from this point, it might get ugly

[mimitabby]

Hi guys, I got my beautiful new frame from the UPS man tonight. At precisely 6:01 pm.

The frame is beautiful, but there are problems. The promised brazeons are not brazed on.

I just printed out 11 pages of emails back and forth between me and the guy at Smart Cycle. In his very first email to me he said he could put brazeons on the frame. Then later, i ask him again for brazeons, and he acted like he was going to make sure of it.

There are some other minor problems but they are no big deal (like he said that he was painting the crown of the fork and a promised decal is not there)
The brazeons are a big deal.
And of course, I am totally intimidated because he got nasty with me when
after 2 weeks of it being "in transit" I got discouraged and then the bike miraculously appeared.

Suggestions, girls?

Thanks for listening if nothing else.

[Dianyla]

Wow. Just, wow. :mad:

Forgive me, I haven't been following it so closely, but is this guy the highest person in his company? Is there anyone above him you can escalate this to?

[mimitabby]

he's the owner
here's his signature line. oh yeah. and he never sent me a bill of sale (i paid with visa, but no receipt!)

Alex Stanek
Owner - Manager - Famous Bike Fitter - Mechanic - Gopher - Custodian - Wheel Builder
Training Wheel Installer - Accountant - Marketing Director - Dumpster Cleaner!
Smart Cycles, Inc.
303 Strawberry Hill Ave
Norwalk, CT 06851
203-831-9144
203-831-9129 Fax

[Wahine]

Ooooooooooo. Not good.

I don't envy you at all. I have trouble returning things under the best circumstances. I don't think I could handle something like this.

Good luck Mimi.

[Xrayted]

I know you've been going through all kinds of stuff with this guy from the beginning. What an azz. :mad:

Mimi, I wonder what he thinks is going to happen when you see that frame and it's not what you asked for? No braze-ons at all or what? And if you send it back to get fixed, how long is it gonna take this time? It'll have to get repainted and everything. I say let a couple of the TE ladies up there in the NE states go in there and kick his shins in for ya.

I'm so sorry that you are still going to have to deal with this d*ckhead some more. Good luck and keep us posted. :)

[LBTC]

Sending reconciling communicating satisfaction producing butterflies your way. Hey, they might help!

Good luck!
H&B
~T~

[Triskeliongirl]

I am soooo soooory this happened to you Mimi. I think you should definitely return the bike. I just sent you an email with more thoughts on this matter. Be strong, at least you have a bike to ride you enjoy, and just take your time getting this worked out. After the bike is returned, if I were you I would return to the PT you liked so much, and let him design you the frame of your dreams, and install the parts you bought. A good frame builder will consider both fit and function, building it to take the range of tire sizes and fenders that you, the customer, want, as well as fitting you like a glove. So, cheer up, if you handle this correctly you'll still end up with your dream bike.

[roguedog]

Awww.. bumming mimi.

Hmm.. did he charge you extra for the brazeons? If not you can take it to.. the shop that did dh's bike to do it?

If so,.. well, that's stickier..or maybe not since he charged you more and didn't deliver. seems pretty straightforward??? No?

[Dianyla]

(i paid with visa, but no receipt!)
*emphasis mine* This is a very important leverage point - most credit card companies offer some protection to you as the buyer. They may be able to give you a complete refund and then they'll take it up with this guy.

Then you can then take your money and your frame business elsewhere.

[Triskeliongirl]

I think this problem is way bigger than a lack of braze ons. I wonder if the frame even has clearance for fenders. If not it could mean moving the bridge, and even adding braze ons means repainting (and there may still not be fender clearance under the fork). This man has had enough time to make it right, so I think the frame should be sent back. Moreover, I am now concerned if this frame will even fit Mimi. After all that she has been through I did a bit of sleuthing. I know he told her it would fit, but it bugged me right from the beginning when I asked her about the frame geometry that she said she didn't know. So, I looked up this info. Now, I may be wrong about the sizes, and her veloce may be diff. from the 2006 I found the stats on, but based on what I found out I am not sure this frame is even going to fit her. By that, I believe the fit on the Mondonico and Veloce will be very similar, but I thought she wanted the new bike to both take fenders AND have a shorter reach (and at one point take 650c tires which neither bike does).

These are the stats I found:

Mondonico geometries are from this site: http://www.bikyle.com/Mondonico.asp
Veloce's are from this site: http://www.bianchiusa.com/06_veloce.html

49 cm veloce has a sta of 76 and TT of 51.8.
48 cm mondomico futura leggero has a sta of 76.5 and TT of 51.5, but if you correct for the steeper STA, its like a TT of 52. So it will feel 0.2 cm longer.

Mimi, did you understand when you ordered this bike that it would fit just like the veloce? If you didn't the seller misled you. If I were you I would use the lack of braze ons to return it for a full refund. Then take your parts to that nice PT that fit you, and have him build you the bike of your dreams. Since you have emails documenting that it would have the braze ons, perhaps you can get the VISA company to phone him for you and agree to a FULL REFUND.

[Velobambina]

Mimi--I would send it back. It's a lovely frame but it isn't what you ordered. You paid for the braze ons? Will you really be able to enjoy this bike, knowing that it isn't exactly what you wanted? Will it remind you of the "Dumpster Cleaner?" I'm with the others---get your credit card company to help you with the refund and send it back. Maybe you can send a letter to his local better business bureau, reporting what happened.

[Bluetree]

Mimi, I agree with the others – get your refund. Credit card companies tend to favor customers over retailers, especially is you have the documentation. You should be overjoyed and satisfied with your new frame... you should not be looking at it with associations of anger, regret or resentment. You deserve better... {{{Mimi}}}

[7rider]

Bummer.
Perhaps "Smart Cycles" should change there name by adding "Not Too" to the front! :rolleyes:
I would definitely talk to Visa about options. Then call Mr. Gopher/Dumpster Cleaner when you have some ammo (other than the big Nuke - a bike that doesn't meet your order).
Mom always told me "you catch more flys with honey than with vinegar" - but something tells me you're past the point of trying to sweet-talk this guy. Sounds like the only option is to send it back. Sux with these cross-country purchases.
Good luck and may better bikes (and better bike dealers) be ahead for you in the future!

[lizbids]

I don't know if it's b/c you're a woman (I hate to play the gender card, but man, it's used often!), but I find that retailers and sellers in general often give women less respect. And I can't tell how many ladies of color are out there on this forum, but people of color get it all the time too, man or woman.
They don't fulfill needs that you want, and then after giving you something you don't want, they try to talk you out of your original idea. It all depends on the person. One bike shop I went to: the guy was great, and I bought some shoes. He was friendlly and knowledgeable. The LBS is great too (well the owner es.). But then I found myself in one of the biggest stores in NYC for sports ,and the seller was a total tool. Was barely concerned with helping me and not addressing my issues. Next store: even worse! Had a seller ARGUE with me when I asked for MTB pedals for a tour rather than road. Very obnoxious and aloof.

You know though? I used to be the type to scream and yell, but now I just quietly demand and hold my ground. Once they realize you're not going away, that you WILL be that thorn in their side before they change their tune, they usually acquiesce. STAND YOUR GROUND. To me, success is reserved for those who are persistent. :D

[mimitabby]

Thank you all for your wisdom. Thanks for reminding me of my Visa protection.
My visa account is actually with my credit union, so this should help too (they're very accessible)

To calm Trisk's concerns, The geometry of this bike is NOT what she found on line, it has woman's specific geometry, the top tube is 50.5 cm and the bianchi is 51.5, i measured it first thing (right after i searched for the brazeons!!)
after she asked me about the dimensions, i asked this guy what they were
and he blew me off.

But this morning I am walking with a lawyer friend. hehehehe and I will talk to her about this. I think you guys are right, I should send it back despite the fact that it's beautiful and I finally have a custom italian bike and it's even the color i wanted.


Velo, I have NO IDEA what I paid for (other than the frame and fork) because
he never sent me a bill or receipt.
I know what we TALKED about. Midway through negotiation he called me and he listed the things I wanted (which unfortunately I didn't record!!!)
and I didn't get all of those things either. so go figure.

[mimitabby]

I don't know if it's b/c you're a woman (I hate to play the gender card, but man, it's used often!), but I find that retailers and sellers in general often give women less respect. And I can't tell how many ladies of color are out there on this forum, but people of color get it all the time too, man or woman.

You know what though? I used to be the type to scream and yell, but now I just quietly demand and hold my ground. Once they realize you're not going away, that you WILL be that thorn in their side before they change their tune, they usually acquiesce. STAND YOUR GROUND. To me, success is reserved for those who are persistent. :D

Lizbids, KimmieT mentioned this also. THe way he shut me down, I am sure you're right. But he never tried to change my mind, I think he FORGOT what i wanted (and didn't write it down??!?)and then it was too late (bike already painted) so he just kept bs' ing me.
I couldn't figure out why (in his last emails to me) that he kept saying i was going to have to be CREATIVE to put fenders on it.. that's a damn far stretch from what he said in his first email;

I also have a 48cm Mondonico Women's Countach ($1099). It has a 50.5cm top tube which sounds exactly like what you are looking for. A Countach is the same thing as a Futura, except it is tig welded and not lugged. It is a very neat women's setup.

You can equip these frame with forks that will accommodate fenders no problem. The rear triangle of the frame can have braze-ons installed so you can attach racks or fenders as well...

[East Hill]

You know though? I used to be the type to scream and yell, but now I just quietly demand and hold my ground. Once they realize you're not going away, that you WILL be that thorn in their side before they change their tune, they usually acquiesce. STAND YOUR GROUND. To me, success is reserved for those who are persistent. :D

Yes, sometimes you have to be willing to stand there and make all their customers feel uncomfortable :( .

East Hill

[spokewench]

I know you want this bike so if you have the perserverence and want to wait a long time (it seems); send the bike back, with a letter in writing about what is wrong with the bike, what they said they would do and what they did not.

Then, tell them you would like it replaced with what you ordered. List everything you want in detail in the letter in writing. Ask for conformation of a price in writing for that exact bike with everything you want, plus tax if connecticut charges tax.

Also, ask for confirmation in writing for approximately how long it will take to deliver the bike that you want.

If your dumpster cleaner is not willing to give this to you in writing, when this should be standard procedure for a business, then do not deal with him. Are there any other dealers for these bikes in USA? If so, try one of them.

Get everything in writing is the key. Then you have something to hold them to. jan

[Trek420]

I don't know if it's b/c you're a woman (I hate to play the gender card, but man, it's used often!), but I find that retailers and sellers in general often give women less respect. And I can't tell how many ladies of color are out there on this forum, but people of color get it all the time too, man or woman.

Oh yeah, ask me about my cleats.

Mimi, you wanted braze ons, you were told you would get braze ons, it does not have braze ons....tell Learning-Disabled Cycles you're sending it back. You should be delighted with a Mondonico not dissapointed.

I PM'd you Chairman Bill's e-mail address juuuuuuuuust in case you need to escalate further up.

Trek-loves my Mondonico-420

[mimitabby]

Oh yeah, ask me about my cleats.

Mimi, you wanted braze ons, you were told you would get braze ons, it does not have braze ons....tell Learning-Disabled Cycles you're sending it back. You should be delighted with a Mondonico not dissapointed.

I PM'd you Chairman Bill's e-mail address juuuuuuuuust in case you need to escalate further up.

Trek-loves my Mondonico-420

Trek, thanks for the email address. I'm not sure that it will help. After all,
at this point, if he was going to make it right (and i don't believe he will,
after all he said: "I can sell this frame over and over and over....if you don't want it, it doesn't phase me at all."

he doesn't sound like the make it right kind of guy; he sounds more like
he'd just rather take it and resell it to someone else who isn't so difficult " I put more time into this sale than I usually do since you had special interests and requests."



yeppers, i have a paper trail a mile long.

[lizbids]

Some people are suggesting sending the bike back and asking for the following changes, but I think you should send the bike back with a certified letter/return receipt rejecting any charges he will put on your Visa bill. I wouldn't use this d**ckhead anymore. He's better off just taking it back, and if you have ANYTHING in writing via email, print it and save it for future legal battle. I think he will probably just give you what you want to make you go away. If not, all of us on the forum can take a little trip to Conn. and do donuts on his lawn. :p :p :p :p

[mimitabby]

LIzbids;
The visa payment charge was on my February bill. It's already paid for.

I have already printed it all out (oh, i LOVE gmail)

and What you are suggesting is just about what I was thinking... Registered
is a good idea.

[mimitabby]

PS no one from Connecticut has surfaced yet (to go visit him)

[Trek420]

I got my Mondonico here:

www.robinsonww.com

I am very happy with it. Yes, it took a while to get the full custom bike from Italy but I had very good service.

[KnottedYet]

Mimi - If you want to do your next Mondonico thru Robinson Wheel Works (Chris is AWESOME) you and I can do a road trip or two or three down there. I'd be HAPPY to go to CA with you, and I have room inside my station wagon for a bike (your new Mondonico wouldn't even have to ride outside on a bike rack).

Let's see... one trip down for initial fitting and ordering... visit Trek;)
second trip down to check frame is perfect and start build.... visit Trek:D
third trip down to test ride and pick up bike... visit Trek:p

Yup, sounds great to me!

[mimitabby]

Mimi - If you want to do your next Mondonico thru Robinson Wheel Works (Chris is AWESOME) you and I can do a road trip or two or three down there. I'd be HAPPY to go to CA with you, and I have room inside my station wagon for a bike (your new Mondonico wouldn't even have to ride outside on a bike rack).

Let's see... one trip down for initial fitting and ordering... visit Trek;)
second trip down to check frame is perfect and start build.... visit Trek:D
third trip down to test ride and pick up bike... visit Trek:p

Yup, sounds great to me!

THanks, Knot, that's a very sweet offer. I'll let you know.
Off to see my lawyer friend for a walk, be back later!

[salsabike]

Mimi, I am not positive about this but I believe you can dispute a credit card charge even after it's shown up on your bill--that's the whole point of the credit card dispute process. It's not like having a check cashed and now irrevocable. You file a dispute with your CC company saying you did not get what you ordered.

I'd try to return it for a FULL refund and find someone easier to work with, myself.

[Xrayted]

Mimi - maybe no one from CT has spoken up, but I'm only about an 9 hour drive from there. Just give me something to mapquest and I'm gone.... :D (Kit is definitely rubbing off on me. :o)

[xeney]

I am going to suggest a slightly different approach, which is to keep the credit card option as a backup, but try to resolve it with him first. I'm with the people who think you should just return the frame -- you are in a position where you are going to need really good customer service now to make sure that you get what you ordered without having to wait a very long time, and this guy has demonstrated that he is not going to give you good customer service.

But the way I understand it, you can't dispute the credit card bill until you've given the merchant a chance to make it right. So you have to go to him first. I wouldn't, if it were me, give him the option of fixing the frame; I'd first make a list of all the things that weren't done (was the bridge moved to accommodate fenders? I didn't see if that question was answered), and then I would write him a letter listing what he said he would do vs. what he actually did, and then I would ask for a return shipping label so that you can return the frame. I would send that letter certified mail along with copies of anything you have in writing (including e-mails).

I might also e-mail or fax him a copy of the letter so that it gets there more quickly. Give him a deadline, as well: you want the return shipping label within two weeks and you expect to have your money refunded within 30 days after you return the frame. Don't be snippy or snide, just be very matter of fact. That works best in these situations.

He will probably comply. Most business people do when they get a certified letter. If not, wait out the thirty days, and then take it up with your credit card company. (You might want to call them to verify any time limits, but I am pretty sure that they are going to require you to attempt to settle the dispute with him first.)

[Eden]

And now for something totally different.....

It doesn't take away from the frustration of not getting what you asked and paid for, but...

You can put fenders on a bike without brazons. You can get speed fenders or with some creativity you can put on full fenders. We require all of our riders to have fenders in the winter and racing bikes nearly never have eyelets. I've seen some very creative jobs indeed, many involving pipe hangers or hose clamps - just be sure to protect your paint job with some electrical tape. Now if you wanted to put on racks for touring it would be a different thing, but fenders are still doable.

[Blueberry]

I do think you can dispute the charge even after it's shown up on your bill, and been paid, but I think there's a relatively short window to do so (60 or 90 days). I'd call the card company ASAP and at least give them a heads up that there's a problem and you're trying to work through it with the guy.

Good luck - it sucks to wait so long for something and then not have it be right. We went through the same with our bike fridays - the difference is that the company was horrified, and has since made it right!

*hugs*

Carrie Anne

[mimitabby]

Hey guys, just got back from my 5 mile walk with my lawyer friend. Your advice is better than hers. most of her advice had to do with what happens after all communication breaks down;
her main good point was be sure you have the bike when you are negotiating. and she talked about small claims court.

I just got off the phone with Robinson Wheel, didn't get to talk to Chris, spoke to a young sounding fellow named Tim instead. He was mystified on how Smartcycle even had an unpainted Kountach model bike, that they come from Italy already painted, that they get sent to California ...
anyway, he expressed skepticism that the bike should have brazons on it even. and like Eden, he recommended the blade fenders. . .
argh.
Tomorrow I go to Elliott Bay Bike with the frame and will present my case to them. my husband wants me to send the bike back and get a Davidson instead.
Xeney, unless they talk me into keeping the bike tomorrow; i am going to do exactly what you are suggesting. Write a letter, email it and mail it registered mail, enumerating all his broken promises and asking for my money back. and arranging to return the bike.
The one thing i am sure about is that he will not follow through so I do not want to send the bike back to him "to make it right" and have him doing his passive aggressive thing on me for months and months, while the bike hangs in the back of his shop somewhere. I will not subject myself to that bs again.

[Triskeliongirl]

LIzbids;
The visa payment charge was on my February bill. It's already paid for.

I have already printed it all out (oh, i LOVE gmail)

and What you are suggesting is just about what I was thinking... Registered
is a good idea.

I am absolutely sure you can protest a credit card charge after paying your bill. Credit card companies are great at this sort of thing, so if I were you I would phone the credti card company before I did anything else for their advice. Be simple with them, explain the item did not have the promosed specificiations and you want their help in returning it for a full refund. I would not let him make it right, because it can't be made right. You told me the fork does not have clearance for fenders. Even with a braze on, does the bridge have room for a tire to clear with fenders mounted? My impression is that this is a racing frame, and it is much harder to modify a racing frame to accept fenders, than to build the frame that way in the first place. I know this cuz I did buy a sport bike that I converted to a lite tourer, and that was when I realized these differences. If you look at a frame designed for wide tires and fenders, you'll see the bridge is higher, and the distance between the seat stays in longer. Likewise, the fork crown is higher and distance between the fork blades are also longer. Not all bikes can be retrofit and its seems like, as beautiful as this frame is, its just not a good candidate. You are lucky. You have in writing his promise that it would be fit with fender braze ons. Its not. You paid with your credit card, so your credit card company should be able to advocate for you to get a refund. Good luck, but PLEASE PLEASE return this bike and do not continue to deal with this DISHONEST man. I would also be careful about bringing it to this other shop. You don't want it damaged carting it around. You also can't say the fit is better than the bianchi without knowing the seat tube angle. I have told you this over and over and you never get it, but reach is dicated by BOTH the seat tube angle AND the top tube length. Before you decide to keep this bike you need to know EXACTLY how the reach will compare to your bianchi so you aren't disappointed again when it is built up. I would return it because even if they can put those fenders designed for racing bikes, they do not work as well as real fenders (see sheldon brown's discussion of this). You are paying a lot of money for this, and I think you will really regret it later if it doesn't have full fenders. Also, don't you want to use tires wider than 25c? Despit its aesthetic appeal, I really think this bike was a mistake for you, so use their screw up to get you out of this. I agree with your husband. If you go with a local builder, there is a real person responsible for your satisfaction. This screwed up cuz Smart Cycles sells bikes on the internet. THey don't care about repeat business, they don't care about their local community of cyclists, you are nothing to them. Whether its Davidson or that PT you went to, go to someone you can visit with, who can observe you on your veloce and see what you like and don't,who'll ask you want you want your bike to DO.

[KnottedYet]

Was Chris at lunch or something?

Tim looks older than Chris (late 40's early 50's) from what I remember, but he does have a young voice.

Remember, if you get a Mondonico from Chris like Trek did, it will be custom made for you with all your specifications (room for fenders, etc like Trisk says); rather than a modified existing frame like Mr. DumpsterDiver is trying to shove off on you.

It will take longer, but might be worth it.

[Triskeliongirl]

Was Chris at lunch or something?

Tim looks older than Chris (late 40's early 50's) from what I remember, but he does have a young voice.

Remember, if you get a Mondonico from Chris like Trek did, it will be custom made for you with all your specifications (room for fenders, etc like Trisk says); rather than a modified existing frame like Mr. DumpsterDiver is trying to shove off on you.

It will take longer, but might be worth it.

I couldn't agree more. Mimi, you have a perfectly acceptable bike you can ride right now, your veloce. TO create a dream bike takes time. Once you broker the return of this bike, you need to slow down, take a deep breath, first find a local builder you feel understands both your FIT and FUNCTION needs, and then BE PATIENT while a bike is made that meets those. Everyone I know that has done this has no regrets. Remember, you will ride a bike like this for 20 years, so even if it takes several months to start over, that is nothing compared to the years of pleasure it will give you. I noticed another thing in your email, you referred to this bike as a custom mondonico but its not a custom bike for you, whether its a custom bike for someone else's specs, or stock bike, it won't compare with a bike made for your body and your riding needs.

[mimitabby]

Was Chris at lunch or something?

Tim looks older than Chris (late 40's early 50's) from what I remember, but he does have a young voice.

It will take longer, but might be worth it.
ha, no matter what i do now it's going to take longer!

Chris was with another customer, and Tim was pleasant and respectful. Knowing his age gives him even more credibility, thanks Knot. (see that, I'm prejudiced against young men!)

Trisk, I am sure you are right, the bike needs to go back, we've re-wrapped it
so I'm not worried about hurting it by taking it to the bike shop it's in the box.

Will call the credit union on monday and see what my options are.

I know that the racing fenders aren't like real fenders, that's part of why I was still shopping for a bike. And I was going by my Physical THerapist's recommendations, that's how I arrived at that bike.

[Triskeliongirl]

I was going by my Physical THerapist's recommendations, that's how I arrived at that bike.

Did you PT have the full specs on the frame geometry before you ordered, that means the seat tube angle as well as top tube length. If he just told you that you need a bike with a certain size top tube, he may have been assuming a standard seat tube angle like 73 (this is what a fit kit does) but then you need to add a cm to the TT legnth for each degree increase in seat tube angle. Mondonicos have *VERY STEEP* seat tubes, so that I why I am worried this may still not even fit you. PLEASE try to understand this before you order you next frame. I think it is explained well here: http://www.cervelo.com/viewkb.aspx?id=00692

[KnottedYet]

Would you consider calling Chris (and talking to Chris or asking Tim to have Chris call you back when he's available) and explaining what you need in a bike, and asking if they can help you get a truly CUSTOM Mondonico with the clearance and braze-ons you want?

Tim was probably right, that you can't modify the existing frame for what you need. Mr. DumpsterDiver was probably pulling a fast one telling you he could do it for you.

Now that you are getting free of the "wrong" frame, maybe ask Chris if Mondonico can create a frame, the "right" frame, just for you?

Not modify and paint an existing pre-made frame, but make an entirely new one to meet YOUR measurements and YOUR requirements?

(Chris and Mondonico did it for Trek, I bet they could do it for you)

[Triskeliongirl]

Would you consider calling Chris (and talking to Chris or asking Tim to have Chris call you back when he's available) and explaining what you need in a bike, and asking if they can help you get a truly CUSTOM Mondonico with the clearance and braze-ons you want?

Tim was probably right, that you can't modify the existing frame for what you need. Mr. DumpsterDiver was probably pulling a fast one telling you he could do it for you.

Now that you are getting free of the "wrong" frame, maybe ask Chris if Mondonico can create a frame, the "right" frame, just for you?

Not modify and paint an existing pre-made frame, but make an entirely new one to meet YOUR measurements and YOUR requirements?

(Chris and Mondonico did it for Trek, I bet they could do it for you)

I couldn't agree more. Again, I am worried cuz Mimi refers to going to this shop to see if they can talk her into keeping it. Mimi, to decide that you need to ask yourself why you thought you were buying this frame, if you think it meets your needs. I don't but its not what I think, its what do YOU think. If this frame won't meet your needs, then you must return it. Once the stress is behind you, by all means visit with Chris, your PT, Davidson, etc. Listen to recommendations. The fact that trek is happy with Chris is important, the fact that your husband is happy with Davidson is important too. Because many so-called professionals are lousy at customer service and fitting petite women.

[KnottedYet]

The fact that trek is happy with Chris is important, the fact that your husband is happy with Davidson is important too. Because many so-called professionals are lousy at customer service and fitting petite women.

Chris has a loyal following in the SF Bay area among women for a reason. He is NOT like Mr. DumpsterDiver. He's a bike geek, a real nice HUGE nerd who loves bikes. He treats women like cyclists, not like easy-marks for poor service.

He got Trek onto the bike of her dreams, and she's TINY. He fussed and fiddled with that bike until it fit her so perfectly that she can do the AIDS rides multiple times!

If Mondonico cannot make a brand new frame to meet your needs, Chris will tell you so. He won't "bend the truth" just to make a sale like Mr. Dumpster.

[wannaduacentury]

he's the owner
here's his signature line. oh yeah. and he never sent me a bill of sale (i paid with visa, but no receipt!)

Alex Stanek
Owner - Manager - Famous Bike Fitter - Mechanic - Gopher - Custodian - Wheel Builder
Training Wheel Installer - Accountant - Marketing Director - Dumpster Cleaner!
Smart Cycles, Inc.
303 Strawberry Hill Ave
Norwalk, CT 06851
203-831-9144
203-831-9129 Fax

Can you look at your card statement on when the sale went thru- then you can contact the cc company and complain about the purchase to them-incl the no receipt thingy. I hate you're going through all of this. He better start making that receipt. and get the bike you want too.

[mimitabby]

Can you look at your card statement on when the sale went thru- then you can contact the cc company and complain about the purchase to them-incl the no receipt thingy. I hate you're going through all of this. He better start making that receipt. and get the bike you want too.

Oh yes, i have the statement right here, that is not a problem.
At least I have a nice bike I can ride, my Bianchi, while I wait.

[Bad JuJu]

Well, the whole ordeal just sucks, Mimi. I have nothing to add to all the sage advice already provided, but just wanted to add my bit of encouragement for when you return the bike. It certainly will be uncomfortable, but that'll be temporary, and once it's behind you, it sounds like you now have a line on a responsible LBS that will help you get what you really need and want in a bike.
Good luck, and stand your ground!

[xeney]

Smart Cycles in Norwalk, CT? Ha. I just looked at their website ... he's got a steel '06 Bianchi Veloce on "close-out." It appears to be stock; the components listed are exactly what Bianchi's website has listed for that bike for '06. But Bianchi has the list price at $1,699. His bargain price: "Reg: $2299.99, Closeout: $1899.99!"

I am thinking this is not a guy to do business with.

[KayTee]

I have nothing helpful to add either, Mimi, except to beam you more support for when you go to return it. Whew, I feel your pain. This really bites.

[Bikingmomof3]

Mimi,
I ma just catching up on threads. I am so sorry you are going through this. it sounds as though have have received brilliant advice. I have nothing more to add other than my support.

[mimitabby]

Mimi,
I ma just catching up on threads. I am so sorry you are going through this. it sounds as though have have received brilliant advice. I have nothing more to add other than my support.

Yeah, some of these gals have better advice than my lawyer!
:D :D :D

[KnottedYet]

Just don't let Mr. Dumpster sour you on Mondonicos. He is the problem, not Mondonico.

[sbctwin]

Many years ago, I paid in full, a lifetime membership to a new gym that was opening up in the town I used to live in. I paid in advance for this "great deal". The gym was suppose to open within 3 months of when I paid. I always pay my Visa balance in full each month...Well, month 1 passed and the gym didn't open, month 2 passed...progress on the gym, but still not open and in month 3, no gym, no one even working on the building. On month 4 I received a letter that the owners went into bankruptcy and that they would repay me my $399, at $10 a month until the balance was paid. I called my Visa company and told them and they credited my $399 and said that is what they are there for. Though this was at least 20 years ago, the policy at that time was customer satisfaction. I would give your credit card company a call and get their advice.

[Trek420]

Remember, if you get a Mondonico from Chris like Trek did, it will be custom made for you with all your specifications (room for fenders, etc like Trisk says); rather than a modified existing frame like Mr. DumpsterDiver is trying to shove off on you.

It will take longer, but might be worth it.

Knot necessarily, Knott. :) You can get a Mondonico or Torelli off the rack so to speak. I went full custom route because at the time i was looking for a bike Antonio the builder just happened to be in town. So why not get measured and get the custom build at no extra cost?

Otherwise I would have bought the closest frame I could and had Chris fit me.

There's been a lot of good advice on this thread but folks if you have a bike shop you love and a good wench oops, I mean wrench ;) :rolleyes: :cool: treasure them :o bake cookies, write them into your will, send flowers....good service is so important in this sport and apparently.....it's hard to find.

I feel very lucky after reading this to have several excellent shops in my area and two local ones I particularly like.

It's not the fancy custom build, over the years Chris has saved me the cost of my bike with his good sound advice: minor adjustments where I know others would sell me a new bike, his "sure, you could do this, but this is better and less expensive" approach.

And he treats my commuter with the same care as my road bike, I see he does the same for others.

[caligurl]

mimi.... i'm sorry to hear you are going through this.... but you were SO smart to pay with a credit card! i made the mistake of trying to be nice and save margo money when i was going to get a a custom from her..... so i had no protection and never did get all my money back from the useless twit! UGH!

good luck! (and definitely use the credit card company.... they can be VERY helpful!!!!)

[Triskeliongirl]

.... but you were SO smart to pay with a credit card! i made the mistake of trying to be nice and save margo money when i was going to get a a custom from her..... so i had no protection and never did get all my money back from the useless twit! UGH!

Could you please expand? Who is Margo, just to save us from making the same mistake.

[Kathi]

Mimi,

Sorry about your experience. I looked at the shops website and I have to wonder if these bikes are so special why are they being mass marketed through dealers on the internet? For example, if you look at Serotta and Seven's website, you either deal with the company directly or go to a bike shop. Many companies, Trek for one, will not sell bikes over the internet or allow the shop to ship them to another location.

Two other points, when I got my custom frame, the fit technician remeasured me, even though I had my old frame refit, it was perfect and right there in front of us. Also, they only asked for a deposit and I did not make final payment until the bike was built and I was able to ride it and was happy with it. If there were any issues I could have refused final payment until the issues were resolved.

I agree with those who posted on this forum, find a shop you trust, let them be your guide and you'll have a wonderful bike that you will love and that will last for years.

[mimitabby]

Well, this morning I composed a letter and sent it to my lawyer, who rewrote it, making me sound brilliant. I am going to ask for my money back & ask him to send me a return authorization.

I then went to the shop that built my husband's bike (Elliott Bay Bike) and let him see the frame.

He said; "well, you got a nice race bike" He showed me how even if they had put brazeons where you need them for fenders, that there was not enough clearance anyway between the back of the seat tube and the rear tire. He then took me all around his shop (which is filled with race bikes, custom bikes, cyclocross bikes and antiques) and showed me how some bikes have barely a finger's clearance there and others have 3 fingers clearance (what you need for fenders)
He laughed when he saw the forks, again he said they were great, but not for folks that might want fatter tires and fenders. So that sort of clinched it for me. He did explain that there was not an Italian bike on the market that was made the way I want. (and he's right, I've been looking!) and it's not like HE doesn't like Italian bikes. He has a big assortment of Colnago's Masi's and Bianchi's. He likes Italian bikes. They just don't make them for us webbed footed Seattle folks. So now I'm going to send my polite, succinct letter to smart cycle and hope that he is reasonable and takes the bike back without me having to use force (credit card, etc)
thanks all, I'll let you know.

[KnottedYet]

Not that I'm saying a custom Mondonico couldn't do this but...

Flosshilde-the-Waterford-Cyclocross has *easily* 3 fingers space in the front fork and the back. (that's why her head tube is so darn short!)

Good luck with Mr. Lying-thru-his-teeth-Dumpster!

[mimitabby]

Not that I'm saying a custom Mondonico couldn't do this but...

Flosshilde-the-Waterford-Cyclocross has *easily* 3 fingers space in the front fork and the back. (that's why her head tube is so darn short!)

Knot, Waterfords are really one of the nicest bikes around! What kind of fork do you have on yours?

[snapdragen]

Mimi - don't wait to long, you have a limited amount of time to contest a charge on your cc bill.

[KnottedYet]

Whatever came on the X-12 in 1997. Steel.

Waterford's current cyclocross have different numbers. I think X-22 and X-14. http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/designs/x.php

It wouldn't hurt to go to the Waterford owners forum and start a thread. There is at least one Waterford dude on there who answers questions. http://www.waterfordbikes.com/board/viewforum.php?f=1

[mimitabby]

Snap, I'm not waiting. THe bike came friday, I sent the letter 10 minutes ago
and Tomorrow morning, I will call the credit union. (I'm not very good at waiting, you might have noticed by now.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Waterford will make you a custom bike fairly quickly, and they can build fender clearance and make other fit adjustments. They are GOOD bikes, and I have been reading some recent reports from very happy customers about their attentiveness to getting your bike exactly the way you want it.
Rivendells ALWAYS have fat tire/fender clearance. But their customs have a 2 year wait list. But they do have stock bikes for various uses, including road, touring, and cyclocross. My Rambouillet is their road/litetouring model. Their Bleriot is a less expensive version of the Rambouillet. Veronica has a beautiful red Legolas cyclocross bike from them.

[mimitabby]

I'm going to pay a 10% restocking fee instead of a 25% one.
and he'll refund everything else.
Buyer beware.

I'll let you know when the charges show up paid back.
It's so good to have friends, thanks all.

[Bruno28]

Mimi - sorry you had such a bad experience after waiting so long.

The restocking fee sounds like a rip off but maybe you just want to walk away from the thing rather than have a fight with the guy.

[mimitabby]

Bruno,
you are exactly right. I know he can be nasty, I want to avoid all of that!

[Kathi]

Have you thought of reporting him to the Better Business Bureau? If he's a member and you threaten to report him he might reconsider the 10% restocking fee.

[Kathi]

I agree, for $15 I'd let it go too. I hope your next experience is better.

I have a male friend that wants to order a bike from "Bikes direct":eek:

[wannaduacentury]

Have you thought of reporting him to the Better Business Bureau? If he's a member and you threaten to report him he might reconsider the 10% restocking fee.

Good idea, I'd report him anyway, bikes aren't cheap and customer service should match the product, actually exceed it. I know, easier said.

[snapdragen]

Wait 'til it's all over; the bike is returned and you have your refund. Then report him.

[Starfish]

Yeah, wait until you are all done with him, and then report him. Might save some other person (who isn't on TE!) what you have gone through.

[mimitabby]

I just wrapped that thing better than it was wrapped when I got it.
He said he'd reject it if he could shake it and anything inside moved.
It's bubble wrapped, plastic wrapped, taped, and then in a box filled with newspapers. the UPS guy shook it and said it was fine. I have the shipping number. After the jackazz told me he would pay shipping, I asked him how that would work. Just call in a pickup he said. Instead i went to a very close UPS
store. guess what. He has to send me a label BEFORE they'll take my box.
Result? I paid for shipping. I'm going to write to HIM again and ask HIM for more information? and then wait for HIM to send me a #$!@ label?
NOT.

and yes, i will definitely definitely report him all over the place.

[salsabike]

Excellent work, Mimi. Get the refund and leave him behind you.

[indysteel]

Mimi, what a nightmare. My blood is boiling just reading your posts. I applaud you for standing up to him (although I think the 10% restocking fee is just all kinds of wrong). What really infuriates me is that he had the nerve to jump down your throat with that previous email only to send you a bike that was far from what you were expecting. What a world class a-hole.

I'm not very patient either so I'm really sorry that you're back to square one. Hopefully, though, you'll get the bike of your dreams the second time around. Please keep us posted.

Kate

[mimitabby]

Thanks Kate. I think I have to modify my dreams a little. I only know of one
modern Italian bike builder who MIGHT be able to build me a bike, and I end up in the same place I am now. He's in Italy, I'm here. I want to meet the guy, look him in the eye.
You know?
I might just have to go with a great Northwest Builder instead.
But I have lots of time (not lots of patience) because my Bianchi is serving me well.. and bike expo is NEXT WEEKEND!

[Triskeliongirl]

I might just have to go with a great Northwest Builder instead.

You know Mimi, it could be much worse. Most of us don't have 'great builders' in our backyards. You seem to have a *selection* of local custom builders, so you have to be careful in weighing advice from folks that don't have that luxury. Another advantage of going local is they will better understand your interest in a bike that is fast AND accomodates fenders and wider tires. Where I live you would be told it can't be done. Where you live its de rigeur. Enjoy the bicycle show. I think that should be a great start. Enjoy your veloce, and just give yourself some time to figure out what YOU want your dream bike to do. A funny story on the Italian builder thing. When I got my custom orthopaedic crank set in california, I mentioned to him my idea to bring it to Italy on my next trip to europe, walk into a framebuiders shop, and tell him "Build me a bike around this" you know, like the faucet commercials. While I was half way joking I was half way serious, and he told me in no uncertain terms what a bad idea that was. First of all, you need to be able to communicate with your frame builder. Secondly their philosphy is very different. They are steeped in racing culture. To them a women is a small man, and they expect her to ride a racing bike in a deep aero tuck. They won't use wheels smaller than 700c, etc. He said even he wouldn't build me a bike cuz he is in CA and I live in TX. The crank set is different because I flew there to be fitted and that can be done in a day. But a bike, he would want to start by observing me ride my own bike, and then when he builds it put a fit stem on, and again observe me riding it, etc. as he tweaked it. Things that can only be done LOCALLY. So yes Mimi, I strongly support your decision to go LOCAL.

[mimitabby]

Trisk, I am fluent in Italian, and after reading two italian books on bicycling, I think i know their bike lingo okay too.
So don't you go trampling on my pipe dreams, okay?

(having said that, I'm not likely to buy an italian bike on my next trip... but you NEVER KNOW :p )

[KnottedYet]

My "pipe" dreams all involve Reynolds steel.... :D

(when does a "tube" become a "pipe" anyway? And what about "pipettes"?)

[mimitabby]

and who is this Reynolds person anyway?
no kidding, Steel is the only way for me

[KnottedYet]

and who is this Reynolds person anyway?


LOL! Mimi, you are a hoot!:D Can't wait to see you at the Bike Expo!

[mimitabby]

come early on sunday..
darn I was hoping that you were going toanswer my question.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Mimi, I know it's been awful for you....but it could have been way worse too. I've heard stories of people who waited YEARS for their custom frame- and when it came it was all wrong. :( :( Happily you only lost a couple of months in the timeline of life on this project, right? And now you have added experience and knowledge that will ensure everything comes out right this next time.

I am curious, however....I certainly understand the wanting a steel bike (steel rools). But why exactly is it that you want an Italian frame? What is it specifically about Italian frames that you can't get in other frames?

[mimitabby]

Lisa
there is a considerable romance surrounding old world Italian craftsmanship.
Take a simple thing, like a hook to hang your clothes on, or a plate, or a knife.
It's not enough to make something functional, it must also be sublime and beautiful. The knife will have a beautiful line to it, and maybe a handmade design. The hook might have a fleur di lis on the top of it, and it will be strong enough to hold your painting.
Take Campagnolo. These campy parts are made with elegance. They are designed beautifully, and unlike shimano parts, most of them can be rebuilt.
(ask Deb about this )
Clunky is the opposite of Italian. The lines are sweet, they are well made, and for the most part,they are practical.

Now for the downside of Italian craftmanship. Since they are very much in
demand and they HAVE been doing this for hundreds of years, they are the experts, and they are not going to take too well to suggestions.

I have spoken to various LBs's about the Bianchi line for example. I ask them
don't you ever suggest to these guys that we need space for fenders?
I get eye rolls.

so that's the conundrum. I guess when I move to Italy I will buy an Italian bike because it will be adapted to the climate.

So Lisa, does that make sense?
And who pray tell set the standard for the Violin? It wasn't someone from
(add random country here) it was an Italian.

[mimitabby]

When people with lots of bucks buy a Ferrari or a Lamburghini, no one
says "why Italian?"

They know.

[Bluetree]

My weakness is for Italian shoes.

Oh, and a certain young climber recently signed to the Discovery team...:rolleyes:

[indysteel]

Mimi, if you do go with a local builder please let me know what you think of the process. My dream, assuming I keep riding, is to eventually have a custom steel bike. My fantasy is not Italian-specific, but I agree that there is something very beautiful about steel and that the Italians have been doing it beautifully for a long, long time.

Admittedly, I love the cache of custom steel, but I also know--after spending a lot of time trying to tweak the fit of my Bianchi--that it's likely the only way to get a bike that really fits me. Unfortunately, I will likely have to work with a builder over the phone. People like Carl Strong have wonderful reputations for walking you through the process. There are also builders like Serotta, Waterford and IF that have reps here in Indianapolis that do the fittings. Either way, it will require a leap of faith.

Anyway, good luck with it all.

Kate

[KnottedYet]

Mmmmm.... Waterford.....:D
www.waterfordbikes.com

Reynolds steel (Waterford's rep Dave Hellekson told me Flossie was made of Reynolds 753 when he gave me her history)
Scroll down a little, and you'll find a nice summary of some of the Reynolds bike tubing.
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/JACKSON-HOME.htm

Mimi, I totally understand wanting the Italian bike. It's the same (but different) as how I felt about my search for my road bike. And then Flosshilde appeared! Miracles never cease...

Your bike is out there, and you will find it.

I'm just sorry Mr. Dumpster pimped that poor innocent Mondonico.

[spokewench]

Chris has a loyal following in the SF Bay area among women for a reason. He is NOT like Mr. DumpsterDiver. He's a bike geek, a real nice HUGE nerd who loves bikes. He treats women like cyclists, not like easy-marks for poor service.

He got Trek onto the bike of her dreams, and she's TINY. He fussed and fiddled with that bike until it fit her so perfectly that she can do the AIDS rides multiple times!

If Mondonico cannot make a brand new frame to meet your needs, Chris will tell you so. He won't "bend the truth" just to make a sale like Mr. Dumpster.


Chris Robinson is the best bike shop owner that I have ever known. He used to live in my house when he was getting his shop started. He is honest, smart, knowledgeable and will be helpful at all times. He is and was a friend obviously when we lived in California. I would recommend his bike knowledge and honesty to anyone. He will be able to answer your questions and if he can't he will find out.

Now, yes, he might be a big huge bike nerd now as Knotted said, BUT I remember him when he was just finishing being a VERY GOOD RACER and deciding to open his shop, and he was nowhere near as big. That's what a bike shop will do to you. He is knowledgeable in all areas of cycling.

[KnottedYet]

Ooops! I didn't mean "huge" in the physical sense, I meant "huge" in the bike-nerd/loves-bikes sense.:o

(it was a compliment, as nerds and geeks are very cool in my worldview)

[mimitabby]

Ooops! I didn't mean "huge" in the physical sense, I meant "huge" in the bike-nerd/loves-bikes sense.:o

LOL ah... the visuals...:D :cool:

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

So Lisa, does that make sense?


Well, it makes sense to me in certain ways, but maybe not in others. But that's OKAY- we all have our own special preferences, and that's good! I hope you will figure out what to do and that you wind up with a bike that truly suits you in every way- you DESERVE it!! :) :)

[Triskeliongirl]

Hey Mimi- just to have closure did the bike make it back safely, and has your credit card been credited yet? Just let us know when its all straightened out. What about the wheels? Were you able to stop the order or had he already started building them? -e

[silver]

Mimi, if you do go with a local builder please let me know what you think of the process. My dream, assuming I keep riding, is to eventually have a custom steel bike. My fantasy is not Italian-specific, but I agree that there is something very beautiful about steel and that the Italians have been doing it beautifully for a long, long time.

Admittedly, I love the cache of custom steel, but I also know--after spending a lot of time trying to tweak the fit of my Bianchi--that it's likely the only way to get a bike that really fits me. Unfortunately, I will likely have to work with a builder over the phone. People like Carl Strong have wonderful reputations for walking you through the process. There are also builders like Serotta, Waterford and IF that have reps here in Indianapolis that do the fittings. Either way, it will require a leap of faith.

Anyway, good luck with it all.

Kate

Hey, Kate, do you know about Spicer here in Evansville? I'm pretty sure that they will build you a steel one. A fellow in my team just got one built there. He's probably 6'8" they built him a 65cm. But I'm pretty sure his is aluminum.

http://www.spicercycles.com/index.cgi

[mimitabby]

I am still waiting. What I know is that he DID receive the frame and "accepted it" but no credit to my visa yet.

[indysteel]

Hey, Kate, do you know about Spicer here in Evansville? I'm pretty sure that they will build you a steel one. A fellow in my team just got one built there. He's probably 6'8" they built him a 65cm. But I'm pretty sure his is aluminum.

http://www.spicercycles.com/index.cgi

Silver, thanks for the recommendation. I'll take a look at that link. On while we're on the subject, there's an interesting discussion right now on roadbikereview.com about building a custom bike. You'll have to register if you haven't already to read it, but it is interesting....

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=88441