sun down... and live to be a ripe old age.

If he does live to be as old as you parents... I'm not sure what I'll do when he's falling down and ending up in the hospital because he's drunk and hurt himself.

Unfortunately, because they are causing phsyical harm to themselves that requires medical attention... you are going to have to get tough about them not drinking. If they were like my Dad... maintaining themselves and being drunk... I'd say leave them alone... but you can't do that.

Good luck and try to make their remaining days happy ones... as best you can... by finding a balance for everyone involved.

[KSH]

I wanted to elaborate on an issue that has been brought up.

Yes, they are elderly and very unlikely to change. So the attitude is what's the harm of letting them have their alcohol. Basically I would have that attitude and that is the attitude that the doctor has had....

but the context is so much more complicated than this. MIL has celiac and FIL has diabetes. FIL has dementia. The dementia is a result of longterm diabetes and alcohol abuse. The AL facility that they were in was OK with the regulated amount of alcohol each day. 6 ounces to each (served twice a day in three ounces).

But as FIL's dementia and overall condition decreases, his overall health is decreasing and he was not tolerating the alcohol. His blood sugar's were impossible to regulate. The supervisor of the nursing staff told us that they could not continue to provide nursing care to him (monitoring his blood sugar and insulin) as long as he was drinking. During this time, He's been in and out of the ER, ICU and now in the skilled nursing care. He's off alcohol and detoxed and doing quite well actually. But still wants his drink when he gets back to the AL. The Nursing staff told us they would NOT take him back if he was drinking any alcohol.

MIL was doing OK with the 6 ounces/day. AL was fine with that. But MIL was getting another source and would binge on that intermitantly. she did this last night. She fell and hurt herself. I fully expect that the ALF will contact us on Monday and tell us that they cannot continue to accept this liability.

This is the third time that I've taken her to the ER in this similar state. Over the last 2 years. Each time thinking that she could have had a stroke. The first time, she was drunk with a blood alcohol of .38. The second time it was actually a stroke.

If they actually took care of themselves.....I'd say go ahead, drink yourselves to death. But it's not that way. They need daily assistance for regular daily activities, like bathing and dressing. No facility is going to accept the liabiltiy of their drunken accidents. We cannot get nursing care to cover them when they are drunk.

Yes, I've enabled them. I've bought the alcohol. I established the limited drinking schedule. It worked when they adherred to that schedule. but they got more from another source and binge. (edit: on rereading this, I sound sarcastic and defensive, but honestly I'm not, this is just how it is and I'm at my wit's end, I'm really listening to what you all have to say, it helps)

so what do I do? Stop buying it? (I do not believe that MIL's detox would be that bad)

Oh, yet another thing, MIL's liver is failing. She does OK with a limited amount of alcohol, but when she drinks more that the 6 ounces her liver enzymes increase.

sooooooo complicated.

but thank you all so much for discussing this with us. it so helps to see all the perspectives and viewpoints and ideas. Please keep up the info. I'm still digesting it.

Hey, you aren't being defensive.

It sounds like you and Mr. are doing your best to find a balance... and you found one... and it got unbalanced due to an inside supplier of alcohol.

My Grandmother was in a nice assisted living center... until she got so bad off phyiscally, they had to send her to a nursing home. Yes, it was horrible. She went there to die. And I know the two of you do not want to see them end up in a nursing home because they can't stop drinking.

The key here is that they can't take care of themselves. They are like teenagers... and as the care takers... you have to make sure they can live in a nice place and they can get taken care of. You also have to make sure they don't get kicked out.

Do what you have to do to keep them in assisted living. Hopefully they can give up the booze so they can continue living there.

[three]

Silver Family:

There is nothing harder than letting go when we want so badly to hang on and make everything better. The more we care, the harder it is to let go. I don't know how open you are to all the words of wisdom in these replies, but I hope that time will help you to see that you've already done all you can do.

People make their own decisions and it can be exceptionally hard to stand by when those decisions are self-destructive. But, that's what unconditional love and acceptance is. It is not a condoning of their behavior, or enabling. Rather, it is a recognition that you are the master of your own life and they are the masters of theirs. If you speak with an addiction specialist (which I hope you do, at some point - or take everyone's advice and check out an Al-Anon group) - you would see that no one and no single act can force sobriety. One must enter into sobriety, or any healthy lifestyle, on their own accord.

Try to think about other addictions: cigarettes or food, for example. If you take away someone's smokes, does it fix the problem? If you force someone to eat certain foods, does it deal with the real issue of their binging/overeating? No. One needs to be dedicated to stop smoking - or eating healthy, it can't be forced upon them. Or, think about something easier - more tangible - like deciding to make exercise a regular part of one's life. You can't force cycling or fitness onto anyone, right? Everyone has to take responsibility for their own lives and decide each day, each week, to get out there and put the time into staying healthy. With addiction, it is no different. The responsibility to change falls on the shoulders of the addict.

It is clear that your family is filled with love and wants nothing more than to care for your parents and see them well. But, if your parents aren't joining you in your efforts - you're setting yourself up for a great deal of pain...pain that no one in this forum wants to see you go through.

You can't control them. You can't convince them. And though they are aging, you are not responsible for their decisions. If they want to drink themselves to injury, that's their choice. If they want to make choices that result in being moved to a nursing home, it's their choices that got them there. All you can do is make sure they are cared for and safe - something you are doing a beautiful job of already. They will decide on a life of sobriety when they want it, if ever. Until then, all you can do is love them and take care of yourselves. There is nothing easy about the position you're in, but it is manageable - with the right resources.

I'm glad you came here for support and advice. I hope you continue to do so for as long as you need it. As for the advice, I have always believed we always know the answer to our own questions - deep inside. Advice is what we ask for when we know the answer, but don't want to admit it.

In time, the truth of how much (or how little) control you have in this will become more evident. As it does, and you grow to feel increasingly helpless - I hope you will put your energy into getting professional support for your family. You can't control your parents addiction, but you can control how you and your family handles it emotionally.

I wish you the best of luck with everything.

[salsabike]

So beautifully said, Spinswebs.

[RoadRaven]

Perfect crafted response, SW
Perfect

Silver family... kia kaha, kia manawanui

(Be strong, be of good heart - have faith in youselves)

[Mr. Bloom]

Thanks to all!

Every post here has provided thoughtful insight and perspective.

I'm considerbly more encouraged at 3AM today than at 3AM yesterday...(why am I not in bed????)

I think that I'm resolved that I can't let them drink themselves into a nursing home. The badgering from them over restricted drinking is better than the begging we'd receive to get them out of such a bleak place as a nursing home. Don't misunderstand - nursing homes do their best at caring, but it is simply too bleak to imagine as an acceptable solution.

To All with Kids: Please resolve right now that you won't become the children in your kids' life...

[Triskeliongirl]

I think that I'm resolved that I can't let them drink themselves into a nursing home. The badgering from them over restricted drinking is better than the begging we'd receive to get them out of such a bleak place as a nursing home. ...

I think this is a wise move. To keep the relationships more intact, can you let the docs or medical staff be the bad guys. Tell them that because of what the alcohol is doing to their health, their doctors are refusing to continue care for them in this facility if they continue to drink. Then tell them you support the doctors on this because the alternatives (nursing home care) are both unacceptable and would also not allow alcohol. Explain that medical facilities cannot care for patients with liver disease and diabetes that consume alcohol, its as simple as that. Its also the truth.

[maryellen]

i have a 94 year old father in a similar situation. not easy.

side note: In response to your aside about nursing homes and Medicare, typically Medicare does NOT pay for long term nursing home care. Usually the elder must "spend down" their assets until they qualify for Medicaid.

[mimitabby]

more from Mr Raleighdon who apologizes for butting in once again on a women's cycling forum:

alcoholism is one of the most destructive FAMILY diseases in our society. Unfortunately it isn't just the alcoholic that suffers from the disease and it is not only the alcoholic that lives in a state of denial. While family members don't cause the disease (i.e., it ain't their fault), neither do the alcoholics, themselves. None of us can control this disease, and yet we spend countless hours, days weeks, months and years of our lives attempting to do just that. "If I could just get mom or dad to cut down..." "If we could just....." Well, I can't, you can't and we can't. And the more we try, the sicker we become and at the same time, so does the alcoholic.

The bottom of every hole is that point at which someone throws down their shovel and stops digging. And it isn't just the alcoholic who needs to come to a point of surrender into a recovery process. For family members affected by this disease, the impact of years of the disease is a denial system that is every bit as well ingrained as that of the alcoholic, and must be broken through if there is any hope for recovery. The alcoholic may or may not get sober. That is a choice that they, and only they, can make. A great deal of assistance can be rendered in a lot of ways to help them get there, but unfortunately, a family member who is just as sick as them is not the person to render that assistance with love, respect, non-judmental decision making and dignity. If mom and/or dad are faced with assisted living, there are innumerable community services available that can give a lot of help, but as long as the adult children of alcholics think they can control mom and dad, the problem will continue to become worse not betterr.

I've often wondered why a man would spend so much of his energy surrounding himself with women in a site like Team Estrogen, and Mimitabby shares posts with me sometimes, seeking my thoughts on various issues. It astounds me that a purported well educated and balanced man would come to a women's bicycling group about his mom and dad's alcoholism. It just seems to me that this is about control and attention getting, both which are well defined and clearly identifiable symptoms of a highly evolved and advanced state of denial about ones' own problem. Don't bother to focus on the REAL PROBLEM, which is your own life, your own fears, your own self-doubt, your own low self esteem, your own losses, but deflect all of that outward, attempt to get others to endorse your bull$&#%) and fish for answers you can pick apart, re-work until they seem to agree with your own desires which are clouded with diseased thinking and find that one person out of twenty who will say, "Oh you poor thing. How hard it must be for you." and lock in on that sympathy.

Alcoholics and adult children of alcoholics neither deserve nor need pity. They already have enough of that themselves. All that self-pity is keeping them sick. What they need is a hand up, and good, professional help, support from their own community and to be treated with dignity and respect. Sometimes, that dignity and respect may mean making some tough choices, like saying goodbye. Respecting someone enough to quit endorsing their behavior. Respecting someone enough to allow them to live with the consequences of the life of bad decisions they have made. Respecting someone enough to say to them, I'm very sorry you feel that way, but I disagree and can't accept the guilt, shame and blame that you are trying to put on me."

Ánd as Forrest Gump might add, That's all I have to say about that.

[Crankin]

OK, I'm going to chime in here, despite the fact that I have no experience with alcoholism. In fact, I am only going to address the question Mr. Mimi posed: Why would a man ask advice on this topic from the women on TE?

I think (and I may be presumptive here), Mr. Silver asked because we are a community and he feels like he belongs to this community. We might disagree as to the answers to this problem, which is a tough one. But, I think that Mr. S is just reaching out for advice. It's not weird and I could see my husband doing the same thing. Not all men are the same.

Robyn

[Triskeliongirl]

I am gonna chime in with Robyn here. No disrespect meant to Mimi, but what I think Raleighdon doesn't get is that our community is unique, in part cuz we are mostly women, but that gender is not a requirement for participation. I think he is making a lot of assumptions about Mr. Silver's participation here that frankly aren't true. There are many kinds of people out there. I belong to bike journal to track my miles, and even though it is a mixed gender forum (so I officially 'belong'), I only tend to read the posts on the days that TE is down. Now, based on what I read last week I could read all kinds of things into that silly banter between Raleighdon and Pansypalmetto, but I won't cuz I know that banter suits a particular personality, just as our banter here suits a different personality. But I would never be so presumptuous as to read the kinds of things that Raleighdon is reading into Mr. Silver's posts.

With that being said, I do believe that Raleighdon's suggestion to get professional counseling on this one is a good one. I think Mr. Silver posted here cuz he couldn't sleep and he (and silver) needed a place to vent which is entirely appropriate within our community.

[Running Mommy]

WOW! I just read a part of one of the posts above and I have to say.... Can we all take a step back and count to ten??

I have nothing to add, but my support for the Silver family. Over the last few months I feel like I've gotten to know them, and I really feel for what they are going through right now.

Being a part of both a triathlon and this online forum for the last few years, I have encountered many view points. I've always tried to respect everyones right as an individual to believe what they want, even if I don't.
And over the years I have come across a few who I have thought that I would really like to meet someday. The silver family is on that list.
So again, nothing to add but my support and prayers.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hmmm....would people criticize Silver the same way if it had been she who initiated this thread instead of Mr. Silver? I suspect not, but it's something to think about.

[jusdooit]

Jumping in here.
Silvers, I understand not wanting your parents to spend their last days in a nursing home. I had that struggle as well, for different reasons. I finally placed my mother because caring for her was killing me. Nursing facilities are all different, take time to find one that suits them best. A good facility will not allow your parents to sit around all day watching TV and bemoaning what's wrong with the world. My mother was very active, participating in nearly all the activities available to her, in spite of declining health. And............this may sound cold, it is a natural consequence to choosing to continue on the path of alcoholism. I am a recovering alcoholic.........I would have said or done anything while drinking to get others off my back. Mr. your mother's empty promises may be nothing more, but it's possible she wants to stop, but can't. I would get her help, if she takes it great, if not she has made the choices. The only option I see to protecting them (and you)from themselves if they won't stop drinking is long term care. So what if it takes all their money, so be it. Remember it was their choice to get to this point.
I might add I stopped drinking through AA. No one intervened, no treatment, just sick and tired of the life I was living.

[Geonz]

And back to the original topic... here are some thoughts I have no investment in so toss 'em if you like. Could part of this be as simple as after two drinks go down the rest taste better and better... not because of deep-rooted psychological issues but physiology? I say this because an elderly biking buddy said he has given up drinking because after one, he wants two and three and four... and this has been a physiological change. (I don't know if there are other issues like meds involve or not.)
She seems to recognize that there *is* a problem with drinking too much... would she grasp that she needs to figure out a way to deal with the apparent fact that once she starts, she doesn't stop? FInd creative ways to keep the quantity down (like "you gotta drink two glasses of seltzer water for every drink")?
Again, not any kind of expert here but tossing in the "options if other ones aren't working" ideas.

It's not clear who the "control" and "attention seeking" comments are talkin' about... but mayhbe that's how it was meant.

[Zen]

Actually, the initial post involves more issues than a parents alcoholism. I don't think Raleighdon was criticizing, simply stating facts, one of which is that this is a parent-child issue as well as an addiction issue.
It may be difficult but I do think it's something to consider. Tough Love.

[Crankin]

Good point, Lisa. Most likely they wouldn't. Everyone has a different personality and that usually comes through in what's written here. I am not involved in any other on line forum; I do bike journal just to track my miles, but I am seriously considering not rejoining because I am not sure how much I will be able to ride next year and I get obsessive about it anyways. But back to the point you made; our society expects women to seek advice, but not men. My husband stayed home with our first son when he was born in 1982, for the first eight months. He was totally comfortable with that role, even though it was very unusual back then. He never felt weird taking the kids to daycare or hanging around and talking to the other moms there. I am sure some might have thought he had other motives or was trying to meet some need because of a "problem," but it just wasn't the case.
It is ah, usually pretty obvious when someone on the forum is having real psychological issues and I don't think Mr. Silver is one of them. Sure, the situation does require help from professionals, but he is just asking for advice here.

[salsabike]

Actually, the initial post involves more issues than a parents alcoholism. I don't think Raleighdon was criticizing, simply stating facts, one of which is that this is a parent-child issue as well as an addiction issue.
It may be difficult but I do think it's something to consider. Tough Love.

Yes. I think that was RD's intent.

[spokewench]

I think Mr. Silver is here because he likes to be here and he is courteous and inciteful and I appreciate his candor. I think it also shows that he cares for Silver and is interested in what she does and is part of. More men could learn from that.

Now, back to the topic. Silvers, I greatly appreciate your problems with the parents. Mine are alcoholics also. My brother in law (who never says anything bad about anyone) says they are "CRAZY", and of course, he is right. They act crazy cause they are addicts and have lived their lives around alcohol instead of dedicating their time to something good and productive.

My parents are also in the 80s (dad is 89). They still live by themselves in Tucson now, but who knows how much longer this will be able to last. They drink every late-afternoon/night and get snockered almost every night. It is a very sad thing. It not only affects their brains, it affects their moods, and their health. Mom has always been on depression medication and still drinks?:eek: Dad had one kidney removed from cancer about 10 years ago, kept drinking, has severe prostate problems, and his other kidney is compromised and works only minimally.:eek:

My sister and I have talked to them about not drinking so much, but it is useless. Especially after Dad's kidney was removed. We cannot control them. We do the best to have a loving relationship with them; but sometimes it is very tough. I understand your struggle - you want to do something, but it is very difficult and almost impossible to control the situation. You just have to realize that you have done the best you can and go forward with your own lives and make good role models for your own children and those around you. IT IS SO DANG FRUSTRATING - but sometimes these are the cards you are dealt!

Hang in there - it probably doesn't get better, but I wish you well in dealing with these issues.

spoke

[Juliette]

I've often wondered why a man would spend so much of his energy surrounding himself with women in a site like Team Estrogen, and Mimitabby shares posts with me sometimes, seeking my thoughts on various issues. It astounds me that a purported well educated and balanced man would come to a women's bicycling group about his mom and dad's alcoholism.[/QUOTE]

This is kind of offensive on a couple of different levels:

1) Maybe Mr. Silver just needs a place to unload. This has historically been a non-critical, non-judgemental group. That is often hard to come by these days. OK, a few divas and kooks have come by every now and then, but on the whole, people here are respectful and courteous. Making judgements about a single participant based on a few comments seems rude and inappropriate.

2)Mercy, a man asking women for advice. What is this world coming to!!! Like women have no value to add to discussion with a man because of their gender. Sorry, I'm not buying into that. It seems like there are some really wise people participating on this board and from some of the replies to this thread, others have gone down this road also.

I don't have any experience with alchoholism, but we all have problems to work through and my thoughts are with the Silvers as they deal with this issue.

[shootingstar]

To my knowledge, alcoholism doesn't exist in our family...just hope the nephews and nieces don't fall down a hole here.

I really do mean this genuinely.....this may sound wierd but some of my family members can only hold 1 glass of wine or less, before getting red. And for me, it's only 1/2 glass of wine. I understand for some Asians, they may have a particular enzyme that does not breakdown alcohol "efficiently". I guess this is a blessing in disguise.


I do remember as a child, my mother expressing concern that my father not fall into any drinking when his boss was a happy beer, Scotch and whiskey drinker. His boss died about 8 yrs. ago from a failed liver.

And if something did go wrong....I am certain they would listen to my sister, who is a physician....they have been taking her medical advice for past decade so far.

I feel for the Silvers and their problems with elders having alcolholism.

[Zen]

A plethora of resources (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=asB&q=elderly+alcoholics&btnG=Search)

[Trek420]

I've known many addicts who are amazing people; world renowned artists, activists and community leaders, people who raise millions for charity, or just good people hard working parents and workers and such ... addicts all and effecting their families and others.

Most of these people are now in recovery and while that's hard to do they are happier for it.

I've read somewhere that each addict adversely the life of up to 5 people .

[Mr. Bloom]

Raleighdon:
1) Thank you for your insightful thoughts in three of your paragraphs. As I understand from Mimi's earlier post, you have direct professional experience that gives credibility to your input (as to the matter of dealing with alcoholics;)). When I ask someone what they think, it's my hope that they'll tell me what they think, not what I want them to say. Your feedback is thought provoking and that's useful.

2) As to your somewhat personal attack on me:

You're welcome to criticize me, my motives, my shortcomings, etc.
But in all honesty, I'd encourage you to 'earn qualification' to do so by interacting with me directly first. Say the word, and I'll PM you my phone # and email address;) - Then you can analyze me thoroughly :) My life's an open book and is anything but perfect...but you can rest assured that "pity" is not a phrase in my vocabulary. I count my blessings everyday.
Don't criticize me because we see things differently. I may not hang out in macho places like you, but rest assured I'm very happy with who I am:cool:


In business, I dive in head first and confront challenges that don't have evident answers. But, personal matters are not so easy. In reality, there is no single 'right' response. That's where a forum like this is helpful...and this happens to be a very experienced, diverse, and intelligent group where, in 24 hours, I received feedback and encouragement from a culturally and geographically diverse group of people to challenge and guide me.

So, why do I dive in here before diving into the "community services available"? Well, unlike you, we live in a small city...as a matter of fact, I was the board president of a remarkable organization that is THE BEST "community service available" in this area...but it's not suited for this this situation...so I know the local options are limited.

Thanks for your thoughts. My offer of my #/email address is sincere - not for confrontation, but if you have insight into a problem that I don't see, then I'm all ears :D

Have a Happy New Year!

[mimitabby]

Hmmm....would people criticize Silver the same way if it had been she who initiated this thread instead of Mr. Silver? I suspect not, but it's something to think about.

Lisa, the response would have been the same except for the specific paragraph referring to men on women's boards. Raleighdon posted (after I mentioned the Alcohol situation) out of a genuine response to wanting to help with the pain and suffering that we have both seen so many times that is caused by the Disease of Alcoholism. My response here is late because we were out in the sticks at a New Year's Eve party, where ironically, one of raleighdon's best riding buddies had a drunken meltdown in the middle of the best restaurant in the town we were in, terrifying and embarrassing all of us. We drove home from there sad
about yet another FAMILY whose life was being destroyed by the disease.

[Tuckervill]

On any other board I would have awakened on this new day to hundreds of incendiary posts devolving into chaos in a thread like this. So thankful it didn't happen. What a great place this has always been!

Karen

[silver]

On any other board I would have awakened on this new day to hundreds of incendiary posts devolving into chaos in a thread like this. So thankful it didn't happen. What a great place this has always been!

Karen

Agreed! Which is just one more reason that I like it here.

[KnottedYet]

On any other board I would have awakened on this new day to hundreds of incendiary posts devolving into chaos in a thread like this. So thankful it didn't happen. What a great place this has always been!

Karen

Hear, hear!

[Trek420]

A toast with your beverage of choice to TE. :) Long live TE. :cool:

[silver]

It's been so helpful to be able to come here and get feedback. sometimes you do know the answers, but it helps to write out the issues and discuss them with others. The folks here on the this forum have always come through with helpful info and thoughtful, intelligent and insightful responses.

Having an internet community to come to is such helpful and useful medium. We live in a small town with limited resources. We don't know anyone who is dealing with these issues. We are familiar with the resources here in town. And we know that these resources don't meet our specific needs. We have sought out professional help. We have consulted their doctors. They have done nothing to help.

With other issues (such as MIL's celiac diagnosis) we've learned that doctors don't always have the best answers. If we had relied on the medical resources here in town, MIL would have died from Celiac. But through networking on the internet and going out of town for resources (found on the internet) we were able to get a diagnosis and treatment plan.

We have made an appointment with a counselor. The first one that we could schedule was on Jan 16. We don't know this counselor. We don't know what angle she will take. will she even be helpful?

We've been through all sorts of things in the past. We encouraged them to give up driving after MIL sideswiped a car and left the scene causing $12,000 to the other car. We encouraged them to move to an assisted living facility. We've refused to purchase their liquor. They found another source to buy it for them. They lent these folks money and then these folks began stealing from them. About this some time, FIL got sick went into the hospital and then the nursing home. This was summer '06. The assisted living facility told us that they would not allow FIL back unless their alcohol use was controlled.

well, we've bumbled along til now. Sure we've not done all the "right" things. We're just doing the best we can with what we've got. Getting insight and talking through the issues with you all is something that we are grateful for. thank you.

[Trek420]

We live in a small town with limited resources. We don't know anyone who is dealing with these issues. We are familiar with the resources here in town. And we know that these resources don't meet our specific needs. We have sought out professional help. We have consulted their doctors. They have done nothing to help.

AA and the "sister" programs such as Alanon are highly anonymous, actually that's the basis and one of the foundations of the program.

It's hard to explain but it's not a secret society or "closeted" in any way. But it's not as if your Doctor can just say "Here, I'm referring you to my Alanon specialist, go to the Alanon Building"

I can almost gaurantee you know many or a few who are in some recovery process but because anonymity is the founding principle of this thang you could be talking to your best friend in the checkout line and it's possible that s/he would not say "come with me to the meeting I go to, it's in the next town."

It's likely s/he might say "I've heard Alanon would be helpful"

It's not as if those in recovery wear t-shirts or often even talk about it outside of meetings.

Then one day you go .... and there's your Dentist or next door neighbor and and I hope you may find the support that you deserve.

You can look up AA in almost any phone book, there are websites with contacts. And if you do not see an Alanon group listed just call or e-mail AA they will refer you to a local Alanon meeting nearest to you.

It's not like there is a building or meeting hall (well, in urban areas sometimes there are) but often the meeting's in a church, locally here I see a sign in the window of a Mexican Eatery :cool: they have meetings there.

Hey, might as well have good food after. :p

It's not a matter of it being a shameful thing, there's nothing to be ashamed of but it's a principle and structure and why the program works for so many and for so long is that they don't advertise.

Even if it was not nearby, or you had to go to the next town over or only when you travel .... but I'm still willing to bet there's a local meeting.

I think there's even a 12 step cycling club somewhere. :cool:

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I second Trek's excellent Alanon post. I would heartily recommend that the Silvers both go to some alanon meetings and learn more about how to deal with alcoholic family members- even better, Alanon will help one look inside and figure out how to deal with one's OWN feelings of guilt, anger, frustration, etc, when dealing with alcoholics. The tools and insights you discover there will be invaluable not only during this difficult time, but even long after your parents are both gone- when the guilt, resentment, anger, and sadness continue to linger inside and negatively affect your lives in many small unexpected ways for years to come.
Their principles and ideas are pretty healthy and beneficial, and can come in handy for various other challenging/puzzling situations life comes up with.

I too think this caring and civil thread is further proof of TE members' special thoughtfulness, intelligence, and humanity.

A good start to the new year! :)

[silver]

Oh, I think that you may have gotten the wrong idea about what I was saying about our small town.

(after rereading this....please understand that the following is a stream of consciousness rambling, wonderings of the impaired mind of silver as she sorts through things. I didn't initiate this exercise, but I'm finding that it has been very helpful to really examine many of the underlying issues)

I/We don't have any problems with anyone knowing what's going on, or our reputations or anything like that. Yes, I know quite a few recovering alcoholics. We know the resources. We know where they meet. I've been to the meetings. I'm a recovering addict. I have a good picture of how these programs can help, where to get resources. But what I know and what I've seen, does not address this situation. Going to an Al-anon meeting is not going to help me navigate the decisions that I need to make today, tonight, tomorrow to meet their needs....the ins and outs of nursing home care, end of life issues.

If we were to find that our daughter was abusing, I know exactly where the resources are to get help. but this is different. I think that the elderly just usually get shuffled through the system. Maybe our society doesn't place enough importance on them to really deal with it, or maybe any efforts are just useless so everyone has already given up.

You know, just exactly what will "tough love" look like? If Mr. hadn't given me second chances, I wouldn't be here, pedaling my heart out. Does it mean that I don't go visit the IL's, no contact. Don't help them in any way? Or does it mean that I don't bring them any liquor? Or am I supposed to take them some so that detox doesn't send them into some other breakdown of their already overtaxed systems.

As others have said, the tactics and strategies that are used to help addicts and addict's families are just not going to be as applicable in the elderly. The IL's do not want to change. They do not want to face their life issues. We can't force them to. I know this deep down, and obviously find myself trying again and again. It's a family dynamic. It's helpful for you all to remind me not to let myself get personally pulled in.

All that said, I do believe...and I've not discussed this with Mr.
....is that he could be helped by trying to attend some Al-anon meetings in Bloomington. So Trek, you do bring up a good point that there may be a better resource in a nearby town. They may have more resources there that could meet his need. I do think that it might help him deal with the guilt that he feels over the need to use the nursing home at all. I think that since I see the day to day details that I have a better idea of reality about dealing with the situation.

We tried the counseling thing once before and it was a huge bust. We're going to try again. The first available appt is jan 16. The only thing that we could do sooner is an in patient program and MIL is not willing to do that.

Thank you for "listening" to my rambling.

Now, that 12-step cycling program.....Where does the ride meet?

[Wahine]

I come from a family of addicts of various types.

The one best piece of advice I can give is that the only person's behaviour you can change is your own. That doesn't just mean what you physically do or say but also how you think and emotionally react to the things that happen to you and around you. This makes me fall into the tough love category I guess. I believe that by changing myself I can affect a shift in the family dynamic that encourages those around me to change for the better.

Good luck to you and your family.

[LBTC]

Silvers, all I have to offer are butterflies. Loads of them - helping you see clearly, aiding you in healing, giving you comfort in yourselves, your decisions, and allowing compassion, love and the best results from your decisions and heartache.

Hugs,
~T~

[Flybye]

Raleighdon:
1) Thank you for your insightful thoughts in three of your paragraphs. As I understand from Mimi's earlier post, you have direct professional experience that gives credibility to your input (as to the matter of dealing with alcoholics;)). When I ask someone what they think, it's my hope that they'll tell me what they think, not what I want them to say. Your feedback is thought provoking and that's useful.

2) As to your somewhat personal attack on me:

You're welcome to criticize me, my motives, my shortcomings, etc.
But in all honesty, I'd encourage you to 'earn qualification' to do so by interacting with me directly first. Say the word, and I'll PM you my phone # and email address;) - Then you can analyze me thoroughly :) My life's an open book and is anything but perfect...but you can rest assured that "pity" is not a phrase in my vocabulary. I count my blessings everyday.
Don't criticize me because we see things differently. I may not hang out in macho places like you, but rest assured I'm very happy with who I am:cool:


In business, I dive in head first and confront challenges that don't have evident answers. But, personal matters are not so easy. In reality, there is no single 'right' response. That's where a forum like this is helpful...and this happens to be a very experienced, diverse, and intelligent group where, in 24 hours, I received feedback and encouragement from a culturally and geographically diverse group of people to challenge and guide me.

So, why do I dive in here before diving into the "community services available"? Well, unlike you, we live in a small city...as a matter of fact, I was the board president of a remarkable organization that is THE BEST "community service available" in this area...but it's not suited for this this situation...so I know the local options are limited.

Thanks for your thoughts. My offer of my #/email address is sincere - not for confrontation, but if you have insight into a problem that I don't see, then I'm all ears :D

Have a Happy New Year!


I/We don't have any problems with anyone knowing what's going on, or our reputations or anything like that. Yes, I know quite a few recovering alcoholics. We know the resources. We know where they meet. I've been to the meetings. I'm a recovering addict. I have a good picture of how these programs can help, where to get resources. But what I know and what I've seen, does not address this situation. Going to an Al-anon meeting is not going to help me navigate the decisions that I need to make today, tonight, tomorrow to meet their needs....the ins and outs of nursing home care, end of life issues.


I truly respect both of you - the more I read your posts, the more I respect you. It takes a great deal of self control and self reflection to handle everything that you are going through in the manner with which you are.

As a side note, I completely agree with #2 on Mr. Silver's list. Nothing was ever gained by criticism - it is a fruitless venting of emotion and frustration UNLESS it is done in love with good intentions, which I don't believe that it was.

[Wahine]

As a side note, I completely agree with #2 on Mr. Silver's list. Nothing was ever gained by criticism - it is a fruitless venting of emotion and frustration UNLESS it is done in love with good intentions, which I don't believe that it was.

Having met Mr. Mimitabby in person, I believe that his post was given with nothing but good intentions. His tone may have been different/more forceful than what we are used to here on TE. This is the same as a person raising their voice to get their point across. To someone like me who was raised in a quiet family, raising one's voice comes across as confrontational (until I learned otherwise). In the household of many of my friends with different backgrounds, it's a totally normal expression of intense feeling about the issue and can still be very constructive.

And I'd have to argue that criticism can be very useful. If it's given with ideas of how to address the issue, it can be thought provoking and become the catalyst for change. Criticism that is nothing but negative feedback without suggestions for how to correct a situation is useless. My impression is that Mr. MT provided the former not the latter.

Mr. MT took time to compose 2 posts on a forum that he does not visit because he has specific expertise in the area. Perhaps it could have been done in a better way. But I would like to see us leave that issue to Mr. S and Mr. MT to deal with independently, as suggested by Mr. S.

Again Silvers, good luck, we're thinking about you.

[Brandi]

I sure hope your mom keeps her word! Sorry I am late to this post (you know why:o).
Both my parents were drinkers and I said I would not go through it again! I tried to protect them. It was in vain on my part. I put so much of my energy into people who wanted to do what they wanted to do. So at one point I just threw in the towel. They were ruining my life at a young age and I couldn't do it any more. They are still around (not together anymore) and they both still drink. Not as much as when they were together but still do. I have a lot of space between us now and I don't keep in touch with them like I used to. I hate to say this but my life is better without them so close to me.
That is just my story...not giving advice or anything like that. Just a story for you to think about. The best of luck with them though. I hope they don't drag you down to far with them. I had to let go or I was going too be destroyed. But that is me.

[indigoiis]

Ultimately, it's up to the person to end their addiction & habit. Take it from me - trying to do it for them is a losing battle.

You may want to check out and read thoroughly through:

www.rational.org

(non denominational, free, good advice.)

Indigoiis (former lush.)

[Mr. Bloom]

To All: I'm encouraged by knowledge that many face this problem. Honestly, I'm not aware of anyone in our personal or professional circles that face this (which may surprise many of you...).

Al-anon never even occurred to me until I read about it in this post. Silver and I have agreed that at least I should pursue it.

Team Estrogen continues to be a valuable resource for a plethora of issues:)


Having met Mr. Mimitabby in person, I believe that his post was given with nothing but good intentions.


I'll take your word for that Wahine;) The first post offered incredible insight and hope.

BUT, the second post was personal and even the constructive parts seemed to come out of a contrary interpretation to what I previously said.

I don't have a problem with the tone; my issue is with what was said (at the risk of being accused of being in denial after considerable self-reflection;);))...but everyone's entitled to their opinions.

It seems that there are many who have viewed this thread and shared that they have in the past or are currently facing similar challenges. Notwithstanding a little controversy, I hope that this has been a bit edifying to the group...it has been useful to me. Thanks.:)

:D:DNOW, let's ride (despite snow here last night!):D:D

[Irulan]

Al- anon is a program that doesn't advertise : attraction, not promotion. That being said, it is nice to see how many folks out there have gained some sort of life improvement ( or, serenity if you want to call it that) from the program.

[Mr. Bloom]

Al- anon is a program that doesn't advertise : attraction, not promotion. That being said, it is nice to see how many folks out there have gained some sort of life improvement ( or, serenity if you want to call it that) from the program.

Well, best laid plans of mice and men so often go awry

There are no al-anon groups in the southern half of Indiana, but there appear to be electronic meetings, so I'm waiting on information.

[Tuckervill]

Al- anon is a program that doesn't advertise : attraction, not promotion. That being said, it is nice to see how many folks out there have gained some sort of life improvement ( or, serenity if you want to call it that) from the program.

Every week in our newspaper are advertisements in the classified ads for Al-Anon, Narcotics Anonymous, and AA. I'd encourage anyone looking for these services to check the classified ads.

Karen

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

There are no al-anon groups in the southern half of Indiana, but there appear to be electronic meetings, so I'm waiting on information.

How can that be!? :eek: Seems like they have local meetings in just about every small town or large city I've ever read a newspaper from. It seems so hard to believe that an entire half of a state would have nothing. :confused::confused:

[Trek420]

How can that be!? :eek: :confused::confused:

Pretty much my reaction. Wherever there are 2 or more people, folding chairs and a coffee pot there's a meeting :cool: ;):rolleyes: log off and go find it

[LBTC]

How can that be!? :eek:

I was thinking just that! Williams Lake, in the middle of nowhere, with a population of less than 15,000 people, had Al-Anon meetings all the time.....I don't think that was just a reflection of a high percentage of alcoholics living there... hmmmmm

Keep trying, Mr. You'll find them,

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[KnottedYet]

Here's a list of about 150 cities with al-anon meetings in Indiana. Albion thru Winimac, alphabetical. Is one of these in Southern Indiana?
http://www.indiana-al-anon.org/Meetings_By_City.htm

Each listing gives the city, address, day/time, group name, and name of the building they meet in.

(there are about 10-15 listings per page, and about 15 pages, so it may take some scrolling to find the one you want. Many cities and towns have more than one meeting, so they take up a lot of space on the pages)

[KnottedYet]

This one is a map specific to Southern Indiana and Kentucky. http://www.kyal-anon.org/

You click on the find-a-meeting link, then click the county you want. It might be easier to navigate than the huge alphabetical listing for Indiana.

[Mr. Bloom]

Wow! I was clearly having trouble navigating the al-anon site this morning! I promise, I was sober!

This is hopeful since one of these meetings in lunchtime across the street from my office. How 'about that

[KnottedYet]

Perfect!

[Mr. Bloom]

OK, I'd like to let this rest...but...

I'm not looking for sympathy or affirmation, but there's a serious gut check moment occurring.

Mom was making progress and taking responsibility for her drinking. She seemed prepared to quit if it made the difference between my dad being able to come home or not.

Then, dad died.

As we were cleaning up some stuff this weekend, we found a hidden bottle of scotch. Following the advice of this group and counselors, we said nothing (contrary to our prior responses...). Mom's a big girl...

Then, tonight I got a call from the facility staff saying Mom's drunk, dangerously so, and I need to deal with it.

Gut Check: I said "no", I can't intervene...if she's dangerous, send her to the ER and we'll pick her up later. But she's got to take responsibility for her actions.

I told them I wasn't trying to pass the buck, but if her drinking is a problem and they need to put her on notice that she'll get kicked out, then they have to tell her that and I can't protect her from her actions anymore.

Gut Check: Is this the right thing? THis is very uncomfortable...

[Zen]

At this point I think it's between you and your gut.
Personally, I always listen to my gut...

[Blueberry]

Mr. Silver-

I think you did the right thing.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that they would tell you that you need to come deal with it. As long as you feel comfortable with your decision, I think you're OK. What does your gut tell you? I know it's uncomfortable, but how does it compare to the alternative?

CA

PS - Dear world - the Silvers have had to deal with enough recently. 'K?

[rocknrollgirl]

Mr. Silver,
Your gut is really listening to your heart. I think you already know the answer, it is in your heart. We are all here for you.

[Skierchickie]

Mr. Silver,

I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this. I think you are doing the right thing - that just isn't always the easy thing. All you can really do is love her and support her when she makes good choices. I don't think it's any wonder that she is using right now - she just lost her husband of many years. If there ever was a moment in her life when she might slip, this is it. I'm not saying it's good, or that it should be ignored - just that now is when it would happen, if it were going to. If she is pretty new to recovery (or not in recovery), or was only staying sober for your father, then she probably doesn't have the tools she needs. Recovery is hard, and some people can't do it without a support group. I haven't read through this entire thread, as it is many pages long, so I don't know if she has just said "I'll stop", or if she has a support group (meetings, people to talk to, daily meditation books, etc).

Take care of yourself - I hope you've found a group. Al-Anon and open AA meetings (which I actually prefer, as feeling more real and gut-level) can do wonders. I'm embarrassed to say how long since I've been to a meeting. No excuse for that, but my friends are almost all recovery people. Talk talk talk. For you. And listen listen listen. You can't fix your mother, but you can learn how to deal with this. It took me a good 6 months to a year of Al-Anon before I felt like I "got it". I thought I got it at my very first meeting, but somehow, after going to meeting after meeting for a long time, I realized that I had never gotten it at all. I guess I'm just suggesting that you not expect overnight results.

Hang in there. And find yourself a sponsor, if you haven't yet - it really helps.

[Starfish]

Take care of yourself - I hope you've found a group. Al-Anon and open AA meetings (which I actually prefer, as feeling more real and gut-level) can do wonders.

+1 on finding a group (or several) right now. I have been to both, and for me, the best local one right now is Al Anon. The different meetings vary. Keep going 'til you find one that feels safe and helpful for you. LOTS of support there for you in ways you might not even realize you need right now.

Mr., you know something of the story of my folks. Don't know if I have ever shared here that My mom died first, and my dad, left behind, was the alcoholic. I know something of these struggles. PM me any time.

[three]

Hooray! It might seem strange to 'hooray' over something like this, but I say HOORAY!

For so many of your earlier posts on this thread, you were struggling with setting boundaries and taking steps that would force your mom to start taking responsibility for herself.

I am so happy that you did what you did. I think your 'gut' reaction (like someone else said) was your heart talking and I'm thrilled that you listened to it. As I've said before, "advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but don't want to admit it".

Personally, I feel like you did the right thing - not just for your mom, but for yourself and your family. I support you.

[invsblwmn]

Mr. Silver,
What a heck of a year for you guys. Ok, I am responding as first a person with alot of sick and dead relatives from addictions, second as a hospital based licensed social worker, and third as a certified addictions counselor.

Whoa.
My grandfather went through this process. My father went to every store that sold liquor in walking distance of my grandfather's independent living, told the store owner about the alcoholism, and threatened to have them legally charged with accessory to murder if they sold him alcohol and he subsequently died. Reality, he couldn't do this, but they didn't want the trouble. My grandfather got another resident to go buy it for him, he passed out, hit his head and died of pnemonia in the hospital during that stay. Your mom's drinking appears clearly out of control, hers, the facility's, and yours. The facility that she lives in cannot "kick her out" without due process. They would have to evict her and this is difficult. They CAN threaten to toss her hoping you'll take her out or that she will leave, but they cannot legally kick her out just for drinking. Check her living agreement there and inform yourself.
They are hoping you will control the behavior. Even nursing homes cannot kick out residents for these behaviors. What they CAN do is try to dump her at a hospital and state that she is not fit for their level of care, which she appears to be, or try to get you to take her to your home. Either idea is bad. She is troubled from the loss of her husband and by her alcohol use itself. An intervention is probably the only way to reach her.
At this point limiting the alcohol, getting rid of what you find, will slow it, but also make it more hidden. It will make you feel better for a bit, but there is always someone who will go buy more for her and feel sorry for her that her son keeps "stealing" her alcohol from her and won't let her "grieve." She probably does not see that you're trying to help her, yet.
Lastly, my FIRST client was an 82 year old grandfather whose family had convinced him that he wasn't going to get to see his grandkids anymore if he didn't get help and stop drinking. He came for 28 days of inpatient treatment, got sober, saw his grandkids and was still living and sober ten years later. I lost track of him after that and likely he has passed since then. He was a happy man who let go of his guilt and learned to live, and I mean really LIVE, without alcohol. Not all stories turn out like that, by far, but he did and so have others.
As to your role, that is up to you. You have to decide how much more you can take. The process to get someone into treatment can be difficult. It can be rewarding. If your mother's alcoholism is interfering in her life and yours, you both will eventually need to talk about it. If you decide to do an intervention, make sure you get a professional to help you with this process.
I wish you the best. There is nothing wrong with going on as you have. This is your mother's disease. She is responsible for the outcome and even with intervention, there is no guarantee. Bottom line, she determines the outcome.
Remember you did not cause this illness, you have not worsened it, and you cannot cure it. Just love your Mom the best way you know how. We are all here for you.

[Batbike]

looks like LOTS of awesome advice from those who have been involved with various types and forms of addiction/alcoholism! so many posts ... haven't read them all ....

let me add one ... only my opinion and someone may have touched on this, but don't know ...

I say this as a recovering alcoholic who was raised by 2 still very active alcoholic 70+ year old parents ... only the person with the problem can stop the problem. at 80 years of age, it is hard to imagine they will want to stop drinking unless it is a problem for them. you need to let go ... I would suggest Al-Anon to help you deal with learning how to let them do what they are going to do while you continue living your life without fear of enabling them to drink. Al-Anon is a great organization for supporting those who have to live with alcoholics in their life ....

[spokewench]

Mr. Silver:

I think you are making the correct decision with the assisted living place. They should deal with the issue with your mother. Sometimes when it comes from outside the family, it is taken more seriously.

But, as I'm sure you know, right now your mother needs a lot of comfort and love. So, do what you can to support her in her grief over losing her husband of many years, but stand firm on your decision with regard to the alcohol.

That is all we can do as childen of alcoholics. You are in my thoughts.

spoke

[Mr. Bloom]

This thread started before my Dad's death, then the last post was 11 days after his death.

Following advice from this group, a lot has happened:

- Several months ago, we asked Mom to seek counseling. She did.
- Counselors confirmed that we needed to stop "parenting the parent". We did. She started buying her own Scotch, wound up drunk in the hospital a couple of times (one time at a .28 blood/alcohol level), was on the verge of getting kicked out of her assisted living facility...

and then:
- one of her nurses took a personal and caring interest
- had a heart to heart with her
- got her into counseling with a different counselor
- got her to an AA meeting (despite Mom's reservations)

and now:
- she voluntarily went into a supervised detox
- three weeks ago, she "took a chip" at AA
- and hasn't had a drink in three weeks (longer than at anytime in my 45 years!)

I think that our "getting out of the way of her making her own choice" is the single biggest thing that will have ever happened to improve her longevity and quality of life.

Thanks to all who offered the tough advice.

[jesvetmed]

Glad things are looking up -- sounds like you got a lot of good advice and support so far.

[mimitabby]

wow! good news!!

[Tuckervill]

That's great!

Karen

[indysteel]

This thread started before my Dad's death, then the last post was 11 days after his death.

Following advice from this group, a lot has happened:

- Several months ago, we asked Mom to seek counseling. She did.
- Counselors confirmed that we needed to stop "parenting the parent". We did. She started buying her own Scotch, wound up drunk in the hospital a couple of times (one time at a .28 blood/alcohol level), was on the verge of getting kicked out of her assisted living facility...

and then:
- one of her nurses took a personal and caring interest
- had a heart to heart with her
- got her into counseling with a different counselor
- got her to an AA meeting (despite Mom's reservations)

and now:
- she voluntarily went into a supervised detox
- three weeks ago, she "took a chip" at AA
- and hasn't had a drink in three weeks (longer than at anytime in my 45 years!)

I think that our "getting out of the way of her making her own choice" is the single biggest thing that will have ever happened to improve her longevity and quality of life.

Thanks to all who offered the tough advice.

Mr. Silver and Silver,

That's great news. I hope your mom continues to stay sober. And good for you for having the courage to step back. I'll keep all of you in my prayers.

[tulip]

That is wonderful news, and very inspiring! I'm sure it's been tough, but sounds like you are doing the right thing by letter Mom take responsibility for herself. She's probably finding rather empowering.

[invsblwmn]

Congrats for your Mom, and for you for letting her do it herself. It is so hard to stay out of someone's choices when you love them so much, but it is at times the most loving thing to do. Remember that relapse is NOT FAILURE. If your Mom takes a drink, it is an opportunity to learn, not her or your failure. I wish you all the best. Take care.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Remember that relapse is NOT FAILURE. If your Mom takes a drink, it is an opportunity to learn, not her or your failure. I wish you all the best. Take care.

Wise words. Keep them in mind.
It's the whole effort and the whole journey that counts, not just one depot stop. :)