another bike date... he neglected to mention...

[Irulan]

Good luck on the old boyfriend thing, sounds promissing.

speaking of old boyfriend things.... last year I got an email out of the blue from a guy I dated, um, 30 years ago when I was 15 and he was 23. It wasn't the "hey how are ya whacha been up to" kind of thing that surfaces thanks to the internet. It was more " you were my most strongest love and I threw it all away blah blah blah". In fact, he dumped me for my best friend at the time. I guess he forgot that part!! I couldn't' beleive it, I felt so invaded! It was NOT a chatty hello. I got really pissed off and told the guy in no uncertain terms not to contact me again, and that our relationship at the time was really inappropriate. In reply, I got something so rude I deleted it after reading the first sentence.

Now, he just sent me a recipe. Can you say BLOCK SENDER????

What's really funny is I am back in touch after all these years with said girlfriend , he's doing it to her too, I guess he's married and all. Jeez. Some people.

[Trekhawk]

speaking of old boyfriend things.... last year I got an email out of the blue from a guy I dated, um, 30 years ago when I was 15 and he was 23. It wasn't the "hey how are ya whacha been up to" kind of thing that surfaces thanks to the internet. It was more " you were my most strongest love and I threw it all away blah blah blah". In fact, he dumped me for my best friend at the time. I guess he forgot that part!! I couldn't' beleive it, I felt so invaded! It was NOT a chatty hello. I got really pissed off and told the guy in no uncertain terms not to contact me again, and that our relationship at the time was really inappropriate. In reply, I got something so rude I deleted it after reading the first sentence.

Ok thats sounds pretty creepy.

[VenusdeVelo]

Maybe its my age, but I am a true believer of old fashion notions of a marriage. I expect a husband to honor, cherish and protect and I expect the wife to respect, support and obey (I don't mean as a servant, but don't be inpertient, disrepectful).

A marriage must be a true partnership to work but sometimes that means one must give up their own goals and aspirations to support those of the spouse. If both are trying to suceed on their own, there is little room to support the other. Of course, every marriage is different and what works for one doesn't work for another. I don't understand where the notion came from that a woman cannot be respected if she chooses to be a mother and keep a good house as oppose to have a career and leave the children with a nanny or at day care. Can't think of a more important job that either spouse can take. God bless the stay at home moms (and dads) out there!!!

Now at my age I don't plan on having a family so I can pursue my career but I would and have put my husband ( or boyfriend) first. But that's just me.

I don't really understand why we have different traits. I think men and women, men and men and women and women in any relationship both have to love, honor, cherish, protect, respect, support (sorry, don't like "obey", it was taken out of my marriage vows). I don't see why there are different traits, I believe we bring these mutually human gifts to relationships, independent of gender. I do believe men and women are different, but I can't generalize. I have also met (many) very emotional men, so I believe it's a matter of finding the person who complements you, and vice-versa. So whether that other person you are looking for is a man or woman, you seek the person who fulfills and lives up to those values and traits that are most important to you. I don't believe you give up your goals and aspirations, I believe you compromise to support each other in meeting those goals and aspirations. It may mean I put things on hold while HB goes to school, or he brings home the paycheck while I take a 3 month sabbatical. It's all unique, but it is definitely a compromise.

I am not a strong believer in the traditional definitions...I believe in the interpretation you as a person bring to a relationship, without having to fulfill a "time-honored" ideal. If you want to be a traditional wife, great. If you want to stay home with kids, great. If my HB stays home with the kids instead and I work, also great. That's the thing about a more modern age - it's getting more accepted. And dare I say it -- about the US, after living in EU, there is more snubbing of non-traditional relationships in some places here. It's just kept quiet. They may tolerate but they don't like it, and often don't talk about it. Not that the ole USA is perfect ....

Enough rambling ... my 2 cents worth for the day...

[bcipam]

The old fashion tradional notion of a relationship and marriage has long since gone out the window what with the 60's and feminism, changing morals, divorce, all the things that affect a relationship. Bottom line, men and women are different. It's in the genes and meant to be. Yes there are women who tend to be more like men (that's me - I tend to see things as a man does and am not as nuturing and supportive as most women would be) and there are men who are effeminate, sensitive, willing to take on non-traditional roles of caretaker, house dad etc.

What a couple does in a relationship is between them but once kids come into the equation compromise is necessary. I don't care which parent agrees to do this, but one should stay home and raise the children. Both men and women are equally good at this although I feel most women are better with babies and dads are better after the child reaches school age. Alot of women that I know have this notion that they have to be successful in business and make lots of money but on the other hand, they also want the traditional trappings of having and raising a family. Not to say it can't be done, but it does take a super person to do it all and I have yet to see it done successfully.

I just wonder when it became a bad thing to want to raise kids and when it became a good thing that women need to work to have a personality or identity. Yes there are women who stay home, raise kids and are isolated from the world but most stay at home moms that I know (my two sisters included) are really on the ball. My sisters manage the home finances, the children's schooling, get involved in outside volunteer activities (mostly though school and church) and know how to put gas in their car. Women who don't choose not to know.

For instance, my roommate's (a man) girlfriend was "bragging" (in my opinion) about not being able to cook or clean. I looked at her and in front of the roommate (yes I was being alittle mean) said, "no one with any intelligence can say they can't cook... they choose not to cook and like someone else do it for them." She had to admit that was true. Hey if you aren't interested you aren't interested!

Anyway, I guess I am rambling. Bottom line, I know how to have a good relationship, but I just not seem to be attracted to the right men. Now obviously I choose to be attractive to the wrong guy... what's up with that?

[Geonz]

My mother was a pretty radical feminist in her era... and shocked and horrified her peers when she said that she believed that women should do what they wanted with their careers, and she wanted to raise a lot of children and do it well. (She had a psych degree.)
She did just that - and raised us all with pretty all-inclusive-ist values. It wasn't hypocrisy. I'm sure no marriage is perfect, either, but there really *was* mutual respect and sacrifice. The obvious question is whether the respect would have been maintained had she wanted to be a physicist instead of my father. Dunno.
Three of my siblings have lasting marriages, too; three of us are stalwartly single. (I maintain that there isn't anybody out there smart enough to keep up with me and dumb enough to put up wtih me... and more importantly I keep forgetting to be unhappy... though it has been a little odd watching how many other single chickies join the bike club and get hitched up pretty quickly.)

[bcipam]

I see folks get hitched up right away as well... at first jealous then I see the relationships for what they are... just not for me. I know that special guy is out there for me and I'm willing to wait (or not be in a relationship at all). Like you I'm happy with my life and don't need a man to make it complete... happy... fulfilled... etc.

Just be happy, don't be desperate, take the time to savor, enjoy and live your own life.

[Crankin]

Interesting opinions. I guess I am always shocked when younger people have ideas that seem more conservative than mine. I think I must be a rare person. I have been happily married for 26 years in a very equal relationship. There's been a lot of give and take on both sides, but what it comes down to is that despite the fact it's 2005, we all have to work very hard to not slip back into traditional roles. That, and the fact that it seems that there are very few people out there who seem emotionally stable and well, "normal." By normal, i don't mean like a nuclear family with 2.5 kids, but mentally healthy. How did we all get so screwed up? I am a litle bit younger than the first wave feminists (52), but I never questioned the fact that i would have a career and raise kids. I was married to a real loser for a short time and decided that I would never put myself in that position again when I remarried. I have always worked, took very short maternity leaves (6 wks. to 4 months) and my kids who are now grown are the most wonderful respectful and non judgemental men you could find. We worked hard for this to happen. I could have never stayed home and I knew it, but my kids were planned and wanted. Daycare didn't harm them a bit. I respect those who stay home a lot, I just knew it wasn't for me. Plus, I wanted my kids to be raised the way I was raised and when I was first married, that took both of our salaries. I know that some feel this is selfish and we should have sacrificed, but we all did well. So you single girls, keep looking. There are men who respect women and want to be equal partners.

[Yasmin]

My mum never worked. Even though dad left (never to be seen again) when I was 2 &1/2yrs mum was always around. No daycare, no outside help. Sounds idyllic? One problem: mum was mentally ill (paranoid schizophrenia). Life was not good. Funny thing is I'm one of the most normal, adjusted people I know. Took quite a few years but I got there.
Guess what I'm saying is that there is no one formula for all family units. Also, individual, internal personalities synthesize their environment in different ways. Think of multiple children in one family. All brought up the same way...all have different experiences of their family unit.
Basic fundamentals such as mutual respect, being genuine etc speak volumes no matter what situation you may find yourself in.

[VenusdeVelo]

Amazing to me how intelligent female cyclists are ;-)

I think the tolerance to accept more than one notion of the family is important as we will never get back to 1 ideal, whether conservative or liberal. The world is just to diverse to go back. All we can do is continue to improve the situation on the basis of doing what is right. To think that we adhere to old literal notions is ridiculous to me, I believe we should always in the context of the world re-interpret what the words and ideas mean in today's world. The bible, old testament, whatever works for you, taken at literal word would be absurd to most people. Interpreting what the meaning really is and what it means to daily life is the only way it can live on and be relevant. Change is necessary.

I too know that I probably would not have wanted to stay home with kids but luckily I did choose a husband who would be perfectly suited to do so. Wasn't part of the master plan, it just worked out that way. And I think this maybe has to do with attracting the right men -- the least bit of warning sign that we don't share the right values, they're outta here. You hardly can change someone's beliefs and values, so what you see is what you'll get. So in the right state of mind, I think we do look and should seek out partners who complement rather than duplicate. Sometimes if they duplicate you, you end up with an overage on one side and underage on the other. It's not easy but possible. I was married 1x before, went back into the dating game and married again in my late 30's. So with the benefit of these experiences, I can say you are so much smarter later on...if you get married young, then the best thing is if you change together. Everyone changes, you're not the same person at 40 as you were at 20. Intelligence is a measure of how well we are able to adapt, and I think change is good. Synching it with your significant other is an added challenge, but possible.

*Sigh*, whether we realize it or not, life is always a challenge every day...getting on that bike and going up that hill can be a challenge some days ...

[bcipam]

Really well said.

[bikerchick68]

Holy cow! I have not been able to respond as some glitch disabled me for this site... THANK YOU to Jeff at TE Support for fixing it!

anyway, have been following along and chuckling, empathizing, shaking my head in disbelief (mtbdarby!!! good dog, that guy was nutso!!! good to hear that the renewed relationship is going well again tho!)

soooooooo glad to be back!

[Yasmin]

Nice to have you back, Bickerchick!