Salsa Poco vs. Short-n-Shallow

[KnottedYet]

I have Salsa S-n-S 40 cm on one bike. Salsa Bell Lap 42 cm on the other bike. (the BL came with the bike)

I'm thinking I want to switch out those Bell Laps.

Question is: I want a shallow drop. The drop difference between the Pocos and the S-n-S is only 4 mm. (the reach diff is like 10 mm or so) Anybody know of a good sturdy alu or steel short reach (no more than 80mm) and drop less than 140mm bar? In a size 40 or 38? (depending on the flare) Like, a bar with LESS drop than even a Poco?

Dex, what do you have? Those were very cool bars on your LeMond.

[mimitabby]

Knot, when i was at Erik Moen's the other day; i complained that I never used the drops, that i was concerned that i couldn't reach the brakes as welll since i was never in the drops. he said "don't worry about it. Drops are over rated. You don't NEED to reach the drops."

[KnottedYet]

I love the drops on my S-n-S. I'd just like something a bit less "dropped." S'pose I should just get a pair of 40cm Pocos.

[mimitabby]

you actually use them then!

[KnottedYet]

Oh, yeah! I've always loved drops; the leverage, the security, the change in position. Fabulous!

I'm not fond of the flats. I like the curves or the hoods or the drops.

[Eden]

Knot, when i was at Erik Moen's the other day; i complained that I never used the drops, that i was concerned that i couldn't reach the brakes as welll since i was never in the drops. he said "don't worry about it. Drops are over rated. You don't NEED to reach the drops."

Eeek! I wouldn't say never - yeah I'll agree that for the most part unless your are racing you don't need to use the drops for flat roads, but everyone, regardless of their style or level of riding, benefits from the added stability and control you get from using your drops while descending, especially when descending and cornering.

As far as really shallow bars goes - have you looked at the Ritchey Pro Biomax bars? They've got an "ergobump" and they are really shallow - 130mm drop (75mm reach) http://ritcheylogic.com/web/Ritchey~Logic/Ritchey~Site/Templates/eproducts_single.aspx?id=16863&live=true
You can probably take a look at a pair in person at Ticycles - they usually have some in stock.
I had a pair of these, but I personally found that they were too shallow! In a sprint I was banging and bruising my forearms...

[dianne_1234]

I have Salsa S-n-S 40 cm on one bike. Salsa Bell Lap 42 cm on the other bike. (the BL came with the bike)

I'm thinking I want to switch out those Bell Laps.

Question is: I want a shallow drop. The drop difference between the Pocos and the S-n-S is only 4 mm. (the reach diff is like 10 mm or so) Anybody know of a good sturdy alu or steel short reach (no more than 80mm) and drop less than 140mm bar? In a size 40 or 38? (depending on the flare) Like, a bar with LESS drop than even a Poco?

Dex, what do you have? Those were very cool bars on your LeMond.

I'm not Dex, but I've seen a few Lemond WSDs with this Bontrager "FIT VR" bar:

http://www.bontrager.com/Road/Components/Handlebars/24336.php

Web site says the drop is only 120 mm! Only comes in the oversized 31.8 mm clamp diameter though.

[bike4ever]

I'm using the Bontrager Fit VR's and I really like them. Nice small drop with a shorter reach. Visually, you might think they look a little funny; however, they sure are comfortable. One thing to keep in mind with these, they are only coming in oversized.

[KnottedYet]

Ummm, how do I know if my bike needs oversized or regular?

<knot scurries off to figure out the clamp size of her Bell Laps>

Edit: according to my handy-dandy sewing tape measure it looks like the diameter of my Bell Laps is about 26mm. My stem was a special order and took many weeks to get, so I won't be switching out the stem. Guess I'm outta luck for the Bontragers. :(

Eden - thanks for the Ritchey info. I might take a tour down to TiCycles, cuz I think I've seen Salsa Pocos there, too. I can fondle both... :D

[dex]

Mine are the Bontrager FIT, as well (purchased from bike4ever, actually...thanks, again!). And I did have to switch to an oversize stem for it, but I wanted a slightly shorter stem anyway, so it was no big deal for me to do that.

The Kalloy Shortreach is similar, but doesn't need an oversized stem. And everywhere I've seen them online puts them in the low $20s range in price. (Here's one example: http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/HB409B75-Kalloy+Shortreach+Roadbar.aspx) That's what I was going to try out when I decided I wanted to try a shorter reach bar, because the price was low enough that I figured it woldn't be a huge loss if I didn't like it...and then I found a great price on the Bontrager bar here on the forum.

If you don't want to order them online, maybe check and see if the guys at Recycled have a distributor that can get some in for you to check out? Given that they're so inexpensive, they probably wouldn't have a hard time selling it if you decided you didn't like it/want it.

[KnottedYet]

Oh, wow! and only $22! Thanks, Dex!

I'm heading down to the U.W. today for some errands anyway, so I'll be stopping off at Recycled Cycles... just to look. Really. That's all I'll do.

If I get my new bar thru RC, they will give me store credit for my old bar.

Oooh, yeah.

[Starfish]

A bit of thread drift here, but related...let me know if this question had been done to death on TE...

I have very tiny hands, and the reach to the brakes is always a challenge. I'm currently double-shimmed, and it compromises excellent braking.

Do short/shallow bars help with actual finger reach to the levers, or does the short/shallow aspect only help with arm reach to the drops/bars?

I LOVE riding in the drops and use them often. My issue is really with the small size of my hands for the brakes (and I'm trying to avoid getting short reach levers on a bike I might not keep too long).

[dex]

My issue is really with the small size of my hands for the brakes (and I'm trying to avoid getting short reach levers on a bike I might not keep too long).

I have little hands and really short stubby fingers. I switched my bars and my levers at the same time, so I don't have real evidence, but my instincts say that the bar on its own wouldn't have done much to improve my finger-reach to my levers. Even though the total reach is shorter, your hands and fingers are still the same distance from where they rest on the bar to where the levers are. (At least, that seems logical in my head.)

I found my Shimano shortreach levers on eBay. When I had them switched out, I kept the ones that my bike came with so that when I decide to get a new bike, I could just put the old ones back on this bike and take the short ones over to the new bike.

The change was great, though. Shifting is a breze, and I feel way more secure now...and going downhill no longer scares me, because I can confidently reach and handle my brakes. :)

[Starfish]

Hey, Dex, thanks! That does help.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Changing to a short reach bar does not shorten your hand reach to the brake levers. You'd need to get short reach brake levers or shims for that.

I really like my new Salsa Poco bars.

[Kathi]

I have tiny hands and I use the Modolo Venus handlebars, they are short reach from the curve of the handlebar to the brakes. The handlebar only comes in a 26 mm clamp. I use Campy Record, which cannot be shimmed, and I am very comfortable in the drops and using the brakes.

When I lived in Ohio I did not use my drops, due to poor bike fit and not being able to reach the brakes. Here in Colorado, I wouldn't think of going down a descent without being in my drops. I feel more secure because braking is stronger for me from my drops. I actually go faster than some who are pedaling downhill for speed.

Today we did a 13 mile uphill and in one section an 8 mile downhill stretch and I was in my drops the whole way. Even in my .6 mile descent down the street near my house I use my drops.

It took me a little while to become comfortable with descending in my drops, I practiced on small hills and gradually moved up to bigger ones. Having the correct size handlebar and being able to reach the brakes makes a tremendous difference.

Most riders here do not use their drops, even on long descents and I keep wondering why. I've been told they are the safest position you can have. Even Connie Carpenter Phinney (Davis Phinney's) wife recommends using the drops on long descents.

[LBTC]

I'm a chicken on my road bike. I use the drops A LOT when I ride (not just descending) because of the extra stability.

I have the Ritchey Bio Max bars and love them. I ordered one size larger than the width of my shoulders as I was chicken about how twitchy the bike would be if I went any narrower. It would be interesting for me to try a narrower bar sometime, just to see.

There might be something about the odd angles on the Ritchey bar, but I think that it did improve the hand reach for me and my tiny hands, but I really can't quite remember.

Have fun buying new bars!!

H&B
~T~

[divingbiker]

I found my Shimano shortreach levers on eBay.

So do the shortreach levers alone do the trick, or do you need special hoods too? I've already got shims in my levers, and I've got new Salsa Poco bars, but I still can't reach the brakes comfortably. Are shortreach levers what I need? Can you just swap them out without undoing handlebar tape etc?

I have no clue about this stuff...

[KnottedYet]

On my shortreach S-n-S bars I can reach my brake levers from the drops. On my regular bars I can't, not because the levers are too far away from the bars, but because they are too high above the drops.

If I scoot my hands waaaaaaay up above the ergo bump, I can wrap my fingers around the brake levers. Otherwise I'm barely able to catch the lever with the very tip of my index finger.

I have long fingers. In my case, what I need is a lower drop bar so that I can reach the levers from the drops. (bringing my hands up to the levers) I don't really need shims or short reach brake levers (essentially bringing my hands forward toward the levers or the levers backwards toward me).

I love my shorter reach brake-only levers by Shimano. But they are the ones I can't reach from the drops! How ironic! The hoods are shorter, if only because they are pure brakes rather than brifters.

I think hoods are pretty integral with the levers, but if you could switch out only the levers (are they more curved?) I don't think you'd need to unwrap and re-wrap the bars. You'd just have to pull the hood covers back and replace the lever itself. If you have to replace the whole she-bang, well, then you're looking at re-doing the bars. That really isn't too hard, it just takes a little time and patience. (ok, and a beer and some choice swear words and a couple breaks to pet the dog)

[Starfish]

So, I'm hearing that no, SnS bars don't really help with brake reach, and that, yes, SnS bars can help with brake reach.

I know that the thing is always to go out and test & try, but I'm finding it VERY hard to find an assortment of setups to try that are actually made up in shops. I'm a little daunted at how much money I could spend trying to find the right combo of levers and bars.:confused:

[KnottedYet]

I guess it really depends on why you can't reach the levers.

Are your hands lined up with the brake lever when you are in the drops? But you still can't get your fingers around the levers, like your fingers just aren't long enough? That might be a case for closer/shimmed brakes, or a bar with a different shaped ergo bump or stepped bend to put your hand closer.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m21/KnottedYet/DSCN0504.jpg

Are your hands too far away from the brake lever when you are in the drops? Like you have to move your entire hand to get to a spot on the bar where you can wrap your fingers around the brake lever? That might be a case for a short drop bar or a bar with a different ergo bump for hand placement. Especially if moving the levers so they are accessible from the drops will mess with how you ride on the tops.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m21/KnottedYet/DSCN0502.jpg

(The first picture is me faking short fingers on my nice, close shimano brake-only levers. The second picture is me exaggerating slightly how my Bell Lap drops are too low for me to just reach out and grab my nice close Shimano brake-only levers. I have very long fingers, but small hands. This is the problem I'm having, and I think a shallower-drop would be nice and would lift my hands back up into line with my levers. I should've posted a pic of my hand and my S-n-S bars... sorry.)

[dex]

And I have both small hands *and* short fingers, so the combination of shallow drops and shorter reach levers was necessary for me to get things to a place where I could confidently (or even safely) ride in the drops.

[divingbiker]

Ok, here are some pics so maybe you can help diagnose my problem. I am not pretending to have short fingers--I really do! :p

Here are my Poco bars and brake levers. (Ignore my messy basement.)

4086

And here is my hand when I am in the most comfortable position holding the ergo bend part of the bar. My fingers barely touch the lever.

4087

Is the handlebar my problem, or the reach to the lever?

Thank you for any insight!

[KnottedYet]

My guess would be the bar and the ergo bump are the issue, just because your hand looks like mine on my Bell Lap. Like if your hand was just comfy further up the bend everything would line up right. What happens if you move your hand off the comfy spot to just behind the lever? Can you wrap your fingers around the lever then? Or do you need short reach levers, too?

On my S-n-S my hand sits much closer in line with the levers, the ergo bump is in the "right" spot, though I still have to move my hand a little to get a really good grip on the levers.

(hey, if you go for a shallower drop bar and your Pocos need a new home, let me know. :D )

[divingbiker]

My guess would be the bar and the ergo bump are the issue, just because your hand looks like mine on my Bell Lap. Like if your hand was just comfy further up the bend everything would line up right. What happens if you move your hand off the comfy spot to just behind the lever? Can you wrap your fingers around the lever then? Or do you need short reach levers, too?

On my S-n-S my hand sits much closer in line with the levers, the ergo bump is in the "right" spot, though I still have to move my hand a little to get a really good grip on the levers.

(hey, if you go for a shallower drop bar and your Pocos need a new home, let me know. :D )

When my hand is further up, above the ergo bend and below the hood, I can reach just fine. It's just not comfortable. It's weird, though, because when I was using the Poco bars during my bike fitting, I could reach the levers just fine.

Those brand new Pocos just might be looking for a home soon...

[Starfish]

All straightened out as long as possible, my very longest finger is just shy of 3" (that's the middle finger...the index is a full 1/2 inch shorter than that), and at its longest, my palm is 3.25". I already have my Shimano 105 breaks double shimmed. That enables me to hit the lever just closer to my hand than my last knuckle out toward the fingertip.

From the drops with the double shims, I can reach OK, but the double shims do compromise full braking strength, and I want more braking power.

I have comfy ergo bars...love the shape and feel of them except for the braking issue, and I also have fairly good padding (all Specialized comfort stuff), and that could maybe make the bar a little fatter.

I think my hand is about as close to the levers as it is going to get...I don't think position is the issue. I just have hands that are typically a full inch or so shorter than most everyone I know.

[KnottedYet]

DB - If they were good at the fitting, maybe something just needs a little tweaking to make them good again.

Starfish - I've never really looked at short-reach levers, but it sounds like you could sure use them! I wonder if you can shim short-reaches and make them super short? (what levers do Kona and Trek use on their kids road and cyclocross bikes? Would they be cheaper than "adult" short reach levers? They've gotta be small for kids hands, right?)

[divingbiker]

DB - If they were good at the fitting, maybe something just needs a little tweaking to make them good again.

Yeah, I think another trip to the shop is in order. Except the "L"BS where I did the fitting is an hour away...

[dex]

Starfish, your hands sound very similar in size to mine (though probably not as chubby--my mom *still* teases me for having chubby little kid hands). I think my middle finger is about 3.25" and my palm is about 3" at its longest line. If I were at home, I would measure it, but I'm currently trying to trick myself into being productive by sitting at a coffee shop with my laptop.

I do have one shim in my R700 levers, and I know I have the option of putting another in there, but I don't need it. Unfortunately, I can't compare my levers with the 105's that you're using. I went from the un-adjustable Tiagra levers to these.

Here's a link (http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441774695&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302053419&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181785&bmUID=1187557026510) to the levers I have on the Shimano site. If you're ever near Seattle, let me know and I'd be happy to let you check out the levers on my bike for yourself. Even on eBay, they weren't exactly cheap, so I can understand the hesitancy to drop money on something that may not meet your needs.

[sundial]

OK, I've been meaning to ask. I know the Salsa bars are shallower--are they narrower too? I have broad shoulders and my stock bar is fine width wise, but I have to shim my levers too.

[sundial]

Knotted, I think you should open a bike shop that carries ONLY WSD bikes. :D

[dex]

Knotted, I think you should open a bike shop that carries ONLY WSD bikes. :D

Noooo! Because I wouldn't be able to shop there. :(

[KnottedYet]

Knotted, I think you should open a bike shop that carries ONLY WSD bikes. :D

I wouldn't be able to shop there, either! (I can't ride WSD, they always feel cramped for my body proportions.)

Salsa's Poco and Short-n-Shallows come in 2 cm increments as far as width goes. I think 36/38/40/42/44. I'd have to look it up, and I'm too busy watching Utilikilt mock-u-mercials right now! :D www.salsacycles.com

[Kathi]

Here's the handlebar that I use. I can reach my brakes very comfortably but I also had to have the lbs adjust them for my hands and not theirs.

http://www.modolo.com/1_road_handlebars_temp.php?id=9

BTW, my middle finger measures 2.75" and I have had 1st graders with larger hands than mine.

[Starfish]

Here's the handlebar that I use. I can reach my brakes very comfortably but I also had to have the lbs adjust them for my hands and not theirs.

http://www.modolo.com/1_road_handlebars_temp.php?id=9

BTW, my middle finger measures 2.75" and I have had 1st graders with larger hands than mine.

This is quite interesting to me. You said you had Campy Record. I have heard that sometimes folks with small hands do well with Campy. How much of your good fit do you attribute to the LBS set up, the bars, and the Record?

Gads...I suppose I am just going to have to go out and get a full Record rig! ;)

[Kathi]

I went to Campy years ago because the hoods felt so much better to me than Shimano. However, I couldn't reach the brake leves from the drops. My handlebars were Deda 4girls, 38 cm. I had used the Terry bars with the cutout but still had problems.

Last year I built a new bike. My LBS wanted me to used Shimano sort reach levers and Poco bars. I just didn't feel comfortable with the Shimano hoods and wanted to stay with Campy. To make matters worse my shoulders measure 34cm. 36cm is usually the smallest they come.

Someone on another forum told me about the Modolo bars so I tried them out on my old bike first. They come in a 34cm and I loved them. From the curve in the bar I can wrap the first joint of my middle and index fingers around them. I have a lot more power braking and can stay in my drops on long downhills with little discomfort.

There is also the Eva bar, made by 3T, which has a similiar design in the curve of the bar. I couldn't use it because it doesn't come small enough for me.

The bar alone, size and design, did the trick for me. The shifters sit flat on the top of the bar.

[Kathi]

I went to Campy years ago because the hoods felt so much better to me than Shimano. However, I couldn't reach the brake leves from the drops. My handlebars were Deda 4girls, 38 cm. I had used the Terry bars with the cutout but still had problems.

Last year I built a new bike. My LBS wanted me to used Shimano sort reach levers and Poco bars. I just didn't feel comfortable with the Shimano hoods and wanted to stay with Campy. To make matters worse my shoulders measure 34cm. 36cm is usually the smallest they come.

Someone on another forum told me about the Modolo bars so I tried them out on my old bike first. They come in a 34cm and I loved them. From the curve in the bar I can wrap the first joint of my middle and index fingers around them. I have a lot more power braking and can stay in my drops on long downhills with little discomfort.

There is also the Eva bar, made by 3T, which has a similiar design in the curve of the bar. I couldn't use it because it doesn't come small enough for me.

The bar alone, size and design, did the trick for me. The shifters sit flat on the top of the bar.

Here's the thread from last year where I posted my review of the Venus bars and tried to compare them with the Deda 4girls.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6655&page=2&highlight=modolo+venus

[Starfish]

Kathi, thanks!!

It might be that I just have to settle for "first-knuckle" braking, and do a bunch of hand exercises to get stronger with that.