Running and heart rate training?

[tamara_69]

I've been running a few months now, and can run 3 miles without stopping. At the end, I don't want to do more, and I'm slow, and my heart rate is WAY higher than when I cycle, like 176 or so by the end of my run. (I'm 36.) What would be the best way to condition and build mileage and get my heart rate down in a manageable range? When I cycle I have so much more control over it than when I run. I'm also concerned about too much anaerobic training, so I'm only running 2X/week, and I try not to run and cycle on consecutive days. Is this a good idea?

I have looked online for training tips and haven't been able to find much that is related to heart rate training. Any suggestions from all you experts out there?

[Grog]

I've been running a few months now, and can run 3 miles without stopping. At the end, I don't want to do more, and I'm slow, and my heart rate is WAY higher than when I cycle, like 176 or so by the end of my run. (I'm 36.) What would be the best way to condition and build mileage and get my heart rate down in a manageable range? When I cycle I have so much more control over it than when I run. I'm also concerned about too much anaerobic training, so I'm only running 2X/week, and I try not to run and cycle on consecutive days. Is this a good idea?

I had the same problem as you when I started running, i.e. difficulty to keep my heart rate under control.

I found that run/walk helped. Time is also key. Intervals training is another (and run/walk is a form of intervals training I'd say). When I started my season of more serious training on the bike, doing hard intervals, my heart rate suddently became much more manageable while running.

After all, the reason why we get better while training is through adaptation to higher demands, which happens during recovery. You want to make sure to apply this principle during specific training sessions (by doing intervals, for example, instead of keeping your HR / effort constant during a whole training) and in your general training plan (by having a progression of intensity with one week of recovery every 3-4 weeks of increased effort)...

Take this for what it's worth, I'm not an exercise specialist, just a happy practitioner!

[kaybee]

Tamara, although I'm no expert, I think Grog is right -- try the run/walk method to keep your heart rate under control, or slow way down to a jog. Personally, I use the "low-tech" training method for my running -- I just run whatever pace is comforable that day. I know you said you didn't want to add any more running days, but if you're going to get faster and build mileage, you're going to have to run more than 2 days a week. Cycling will complement your running, but to run well, you have to run. I wouldn't worry about running/cycling on consecutive days; I do it all the time. If you feel a little tired, just run/ride a little slower that day.

Good luck!

KB

[yellow]

Running with a heart rate monitor can be very, very frustrating. Been there. And yes, you will take quite a few walking breaks for a while!

A couple of things to consider. I was a runner before I was a cyclist. I cannot get my heart rate up as high on the bike for the same "level of effort" as I was when I was running and in very good shape (better than I am now). In other words, cycling seems to be easier on my cardiovascular system. Maybe something like that is happening to you (and maybe not...maybe I'm just a weirdo). Also, you didn't say how you determined your max heart rate and your effort levels, but make sure you really know what your max is before you start doing the rest of the math. And there are many different ways to "do the math"...I always used

target heart rate = [target percent (max-resting)] + resting

Example for 85% effort level target rate =[85(max-resting)] + resting

Where resting is your heart rate laying in bed in the morning, before you do much other than move your fingers & toes. This was from a running coach that I used for a very short period of time. I haven't tried it cycling.

If you want to know how to do a really simple max heart rate test, PM me.

y

[tamara_69]

Thanks, all, for your suggestions. I think I'm learning that I just need to be patient and try some new things and not worry so much about speed or distance. The real benefit is just in the enjoyment, right?

I'll try the intervals suggestions. I hate walking and running because mentally I feel like I'm giving up, but I know it will help make me stronger.

Any other suggestions you come up with will be appreciated!

[Nanci]

http://www.rrca.org/publicat/slowdown.html

TONS of ultrarunners swear by this method of training with a low heart rate.

Nanci

[traveller_62]

tamara,

first of all, congrats on your running progress!

although i understand that you can feel like walking is "giving up" it is actually a very common training technique. jeff galloway has written a lot of the run/walk method and i know plenty of people that have used his training program to get through their first marathon. here is his web site:
http://www.jeffgalloway.com/

i just bought my niece a couple of his books because she is starting her fitness program from couch potato status. it is working beautifully for her. on the opposite end of the spectrum i have a close friend who did his first Hawaii Ironman last year and he also used the run/walk method to make it through the marathon portion of that event.

as for training with heart rate monitors, check out this web site for a good "starter" article on HRM training:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...0-1046,00.html

i don't use my HRM as effectively as i could in training but i do pay close attention to that resting heart rate and find that it is a very good measure of my readiness to train hard.

you must take the automagic calculations of your target heart rate zones based on your age with a grain of salt. my heart rate is about 10 beats faster than it "should" be according to my advanced age of 44. just use the calculations as starting points and pay close attention to how you feel in different heart rate zones.

keep up the good work!

traveller

[VenusdeVelo]

I was not sure how you are calculating your heart ranges....but barring getting tested on the bike, there are a few better ways to calculate HR ranges and MHR outside "220-age" -- try the Karvonen method which takes into RHR as well. See this site for a good calculator, but if you are interested, PM me, I also have the "long-hand" calculation you can do yourself.

http://briancalkins.com/HeartRate.htm

My 220-age (I am also 44) would yield 176, however, the Karvonen method plus what I have actually seen on my Polar are a little higher than that. So even using Karvonen, they don't pre-suppose an exact MHR but if you have a good idea what that is based on your own trials, you can work backwards with the percentages and use a bit of a hybrid method for your calcs.

[ladyfish]

Karvonen seems much more realistic for me than the age subtractor method. That method always seemed too low for the max heart rate. In the target rate, I didn't even feel like I was exerting myself.

Good luck. The more you pay attention to your heart rate the more you will discover that after awhile you can tell without looking at the monitor where you are.

[yellow]

try the Karvonen method which takes into RHR as well.

I did this one and it came out 13 bpm lower than my actual! Yikes! But then again, I'm kind of a weirdo as I have a high resting and high max. Always have, probably always will.

[VenusdeVelo]

Yup, unless your textbook perfect then no method can replace actual, "what I saw on my watch", or tested numbers. It was not too far off for me, and I even had my MHR tested a few years ago. And then after a year or so, when I took up some running, my MHR hit a few beats higher yet (most likely due to te fact that even with testing, you may not hit your max in all cases, repetitive time trials and testing would be best). So I took the new max I saw occur a couple of times and re-programmed my ranges based on that. But, Karvonen is a good start for someone with no idea what their ranges are or where they should begin.

The best places for me to see a MHR are 1.) on my mtn bike on a particularly nasty climb or 2.) running (which I do not do so well at the moment).

[tamara_69]

I think the Karvonen formula is pretty close for me. Thanks for the suggestions, and help, and expertise!

Tamara

[Lise]

I'm re-upping this thread because I just got my HRM back with a new battery. Last year, when I was training for the marathon, I was so discouraged about my HR that I just stopped monitoring it at all. Over the winter, the battery died, so that was that. I kept running over the winter, but not a lot. Only 6-8 miles a week, sometimes less.

The past two weeks I've been running more, and feeling awful on my runs. Weak, slow, mentally un-tough. I know some of it was emotional, which changes, but it's so discouraging when I had built up some mileage last fall.

So today I used the HRM for the first time in probably 6 months. No wonder I feel like crud. My HR goes up above 160 very quickly. According to Polar, I shouldn't be above 150. I feel fine until about 155, so that's what I've used as my cut off. When I hit 160, I walked until it was back in the 140s. Using the "180 method" that Nanci referrenced above, my max HR should be 130! At that rate, it would be all walking! Sigh.

I'm going to give it a shot though, and go out for longer distances at a slower pace. If that means walking a lot, then I walk a lot. I really, really want to be able to run 5 miles without stopping. I ran 8K a few weeks ago, with only a walk through the water station. Heaven knows what my HR was. But I know that if I go slowly now, it will pay off with speed and endurance over the summer. Or, at least, that's what I tell myself!

[VenusdeVelo]

I started running last Fall, first time (I am a cyclist and only a runner by brute force ) to "practice" the sport for a duathlon I want to do this year. Same results as you, very discouraging. I missed alot of running over winter, the weather was horrific and no access to treadmills here. And I also had shin problems.

So I started again about a month ago. Except for some annoying little pains that subside quickly, I've been trying to be disciplined about being slow about it and it's seemed to have paid off. My last run on Friday was longer and I was able to walk less and keep my heart rate down. I have been following a plan I had found on the running boards (.pdf file attached) and if you can keep yourself to the disciplined pace, it's like building up the base you need to do in cycling before you go out and hammer. If you are like me, you just want to sprint for 2 miles first time out!! So it's almost harder to pace (walk/run combo) yourself and keep yourself in check. So worth a try, you may be able to alter it if your running base is better than what this coach assumes. I think what you are doing is likely to work!

Good luck, I feel your pain

[doc]

Tamara
A few very important points
1. The 220-age calculation is 100% useless. It is not based on any physiologic studies. Completely ignore it.

2. If you can talk while running you ARE aerobic no matter what your heart rate is. If you must breath between every word you are definitely anaerobic. (this has been extensively studied)

3. Professional VO2 and heart rate testing is the only reliable way to get your personal parameters. Your HR ranges are not going to be the same as someone elses, and will change as your fitness level changes. But it is totally unnecessary to do this unless you are racing to win.

4. HR training, while useful, is being over-emphasized in this thread. What are you shooting for? Prolonged aerobic runs? Just make sure you are able to talk the whole time.

5. It's strange, but anaerobic interval training, where you get to or near your max heart rate, (don't need to know what the number is, you can feel it.) is one of the best ways to increase your aerobic capacity. But you need to have a baseline decent aerobic status before doinng intervals.

Good luck with your training. No matter what yuor goals are.