Women in Sci-Fi and Fantasy/Game of Thrones

[Irulan]

{may contain spoilers}
I've been working my way through Game of Thrones, and finally am slogging my way through vol 5 Dances with Dragons. I read a section last night that made me uncomfortable in a subtle way and was discussing it with a friend who had commented that she didn't like how women overall were presented in the series, and had quit after #3.

She then pointed me to this analysis,

George RR Martin is Creepy....
Which I am pretty much inclined to agree with. This blog entry brings to light the unspoken that was making me uncomfortable. Scroll down to the female character score card if you want to skip some snarky but spot-on analysis. Imsho.


What really got to me was a scene presented as a rape, then it turns out that it's Asha's "lover" threatening her with a knife, tearing her clothes off, roughing her up and raping her, but since he's the lover, it's really just rough sex that turns passionate, and not real rape. The fact that this man doing the violence is her lover is almost an endnote to the whole thing. Please insert sarcasm here.

I'm not sure that many female authors do any better. From female authors we get wonder women like Ayla ( Earth's Children**. Jeam M Auel) or Phedre` Delauney (Kushiel's Avatar etc, Jaqueline Carey). These authors present strong female characters who do a lot of cool things, but the "amazingness" of these women is hard to take seriously.

I really like the balanced female and male characters in much of Juliet Marillier's book (Sevenwaters, Breidie Chronicles etc) I think she's one of the few fantasy authors who gives equal respect to male and females. Still, in the world of fantasy stories, it's really hard to escape stereotypes of one sort or another.

That blog just kind of blew my mind, and I thought I'd share it here.
There's another blog entry ( different blog) I read that likened Jondalar and Ayla to Ken and Barbie that was pretty funny. I did like that series, for entertainment, aside from the last one which was truly terrible.



** never mind the last one, it was beyond horrible.

[lph]

Very good blog. Good points!

Actually the wonder women fantasy characters are the ones I find the most annoying. They are just unbearably cool and macho and magical and hard-hitting, and I can just hear the author thinking "ok, that'll shut the girls up and keep them happy". Fine when I was 13 and reading Anne McCaffrey, not so fine now. These days I'm happier with the books that don't make a huge deal out of which gender the character is, just write well and bring me in.

I tend a bit more to science fiction type fantasy, but without considering gender, some of my better fantasy reads in recent years have been Robin Hobbs' books, though they're running on a bit now, and The Painted Man.

And His Dark Materials by Pullman. It's why our brave young cat is called Lyra.

[OakLeaf]

I'm a big fan of Nancy Kress, and my guilty pleasure is CJ Cherryh. Mercedes Lackey is an even guiltier pleasure, but at least her more recent books are free of that kind of BS. You're right, it got old a long time ago, and it was never OK.

+1 on His Dark Materials. The only reason I haven't re-read that yet is that I've promised myself I'd re-read Paradise Lost first, and that's what's holding me up.

[KnottedYet]

Terry Pratchett does a good job with female characters.

[lph]

The only reason I haven't re-read that yet is that I've promised myself I'd re-read Paradise Lost first, and that's what's holding me up.

You must be kidding. You have to read like sixteen lines to get to a verb!

I took Paradise Lost along when I hiked the Pyrenees (the HR10, if anyone's interested) to have something small to read that would take a while. It was so impenetrable it made my head spin. Never got through half.

But I did get some inspired letters home out of it "Here on the trail, whereon I did travel, with dark birds around, angels of the sky, swirling tightly, blah-blah-blah" you get the picture

[Veronica]

I have quite enjoyed the series.

The novels take place in "medieval" times. Let's see... in medieval times women were bought and sold at the convenience of the men in their lives. Racism was rampant. Think about the real world pre-Columbus. Anyone different from you was savage and heathen and it wasn't just Europeans who felt that way. The Japanese refused to allow Europeans to land on their islands for like 200 years. That's essentially the kind of world he is creating. To have equity between the sexes and races would not work in his world. And women were pretty much married off as soon as they started menstruating.

Veronica

[NbyNW]

Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series has always been one of my favorites in terms of how male and female characters are portrayed.

They're very human, even as they take on the jobs of deities like the three Fates, Death, and I can't remember who else was in it. I read it a long time ago and waiting for it to come out as an e-book because it keeps coming up in conversation this past year ...

[Irulan]

...medieval times... there is that argument ( and that it's fiction, fantasy etc) but does medieval have to mean that all women are chattel, or victims, young girls being abused, with threats of rape and violence as the only means of "controlling" them? Why not present at least one example of a loving respectful relationship? There were inklings of that but Martin likes to kill his characters off. Medieval - Elanor of Aquitane comes to mind as a real person who may have technically been chattel but had power in her own right without being evil or a warrior.

Ah well, author's perogotive. But a society that's been around for 4000 years to have not progressed beyond a wheel and a trebuchet?
One friend of mine likened GOT to LOTR without the magic. At least in LOTR the few women characters didn't get smacked around

I love everything that CJ Cherryh has done. Anyone ever read Joan Vinge? The Snow Queen etc? Thanks for the other author suggestions.

[lph]

Yes, I don't remember the Snow Queen, but I remember liking it.

[Veronica]

It's all about power, not about love or respect.

I have enjoyed "watching" some of the characters change and deal with their moral dilemmas - Jamie and the Imp in particular. Dany also has issues with trying to change the society which she now controls.

I was thinking about that "rape" scene you referenced. I always figured that particular clan was kind of modeled on the Vikings and being "conquered" was part of their mating ritual - prove you're strong enough to have me, sort of thing. Of course that character was married off, but wasn't even present at her wedding.

Veronica

[Irulan]

V- I agree that some of the character development is interesting. After 4 1/2 books the "power imbalances"'are really wearing on me.

[lph]

Anyone else enjoy Neil Gaiman? I'm a big fan, started with the Sandman graphic novels, but I like his regular novels a lot more. Especially the short stories. And "American Gods" - funnily enough didn't like it at the first reading, slogged through one more time and now it's really grown on me.

Speaking of books I picked up Victoria Hislops "The Island", because we're going to Crete next week. It's set there, and the cover was full of praise and prizes. Gawd, what an awful book. Kept reading for a while out of a vague feeling of curiosity, but the writing is just so puffed-up and and ...trite. Reminds me of Adrian Moles "lo, the majestic vales of Scotland". You're told exactly what every character feels at every point.

My apologies to anyone who may love it...

eta:
found the following review, which was priceless:

"You must pay the rent!" the evil villain roared, twirling his diabolical mustache. He was her landlord, and he was an impatient man.

"But I can't pay the rent!" swooned the beautiful, hapless heroine. She was his tenant. Her breathtaking beauty was matched only by her saintliness. (...)

If this is your idea of a well-written story then you may very well like this book, which read more or less this way for 474 pages."

[OakLeaf]

Another Gaiman fan here, though I've only read a few of his. I really liked American Gods and the sequel Anansi Boys, and I don't know if I've ever laughed out loud at any book more than his collaboration with Pratchett, Good Omens.

Re being mediaeval, I call BS. It's fantasy. That means he can write gender roles and power relationships however he wants. I haven't read any Martin, but I've read way too much fantasy with drawn-out rape scenes obviously intended to titillate, even when the female characters eventually get their revenge.

On Paradise Lost ... Yeah. But I feel like Pullman's work deserves to be fully appreciated, and that means being familiar with his inspiration. All I remember from reading Milton in college is dreaming in iambic pentameter.

[Crankin]

Anyone else here not like sci-fi or fantasy?
I really hate it, and I am an avid reader. It was difficult for me when I was teaching, because so many of the popular YA books were in these genres. I just can't get into all of the "pretend." If I 'm not reading realistic fiction, then it's historical fiction or non-fiction.

[tulip]

Crankin, this thread is all about a topic that doesn't pertain to me, either. But what the heck, I'm glad y'all are having a good time. Carry on, I say!