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  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    19

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    http://http://www.rodbikes.com/artic...mpromises.html

    Just some good reading on smaller bikes, if anyone's interested. There are compromises, it can just be hard to realize it if you've never had the opportunity to ride a proportional bike, because the big names have been pushing 700s on everyone for so long just to save on production costs. I usually ride about a 47, and I'm getting 24" wheels on my next custom bike.

    http://http://www.rodbikes.com/artic...oeoverlap.html, and more reading on the subject.
    Last edited by Nandy; 01-31-2016 at 10:25 AM.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    northern Virginia
    Posts
    5,897
    Very nice! May you enjoy many happy miles together!!

    (The handlebars look very tilted -- do you find them comfortable that way?)

    - Gray 2010 carbon WSD road bike, Rivet Independence saddle
    - Red hardtail 26" aluminum mountain bike, Bontrager Evoke WSD saddle
    - Royal blue 2018 aluminum gravel bike, Rivet Pearl saddle

    Gone but not forgotten:
    - Silver 2003 aluminum road bike
    - Two awesome worn out Juliana saddles

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Concord, MA
    Posts
    13,394
    Nandy, I had 2 bikes with 650 wheels, before the ones with 700s and I honestly don't see any difference. I think the geometry of the frame makes a difference, too. My custom Guru has 700 wheels, so it wasn't any company pushing something on me. Also, I think there's a range of standover heights, even for people of the same height, as well as foot size. I have small feet and longer legs than a lot of others who are 5' 1." I am not pro or against either, but it was just a pain to get the tubes/tires I wanted for 650s and now that I use Gatorskins on both of my bikes, I am not even sure that would be an option.
    2015 Trek Silque SSL
    Specialized Oura

    2011 Guru Praemio
    Specialized Oura
    2017 Specialized Ariel Sport

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    WA State
    Posts
    4,364
    Nandy - I live in Seattle where Rodriguez bikes is. He's a 650 evangelist… He tries to put everyone on the things, even people who are fairly tall. You think we've drunk the cool aid, well yours is just a different flavor. Some of us are actually built right for the way small bikes with bigger wheels fit. I'm also like Crankin. I've small feet and proportionally longer legs for my height. I've never had issues with stand over - not even in the bad old days when bikes had straight top tubes and the smallest thing available was equivalent to todays 49cm. If they work for you, that's great, but not every smaller person suffers if they don't have them.

    I have and have used both wheel sizes. In my basement I currently have a 650 ti bike that I use as my all weather commuter and a nice carbon Amira that is has 700c wheels. Neither is any more or less comfortable than the other and neither handles much different from the other. Granted there are too many differences to attribute it to just one thing, but I have ridden both with a power meter and can definitely generate more power with the position I have on the Specialized than on the ti bike. It is a pain in the rear to get rims, tubes and especially tires, these days for the 650 wheel set - the choices are very limited and unless I have the time to special order and wait sometimes months, I usually end up with whatever is available rather than having a choice and even if I wait the choices are very limited. I have 0, zip, no toe overlap on my 700c bike. If you want to get ironic, the bike I have with the smallest wheels is the only one that I have toe overlap on - it's a kid sized cross bike that has 24" wheels. I can't put a front fender on that one as it hits my foot with even a very slight turn of the front wheel.

    As far as handling goes - I don't get the shimmies and I don't think my bikes feel twitchy. I have short arms, so I do have a fairly short stem - that goes for both the 650 and 700c bikes, *but*, I've certainly never ever had any problems keeping enough weight on the front wheel, so I don't have any squirrely handling. If anything, just because of my body shape and proportions I don't have as much weight as I'd like on the rear wheel.
    Last edited by Eden; 01-31-2016 at 04:43 PM.
    "Sharing the road means getting along, not getting ahead" - 1994 Washington State Driver's Guide

    visit my flickr stream http://flic.kr/ps/MMu5N

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    1,973
    Thanks for sharing thoughts on this bike and others.

    A couple things- NY biker- I did not notice the bars being tilted. Either the photo angle is odd or I am comfortable with the set up.

    Nandy, I couldn't access the link you posted. This bike feels comfortable- and so did my previous Ruby and I've done rides up to 210k. I also have small feet and longer legs and a really short torso. Maybe there is a custom bike out there that would be even better, but the 2011 Ruby was all I could afford and the insurance covered the replacement.

    I took her out for 48 miles Saturday with lots of climbing, and 40 miles today (mostly flat) and I'm still happy. I might even learn to like the Ruby saddle but not I'm not completely sold yet - I had an Oura before.
    2016 Specialized Ruby Comp disc - Ruby Expert ti 155
    2010 Surly Long Haul Trucker - Jett 143

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Concord, MA
    Posts
    13,394
    It took me a good 2 months to get used to the Oura. My sitz bones basically were killing me. Basically, I never had another issue with soft tissue pain, though, and suddenly, after the first 2 months passed, my butt got used to the saddle.
    2015 Trek Silque SSL
    Specialized Oura

    2011 Guru Praemio
    Specialized Oura
    2017 Specialized Ariel Sport

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    1,973
    I had the Oura on the old bike Crankin- now I have a Ruby saddle, which has less padding. On my first Ruby bike I had to get rid of the Lithia saddle immediately due to soft tissue pressure- I had been using the Jett. I'll give it a little more time before I decide if I need to go back to the Oura.
    2016 Specialized Ruby Comp disc - Ruby Expert ti 155
    2010 Surly Long Haul Trucker - Jett 143

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Eden View Post
    Nandy - I live in Seattle where Rodriguez bikes is. He's a 650 evangelist… He tries to put everyone on the things, even people who are fairly tall. You think we've drunk the cool aid, well yours is just a different flavor. Some of us are actually built right for the way small bikes with bigger wheels fit. I'm also like Crankin. I've small feet and proportionally longer legs for my height. I've never had issues with stand over - not even in the bad old days when bikes had straight top tubes and the smallest thing available was equivalent to todays 49cm. If they work for you, that's great, but not every smaller person suffers if they don't have them.

    I have and have used both wheel sizes. In my basement I currently have a 650 ti bike that I use as my all weather commuter and a nice carbon Amira that is has 700c wheels. Neither is any more or less comfortable than the other and neither handles much different from the other. Granted there are too many differences to attribute it to just one thing, but I have ridden both with a power meter and can definitely generate more power with the position I have on the Specialized than on the ti bike. It is a pain in the rear to get rims, tubes and especially tires, these days for the 650 wheel set - the choices are very limited and unless I have the time to special order and wait sometimes months, I usually end up with whatever is available rather than having a choice and even if I wait the choices are very limited. I have 0, zip, no toe overlap on my 700c bike. If you want to get ironic, the bike I have with the smallest wheels is the only one that I have toe overlap on - it's a kid sized cross bike that has 24" wheels. I can't put a front fender on that one as it hits my foot with even a very slight turn of the front wheel.

    As far as handling goes - I don't get the shimmies and I don't think my bikes feel twitchy. I have short arms, so I do have a fairly short stem - that goes for both the 650 and 700c bikes, *but*, I've certainly never ever had any problems keeping enough weight on the front wheel, so I don't have any squirrely handling. If anything, just because of my body shape and proportions I don't have as much weight as I'd like on the rear wheel.
    Rodriguez doesn't have unusual opinions, they just write them down better than most, backed up with good data and anecdotes (like, "a lot of small 700c bikes get returned to us for fit and handling problems"). They've been in the industry and making bikes for a long time, and they do repeatedly emphasize that they'll make small bikes in whatever wheel size someone wants. Personally, I love older bikes with flat top tubes, like Terry style bikes. I like to be able to have the same ride quality 5'10" people get, and it doesn't feel like I'm steering a truck and small wheels save tons of weight. You're right 650c isn't a huge difference, only 8%, but it does help. Here's my bike next to my husband's (if the photo upload works). My tt is pretty much at the height of his 700cs, if my bike had those wheels the tt would be at a ridiculous angle and give me back pain. 650cs give my bike normal proportions. I'm not totally against 700cs, ease of availability is definitely an important factor, I'm just surprised at how much hate I'm getting for it. Is this the official Specialized fanclub or something? No discussion allowed? Sorry, I must be drowning in koolaid, all my lived experience is irrelevant. Real welcoming forum here... Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	17955 That old Olmo has 24" wheels, and looks really really good!

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    1,973
    Nandy,

    Internet forums are notoriously difficult avenues for communication some times, and I hope you continue to visit and share your experience and ideas. I think everyone was sharing their own experiences and even though that might not be the experience you've had.

    In this case, several posters have noted that production small frame bikes with 700 wheels have worked for them. The Specialized Ruby works for me, but Trek, Giant and Cannondale bikes were not as good a fit for my size, proportions and the type of riding I do. After 5 years and 25,000 miles of feeling comfortable and happy on a Ruby, I still tried the other bikes and they didn't work for me as well. I also never had a problem with toe overlap or handling. I bought the bikes I could afford, and they've served me well.
    2016 Specialized Ruby Comp disc - Ruby Expert ti 155
    2010 Surly Long Haul Trucker - Jett 143

  10. #25
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    northern Virginia
    Posts
    5,897
    There are other threads here where people talk about having toe overlap and whether or not it causes problems for them. Ultimately bike fit is just a personal thing, so the problems and solutions for one person might not be problems or solutions for others.

    Years ago I had problems with hand pain with my old road bike. I thought I needed different gloves but couldn't find any with padding in the spot that hurt. Then one day I went in for a new saddle fitting and the LBS fit guy watched me pedal for a minute on the indoor trainer, then walked over and adjusted the tilt on my handlebars. And just like that my hand problems were solved. Now I can ride without any gloves. That's the reason I noticed your handlebars, AZ, but as long as they're comfortable for you that's all that matters.

    Last month a guy in my club was telling me about the retul fitting he had done. He's using the data to set up a new bike now. It sounded pretty impressive.

    - Gray 2010 carbon WSD road bike, Rivet Independence saddle
    - Red hardtail 26" aluminum mountain bike, Bontrager Evoke WSD saddle
    - Royal blue 2018 aluminum gravel bike, Rivet Pearl saddle

    Gone but not forgotten:
    - Silver 2003 aluminum road bike
    - Two awesome worn out Juliana saddles

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    WA State
    Posts
    4,364
    Quote Originally Posted by Nandy View Post
    There are compromises, it can just be hard to realize it if you've never had the opportunity to ride a proportional bike, because the big names have been pushing 700s on everyone for so long just to save on production costs.
    Sorry, but look, I just find this and your first post (you poor thing with all of your terrible toe overlap….) extremely patronizing, as if the OP and other folks here who don't think 650's are the only option are just dummies who need a pat on the head and a lesson because we don't know any better….. Maybe you didn't mean to come across like that, but it's how I "heard" it and that's what I'm reacting to. I did not hear anything as innocuous as you like your 650c wheel bike and that it's an option.

    I've decades of riding and many 100's of thousand of miles in on a variety of bikes and I've heard often enough that I MUST have 650's or I'm making a terrible compromise and I'm just stupid to not realize it. Bike fit is so individual. Great that it works for you, but lots of us have tried out, ridden and even own all sorts of bikes. I don't feel like big companies have PUSHED 700c wheels on me, but rather that they've given me the opportunity to have a bike that fits and handles well that uses them.

    I own and ride a bike built around 650's and one built around 700's. Both have been professional fit to me. I've ridden them consistently and for long distances. I'm not talking about a comparison based on a test ride on hastily fit floor model or other people's opinions of whether or not my geometry can possibly work. I have real world experience and can compare the two objectively for myself and from that experience I can say that for my body type, it is not a compromise to have larger wheels on my smaller bike.
    Last edited by Eden; 02-01-2016 at 07:51 PM.
    "Sharing the road means getting along, not getting ahead" - 1994 Washington State Driver's Guide

    visit my flickr stream http://flic.kr/ps/MMu5N

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    california
    Posts
    1,227
    beautiful bike azfiddle!!!! and you didn't even have to wait too long to have a new bike for mt lemmon


    Quote Originally Posted by azfiddle View Post
    Internet forums are notoriously difficult avenues for communication some times, and I hope you continue to visit and share your experience and ideas. I think everyone was sharing their own experiences and even though that might not be the experience you've had.
    +1….plus I like your spirit nandy

    …..and in most cases caution and common sense are all that is required to deal with some toe overlap.

    A good framebuilder, like rodriguez or another seattle builder bill davidson, will design a frame to place the rider in a position where they can pedal with maximum efficiency and to handle in the best possible way. If the result of that design is toe overlap then a person just needs to learn how to deal with it in tight turns……so I’d say it’s neither a design fault on a well fitted frame nor a problem.......well and maybe needing more concentration on a fixie
    ‘The negative feelings we all have can be addictive…just as the positive…it’s up to
    us to decide which ones we want to choose and feed”… Pema Chodron

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    1,632
    Quote Originally Posted by Nandy View Post
    I'm just surprised at how much hate I'm getting for it.
    I was reading this thread and I will second Eden that you came across as patronizing. There are many women in this forum who ride many thousands of miles per year and race, have various custom bikes and, like Eden, can judge for themselves what works and doesn't. Fit is very personal and what works well for you might not work for others.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    19
    Fit is a personal thing, but math is math. If I had a dime for every time some tall bike bro patronizes me with "but have you tried 700c bikes? Why do you have to be so picky and prefer comfortable, proportional bikes? Think of the big brand's profit margins", I could actually afford all these custom bikes, though I'd much rather have some quality production options. Loads of women are talking about this (here's just one I read today: http://bicycletimesmag.com/opinion-if-the-sock-fits/), and I was hoping there'd be a little bit of conversation about this on a women's centered forum, but I guess not. I'm no stranger to unfriendly forums, but I don't feel like this place is a good fit anyway - like modern bike marketing! Ha. Anyway, I probably won't be back unless I get really bored in a few weeks, so I'd say "see you around", but I probably won't because there doesn't seem to be any active members within 500 miles of my home. Peace.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    central NY
    Posts
    402
    I'm actually just down the Thruway from you.

    Quite frankly, I would love a good discussion on wheel size. I just think it should be its own thread. azfiddle got a new bike and wanted to share the good news with everyone. I'm pretty sure we would all like to wish her well with it.

 

 

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