Custom wheels.....where to start?

[indysteel]

So I posted a question yesterday about whether I should buy a pair of Campy Zondas on sale at Lickbike.com. After talking with them and doing some further thinking/reading, I'd really like to explore the world of handbuilt wheels. I have some feel for what options are out there, but it's kind of overwhelming. I am leaning toward Mike Garica or Gravywheels as the builder, although there are a couple of others that come highly recommended. More fundamentally, however, I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for in a wheelset because I'm not entirely sure of the various "ride qualities" that are even possible.

I want a good "all-around wheel." I don't race, but I would love some wheels that accelerate quickly and stay up to speed. I weigh between 115 and 118 most days and could easily go with a a low-spoke count, especially since most of the roads I ride are in decent shape. Climbing (although I'm working on it) is not my strength, but I'm not sure I really want a wheel built specifically for climbing since most of my riding is done on the flats. As a small rider, I am easily affected by crosswinds and after demo-ing some Mavic Ksyrium SL with relatively wide, bladed spokes, I know that's not the way to go. My favorite ride is a long ride so comfort is also an issue, but is that driven more by the wheels or by the tires and tire pressure? Oh, and I'd like keep the cost at or below $500.

So, does anybody have any advice or words of wisdom/caution? I'm prepared to take my time with this decision but I find that the less I'm riding because of the weather, the stronger the itch to upgrade!

Thanks.

Kate

[Kathi]

Call Jeremy at 505-699-430. He built my wheelset for my Serotta. He understood my needs, much like yours, and built me a nice wheelset for a 105lb rider.

The shop is in Santa Fe, NM.

My SO is so impressed with how my hill climbing and speed improved that he ordered a set of wheels for himself!

[Kathi]

I can post pics of the wheelet, if you want.

[spokewench]

Ask around of cyclists in your area. There is usually a shop that has someone who does a really good job on wheels. Go talk to them. They can lead you in the correct direction. By your email, you have thought about all the things that you need to be be able to voice what you want.

Yes, Mavic SSL's are difficult to ride in a cross wind! I live in Flagstaff, ARizona where it is really windy most of the time ESPECIALLY IN THE SPRING! When I first started riding my very light Giant TCR with Mavic Ksyrium SSL's, it took me a while to get more used to the fact that I'm really light on that bike and the wheels really catch the wind! Sometimes, it still takes me for a ride!

[indysteel]

Thanks Kathi. I remember when you posted info about your Serotta and your wheels but was having trouble locating those old posts. I'd love to see pics. How much did they cost if I may ask?

I will ask around to see who does it locally. I know the LBS where I got my bike builds wheels, but I think I'd rather have someone who's a full-time builder do them.

[Cassandra_Cain]

Call Jeremy at 505-699-430. He built my wheelset for my Serotta. He understood my needs, much like yours, and built me a nice wheelset for a 105lb rider.

The shop is in Santa Fe, NM.

My SO is so impressed with how my hill climbing and speed improved that he ordered a set of wheels for himself!

Hey that's my town :)

So if Indy is willing to bribe me, (with something like a TE coupon! j/k! :D ), then I'll go talk to Jeremy myself and put in a good word. :)

[SadieKate]

John Ackley of www.bfwg.net has built 3 sets of our wheels. I just got the most recent set because the wheels on one of my roadbikes were beating the crud out of me and I was bouncing around too much on the descents -- and I weigh 135 lbs.

Topolinos are known for their silky smooth ride - laterally stiff but ever so comfy on rough roads. Anyway, I told John that I had Topos on another bike and wanted to get a ride much like them or another set of handbuilt Mavic Open Pro/Chorus wheels. I set a high standard and, boy, did he deliver.

These are the specs:
Here's the down-low on the wheels you ordered for Sarah:
Velocity AeroHead rims (28 hole OC rear / 24 hole front), black ano with machined sidewalls
Black H1 hubs by White Industries
Black CX-Ray spokes by Sapim, with silver alloy nipples
Velocity Veloplugs
Wheels will be built 2-cross, front and rear

I can say enough about his wheelbuilding skills or his business practices and communication. Absolutely superb. I have a set of his wheels on an XC mtbike and they took some abuse at Moab this summer with flying colors. Frankly, I think Gravy's prices are high based his name factor. I got a quote from him for mtb wheels last year and was rather blown away. There are equally superb wheelbuilders out there.

[SadieKate]

Kate, some technical info also:

Low profile rims produce a less harsh ride - Mavic Open Pro is probably the best known for this.

Offcenter (OC) rims offer more strength because it allows more equal tensioning of the spokes from side to side. Velocity Aerohead OC are well known for this combined with a low profile.

Hubs - a difference in flange height from drive side to non-drive side helps with spoke tensioning. That's why White Industries hubs get such great reviews and wheelbuilders love them.

Spokes - it not just the number. The number of cross, the butting, the weight of the spoke, etc., come into play. Radial spoking of a front wheel can produce a very harsh ride.

Hope this helps.

[DebW]

Velocity plugs


Plugs? What's this?

I'll admit that every wheel I've ever built has been 36 hole and 3-cross, except for tandems or loaded tourers which might get 40 hole and 4 cross. I need to try something new someday.

White Industries H1 hub: the photo on their web page looks like this hub requires minimal, if any, dishing because the non-drive side flange is set in almost as much as the drive side flange. True? Not sure which would be stronger: minimizing the dish, or putting the flange as far out as possible.

I was reading a wheel building manual recent which highly recommended butted spokes for their stretching properties.

[SadieKate]

Whoops, they're actually called Veloplugs.

http://www.veloplug.com/

I was really impressed with how easily the tires mounted on the new wheels because there was more space for the tire bead. Of course, that 5 grams of weight is ever so critical also.

[SadieKate]

White Industries H1 hub: the photo on their web page looks like this hub requires minimal, if any, dishing because the non-drive side flange is set in almost as much as the drive side flange. True? Not sure which would be stronger: minimizing the dish, or putting the flange as far out as possible.

I was reading a wheel building manual recent which highly recommended butted spokes for their stretching properties.

Deb, John gives a very succinct explanation about the flanges on his product page. Read the paragraph for race wheels. http://www.bfwg.net/BFWG/Products.html

Yes, butted spokes can be much cushier than straight gauge because of that elasticity. The spokes on my cross bike are straight gauge. Ow, ow, ow. Of course, they were built for the average consumer who weights more than I do.

[indysteel]

Sadie Kate, great info. Thanks so much. I've been reading reviews of various hubs and rims. I keep coming back to Velocity Aerohead/Velocity Aerohead OC. That's actually what Robin at Lickbike recommended. I haven't read up on White Industries' hubs but will. Actually, I like the sound of your build quite a bit! As you might guess, I get beat up on rough roads and would love to a wheel that softens the blow. What tires are you using? Also, how did you decide between a 2x and 3x spoke pattern? Is it a function of your size and weight?

Maybe you can explain to me why Robin suggested that I use Shimano Ultegra hubs. In part, he was trying to get me into a wheel for about $400, but he also said something about Campy changing their hubs for 2007. I wasn't following him and stupidly didn't ask him to clarify. I run Campy on my bike and, while he indicated that it wouldn't be a problem to run a Shimano cassette, it is a bit of a sacrilege to me! In any event, it seems like there are hubs out there that I'd prefer over Shimano.

Kate

[SadieKate]

I went with the cross pattern John suggested. How's that for technical? Having 2 sets of wheels from him, I trusted what he was saying. I ride on a lot of chipseal and rural farm roads, plus California sends all its road repair tax money to SoCal so you can imagine what the roads are like in NoCal.

John had me take out the bike for which I wanted new wheels and swap around wheel sets to make sure that I wasn't feeling the ride harshness in the frame as this could have actually been the real cause of my unhappiness. There were immediate and noticeable differences with the Topos on the bike. Therefore, I knew new wheels would change the ride.

There are conversion kits to use Shimano on Campy-compatible hubs but not vice versa (I think I have this right). If you don't see ever using Shimano on these wheels, I don't know why Robin would recommend Ultegra except to meet a price point or if he doesn't like the new hubs from Campy. So go back and ask.

My wheels fall into 2 categories: 1) built by a full time master wheelbuilder and have never needed additional work and 2) those that were NOT built by a full time master wheelbuilder and with the exception of my Topos 100% have needed more work. Therefore, I do like the fact that you want someone who is a fulltime wheelbuilder. There are those that say "anyone can build a wheel" but I want a master craftsman building the wheels that I'm descending on at 45+ mph. A superbly built set of wheels for someone our size shouldn't go out of true forever and a day. I have wheels that are 25 years old and still perfectly true - because a truly skilled builder attuned to every nuance crafted them; wheelbuilding can be elevated to an art.

Your wheelbuilder of choice should be able to articulate to you why s/he is recommending a particular build - and explain it to you in English. Ask lots of questions until it makes sense or go find another builder.

[indysteel]

Ooooh. I just took a look at White Industries' hubs. Very, very pretty. Not that pretty is everything, but still....

[SadieKate]

WI hubs definitely have a high drool factor rating. Glad to see you have excellent taste.:p

[Kathi]

Thanks Kathi. I remember when you posted info about your Serotta and your wheels but was having trouble locating those old posts. I'd love to see pics. How much did they cost if I may ask?

I will ask around to see who does it locally. I know the LBS where I got my bike builds wheels, but I think I'd rather have someone who's a full-time builder do them.

Jeremy is well known by the guys on the Serotta forum. He often posts there. My wheelset weighs 1185 grms., less the skewers, the rear hub is made by Tune and the front hub is American Classic. Jeremy rebuilt the AC hub to his specifications. We went with the AC on front because of its light weight.

My spokes are Sapim's, 20 f, 24 r. I rode the bike in 30 mph crosswinds in N. Dakota and got some pull but nothing like I got when I had Mavic Open Pros.

The wheelset was about $800 with shipping but the cost was well worth it for the comfortable ride I get. When we rode Cycle North Carolina this fall we had some nasty chip n seal surfaces. Most riders slowed down but I didn't need to slow my pace at all. I've ridden lots of Indiana roads and this surface was as bad or worse.

I've got almost 2,000 miles on my bike and no issues so far with the wheels.

Here's pics.

[Kathi]

Here's another picture of the Tune hub. These hubs spin a lot nicer than the Campy Records that I had on the Open Pros.

[indysteel]

Ladies, thanks for your help. In a fit of upgraditis, I called Troy and Ligero Wheelworks in TN this afternoon. His name comes up a lot as being a really good builder. He COULD NOT have been any nicer or more helpful. It was a very easy process.

So on to the build:

Velocity Aerohead/Aerohead OC silver rims
WI hubs (sweet)
Black Sapim butted spokes, 24 2x front, 28 3x rear (driveside) and 2x nondriveside

He expects them to weigh in at just under 1400 grams. All for just under $500. I feel really extravagent right now, but I'm also really happy. I could not buy factory wheels at that weight for that price. I should have them by the end of next week, although I don't plan on riding them until Spring.

Thanks again,

Kate

[SadieKate]

Nice fit! :p

Be sure to get those veloplugs for 30 grams of weight savings! :rolleyes: Actually the ease of tire mounting makes them worth it.

[roguedog]

Wow. I learned a lot in this thread. Had no idea wheels were so or can be so customized or that there are such a thing as master craftsmen(people?) who can do just this for a living.

Very cool..

[Trek420]

r'dog, my LBS is not far from you is aptly named Robinson Wheel Works.

www.robinsonww.com

[roguedog]

huh.. i always thought you went to eden cycles... will take a look at the link.. thanks. i take it they do good wheel work?

[Mimosa]

I have one set of custom build wheels, the rim is Mavic CPX33 and some reinforced round spokes on shimano ultegra hubs.

These things stay true no mather how deep the hole in the road is. These are strong wheels, have a bit of aero look, maybe not the lightest but very strong.

Here are some reviews (http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/rims/mavic-inc/PRD_28209_2488crx.aspx#reviews)

And I used the custom wheels of excel sports (http://www.excelsports.com/wheel.asp) to see what they cost and in the end it said that it was about $400 (for a whole set).

When you have a campa group on your bike the stick with a campa hub (no matter what people say). If you don't you could run the risk that shifting of gears becomes hell. And the quality of a campa hub is said to be better then that of a shimano hub, though the pice if often higher.

[indysteel]

Kathi, those are gorgeous (and light) wheels. I really like the Tune hub.

I think I'll be happy with Troy's build and am really excited about them. Assuming I love 'em like I think I will, I'm going to start preaching to people about custom wheels. They just seem to be the way to go from just about every perspective--price, serviceability, performance.

[Trek420]

roguedog "huh.. i always thought you went to eden cycles..."

huh? I go to Eden for socks, only for socks. They have the socks I like but Chris and Tim are my guys (also Bikerzs and Spazzdogs and...)

The website is not much to see but he is great. And they treat women very well, we've nominated them as honorary gals.

"i take it they do good wheel work?"

and bike fit and complete bikes and anything....tell 'em that gal on a plum Mondonico sentca' :p

[indysteel]

SadieKate, thanks for reminding me about the Veloplugs. I asked Troy about it this morning, and he confirmed that that's what he will be using.

Do you find the WI hubs to be noisey? If so, does it bother you at all? Also, what brand skewers do you use? I don't want to break the bank buying really light skewers since they don't affect rotational weight as much as, say, the rimbs, but I don't want to nullify the benefits of lighter wheels by buying "clunkers" either. Any thoughts?

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in on this thread and for your recommendations. Building these wheels was almost as much fun as getting the bike!

I ran into cyclist friend of mine last night at the Y and told him about my wheels. He got really excited when I told him that I was using WI hubs! I think he was impressed!

Kate

[SadieKate]

Bubba has Campy QRs on his Seven with silver WI hubs. I have FSA on my Kelly that has black WI hubs (the wheels spec'd above). My Titus mtb has silver WI hubs and has black Salsa skewers. American Classic used to make some pretty QRs. You might take a look at those (and laugh at their anniversary seatpost which must have been designed during happy hour).

I look for a quality skewer that completes "the look." They have to look right with the whole ensemble and come from a reputable manufacturer.

[indysteel]

Since so many of you helped me with my decision to buy custom wheels, I wanted to (finally) give you a ride report. After two months of lousy weather here in Indiana, I took my first test drive on Sunday.

After 40 wonderful miles, I'm in love. The wheels totally exceeded my expectations. The ride is now extremely plush, which is what I wanted most out of them. I used to feel beat up on my Mavics--even at lower psi--but these were like riding on butter. The White Industries hubs spin up very quickly and stay there. I found myself really having to watch it in our paceline.

It's hard to say what effect, if any, the new wheels have on climbs. I felt stronger, but that may have more to do with all the spinning and yoga I've been doing this winter. I did lose about 2 1/2 pounds off the bike from changing out the wheels, tires, tubes and cassette. Either way, the whole ride was sublime from beginning to end. I think the wheels were a great investment. For anyone out there, thinking of going the handbuilt route, I highly recommend it. From a cost and quality standpoint, they just make sense.

Kate

[SadieKate]

Fabulous! Glad you're happy.

[indysteel]

Fabulous! Glad you're happy.

Thanks Sadie Kate. Since your Velocity/WI wheels are very similar, I think you know what I'm talking about when I say the ride is smooth. Who knew that roughly 1400 grams of metal could make that big of a difference?

[SadieKate]

After I posted I began musing. Over the last couple of years I really did myself a disservice. I've always been a better descending mountain biking than road riding, but then I built up a new bike just for climbing the big hills in California. I became a horrible road descender while my mtnbiking stayed the same. I couldn't figure out what was going on in my head.

Last fall yellow came to visit and I loaned her this bike. She commented that she could feel every single little bump in the road. I rode my Litespeed Tuscany with Topolino wheels that same day and suddenly realized I was descending like the old days - and felt rock solid on the steepest and windiest section. Well, duh! It's either a too stiff frame or harsh, rigid wheels. I did a little swapping of wheels and ruled out the frame. It was the wheels with aero rims (low profile but still aero shape) and radial-laced bladed aluminum spokes. Maybe great for someone 170 lbs or more, but not me.

So I asked Santa for the WI/Velocity wheels. My descending confidence is making a huge comeback. This winter I caught up to someone on a long descent on her home turf (and unfamiliar to me) and yesterday I descended as fast (adjusted for weight) as my 200 lb hubby, and no one was in front to pick the line. The woman with us had a pair of very popular bladed/radial spoke wheels and said she feels bounced around on the descents at times and cross winds are a problem, "but the wheels are fast!" How fast can they be when you're slowing for descents? :rolleyes: And at 6 mph, how much benefit were they to her on the climb? None!

Long musing, but I wish the LBS would quit pushing these bladed wheels with fewer spokes and harsh rides to us small folk. One needs to be very, very sure that it's the right thing for the job. Stiff laterally is a good thing, but stiff vertically can just pound the crap out of you and decrease control over the bike.

So, I too, got to go through the learning lesson. I thought the low profile rim would make the ride OK. I did my research and everyone said for my weight they'd be great. Well, maybe if all I was doing was racing criteriums but not for much else.