Stupid Kids . . . I know they stole our bikes but . . .

[goldfinch]

The other half of it though, is that while a felony conviction will have way more long term consequences, they're also way more likely to serve jail time for a misdemeanor. That's assuming this is their first conviction.

Processing felons is such an expensive proposition that most first-time non-violent offenders get probation. But they'll be saddled with such a stigma, probably won't be able to get a job, can't vote until they're off paper (or in some states, for the rest of their lives), may be kicked out of their residence, etc., etc., that the only thing they're likely to "learn" is (greater) contempt for authority. Someone convicted of misdemeanor theft is likely to serve a short time in the county lockup, usually with more suspended on condition they stay out of trouble ... more likely to be a learning experience IMO.



I don't think the OP was talking about "forgiveness" or letting anyone walk. Her hesitation has to do with a felony charge for a property crime, which is a sentiment I share (provided these people aren't career thieves).

I so agree with this. We over punish felonies. People's lives end up ruined forever, with no way to rehabilitate themselves.

[kris7047th]

So they get off the hook with this and then move on up to stealing what? Cars? Make them pay now and do them a favor. They need to learn that if you play stupid games .. you win stupid prizes.

[Jolt]

So they get off the hook with this and then move on up to stealing what? Cars? Make them pay now and do them a favor. They need to learn that if you play stupid games .. you win stupid prizes.

I don't think anybody was suggesting they should get off the hook, it was more that some people were concerned about a felony conviction making it hard for these kids to (hopefully) become productive members of society after serving the punishment for their crime and learning their lesson.

[indysteel]

Again, I think it's worth stressing that unless these "kids" are treated as adults for prosecution purposes, they won't be convicted of a felony, or a misdemeanor for that matter. The treatment for juvenile offenders is different than it is for adults (or juveniles treated as adults). Typcially, terms like "felony" and "conviction" have no meaning within a state juvenile justice program. I don't know Minnesota's system specifically, but it seems to me that the outcome in this case may hinge more on whether the kids are transferred into adult court. Of course, there still be serious ramifications for a juvenile who commits the equivalent of a felony, but many of the concern expressed in this thread about the longlasting effect of convicting a teen with a felony conviction is the very reason that juveniles are treated differently in the first place.

[OakLeaf]

Are they juveniles? I don't think the OP said they were.

[Skippyak]

In the US "kid" as a term for a young person is totally overused. kid to me is a minor.

[Veronica]

We're in our forties and my in laws still refer to us as "the kids".

Personally, I have little sympathy for those who commit crimes - no matter what the age. We live in an area that goes through periods of burglaries - many of which are drug motivated. Our school was vandalized last week; four classrooms broken into. Many items destroyed, and a few things stolen. Imagine explaining to first and second graders why they can't have school in their regular room? Probably done by kids, p!ssed off at society and the educational system. You can only help those who want help and are willing to change.

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

In the US "kid" as a term for a young person is totally overused. kid to me is a minor.

I don't think it's solely in the USA. I don't know much Italian, but one thing I hear all the time is "ragazzi" being applied to adults who are young or just young at heart.

[indysteel]

Are they juveniles? I don't think the OP said they were.

That's what I took her to mean when she said "kid." But if she was using it more generically, then nevermind. I typically only use the word kid to refer to minors. Perhaps the OP can clarify.

ETA: The way she referred to them as "stupid kids," coupled with the suggestion that they likely didn't know the value of what they stole (because they are young, perhaps) led me to believe that we are, in fact, talking about minors. But again, perhaps she can clarify.

[shootingstar]

Since we do have several lawyers in TE forum, then minor must be a legal definition in the U.S., an age benchmark.

Anyway these teenagers (since we don't know their ages) do need to have charge laid whatever it may be in the end, and understand the consequences.

[indysteel]

Since we do have several lawyers in TE forum, then minor must be a legal definition in the U.S., an age benchmark.

Anyway these teenagers (since we don't know their ages) do need to have charge laid whatever it may be in the end, and understand the consequences.

The age of majority differs from state to state, but the majority of states set it at 18. The age at which a child may be transferred into the adult criminal system also differs from state to state. I think many set it at 14. Again, this subject may be a needless tangent if the "kids" are not truly kids but young adults.

[OakLeaf]

Yeah, I guess in my usage and that of most people I know, there isn't a bright line age cut-off for who we'd call "kids," but I would say anyone under 25, particularly when they're doing stupid and criminal stuff. I think the term does have a more negative connotation than ragazzi does in Italian. (But, doesn't everyone say "college kids?" The vast majority of college students are over 18. But anyway.)

I just want to say one more thing ... if without any more information than has been posted in this thread, someone has completely written off these people as unsalvageable as human beings, I'm not going to argue about that. Whatev'. But the question of felony vs misdemeanor seems to me analogous to how you want to get rid of something you don't want in the house. Throw it away, fine. But a felony conviction is like flushing someone down the toilet. At best, you pollute the water and wind up with the residues in drinking water and irrigated soil. At worst, it backs up all over your bathroom...

[goldfinch]

Yeah, I guess in my usage and that of most people I know, there isn't a bright line age cut-off for who we'd call "kids," but I would say anyone under 25, particularly when they're doing stupid and criminal stuff. I think the term does have a more negative connotation than ragazzi does in Italian. (But, doesn't everyone say "college kids?" The vast majority of college students are over 18. But anyway.)

I just want to say one more thing ... if without any more information than has been posted in this thread, someone has completely written off these people as unsalvageable as human beings, I'm not going to argue about that. Whatev'. But the question of felony vs misdemeanor seems to me analogous to how you want to get rid of something you don't want in the house. Throw it away, fine. But a felony conviction is like flushing someone down the toilet. At best, you pollute the water and wind up with the residues in drinking water and irrigated soil. At worst, it backs up all over your bathroom...

Thanks for the emphasis of this point.

We have flushed too many people down the toilet in this country. No rehabilitation allowed.

[shootingstar]

Understanding consequences doesn't also mean writing off people as unsalvageable. So rehab is desired, community service, etc.

Far from it. And it is possible for a parent...if they wish to provide support to the delinquent teenager for the good things about the person -- without condoning/approving a criminal act. And theft is wrong, it is not a "game". Just like bullying, etc. I choose the latter behaviour as something so real among teens, which seems so small, inconsequential to some bullies, that it can affect the victim's mental health...to the point of suicide. (Several highly publicized cases in Canada within the past few months.)

So small acts crime or abuse, if left unchecked, can snowball slowly into something bigger over time.

So what should be done for teens so that there won't be a repeat in break 'n enter, theft on a bigger scale or whatever else later?

I was intrigued when my manager hired a lawyer so that her 21 yrs. old son could be defended for a drunk driving charge. Her son..has a full time job and was going to college. So not a baby. He was living at home. This was last year..

Or maybe because I don't have children but after watching my partner deal with his kids...None of them did anything criminal but some major stumbles in judgement errors and living with the consequences. We all have our stories.

[rebeccaC]

A side note for those of you who live in Seattle....the Seattle PD started a twitter feed the beginning of this month for the stolen bikes they have recovered and bikes that have been found/turned in. Having a photo and serial number of your bike is a good idea to help get it back!!

https://twitter.com/GetYourBikeBack