Here we go again... another scandal on TDF

[Dogmama]

If I barrelled up a bunch of mountains with major epinephrine/adreniline dumps and in huge pain, wouldn't my testosterone/epitesterone levels be elevated, too?

I think they would actually be lower...

[Dogmama]

I just heard that Phonak suspended him from the team pending the outcome of the investigation. What great support (not!).

[tomgrrrl]

I think it is "routine" to suspend someone initially (meaning they just can't race until it's cleared up), part of regulations they all agree to.

That being said, I am going to withhold judgement for the time being. From what I've been able to read thus far, there are various reasons the "ratio" could be off....it's kind of appalling that there are so many unanswered questions, yet much of the media coverage assumes guilt, almost gleefully. The actually scientific explanations for all this are better left to the experts and I have a gut feeling that after the dust settles, there will be a physiological explanation for this....

I know, given all the suspensions and controversies thus far, it's easy to say he's guilty. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's a shame, that if he is cleared, that his good name may well be tainted anyway.....

[chickwhorips]

on the note about his name being tainted. i think its bad for any rider it happens to. once they are accused of doping people tend not to look at them the same. which is to bad.

[snapdragen]

From cyclingnews:
The Phonak team has confirmed the speculation that Floyd Landis returned a positive A sample after his win in stage 17 of the Tour de France. "The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI about an unusual level of Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France," said the team in a statement. "The team management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result.

"The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis to prove either that this result is coming from a natural process or that this is resulting from a mistake in the confirmation. In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear.

"If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample, the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations."

The World Anti-Doping Agency has lowered the limit for the maximum T/E level from 6:1 to 4:1. Some athletes have naturally high levels, and can prove this through a series of tests.

Then a good pal of mine (just completed RAAM) sent this to a private group I'm on:

"First thought: cortisone could cause a positive depending on test protocols. This lab is known in the science world as one that doesn't have the cleanest methodology. We know that Floyd has been receiving treatments for his necrotic hip joint; who's to say what he was getting, in what quantities, and/or what the reaction would be with his already-naturally elevated test. levels (as a function of his body's response to the race)?....

Second thought: VERY FEW WADA testosterone claims have held up under scrutiny. Anabolics show very specific markers, and most endurance atheletes who have fought charges predicated solely on elevated testosterone have won.

Opinion:

I very much want to see Floyd with a clean victory.
If he really did it, I hope he gets flushed.
If he's proven innocent, the French media and L'equipe will never let it go.
God help WADA and that fool **** Pound if this turns negative. If that's the case, I hope Floyd sues him so deep into the poor-house that he ends up living in a van down by the river.
For god's sake, if you're a pro athlete and you want to do performance enhancing drugs, get into Major League Baseball....."

My opinion - I don't think Floyd would do it, how could he face his family? Mom would bust him good.....

[maillotpois]

I got this from the ultra list I am on:

...it was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.


The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone /
Epitestosterone Ratio


By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.


Summary


Intoxicating beverages contain a number of different forms of alcohol,
the major constituent of which is ethanol. When a beverage is consumed
the ethanol content passes through the stomach wall and digestive tract
into the blood stream. Once the ethanol enters circulation it begins
to alter the bodies' biochemistry. One such reaction is to
differentially increase the rates of testosterone (T) and
epitestosterone (E) metabolism. The overall effect of this reaction is
to increase the ratio of T to E excreted in the urine.


It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E
ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in
plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints
of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the
T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.


It follows that if the effect of ethanol on T/E ratios is calculated
relative to urinary E concentrations, it can be seen that increases in
the ratio are exponential as E concentrations decrease. Individuals
with naturally low E concentrations could, therefore, experience
increases in T/E ratios of ? 940% greater than increases experienced in
an individual with normal E concentrations. Calculations estimate
that in individuals with low urinary E concentration, ratios of 17 to 1
or higher could have resulted from ethanol consumption without any
administration of exogenous T.


The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and
approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between
a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio
resulting from endogenous T administration.
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[snapdragen]

See! I told you girls! That demon alcohol will get you!

snap "carrie nation" dragen

[chickwhorips]

bf and i were joking about the whole beer thing and it having to do with the test results.
who knew it could actually have something to do with it.

[mimitabby]

oh, the pain of it! Today I attended a bike safety class that the Cascade bike club teaches (they brought it to our company) and the first thing the guy says is;
"well, I guess Floyd's out"


seems to me, a guy who can ride like that ought to have inordinate amounts of testosterone in the first place!

[Denise223]

Floyd was scheduled to appear on Leno this Friday night (7/28).

I wonder if he'll still be there? I hope so.

Denise

[SadieKate]

My first reaction to this article was that the network was overreacting but media dollars is what drives professional sports. Maybe that's what it takes. I'm pondering.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10593.0.html

[Triskeliongirl]

My understanding is the problem is not that his levels of testosterone were too high, but that the RATIO of testosterone to its precurser epitestosterone was too high in the tested sample. While its true that if one were taking testesterone, one would expect this ratio to be elevated, one would also expect the TOTAL amount of testosterone to be high yet his was in the LOW normal range, so this seems like an unfair test if the results do not consider the TOTAL amount of testosterone. I also read that he takes presicrition thyroid hormone for hypothyrodism, so who knows what the effects of cortisone, thryoid hornome, ethanol and physical stress all have on levels of epitestosterone. While I support drug testing this has turned into a wtichhunt. The 5 astana-wurth riders that knocked Vino's team out of the tour have now all been cleared. I really think the sport needs to develop more fair testing criteria, and more fair treatment of riders that are under 'suspician.' Its getting to the point where anyone can accuse any rider of doping and get the excluded from a competition. I don't think Floyd did it.

[tomgrrrl]

well said.....the testing is too complicated, in this case, to judge him this early....many factors could be involved in terms of how his body reacts to stress, the cortisone shots, etc....the sport does need to gets its act together and, maybe move the drug lab to a neutral country like Sweden ....

[mimitabby]

he's already been declared guilty and hanged by this guy:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...s/15137860.htm

ugh. don't read this article if you don't want to get more depressed.

[spokewench]

Love your RB-1 - I've got one collecting dust just like it in my basement. I'm having a hard time parting with it since it is such a GREAT BIKE!