i got yelled at today

[redrhodie]

I've been in a business relationship for the past 2 months. Right from the beginning, I told them their deadlines may not be possible for me to meet, but I'd try my best and see. I met with them (they are a married couple) a few days ago, and he wanted the product(s) in stores by Christmas. I told him right then it was not possible--I would not be able to do it. They poo-pooed me, like I didn't know what I was saying, and kept talking. They're big talkers. Well, the next morning, I got an email from him detailing an even longer list of products (than the ones I had said no to completing in time for Christmas) that were due October 24th, and he was glad we were "on the same page". It was like he never listened to anything I said. He refused to acknowledge that I had said no.

So last night, after much stress and contemplation, I emailed my collegues that I was in over my head with the project, there was no way I could meet the deadlines (which should not have been a surprise to them, had they listened to me speak), and I didn't think I was right for the job. I also referred them to another person who may be able to complete the job in the time frame they wanted.

Well, first thing this morning, I get a phone call from HIM. Right from the start, he's SCREAMING at me (at 8am, I must ad). He called me every name in the book (including the "C" word), at one point YELLING "I'M A PROFESSIONAL! I'M A PROFESSIONAL WRITER AND A PROFESSIONAL BUSINESSMAN! YOU DON'T SO THIS TO ME, YOU MEALY MOUTH *****!" (professional toddler or jerk is more like it, mr. temper tantrum!) He said so much more, but it's all a blurr. I held the phone up to DBF's ear because I couldn't believe what was being said to me by this "business colleague". His (DBF's) mouth opened in shock at the tyrade, and he claims he's never heard anyone so mad before in his life. I agree with that!

I don't know what else I could have done to end a project that I couldn't do. I thought honesty was the best route to take, but I guess they wanted to be strung along, with me missing deadline after deadline. That was my alternative to the approach I took.

I also should ad, I've not been (and will not be) paid a cent for all my work, and it was many hours of labor, meeting with them, travelling for supplies, etc. They have all the things I've made so far, and I'm out a lot of hours, but thankful for the lessons learned! There's no way I would ever work with someone who was so foulmouthed, angry, and abusive. I'm glad I found out before my name was associated with them and their product. At least I can walk away with my reputation clean. I can't imagine I'm the first person he's attacked in this way.

Oh, yeah, they came to me for this. I wasn't looking for a job. They wanted to collaborate with me.

[Eden]

wow! what a jerk (sounds like my old boss.....:rolleyes: ).
You did the right thing to break it off with them. Better to cut your losses now before you're in that deep - no one needs toxic relationships like that.
Some people think that if they yell and scream and throw a tantrum miracles can happen and you'll somehow be able to make what they want done happen. I won't deal with jerks like that.

[Nokomis]

Oh, yeah, they came to me for this. I wasn't looking for a job. They wanted to collaborate with me.

:mad: That's miserable! And they didn't want to collaborate - they wanted to use you. Glad you're out now. If you had any kind of contract or understanding for your involvement, and if they are now in possetion of Anything that your time & effort went in to, send them a bill.

In future, I'd strongly reccomend working under contract only. Fees, schedules, etc. all in writing and signed by both parties before Any work is started.

[LBTC]

rr - I think you did the right thing in contacting them in writing to withdraw from the business commitment and provide them alternate solutions. He had no right to yell at you! And, yes, how great that you found this out early in the relationship, while you could still get out!

How did the conversation end? Did you respond in some way, or did you hang up and walk away?

Either way, give yourself a pat on the back! Some headaches just are not worth it!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[redrhodie]

The contract has been "coming this week" since July! I know, I shouldn't have begun the project without it (another lesson learned), and I know I have the right to fight for money, but I'd rather let it go and not have to think about them any more. They're very litigious, so there still may be some action (even though I had no contract and received no money), if that happens, I'll counter-sue for my costs. They claim we had an oral agreement, which should be disputable by the emails I sent stating I would not continue working without a contract we have all agreed to and signed.

There was also an issue with one of the suppliers not being paid, so I said I'd send the products I've worked on to them after that supplier had received and cashed their check. They went into a fit, said they'd come for "their stuff" (the products I made, unpaid) today with the police, which I know is laughable, but it did put their sanity into question. I called the supplier and told him if he doesn't receive the check, I'll pay him out of my pocket (which he said he wouldn't accept-- he's a good guy), and I sent the products off to them. It wasn't that they intimidated me (although the though has occurred to me that he might run me over while I'm riding--he was Clara Harris mad!) but more that I just don't want to waste another day dealing with them. Luckily, they don't live in my town!

Eden, I'm so sorry you had a boss like that! I can't imagine dealing with that kind of person on a regular basis. I told my dear friend about the phone call, and she said it sounds like her husband Yikes! I've been encouraging her to leave him for years.

LBTC, I was very calm, never raised my voice or sounded like he bothered me. I was very cool, hoping he would see he wasn't being rational. It ended with the wife taking the phone, and she was more reasonable, but still not quite professional. She claimed that my insistance that the supplier be paid was insulting, and that maybe I didn't pay my bills, so that's why I would accuse them of not paying theirs. Kind of nutty, right?

thanks for letting me vent! I love TE!

[redrhodie]

Not that I'm one for revenge, but if I were, I have the perfect plan....

This couple performs a cabaret act. No reason I shouldn't get first row tickets, is there? heh, heh. There's no way he wouldn't choke if he saw me in the audience. He'd lose all concentration. It would be divine to see him blow it in public.

[Duck on Wheels]

I'm not so sure they're nutty. I think they sound greedy and manipulative. And they've got their way, haven't they? Up to a point. They've got all your work so far for free, and a whole lot of supplies as well. They may well have pulled this stunt before, so if they do sue, try to find out who they've "collaborated" with before. Aside from that, you do seem to have come from the experience a wiser businesswoman. And you can be proud of yourself for keeping your cool. So breathe deep, and move on. Just hang onto those emails and whatever other documentation you have, since you may find yourself needing it down the line.

[Trek420]

Not that I'm one for revenge, but if I were, I have the perfect plan....

This couple performs a cabaret act. No reason I shouldn't get first row tickets, is there? heh, heh. There's no way he wouldn't choke if he saw me in the audience. He'd lose all concentration. It would be divine to see him blow it in public.

Yep, you and a whole lot of friends in the front row....or informational picket at the door.


I was very cool, hoping he would see he wasn't being rational. It ended with the wife taking the phone, and she was more reasonable, but still not quite professional. She claimed that my insistance that the supplier be paid was insulting, and that maybe I didn't pay my bills, so that's why I would accuse them of not paying theirs. Kind of nutty, right?

Hah, no, he's not going to see he's being unrational because trust me on this he's gotten others to do work for free, pay for supplies this way before.

[Zen]

Oh, i wish you hadn't given him the product.
He doesn't have any legal legs to stand on, particularly considering you have at least some record of your business dealings.

He'll finance his way right into bankruptcy and dig his own grave via aneurysm.

[redrhodie]

So now they want me to contact one of the maufacturers (the one who has still not been paid) to get the molds I had made sent to them. They'd "greatly appreciate any assistance". Sheesh! What a noive! :eek:

How does this sound for my response: "Since Bill referred to me as a "mealy mouth *****" and a "f***ing c**t" (among other things), in our conversation this morning, I am no longer wanting any involvement with either of you."?

Or, should I just call the guy, have the molds sent, and be done with it?

[Zen]

Or, should I just call the guy, have the molds sent, and be done with it?
ABSOLUTELY NOT
He's on his own. Obviously he's pi$$ed everybody off and thinks you might be malleable enough to do his dirty work.

Be done with him.

Do you have caller I.D.? Don't even deal with him on the phone, do everything else by email so you'll have records.

[teigyr]

I wouldn't talk to him, I wouldn't send anything to anybody, and I would pretend like he doesn't exist. That includes talking to his wife, other business partners, or anybody else to do with this.

That's just me though :D I know you did a lot of work for free but you should give up nothing else. That includes postage, time, or anything.

Rude. I read this earlier today and couldn't believe it. What a bully!

[Trek420]

The work you've done, till paid for by him .... or another client is yours to keep. If he wants to deliver a contract and pay you for the work done so far, and a hefty "I'm sorry I was such an **hole" fee I'd be done with him.

I'd report him to the BBB so prospective workers etc are warned.

As for the behavior on the phone that's unaceptable. I work in a call center and I don't tolerate it. Even when we've really f*cked things up and deserve to be called every name in the book you're talking to me, not a company, I'm a person. I will apologize up the yazoo if we blew it and even if we haven't done anything wrong as in "I'm sorry your payment that you mailed three months after it was due was late but..." and I can calm almost anyone down.

But I usually warn the caller I won't be talked to that way if they continue they go on hold till my ears stop ringing. :o

People are really rude these days.

[nancielle]

... (snippaty doo dah)at one point YELLING "I'M A PROFESSIONAL! I'M A PROFESSIONAL WRITER AND A PROFESSIONAL BUSINESSMAN! YOU DON'T SO THIS TO ME, YOU MEALY MOUTH *****!" (professional toddler or jerk is more like it, mr. temper tantrum!) ....

I also should ad, I've not been (and will not be) paid a cent for all my work, and it was many hours of labor, meeting with them, travelling for supplies, etc. They have all the things I've made so far, and I'm out a lot of hours

It sounds like he's more of a professional con artist...he got labor and product for not an ounce of effort or payment on his part. He sounds like a weasly slime bucket.

[Bad JuJu]

I wouldn't talk to him, I wouldn't send anything to anybody, and I would pretend like he doesn't exist. That includes talking to his wife, other business partners, or anybody else to do with this.

That's just me though :D I know you did a lot of work for free but you should give up nothing else. That includes postage, time, or anything.
I'm 100% with teigyr on this--don't waste any more time or energy--psychic, physical, or otherwise--on these creeps. What's almost as bad as the yelling is their refusal to listen to you. Nobody should have to put up with that.

I took a pay cut to leave one job and take a new one about 7 years ago because my boss yelled at people, sometimes in public. He never yelled at me, but it was just too hard working for a guy that I knew could go off at any moment if things weren't going his way. It was well worth the $3k a year I gave up to find a place where I could do my work in peace.

[Duck on Wheels]

So now they want me to contact one of the maufacturers (the one who has still not been paid) to get the molds I had made sent to them. They'd "greatly appreciate any assistance". Sheesh! What a noive! :eek:

How does this sound for my response: "Since Bill referred to me as a "mealy mouth *****" and a "f***ing c**t" (among other things), in our conversation this morning, I am no longer wanting any involvement with either of you."?

Or, should I just call the guy, have the molds sent, and be done with it?

Just tell them that the way to "get those molds loose" from where they're stuck is to pay for them, and that you are not about to do that since you haven't been paid yourself.

In fact, call the folks who have the molds, and say that since these folks owe you for them you'd like to have them back so you can hang onto them until you get paid.

[redrhodie]

Thanks for all the advice! I decided to not respond to their email requesting help in dealing with the manufacturer. I'm done!

More than him being a con-artist, I think he's a narcissist. He definitely has a grandiose sense of self and sense of entitlement that he should have outgrown by kindergarden.

Zen, I have good records including photocopies of all the pieces I designed, as well as every email sent by them and to them, which includes a lot of the issues (including how much and when I would be paid) that would have been addressed in the written contract that I never received. I wonder if this has any legal merit if, down the road, I discover they're selling the pieces I designed? At this point, I think it's unlikely that they'll be able to pull their act together (find some other poor schmuck to manipulate into producing a sellable product!), so it may be a moot point.

I had the best ride today. I rode as slow as I could, which was new for me. I saw views I had never noticed before on my regular route. Where'd that horse farm come from? Never noticed that before! Didn't think about them once. My life is back :D !

[redrhodie]

Just tell them that the way to "get those molds loose" from where they're stuck is to pay for them, and that you are not about to do that since you haven't been paid yourself.

In fact, call the folks who have the molds, and say that since these folks owe you for them you'd like to have them back so you can hang onto them until you get paid.

I did that today. The manufacturer received their check (yay!), but said he wouldn't send the molds until it cleared.

[Duck on Wheels]

OK. I guess. But I thought you made the molds and hadn't been paid for them. That would mean that you sent them on to the next step in the process on the understanding that you would, soon, be paid. Meanwhile, those molds are yours and are only on loan. So if it were me and my business, I'd hang onto them.

[Trek420]

I did that today. The manufacturer received their check (yay!), but said he wouldn't send the molds until it cleared.

He needs to wait until you are paid. Does the Mfr. know that you haven't? Once he sends them on .... you never will.

Again, not a lawyer, don't play one on TV but creative work is work and if he sends it on it's like sending work he doesn't own which could be a liability issue to the Mfr. Your client is bypassing you to get as much done for free.

And he'll do that to any other artist along the way.

If he can get the mold without paying you....then he'll go on and get it built but sc*ew the packaging designer or get it shipped but rip off the cost of materials and so on. All to get it done by the holiday ah....the spirit of Christmas :rolleyes: ;) :cool:

Don't enable him, work with the manufacturer who is already suspicious of his methods.

Neither of you will ever do work for Mr Sociopathic Cheapskate again, but if he wants to work with you again you can be a team on this.

[Mr. Bloom]

I've been in business for 23 years...

It's been my experience that the one who holds "the molds" ALWAYS gets paid...it's kind of a legal "ransom" relationship.

I ditto the other feedback above. I think the key at this point is "just let go"...which is easier said than done (at least in my experience...).

[Trek420]

I ditto the other feedback above. I think the key at this point is "just let go"...which is easier said than done (at least in my experience...).

I regret that this may be an expensive life lesson learned. I was in the graphic design field for about 12 years, I love art and anything related to it but it's unfortunate that for many creative folk one of the first experiences of success is getting ripped off. As in
"Hey, someone will pay me to do what i love....well maybe not".

Ask Mr. Screamer "Do you work for free? Right, I don't either" :rolleyes:

Words I watch out for to this day "this is so much fun for you" translation "this isn't work, it's play so you'll do this free, right?"

I learned:

:cool: never to work on spec and to this day I don't do "we're looking for drawings and we'll pay the best one" regardless of the prize.

:cool: never let your original work out of your sight, I don't do "oh just drop off your portfolio we just want to look". Yeah right, you want to look and have YOUR people steal the ideas.

:cool: never work without a written contract or an agent you trust.

It's a shame it has to be like this. If I could be as intuitive, flexible and creative in the business side as I can be in drawing I'd still be doing it.

[redrhodie]

Sorry to be so confusing. For designing, I was to be paid a % of sales (according to the contract I never received!). Since the product was still in development, there were no sales as it didn't get to that point. That's why I haven't been paid. In additon to the percent, I was to be paid an hourly rate for labor, also to be paid when the vendors paid for the product.

They paid for materials, including the molds (if their check clears).

Here's a simplified version (maybe?) of my quandary:

A sculptor is commissioned by a woman to make a bronze statue of her husband. He only finishes one leg, then decides he's done. Can the woman, if she's paid for the bronze, keep the leg, even though she hasn't paid the sculptor?

I wonder if I have a leg to stand? :D oh, no! that's bad!

[redrhodie]

I've been in business for 23 years...

It's been my experience that the one who holds "the molds" ALWAYS gets paid...it's kind of a legal "ransom" relationship.

I ditto the other feedback above. I think the key at this point is "just let go"...which is easier said than done (at least in my experience...).

In my field, and this is the fun and ironic part....molds are cheap and can be made from the samples they already have. They don't know they don't need the molds. They're pretty clueless.

Yeah, I'm letting this go. I'm pretty sure they won't be able to make it work anyway. It's a small industry where reputation is everything. They've already blown that.

[Mr. Bloom]

It's a small industry where reputation is everything. They've already blown that.

So, can you tell us what the product is so we can organize a universal boycott?

[r900]

I read this and it has been on my mind all day. I'm wondering if you could get a lien on this product or even the molds since it was your input that was the impetus to the molds existence. I would be willing to ask the moldmaker if they have had experience in applying for liens on products that they have made. I know that there are lots of different liens but I certainly wouldn't know. It would be great to have a voice-mail recording once he found you put a lien on the molds! Judges don't like bullies.Maybe this is over the top, but it is fun to think about being a little vindictave to these bottom feeders! I support your decision whatever you decide. They really deserve drunken hecklers at their cabaret performance. Too bad I don't live closer! go ride a bike . have some fun.

[Zen]

i find the idea of this man being a cabaret performer so intriguing and amusing.

[Mr. Bloom]

'vat good is sit-ting alone in your room?
Come here the music play!
Life is a cabaret old chum...
Come to the ca-bar-et!

[smilingcat]

Hi rr,

It's best to not interact with the jerk. The more you engage with him, its more of an opportunity for the jerk to sue you. If he does get hold of you, be pleasant and maintain your composure, make sure you document everything. Your excuse to him is that without contract AND A contract whose terms you can agree, you can not do any further work.

If he does produce a amiable contract, you can still rebuff him by saying that your work schedule has been booked up and you can not work on his project till next year. This is extremely important. And it must be in a written communication. This will show the court that you are not biased or taking a punitive action against him.

-----------

I'm sometimes bit slow but the mold was made per who's direction? And who's drawing or specification was used to make this mold? It's inconsequential as to who the final customer is. The only thing that matters to the manufacturer is who requested it, who's drawing is it.

Legally, the manufacturer can't release the mold to a third party. They'll need proof of release from you. Don't give it because you have no contract. In b2b, oral agreement means nothing since neither party can prove or disprove.

Don't answer his phone call. Record message on the answering machine. This is one of few time when recording a message is considered legal and can be used in courts in some jurisdiction. The caller knows he is leaving a message so he can't claim that the message was recorded without his knowledge.

-------------

Will he be nerve wracked at the caberet? Definitly not. They are different breed all together. The bullies rarely get that OMG feeling. Their fight/flight reaction is always fight.

smilingcat

[indigoiis]

Mean people suck.

[Python]

Ugh! There are some total plonkers around:mad: I've come across my fair share in my working life too.

If you have designed something then you should have copyrighted it at the very least.

Can you record their telephone calls to you? If not get one of these handheld dictaphones. I've got one which has a facility to record telephone conversations via a little earpiece. Surprising how some people back down very quickly when you tell them the conversation has been recorded and you will put the matter in the hands of a lawyer;)

[Duck on Wheels]

Sorry to be so confusing. For designing, I was to be paid a % of sales (according to the contract I never received!). Since the product was still in development, there were no sales as it didn't get to that point. That's why I haven't been paid. In additon to the percent, I was to be paid an hourly rate for labor, also to be paid when the vendors paid for the product.

They paid for materials, including the molds (if their check clears).

Here's a simplified version (maybe?) of my quandary:

A sculptor is commissioned by a woman to make a bronze statue of her husband. He only finishes one leg, then decides he's done. Can the woman, if she's paid for the bronze, keep the leg, even though she hasn't paid the sculptor?

I wonder if I have a leg to stand? :D oh, no! that's bad!

OK. So if that was the agreement, then you can't hold out on the mold until you get paid, but I think you probably CAN hold out on the mold until you get a written contract as to how they will pay you for it. You just say that what with the tone of voice they took with you and them not listening to a word you said, you can't move forward on the basis of an oral agreement. Again, posession is more than half the law, and if the manufacturer agrees with you, then YOU posess the mold.